Logical proof that the biblical God cannot exist

[viscapes]

I was born and raised a Catholic but have recently become an atheist. The following piece of logic was the final nail in the biblical coffin for me. I'd love to know other peoples interpretations of it.

The bible tells us that God is omnipotent, omniscient and all powerful. If this is true, then when terrible crimes are committed (infanticide, torture, sexual crimes etc.) then God was there when they took place, he knew in advance that they were going to take place and he had the power to prevent it. But it happened.

Therefore, either:
1. God is impotent
2. God is evil
3. God does not exist

I can't think of any other exaplanation. Regardless, the bible is clearly wrong.

I've tossed this around in my head for some time and despite trying to resolve it in some way that doesn't convince me that all religion should be discarded as logically impossible I still fail to come up with any other conclusion.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by viscapes

I was born and raised a Catholic but have recently become an atheist. The following piece of logic was the final nail in the biblical coffin for me. I'd love to know other peoples interpretations of it.

The bible tells us that God is omnipotent, omniscient and all powerful. If this is true, then when terrible crimes are committed (infanticide, torture, sexual crimes etc.) then God was there when they took place, he knew in advance that they were going to take place and he had the power to prevent it. But it happened.

Therefore, either:
1. God is impotent
2. God is evil
3. God does not exist

I can't think of any other exaplanation. Regardless, the bible is clearly wrong.

I've tossed this around in my head for some time and despite trying to resolve it in some way that doesn't convince me that all religion should be discarded as logically impossible I still fail to come up with any other conclusion.

Do you want to be convinced otherwise?

[viscapes]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

Do you want to be convinced otherwise?

I want to have a better understanding. If religion didn't exist I would say that my logic is 99.99999% perfect. But I keep asking myself why so many people don't see it this way and wonder what I'm missing.

[fwellers]

A proper reading of the bible does indicate that God is the creator of evil and does indeed do evil.
And you are correct. According to the bible, not one piece of evil that ever happens is done without god's permission.

There are many reasons not to through yourself into full belief of christianity. Just take the bible for what it is, a book written by ancient men, some of them are wise and there is truth to be gleaned from it, but it is not the be all and end all absolute word of god as christianity would have you believe.

[pianoperformer]

Totally agreed.

However, just because there is not a personal god who is omnipotent doesn't mean there is no god at all.

That is, that's why I subscribe to the non-duality perspective as discussed quite frequently around here.

So, just because there is no personal god, doesn't necessarily mean that something did not create everything, or that there is no afterlife. There may very well be some intelligence, or at least consciousness, responsible for creating everything.

But yes, the idea of a personal god is rather nonsensical.

[javed]

Good and evil has been PERMITTED by God.
And he has given the CHOICE to human beings.
Cruel acts are choice of human beings, as God has given us free WILL, it is not the DESIRE of God.

So God can not be blamed for cruel acts of human beings.
If anything, you can blame God why he has given free WILL to human beings.

It is a very tricky issue, but if God had to dictate his WILL, then there was no point in creating human beings. Pre-programmed Robots would have been a better option.

[Steve Pavlina]

Another possibility is that God simply wants to stimulate growth.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by javed

Good and evil has been PERMITTED by God.
And he has given the CHOICE to human beings.
Cruel acts are choice of human beings, as God has given us free WILL, it is not the DESIRE of God.

So God can not be blamed for cruel acts of human beings.
If anything, you can blame God why he has given free WILL to human beings.

It is a very tricky issue, but if God had to dictate his WILL, then there was no point in creating human beings. Pre-programmed Robots would have been a better option.

Most of the pain in the world is caused by human beings. Even many diseases were created by man and many people with diseases could be cured if it weren't for the greed of men. I think "God" or the "creator" let's it happen, but doesn't wish it to happen.

[pianoperformer]

javed, is your god omniscient and omnipotent?

If so, then he has the power and the knowledge to stop evil from happening. If nothing else, he could stop a particular person from being born, if we would see how bad this person would be. He could only have those people be born who would be loving, selfless, etc—basically anyone who would promote world peace.

In fact, why did he create anything in the first place? It's like opening a book in which you already know everything that will happen.

[viscapes]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

So, just because there is no personal god, doesn't necessarily mean that something did not create everything, or that there is no afterlife. There may very well be some intelligence, or at least consciousness, responsible for creating everything.

This was my main gripe with Richard Dawkins' "God Delusion", his conclusion that no personal God means no intelligence and no existence beyond death. He uses the phrase "Pantheist" to define someone who believes that there is divinity in the universe and in nature (a divinity which you might even term as "God") but who does not believe in a personal God. I currently reside in this camp. According to Richard Dawkins, Einstein was a Pantheist - that's good enough for me.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by viscapes

I was born and raised a Catholic but have recently become an atheist. The following piece of logic was the final nail in the biblical coffin for me. I'd love to know other peoples interpretations of it.

The bible tells us that God is omnipotent, omniscient and all powerful. If this is true, then when terrible crimes are committed (infanticide, torture, sexual crimes etc.) then God was there when they took place, he knew in advance that they were going to take place and he had the power to prevent it. But it happened.

