Friendly message to the HARDCORE Christians.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

It's interesting to me because of all the references in the Bible linking God and time...he identifies himself as I AM...

Which is interesting, NightSpirit. Because is this not what you do when you identify yourself?
Do you not say I AM also?

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

What about our shared existences?

If you would watch your thoughts, consistently, something amazing would happen. You would see, that every single thought you have, Reflects itself back into your day to day experience.

This is the symbolic (NOT literal) meaning of the Biblical phrase, "Judge not lest ye be judged."

How is it possible that we create our reality AND at the same time participate with other infinite beings (humans that have forgotton on purpose that they are infinite) ?

To be honest, I don't quite know how this infinite based equation works.
It's part of deciphering what Infinity is. It shows the vastness of what Infinity is.
I don't worry about this.
It's the same as trying to figure out what my Infinite Consciousness is. I can go around and around forever in a circle ending in an infinite regress, trying to figure it out.
Because I am Infinity itself, as you are, and everybody else.

What's important to me is becoming aware of more and more my Beliefs and conversely the quality of my life and if other people want, to let them know how to increase their quality, by becoming aware of belief.

[Lea]

My experiences with various Christian churches is that they do promote segragation between the churches, practices and people. I think it would be great if all clergy/leaders of churches focused more on spreading truth than bashing others to gain new members and to keep current members. If they did so, they might be surprised by the amount of growth they all would experience, in members as well as spiritually. Tolerance Between Differing Beliefs | Ocean Of Perspectives

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Which is interesting, NightSpirit. Because is this not what you do when you identify yourself?
Do you not say I AM also?.

I'm sorry. I wasn't clear. Time as it relates to our existence is interesting.
I assumed you had seen the Moses Movie(I'm Joking) When God was asked by Moses, in the Bible, Whom do I say sent me?, God says "I AM that I AM"
as opposed to the great and mighty god or something like that, which to me indicates a constant state of now, or it could mean I AM that I AM fill in the blank because I AM everything. Or maybe it means both the Now and Infinity.

(We can deny Moses talked to God and made these words up or got some bad shrooms and thought he saw God but we really can't deny Moses.
This is one of those verses in the Bible that invites controversy in the church by being a little mysterious. Doesn't change that I believe in Him but draws me to seek Him.)

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

If you would watch your thoughts, consistently, something amazing would happen. You would see, that every single thought you have, Reflects itself back into your day to day experience.

This is the symbolic (NOT literal) meaning of the Biblical phrase, "Judge not lest ye be judged."

I have already seen that and practiced it myself, for a few years now. Doing this and seeing the results helped me understand the (symbolic if you prefer) meaning of "take no thought for tomorrow". And on why we are going to give an "account for every idle word". And why entertaining a thought of adultery is the same as committing adultery, because our thoughts have power to create.

I have to study the concept of infinity to see if I think it holds water. I personally am not sure. Can you recommend a book the subject?

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

How is it possible that we create our reality AND at the same time participate with other infinite beings (humans that have forgotton on purpose that they are infinite) ?

To be honest, I don't quite know how this infinite based equation works.
It's part of deciphering what Infinity is. It shows the vastness of what Infinity is.
I don't worry about this.

Is it possible that we are infinity and of infinity but also with our own space? Maybe like air bubbles in water with the same elements as water and the ability to blend back into water and be recreated out of water but still with a space while we are bubbles? Don't pick it apart too much, I'm not a chemist or anything, but what do you think?

But on shared existence,{hey if we were bubbles, we could join up and seperate too instead of just blending in and out of the water}....Since you say there is no devil, then I want to understand what you think about evil. So other people's crap doesn't spill over on us unless we attracted it into our lives with our thoughts? Or if it does then it's not crap but what? Just something that's happening?

The worst example I would call evil, stop reading if you don't want bad thoughts, was this man deciding to that a girl of 300-400 marks of time was his girlfriend and wanted her to experience new thing(s) but their relationship ended when she went into infinity but all is well because he didn't being that her parents were good people and all. Sounds like Forrest Gump but I was trying to leave any evil out of it in case some kid reads it. I would have liked to have not attracted that information into my life and that's a thought to try, hear only good things. But if I could have attracted with my thoughts, if we are all infinity, for that not to happen to start with or got over there and changed his belief system to any other one, I don't care what, I would have.

