The Universe is Cruel

[seeker5]

Please help me dispel the notion that the Universe is Cruel.

Lately, I've been learning of the enormous involvement the spiritual world has upon people's lives here on Earth. I've been reading on intuition, I've been reading about how the higher self directs people's lives, how a life has a maze created before incarnation so that people reach certain milestone and experiences in their lives, how sometimes people go bankrupt and get hugely depressed so that they can learn the lesson they are supposed to learn during this life.

My problem is that some people live their entire lives in pain, I've seen that in my own family. I've spent most of my life in pain as well, and I've seen so many other lives spent mostly in pain. If the universe and spiritual world has so much power, then all of that points to me to a cruel universe.

In a way, that goes back to why I stopped believing in the all-powerful Christian God when I became an atheist as a teenager. Part of the reason was that I couldn't see any proof. However, a huge part of my shift was it seemed that if God was so powerful, and yet he allowed and created so much misery on Earth, in my family, and in my life, then it would seem to me that he was cruel. Since I couldn't believe in a cruel God, I stopped believing in God. Things became random, thus there was no cruelty, in my mind.

A year ago, I converted myself from atheism to believing in life after death, and in the spiritual world. That made a huge improvement on my outlook, and motivation as I saw myself on Earth to improve my level of consciousness and take my lessons to the next life. However, after adopting that belief, I never really delved that deep into it, nor did I study it much. Now that I've been delving deeper into spiritual stuff this past month, I'm realizing how deeply involved the spiritual world is. Knowing that, and feeling that, and yet seeing how much misery there is in so many people's lives, including my own and in my family's life, it just seems so cruel. A lot of that just to "learn some lessons", and allow consciousness to expand its experiences!

However, the answer for me isn't to go back to not believing in this spiritual world, and the universe because I've seen way too much proof of it now. Seeing the universe as cruel makes life pretty hopeless, so I hope to get this notion dispelled!

ps. I'm going away on a vacation tomorrow for a few weeks. I'm hoping to find a cyber cafe or wifi restaurant during my vacation, but there is a good chance I may not be able to find any given where I'm going. Just letting you know in case you don't see me post any follow up in this thread for a good while.

[Dharma]

Read my post on denial. .define what "a real woman" is right here.

This is what hides the power you're looking for.

The physical world is a mirror. It is feeding back exactly what we put into it.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Read my post on denial. .define what "a real woman" is right here.

Thanks, but I'm really not understanding that post.

The physical world is a mirror. It is feeding back exactly what we put into it.

You mean like subjective reality? Everything happens in the world because of my own thoughts? Is that what you're saying?

[awakentransform]

You might have heard the metaphor about life being a divine play. Think of God as the playright. Your higher self is the actor. Your personality is the role you are playing. While many of the scenes are written, you are free to improvise. However, if you knew you were just acting, it wouldn't be such a real and powerful experience. So we agree to forget that this is not real, for the purpose of fully immersing ourselves in the human experience. We choose different roles each time to have the whole range of experiences.

Only the ego/personality can experience pain and suffering and it is not real. The higher self knows that everything physical is temporary but everything physical has an energy body that does not die. We are all connected and one. Loss is not real. So the more we connect with our higher selves through meditation, the more we can experience its truth and feel peace, joy and love.

Try reading "Journey of Souls" by Michael Newton. Also I recommend all or any of Sanaya Roman's books.

[Steve Pavlina]

The pain/suffering part is largely a result of resisting what's happening in your life.

Imagine playing a computer role-playing game. If you make a mistake and lose all your gold and get kicked out of your castle, do you suffer for it? What if your character gets killed? Do you take it personally? Some people willingly choose to play games where winning is far from guaranteed. They consider it fun.

I remember that when I was arrested once and sitting in a holding cell in jail, I thought to myself, "This is a rather fascinating experience, now isn't it? Never thought you'd end up here, eh?" Even in jail I could observe that this was an interesting turn of events in the game of life.

If you want to stop suffering, don't take your problems so personally. Just because your character experiences a setback doesn't mean you've lost the game. It just means you're having interesting experiences.

Real cruelty would be if the game of life was completely safe for your character (i.e. predictable, dull, and boring). Then there'd be no point in playing.

For the game of life to provide you with learning experiences, it must violate your expectations. This means that whatever you resist, you'll experience, since that's your opportunity for growth. If you resist unfairness for instance, you'll see plenty of it. The unfairness will keep escalating until you can stop resisting it.

Stop resisting, and the game will stop presenting you with more of the same.

For example, I only started attracting wealth when I let go of resisting being broke. When I finally accepted that I could be broke forever and would still be okay, it was as if the simulation of life said, "Ok, you've passed that test. No need for you to be broke anymore. Let's give you some money, so you can learn other, more interesting lessons."