Therefore, either:
1. God is impotent
2. God is evil
3. God does not exist

I can't think of any other exaplanation. Regardless, the bible is clearly wrong.

I've tossed this around in my head for some time and despite trying to resolve it in some way that doesn't convince me that all religion should be discarded as logically impossible I still fail to come up with any other conclusion.

If you want to make the question even more uncomfortable, use the same logic above to ask about God creating people knowing full well in advance that they'll end up in hell for all of eternity (and yet creating them anyway). The idea of an omnipotent and omniscient god being compatible with the "free will" idea just doesn't work, although trust me, you'll never get a real answer to this question.

[pianoperformer]

viscapes,

Just curious, do you still call yourself an Atheist even though you hold this Pantheist idea?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by viscapes

Therefore, either:
1. God is impotent
2. God is evil
3. God does not exist

4. God exists as the consciousness that is living through everything in the 3d world and wants to experience every experience possible.

[Matthew Shea]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

javed, is your god omniscient and omnipotent?

If so, then he has the power and the knowledge to stop evil from happening. If nothing else, he could stop a particular person from being born, if we would see how bad this person would be. He could only have those people be born who would be loving, selfless, etc—basically anyone who would promote world peace.

In fact, why did he create anything in the first place? It's like opening a book in which you already know everything that will happen.

Free will trumps our desire to see good in our world. Besides, how do you know that "evil" people and actions don't serve a good purpose in some way. Did not Adolf Hitler teach us the depths that prejudice can reach and clearly illustrate the reasons that good people shouldn't think that way? Is it just a coincidence that right after WWII is when the civil rights movement in this country really started to gain traction?

[Matthew Shea]

Originally Posted by viscapes

I want to have a better understanding. If religion didn't exist I would say that my logic is 99.99999% perfect. But I keep asking myself why so many people don't see it this way and wonder what I'm missing.

Paul, it seems to me that your mind is made up and you want to be convinced of the correctness of your argument. As has been mentioned, though, you're forgetting about free will. The same free will that allows you to pursue the best life possible for yourself allows others to do evil. For God to disrupt that evil would both hinder the free will of the souls whose bodies would have committed the evil acts and takes away your free will in the sense that you no longer have a chance to prove your mettle in dealing with the evil acts and making a difference in this world.

The whole point is that this world belongs to us and no one else. It's up to us to take ownership of it and to make it the best world possible. God's not going to interfere either way. There's a potential eternal reward waiting for those who merit it, though.

Finally, if there was no evil and everything was good, you'd have no chance to stand out and prove your worth. Where's the challenge in that?

[Plato]

Have you heard of the "greater good" argument? The existence of evil gives significance to our lives. It makes possible personal growth, and it allows free will to exist in a meaningful sense. Without the ability to choose between good and evil there could be no free will. That would be like living in a padded cell.

However, to be fair, "good" and "evil" require a context to labelled as such. God as a transcendent being has no context so moral good and bad cannot be derived from our knowledge of him, except as revealed in scripture.

It would seem that personal growth is the only clear purpose any of us can have in this world.... whatever personal growth means to you.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Paul, it seems to me that your mind is made up and you want to be convinced of the correctness of your argument. As has been mentioned, though, you're forgetting about free will. The same free will that allows you to pursue the best life possible for yourself allows others to do evil.

Maybe we just think we have free will and it's God's will that is doing everything, including "bad" stuff.

For God to disrupt that evil would both hinder the free will of the souls whose bodies would have committed the evil acts and takes away your free will in the sense that you no longer have a chance to prove your mettle in dealing with the evil acts and making a difference in this world.

The whole point is that this world belongs to us and no one else. It's up to us to take ownership of it and to make it the best world possible. God's not going to interfere either way.

maybe God lives through us and as such the owning of the world is in God's hands. God made us think we have free will and then God gets to experience that - meanwhile God is actually guiding all of us in all acts - even our separation from God is something God gets to experience through us.

There's a potential eternal reward waiting for those who merit it, though.

there's a divine plan in effect at all times - we only get to like it or not and that is not something waiting as a reward, it is now that we need to enter heaven. or you will cross over and be just as clueless, or maybe more so since we thought we can just wait until death to be saved and forgiven and redeemed so to be in heaven after death.

Finally, if there was no evil and everything was good, you'd have no chance to stand out and prove your worth. Where's the challenge in that?

standing out to prove yourself is ego land and not being with god. humbleness is the way to see god working in your life. imho.

[pianoperformer]

Actually, if God is omniscient, there is no potential award, because he already knows who is going to do what. If God is omniscient, free will is illusory.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Actually, if God is omniscient, there is no potential award, because he already knows who is going to do what. If God is omniscient, free will is illusory.

it could be this way - yet we should not act as if we don't have free will...

[Plato]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Maybe we just think we have free will and it's God's will that is doing everything, including "bad" stuff.

Tricky one!

Two different versions of free will:
Compatibilist and Libertarian (not to be confused with the political sense of the word).

The compatibilist definition of free will states that free will is not the ability to choose as an agent independent of prior cause, but as an agent who is not forced to make a certain choice. Libertarians argue that determinism is false and believe we have free will for that reason.

Personally, I would side with compatibilism.