We can talk in vague theory, but in the meantime we are here, and if the only thing we can do it think higher thoughts, don't you see? The thrill of the hunt for new thoughts is still an addiction aka bondage aka lower vibration.

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

What's important to me is becoming aware of more and more my Beliefs and conversely the quality of my life and if other people want, to let them know how to increase their quality, by becoming aware of belief.

Why bother with other people's systems? Is there are reward in there somewhere? If you can't reap evil, can you reap good?

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

interpose a layer of "experts" who decide for you what it means, it gets even worse and becomes ripe for manipulation as well.

If God were communicating by personal revelation we could expect at least the initiated / enlightened to substantially agree on everything [B][B]and to treat each other with love and respect on those points on which they differ.

It's just that God's spokespersons can't agree on what's important .

No one and nothing can stand between you and God. The drivel tells me so.

God didn't call a meeting of spokespersons and pass out cards. Who are these people? Religion is bad and we shouldn't give our power over to anyone else. Ok. But to go from there to the Bible must not be true?

You need to be impressed to believe the Bible is true. But when someone succeeds in Christ, they are deluded by nonsense.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

If God wants to communicate crucial information with grave import to our soul's destiny, then the only way it would happen is if he communicates directly with us..

A personal revelation is everything and that's why I said the Bible could not be understood without the Spirit of God in my last post. The Bible says that Jesus is God come in the flesh, God's son. You can grit your teeth all day long and study until your eyes fall out to try and believe. But when you read those words and your spirit says that they are true, it's then that the Bible starts to make sense and it becomes a Holy book to you. Otherwise it's just a book, about a man that thought he was God and convinced a lot of other people to believe it with some parlor tricks. Do you see, Bob?

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

The Bible purports to show the way to eternal life, as does the church. This is serious business and a serious claim.

But what if you're saying it doesn't and it really does? Your evidence is kinda sketchy.

Have you recieved a personal revelation from God concerning all these claims you are making? Because a personal revelation is a holy thing and I could respect that even if I don't agree.

Because the Bible does claim to show the way, your making counterclaims that the Bible is of minimal importance in seeking God, drivel, full of fluff and fiction, possibly or truly misinterpreted, garbled nonsense, pointless dogma, corrupted and probably polluted and basing that claim on anything else but a personal revelation from God is also serious business.

I just hope your anger isn't over riding your good judgment or you're trying to play chicken with God.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

1. God speaks.
2. Some human vessel writes it down. Let's assume that they hear it right and that absolutely none of their preconceptions pollutes the well at this point. We'll grant you a miracle on that count.
3. I read what is written.
4. I interpret its meaning.
5. I apply it to my life.

If you reflect on all the misunderstandings and distortions that can occur in steps 3 thru 5 you find that this is far from a perfect mechanism

Here are the steps to Heaven in the Bible

Personal revelation IS the perfect mechanism for God to communicate with us.
1. Holy Spirit (aka inward truth, collective conscious) prepares hearts.
2. We hear about Jesus in Bible or someone tells us.
3. God's spirit tells us what we hear about Jesus is true
4. We believe it.
5. God comes in to dwell within us
6. God leads and we follow the rest of our life.Study.
7. Heaven

As far as not being able to get a Bible, you know that the accounts of Jesus written about in the gospels weren't written down until after it happened. People believed in Jesus, people were healed, miracles happened before there was a book about Jesus. So even if we question the accuracy and availabilty of the book , Jesus and the Apostles were going around and doing whatever Jesus wants to do.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

How about it? If the letter kills, why bother with the letter?

The Bible says the 10 commandments and the law of Moses are that perfect set of instructions we are looking for but that we could not follow it perfectly. Hence the term, the letter kills.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

By the way, respect for the sincerity of the beliefs of any person should extent to all people of any faith, even if it is felt they have placed their faith in the wrong concept of God. There is a truth about God and He is more than any of us know and we can only offer an explanation of what proved what we believe to us.