Whenever life seems to disappoint you points to your own resistance.

If you stop and think about it, you may recognize that this is a truly beautiful way for the game of life to work. It conspires to help us grow. It's hard to design a more loving, nurturing universe than this.

[Blueskied]

The universe seems like a jungle
YouTube - Herzog on the obscenity of the jungle
Film director Herzog was in a grumpy mood, i guess.

[The Cloud]

The thing that you see suffering isn't really the person, it's merely the manifestation of an ego. It suffers because it wants to suffer, it needs conflict and strife to exist. The ego is what creates enemies to defeat or to be defeated by, thus creating anger and sadness.

But it is composed entirely of beliefs about what should and shouldn't be, all of which are ultimately false. A belief is just a simplification of a complex universe, and cannot truly encompass reality. But a person is a reality, a truth. Therefore a person isn't their ego, isn't just the culmination of their false beliefs, and so cannot truly suffer. They only appear to do so if they identify themselves as their beliefs. Suffering, in itself, is a belief, and thus not truly real. Suffering comes purely from an individuals perceptions and beliefs being contradicted by a reality that is "cruel" for not conforming to what they think it should be.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

If you want to stop suffering, don't take your problems so personally. Just because your character experiences a setback doesn't mean you've lost the game. It just means you're having interesting experiences.

So ... if you were STILL in jail years later, as the boy-toy of some other inmate, lost your family and dying of a social disease, would you still be so clinically detached?

Characters in computer games don't bleed anything but red pixels. Human suffering is real, not just an amusing diversion.

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Real cruelty would be if the game of life was completely safe for your character (i.e. predictable, dull, and boring). Then there'd be no point in playing.

When I experience safety I find it rather enjoyable and it frees me to do interesting things. Stability doesn't equal boring. It is simply a reliable baseline to strike out and explore from.

In any case, boring people aren't boring because they have a risk free life (no one does, anyway). Boring people are boring because they are incurious.

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Stop resisting, and the game will stop presenting you with more of the same.

Ah yes. You vill submit. Und you vill enjoy.

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

For example, I only started attracting wealth when I let go of resisting being broke. When I finally accepted that I could be broke forever and would still be okay,

Hm. I attracted wealth from the start and have no frigging clue why. It's embarrassing.

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

If you stop and think about it, you may recognize that this is a truly beautiful way for the game of life to work. It conspires to help us grow. It's hard to design a more loving, nurturing universe than this.

Good for you. Carry on.

I will say that in the main, for most people, life isn't a bad deal so long as you don't take it too seriously and make it out to be more than it is. But God help you or yours should you or they fall into an edge case someplace. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Still trying to figure out WTF I was supposed to learn exactly, other than to be less trusting of life -- but it's in the past and I'm living in the moment nonetheless.

I don't know about the universe being loving and nurturing. It's ... efficient. Ruthless. Focused. Beautiful? In an austere way, I suppose. But I imagine you'll tell me that's the universe I've created [sigh].

Do you actually experience the universe as a kind, caring, thoughtful, gentle place? Can I have some of what you're smoking?

--Bob

[coLLege kid07]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Human suffering is real, not just an amusing diversion.

It is to the extent you make it real; or to the mind that is. The more attached or identified you are with something, the more suffering you will experience.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Stability doesn't equal boring.

Again this is what your mind is telling you. Who says the world is stable or that there even is such a thing. Stability is just an illusion like anything else. (Not that it doesn't exist..it just isn't meant to be taken so seriously via. your mind.)

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

other than to be less trusting of life

Maybe because you don't trust yourself.....?

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I don't know about the universe being loving and nurturing. It's ... efficient. Ruthless. Focused. Beautiful? In an austere way, I suppose. But I imagine you'll tell me that's the universe I've created [sigh].

Do you actually experience the universe as a kind, caring, thoughtful, gentle place? Can I have some of what you're smoking?

You are what you create. However resilant and resistant you are to this fact...you will still create and manifest things regardless. So if you feel that all of this is nonsence and everything you're being told is baloney than that is what you will manifest. Try looking at your own behavior objectively and disproving this theory. (*hint *hint you can't=/)

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by coLLege kid07

It is to the extent you make it real; or to the mind that is. The more attached or identified you are with something, the more suffering you will experience.

So ... for example to be attached to your spouse such that your mourn their death is ... unenlightened behavior?

Originally Posted by coLLege kid07

Stability is just an illusion like anything else. (Not that it doesn't exist..it just isn't meant to be taken so seriously via. your mind.)

What, if anything, is supposed to be taken seriously?