We don’t have an argument that your having faith in my faith or a belief in a belief system is not the same thing as faith in God. The account of our experiences with God are meant to encourage those who haven’t had or don’t know to seek an experience with God of their own.

I think your first para above is great and you make an excellent point.

I would add that if you believe god is something unfathomable and we can never know "him" that makes you agnostic.

Your last paragraph has the tone that sets people off, especially on this forum and other places where there are the so-called new-age spirituality (buddhism is new?) people. You assume to know god and no one else does so it is your purpose to change that. This is the crux of the issue. I find it a violent intention for you to want to change me to your belief.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Groundless

I find it a violent intention for you to want to change me to your belief.

yea, but it's for your own good ! They want to save you from the wrath of their god who will burn your butt in hell if you don't give him the homage he demands. That's a good reason isn't it ????

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Groundless

I would add that if you believe god is something unfathomable and we can never know "him" that makes you agnostic.

Depends on your definition of agonostic. I always thought that meant more like sitting on the fence about whether God exits or not. If my saying that I know Him but I don't know all about Him fits into that word, so be it. There's a common theme all around here, that until we know all about God, we shouldn't believe there is one, and that to me seems a little arrogant or trusting too much in your own mind's ability to comprehend God.

Originally Posted by Groundless

Your last paragraph has the tone that sets people off, especially on this forum and other places where there are the so-called new-age spirituality (buddhism is new?) people. You assume to know god and no one else does so it is your purpose to change that. This is the crux of the issue. I find it a violent intention for you to want to change me to your belief.

What sets people off is the idea that a person can know God or that God has revealed Himself through the person of Jesus, since the only acceptable God is one who does not limit himself in any way. When someone says they know God, whether that's the truth or not, is a matter for the hearer to decide. No one can change another's beliefs to His own, that is a personal decision.

I'm not condemning anyone, nor can I save anyone, just saying that I know the one who can, if they want to check Him out. If not, okay.Why get mad?
I don't get mad when someone posts that they like MDMA, I just decide whether I want to try it or not, which I don't. I guess I'm too trapped by my belief system for that.

Am I perfect and do things always go my way, no. But in praying and seeking to know God through Jesus, I have seen miracles, been used by God to help save people from early death and in another case, avoid spending their life in prison by telling them the names and the intent of the people involved, none of which I knew but recieved this in prayer.

Completely out of the blue, I have been given the exact amount of money, $536, from a person who said it was from God. I didn't know this person, they didn't know know me or anyone I knew, but God had told me he was going to pay for my car repair. The bill had not even been prepared when I recieved the money. And hundreds of other experiences like that. I'm passed a "Hope I've picked the right God" attitude.

If by sharing those experiences with others, they get mad, I don't understand that. I'm not saying, na na na, I know God and you don't. I'm saying this is what I know of God and if someone else knows something else, I want to know that too. But everyone seems to be more busy saying what Christians can't know than saying what they themselves, do know.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by fwellers

yea, but it's for your own good ! They want to save you from the wrath of their god who will burn your butt in hell if you don't give him the homage he demands. That's a good reason isn't it ????

Hell only exists within your belief system, or so I've been told. Somebody made it up to give them a since of justice in the universe. But there is no justice needed, because we create our own evil. And other people are creating their own evil so it's none of our concern what happens to them.

We don't really die, just float over to the universe and meld into the infinite and all the good or evil that we did in this world is no more because it was only a creation of our thoughts and is left behind as we leave our bodies.

This is not a fable but how things really are so do whatever you want, nothing matters anyway.

If I believe that belief system can I stick around, groundless?

[fwellers]

No middle ground ha ? No room for anything except the ABSOLUTE truth of Jesus in the bible and his father's eternal hell, or the sarcastic alternative you present.
Typical christian mentality.
there can be only one, right ? haha.

[Ree]

Here's a link to something I thought would fit well in this thread

Bill Wiese 23 minutes in Hell


I passed by a church yesterday with one of those signs with removable letters out front. They were advertising that they are showing a film titled 23 minutes in hell in church. I looked it up and this is what I found! I don't understand how anyone can really believe this stuff!

[Stormcaller]

Originally Posted by Ree

Here's a link to something I thought would fit well in this thread

Bill Wiese 23 minutes in Hell


I passed by a church yesterday with one of those signs with removable letters out front. They were advertising that they are showing a film titled 23 minutes in hell in church. I looked it up and this is what I found! I don't understand how anyone can really believe this stuff!

OMG! This is ridiculous! What an obvious attempt at frightening people into being "christians".
How can you find god in this way? By being scared? This nut case is trying to traumatize people into becoming "believers".
I don't believe that fear can lead to god. Therefore I don't believe a word this guy says.
If Hell truly did exist, he'll probably be back there again...
Isn't also ironic that the Url to the site has the words "spiritlessons" in it... What a joke! Yeah I'm sure the spirit learns so much from being naively traumatized. Tramatization must surely lead to a wonderful lesson for the spirit.... HA what a fricking joke.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Depends on your definition of agonostic. I always thought that meant more like sitting on the fence about whether God exits or not. If my saying that I know Him but I don't know all about Him fits into that word, so be it. There's a common theme all around here, that until we know all about God, we shouldn't believe there is one, and that to me seems a little arrogant or trusting too much in your own mind's ability to comprehend God.



What sets people off is the idea that a person can know God or that God has revealed Himself through the person of Jesus, since the only acceptable God is one who does not limit himself in any way. When someone says they know God, whether that's the truth or not, is a matter for the hearer to decide. No one can change another's beliefs to His own, that is a personal decision.

I'm not condemning anyone, nor can I save anyone, just saying that I know the one who can, if they want to check Him out. If not, okay.Why get mad?
I don't get mad when someone posts that they like MDMA, I just decide whether I want to try it or not, which I don't. I guess I'm too trapped by my belief system for that.

Am I perfect and do things always go my way, no. But in praying and seeking to know God through Jesus, I have seen miracles, been used by God to help save people from early death and in another case, avoid spending their life in prison by telling them the names and the intent of the people involved, none of which I knew but recieved this in prayer.

Completely out of the blue, I have been given the exact amount of money, $536, from a person who said it was from God. I didn't know this person, they didn't know know me or anyone I knew, but God had told me he was going to pay for my car repair. The bill had not even been prepared when I recieved the money. And hundreds of other experiences like that. I'm passed a "Hope I've picked the right God" attitude.

If by sharing those experiences with others, they get mad, I don't understand that. I'm not saying, na na na, I know God and you don't. I'm saying this is what I know of God and if someone else knows something else, I want to know that too. But everyone seems to be more busy saying what Christians can't know than saying what they themselves, do know.

You explained your position well. Thank you. I see I was mistaken in your trying to put your belief onto others. I respect your beliefs and wish you well.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Ree

Here's a link to something I thought would fit well in this thread

Trying to get people in church that way, with hell, devil and end time warnings, to me, is wrong end first. It was part of the reason I left church for years after my first try and checked out other belief systems.

I ended up back in the Bible reading the booklets from Unity. They take the verse "give the devil no place" literally and don't speak about him at all, as far as I know. Their ministry is built on Romans 8:28 "All things work together for good for them that love God" I don't think this is the full message of the Bible, but it was what I needed then to become grounded in God's love.

Maybe some people are so full of evil, they need to hear about the judgement. I don't know. But I also know these people really believe this and are trying to please God. And they are not trying to just get members or make a show. They believe it applies to them also. They need mercy and prayers.

There are examples of Christian love and ministry also if you care to look for them. Salvation Army, Quakers, Prison Ministries, etc. I would challenge all to not make the same mistake these hell people have by focusing only on the negative.

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

in God's love.

nonsense phrases


I will never understand the need to illustrate religious points with nonsense, I suppose.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by fwellers

No middle ground ha ? No room for anything except the ABSOLUTE truth of Jesus in the bible and his father's eternal hell, or the sarcastic alternative you present.

I'm sorry about the tone. I was tired when I wrote that. But I really do believe that is infinitethoughts' belief system as I understand it.

I believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, and the gate to heaven. However, He said that He has sheep that we know not of. And in another instance, when His disciples wanted to rain down fire on a group that was preaching about Him but was not of their group, He said whoever is not against us is for us.

I'm sure you have heard the "For God so loved the world, He sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" But then the next verse says, "For he sent not His son into the world, not to condemn the world but that through Him the world might be saved."