Originally Posted by coLLege kid07

Maybe because you don't trust yourself.....?

That's just throw away Pop Psych 101. For life experience to mean anything, it has to result in adjustment of expectations or behaviors. Quite frankly, I trusted myself supremely prior to that situation. I still trust myself more than most people trust themselves. My distrust of life is simply a rational adjustment to observed conditions. And it's not that I'm cowering in a corner. I'm just downsizing unrealistic expectations. Seems healthy enough to me.

Originally Posted by coLLege kid07

You are what you create. However resilient and resistant you are to this fact...you will still create and manifest things regardless. So if you feel that all of this is nonsense and everything you're being told is baloney than that is what you will manifest. Try looking at your own behavior objectively and disproving this theory. (*hint *hint you can't=/)

Nice circular argument.

All mistaken notions have a grain of truth. All notions are, to some extent or other, mistaken. I am just trying to find the grain of truth in this one.

It is, I think, that you have a lot more freedom of choice and power than you think you do. My wife always used to say "there are always options". She used to drive me nuts because she would say it when all the options sucked. Then she would pull another option out of her rectum or someplace and there would be a creative solution. Did she in so doing create an option? More likely she was just open to an option that was already there. Her mind was even better at intuitive leaps than most women. But you could say she created it in the sense that the net effect was the same as if she did. For us, it didn't exist before that.

My basic malfunction with this strident form of LOA is that many, many, many things have happened to me that were good, that I didn't expect or intend; or that, in fact, I expected bad things. And many, many bad things have happened when I did not expect them, or when I fully expected / intended good.

And please don't tell me that I must expect life to be random. I come from a tradition that expects life to be very ordered and purposeful.

Plus, if LOA were straightforwardly true, you would quickly figure it out, likely as a child, and we would have ushered in heaven on earth by now.

You seem to posit a cosmic candy machine with us as the first cause.

Would that it were so.

--Bob

[pianoperformer]

I don't know, I don't see it as loving, or cruel. It just is. I mean, if it were loving, something would need to be the opposite. It just is, and we have to experience a wide array of experiences in order to grow, some of which are very painful. But that's not cruelty. It just is.

I believe in LOA, but not to the extreme. I mean I think we are here for a specific purpose, always to grow, and so if we use LOA to go against that purpose, we will meet resistance. The universe isn't our playground to do whatever we like without consequences. We can manifest things, but only if it doesn't conflict with what we are here to do and learn. So no, I don't think all suffering is created by ourselves. I think it is something we need to overcome though and grow from, and eventually learn to let go of resistance. But is it our own creation? Only as much as we planned it before this life.

Some of it, that is. Other suffering might just be our own creation.

[Alexjstrandberg]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

The pain/suffering part is largely a result of resisting what's happening in your life.

Imagine playing a computer role-playing game. If you make a mistake and lose all your gold and get kicked out of your castle, do you suffer for it? What if your character gets killed? Do you take it personally? Some people willingly choose to play games where winning is far from guaranteed. They consider it fun.

That's pretty funny, I use the same game analogy to explain why we are here, karma, past lives and so on, even before finding this site.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I don't know, I don't see it as loving, or cruel. It just is.

You're right. I tend to take it all too personally.

I embraced the concept that the universe is impersonal quite willingly because it allowed me to get rid of a lot of anger. If God / the universe isn't living up to its end of the (supposed) bargain you can get mightily p_ssed. But if it just is then ... well, there's no throat to choke so you might just as well get over it.

Works for me until someone comes along and says I created it myself, or that God is just trying to teach me something. Then it puts it right back into the realm of striving with an adversary or at least an ally who's either inept or fickle.

--Bob

[coLLege kid07]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

So ... for example to be attached to your spouse such that your mourn their death is ... unenlightened behavior?

No mourning is a natural human response. Attachment the way I'm talking about is the kind that is unhealthy and addictive meaning you can't live without it.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

What, if anything, is supposed to be taken seriously?

Nothing on the level of being is meant to be taken seriously. That is because everything in the world is unstable.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

That's just throw away Pop Psych 101. For life experience to mean anything, it has to result in adjustment of expectations or behaviors.

On the level of the mind this is true...but on the level of being it is not.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I still trust myself more than most people trust themselves. My distrust of life is simply a rational adjustment to observed conditions. I'm just downsizing unrealistic expectations.

If they are observed how am I able to dispute against the statements and agrue against them. Truth has no need for disputing or agruing. It just is. I can say the Earth is round and you can't argue against that because it is truth. Also basically the statements you just stated are judgements and not "observations". Judgements involve your perception and your perception is thereby controlled by the mind.