The Gospel of Christ is not a gospel of condemnation but of peace. But when we really see Jesus and the way He loves and forgives, we can't help but feel a sense of shame and repentance. This is what Jesus said He came for:

Luke 4:18 - The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised

I will use these verses from Romans 8 to explain my position on Hell.

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

37...in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As a gift from God, I have that...so I am not really concerned whether there is a hell or not because I know I am not going there. If I can share this with someone else, if there is a hell, they won't go there either. But I also know that God is merciful and forgiving and not willing that anyone go to Hell.

So in that, if hell is necessary, I trust that He will be fair and just. I think Hell may be necessary with all the evil I see, just as prisons and sometimes even the death penalty are necessary on earth.

What are your thoughts on good and evil, heaven and hell?

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

nonsense phrases


I will never understand the need to illustrate religious points with nonsense, I suppose.

Do you not believe that God loves us or are you taking issue with the way I phrased it?

...become acutely aware of God's love...is that better?

Who is your God and does he ever have a thought about you?

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

I'm sorry about the tone. I was tired when I wrote that. But I really do believe that is infinitethoughts' belief system as I understand it.

I believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, and the gate to heaven. However, He said that He has sheep that we know not of. And in another instance, when His disciples wanted to rain down fire on a group that was preaching about Him but was not of their group, He said whoever is not against us is for us.

I'm sure you have heard the "For God so loved the world, He sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" But then the next verse says, "For he sent not His son into the world, not to condemn the world but that through Him the world might be saved."

The Gospel of Christ is not a gospel of condemnation but of peace. But when we really see Jesus and the way He loves and forgives, we can't help but feel a sense of shame and repentance. This is what Jesus said He came for:

Luke 4:18 - The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised

I will use these verses from Romans 8 to explain my position on Hell.

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

37...in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As a gift from God, I have that...so I am not really concerned whether there is a hell or not because I know I am not going there. If I can share this with someone else, if there is a hell, they won't go there either. But I also know that God is merciful and forgiving and not willing that anyone go to Hell.

So in that, if hell is necessary, I trust that He will be fair and just. I think Hell may be necessary with all the evil I see, just as prisons and sometimes even the death penalty are necessary on earth.

What are your thoughts on good and evil, heaven and hell?

Thanks for the post. I also took a bit of a tone with you. Sorry. As I said, I have little patience for christianity.
What are my thoughts on good and evil and heaven and hell ?

Not too deep actually. I don't think heaven or hell are places. I think they are states of being. I was actually thinking of that this morning on the way to work. I have a hard time with traffic. Driving actually brings out the worst in me. I get very upset inside when dealing with inconsiderate and super slow drivers.
So, I thought, this is hell. As the bible says, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, well, I kind of gnash my teeth during my commute, and of course there is weeping here.
So, when my state of mind is wrong, and I am stuck in time, unaware and unconcsious to the deeper and truer things, then I put myself right in hell.

Heaven, is that state where it is timeless. When self and ego are gone.
So neither are places that we "go to" for eternity, they are just describing states of being, that we can change anytime, as we mature spiritually.

Good and evil are just words to make judgements on things. Talk of good and evil should contain the understanding that the one can't exist without the other, in this world of duality.

My issue with all the judeo christian religions is that they have put reality in a box, ( an inaccurate one at that ), and leave little room for anything else.

Jesus is NOT the only way to salvation. However, the things he points to, selflessness, love, etc... probably are. I think everyone will eventually in their path, get to the point where they have the attributes of Jesus and therefore become like him.
But taking the simplistic view that worshipping him will bring you to a special place when you die, while not worshipping him will bring you to the other place when you die, while it may work for some, doesn't even come close for me.

[Independent Christian]

Infinite Thoughts--ah, to the contrary, a "Christian" shouldn't be believing merely in some man made system but in Jesus Christ himself.

And I'll even cut to the chase by saying that faith in Christ is all for naught if he did not rise from the dead. While we cannot prove this 100% beyond any doubt (none of us were there, for one thing), we can use our minds to discern the evidence and see how it stands.

If someone determines in advance "that's impossible, we've never seen it," then he/she has already decided and chosen to ignore the evidence.

Pavlina went on an anti-Christian/religious rant in late May--a column that caught my attention for the overly broad brushed stroking it was. All believers are minions and all leaders are evil deceivers, according to his article. I find his take to be just as absurd in that extremity. Rather, I agree with him there is immense hypocricy in the name of Christianity--as with any religion.

However, to dismiss it all on those grounds is both simplistic and insincere. Since those are the very things Pavlina supposedly stands against, I have to believe or hope he has deeper determinations for his anti-religious rant.

Instead, I would just ask those who espouse many of his viewpoints to do the very thing he regularly insists--use your own brain, independent of others' dictates, his included.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Independent Christian

Infinite Thoughts--ah, to the contrary, a "Christian" shouldn't be believing merely in some man made system but in Jesus Christ himself.

And I'll even cut to the chase by saying that faith in Christ is all for naught if he did not rise from the dead. While we cannot prove this 100% beyond any doubt (none of us were there, for one thing), we can use our minds to discern the evidence and see how it stands.

If someone determines in advance "that's impossible, we've never seen it," then he/she has already decided and chosen to ignore the evidence.

Pavlina went on an anti-Christian/religious rant in late May--a column that caught my attention for the overly broad brushed stroking it was. All believers are minions and all leaders are evil deceivers, according to his article. I find his take to be just as absurd in that extremity. Rather, I agree with him there is immense hypocricy in the name of Christianity--as with any religion.

However, to dismiss it all on those grounds is both simplistic and insincere. Since those are the very things Pavlina supposedly stands against, I have to believe or hope he has deeper determinations for his anti-religious rant.

Instead, I would just ask those who espouse many of his viewpoints to do the very thing he regularly insists--use your own brain, independent of others' dictates, his included.

Using the brain and reasoning, I can find no reason to believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to avoid hell. There is no reasonable proof of even the existence of hell.

[Independent Christian]

Hi, Floyd;

I don't know what "reasonable proof" of the existence of hell you're looking for, since--assuming it's a valid place--anyone who enters there doesn't have the option of coming back to warn everyone. And if someone did have that option, everyone would assume he was hallucinating as part of some NDE (Near Death Experience).

I don't know that I consider the Bible to be infallible, so I can't argue on those grounds with absolute certainty. If that's what you're looking for before reconsidering the viewpoints you espouse, then I won't be able to make you think any further.

However, I do believe the Bible has an inherently correct spiritual message (as you seem to as well, at least pertaining to doing good deeds and such). I also have--thru fairly extensive research--determined it to be a book possessing considerable historical backing as well. Perfect? Again, no. But if that's the standard, I'm afraid many, many books--including those written much more recently than the Bible--are going to fall short of such a stringent standard.

I'm assuming here--maybe you're not so stringent as I'm assuming. I'm only stating this as a way of cutting to the chase again.

Having said that, my argument wasn't "for hell," but rather "For Jesus" as who the Bible declares him to be, which is the Son of God.

In that book, (as you may well know) Jesus declares himself to both be in submission to God as well as equated to God (ah, the admittedly difficult concept of the Trinity). I bring this up, though, because he did take "credit" as being divine. In fact, he wasn't crucified for any wrong doings, unlike the thieves beside him, but instead for blasphemy--for claiming deity.

He also said "no one can come to the Father but thru me." There were other similar verses I don't recall the exact verbiage on. Basically, he says you can try and get there thru your own efforts (as you posted recently above, I noticed) or rely on him to have done the work for you.

What about those who never really had a legit chance to listen to and accept the message of salvation thru Christ's death and resurrection? I am not certain, but based on the love I believe God exhibits thru the death of Jesus and other scriptures, I believe his grace reigns in those situations. I just know I am responsible for making my decision to accept or reject his gift of salvation.

It's a "strange" whole set of circumstances, this deal about Jesus. But, like many others in the past who have tried to discredit it but become believers, I've come to do so more over time.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by fwellers

Good and evil are just words to make judgements on things. Talk of good and evil should contain the understanding that the one can't exist without the other, in this world of duality.