Discovering your true life's purpose involves going beyond the mind and going beyond thought. It is not meant to be understood.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

It is, I think, that you have a lot more freedom of choice and power.

This reason I'm not arguing against this statement is because there is a grain of truth in it.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

My basic malfunction with this strident form of LOA is that many, many, many things have happened to me that were good, that I didn't expect or intend; or that, in fact, I expected bad things. And many, many bad things have happened when I did not expect them, or when I fully expected / intended good.

You don't have to expect or intend for "good/bad" things to happen....they just do. What you refer to as good or bad is basically the mind labeling and judging a situation as such. There are no good or bad things in the world..they just are.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Plus, if LOA were straightforwardly true, you would quickly figure it out, likely as a child, and we would have ushered in heaven on earth by now.

The mind would think so.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Imagine playing a computer role-playing game. If you make a mistake and lose all your gold and get kicked out of your castle, do you suffer for it? What if your character gets killed? Do you take it personally? Some people willingly choose to play games where winning is far from guaranteed. They consider it fun.

If I'm playing a computer role-playing game, and there is some hardship, I quit. That's because I don't like computer role-playing games, so at the first sign of resistance, I'm outa there. I really don't like playing games where I'm supposed to follow some layed out path written by some computer programmers. Or where I have to search for clues about what the computer programmer wants me to do next so I can get to the next level. I find those games dull and boring.

For the game of life to provide you with learning experiences, it must violate your expectations. This means that whatever you resist, you'll experience,

That seems cruel to me. That the worst thing that you feel can happen to you, will happen to you so you can learn your lessons. Many people don't know how to learn their lesson in life, so they keep experiencing this pain and suffering all their lives. That seems sad.

If you stop and think about it, you may recognize that this is a truly beautiful way for the game of life to work. It conspires to help us grow. It's hard to design a more loving, nurturing universe than this.

Really? It's hard to design a more loving, nurturing universe? I'm surprised at that statement. This game of life is a game where every year 29,350 Americans suffer so much that they decide to call it quits and commit suicide. I could think of a few ways this universe can be more loving and nurturing.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by coLLege kid07

You don't have to expect or intend for "good/bad" things to happen....they just do. What you refer to as good or bad is basically the mind labeling and judging a situation as such. There are no good or bad things in the world..they just are.

(attempting to clear head by vigorous shaking)

The whole point of LOA is to attract what you desire and quit attracting what you don't desire. If you choose to attract some things and not others, then you must at the very least have a priority or hierarchy of needs to decide what and what not to attract. In practice, then, the world is divided in to Preferred and Not Preferred -- perhaps you can handle those labels better than the honest ones. I'll stick with "good" and "bad". Pain? Bad. Pleasure? Good! Og want pleasure!

Now for you to tell me that things will happen whether you attempt to apply LOA or not suggests that perhaps I'm mistaken and you're not an LOA advocate.

At any rate we somehow appear to have blundered into agreeing with each other, since we both have now stated that random things often happen no matter whether you intend them to or not.

It's just as well because Master of the Universe is quite a burden to bear. I used to be a know it all religious a__hole and that was the same kind of deal. Knowing it all is way too much responsibility for a mere mortal. The power to create and destroy worlds with my mind is even worse excess. I am thrilled that I am continent and cognizant and can figure out my income taxes. Simple pleasures are the best!

--Bob

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by seeker5

If I'm playing a computer role-playing game, and there is some hardship, I quit.

LOL ... I'm with you on that one. It's a game.

Originally Posted by seeker5

That seems cruel to me. That the worst thing that you feel can happen to you, will happen to you so you can learn your lessons. Many people don't know how to learn their lesson in life, so they keep experiencing this pain and suffering all their lives. That seems sad.

Because it is. Of course now someone will chime in and say they choose to keep hurting themselves, and this is probably my biggest objection to LOA-related ideas ... here is a person who is suffering and our response is to feel smug because they are dumb or stubborn enough to keep hurting themselves.

And, we must NEVER allow for the UNTHINKABLE possibility that despite the fact that most people today are way too much into victim mentality, there IS such a thing as an innocent victim sometimes.

The extreme example of this is some online tripe I saw once about how some guy obeyed a sudden impulse not to go to work at the World Trade Center on 9/11 and was thus spared. The moral of the story? We must pay attention to God's still small voice. Oh, so the other people weren't holy enough to be warned off that day? It was their own fault, eh?

Argh!

Originally Posted by seeker5

This game of life is a game where every year 29,350 Americans suffer so much that they decide to call it quits and commit suicide. I could think of a few ways this universe can be more loving and nurturing.

Bingo. Let's not disrespect and trivialize human suffering by dismissing it as 100% self-inflicted. Or even mostly.

--Bob