Everyone here skirts around this issue. What happens to the people who care nothing about anything spiritual and just live out their whole lives seeing who they can use and hurt? If they are in their own personal hell, what about their victims, women, children, people who had no choice or say in the matter. Don't they have Court TV where you live? Rape some children, get stuck in traffic and you've been to the hell Jesus spoke of? Surely this is not what you mean.

Originally Posted by fwellers

My issue with all the judeo christian religions is that they have put reality in a box, ( an inaccurate one at that ), and leave little room for anything else.

Jesus is NOT the only way to salvation. However, the things he points to, selflessness, love, etc... probably are. I think everyone will eventually in their path, get to the point where they have the attributes of Jesus and therefore become like him.
But taking the simplistic view that worshipping him will bring you to a special place when you die, while not worshipping him will bring you to the other place when you die, while it may work for some, doesn't even come close for me.

There seems to be a pervasive ignorance of what the Bible actually says on these threads.

Knowing God begins with a pureness of heart and a willingness to know the truth. What is causing you to say Jesus is not the only way to salvation and leaving Jesus outside your box of possible Gods?

I agree there is too much emphasis on heaven and hell when Jesus clearly said the kingdom of God is within you and starts now. The act of worship is not to bring you to heaven but in the literal sense from the greek means to "kiss" God, to "kiss" our Father. Worship allows us to feel his presence now and help us follow more closely His Spirit. Heaven is a place we look forward most to because that is when we will see Him face to face. Loving Him and others, doing His will, asking forgiveness if you miss it, the humbleness of that is the kind of worship He wants, the same as our earthly fathers.

Hell is a place created for the devil and his angels and since there will be no evil in heaven, those who chose to use this life for evil will go there also. Worshipping Him or calling Him Lord will not keep someone from hell, as Jesus says, many will say didn't I preach and do miracles in your name,....and I will say to them, depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you. .

The Christian experience and community is broader than the First Baptist Church, although they do a good work. All of us believe that Jesus is the son of God [and there are two instances in the Gospels where the people around Jesus said they heard God himself say it.] I do think some people out of the pureness of their heart may be following Jesus and just not know Him by name yet.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Independent Christian

Hi, Floyd;

I don't know what "reasonable proof" of the existence of hell you're looking for, since--assuming it's a valid place--anyone who enters there doesn't have the option of coming back to warn everyone. And if someone did have that option, everyone would assume he was hallucinating as part of some NDE (Near Death Experience).

Hey IC,
I'm not actually looking for proof of hell. It is not part of my beliefs, and there is no proof of it, so why bother ? Why would I assume it's a valid place ? There is not even enough potential evidence to make that assumption. There's nothing except one mis-translated book.

I don't know that I consider the Bible to be infallible, so I can't argue on those grounds with absolute certainty. If that's what you're looking for before reconsidering the viewpoints you espouse, then I won't be able to make you think any further.

Well the bible certainly isn't infallible. And my viewpoints have a lot of "thought" involved, which is why I don't believe what the bible says about it.

However, I do believe the Bible has an inherently correct spiritual message (as you seem to as well, at least pertaining to doing good deeds and such). I also have--thru fairly extensive research--determined it to be a book possessing considerable historical backing as well. Perfect? Again, no. But if that's the standard, I'm afraid many, many books--including those written much more recently than the Bible--are going to fall short of such a stringent standard.

Some of the very best lies are those mixed with truth. But a thinking man would not be able to reconcile the God of Love with the god of hell. To reconcile those two beings demands one to suspend reason. Why would I ever want to do that ? Why would I ever want to believe a book that asks me to worship such a vengeful hateful god ?

Having said that, my argument wasn't "for hell," but rather "For Jesus" as who the Bible declares him to be, which is the Son of God.

Fair enough. We are all the sons of God. Jesus was an enlightened being, who was able to fully incarnate "God", just as Buddha, and Krishna were.

He also said "no one can come to the Father but thru me." There were other similar verses I don't recall the exact verbiage on. Basically, he says you can try and get there thru your own efforts (as you posted recently above, I noticed) or rely on him to have done the work for you.

That is not to be take literally as christianity has taken it. If that were the case, all the people who never even heard of Jesus could never get to God. Jesus was just pointing out that the way to experience eternity is to deny "self". It's the same most religions teach, with a slightly different flavor.

What about those who never really had a legit chance to listen to and accept the message of salvation thru Christ's death and resurrection? I am not certain, but based on the love I believe God exhibits thru the death of Jesus and other scriptures, I believe his grace reigns in those situations. I just know I am responsible for making my decision to accept or reject his gift of salvation.

Good for you. You allow more than most christians that I have met. Yet you still believe this god maintains an eternal place of torture and keeps people in it for eternity ?
As for your decision to accept or reject his gift, what do you think it is about you that causes you to accept the gift unto eternal salvation, while the next guy rejects it unto eternal torture ? Is it that the next guy is pure evil ? Really think about this one for a minute.

[Independent Christian]

Hey Floyd,

The question of eternal torment--or at least despair (some bible verses seem to indicate the latter more than the former)--is admittedly a tough one. And it's definitely something I've thought on a time or two at least.

In the end, again though--regardless of what separation from God entirely entails (as we'll never know while here on earth, and hopefully won't find out either)--the crucial question for me is "how do I/we make it to the "good" place?"

I do believe we're separated from God in a real sense and need some kind of way to reconciliation. Just as when we fight with a friend or loved one, there's some kind of need for such. But in the case with God, he hasn't done the wrong--we've separated ourselves from his holiness. And I don't believe mere good works can repair that great difference.

If you think about it, assuming we even do just one thing in a day that is opposite his nature, that adds up to a lot of misdeeds! If you live just 30 years, that's now over 10,000 offenses of some kind. Dare I say most of us, at least, commit a lot more than that, especially when you add in the darker thoughts we allow to dwell on (not merely pass thru for a split moment), the envies, hatreds, excessive angers toward others.

Anyway, I referred earlier to the evidence for Jesus and his death and resurrection, but I did not provide any link or thought beyond that. Rather than plagiarize portions, I would like to provide further food for thought on this subject by providing the link in its entirety.

Feel free to read this when time permits. It's a question that I cannot find any other conclusion to than to believe the very thing Christians believe (supposedly)---that Jesus did die and was resurrected from the dead.

Evidence for the Resurrection

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Independent Christian

In the end, again though--regardless of what separation from God entirely entails (as we'll never know while here on earth, and hopefully won't find out either)--the crucial question for me is "how do I/we make it to the "good" place?"

Hey IC,
I assume from that, that you think that when we die here, we go to some place to spend forever and ever ?
I think that's not quite right. We are in eternity now, and when we die, we are still in eternity, but a new set of circumstances. At any time during our life in eternity, we can become more and more conscious, ie.. grow.

The traditional bible understandings are that we are here in time now, and that when we die, we have no more "chances", and our final destination is set in stone, and lasts forever and ever and ever.
I categorically reject that as pure hogwash.

I do believe we're separated from God in a real sense and need some kind of way to reconciliation. Just as when we fight with a friend or loved one, there's some kind of need for such. But in the case with God, he hasn't done the wrong--we've separated ourselves from his holiness. And I don't believe mere good works can repair that great difference.

Yea, as long as we totally identify with our little selves ( our egoic identity ), then we are separated from God, or in other words, separated from our true selves. That's what Jesus was saying. He and God are one, just as we and God are one.
I am coming more and more to actually realize that the whole sin notion is wrong too. We haven't done some evil deed in the face of a holy God that needs reconciling because He is so just, blah blah blah. We just have "missed the mark" because we identify with our egos, and therefore are cut off from knowing and realizing the truth.

If you think about it, assuming we even do just one thing in a day that is opposite his nature, that adds up to a lot of misdeeds! If you live just 30 years, that's now over 10,000 offenses of some kind. Dare I say most of us, at least, commit a lot more than that, especially when you add in the darker thoughts we allow to dwell on (not merely pass thru for a split moment), the envies, hatreds, excessive angers toward others.

Whose keeping score ? Yea maybe there is cause and effect involved ( karma ), but the notion of us doing misdeeds against a personality ( God ), who needs justice, is the wrong way of looking at it IMO. We make mistakes and we learn from them. Eventually, we will all realize the truth, and what our true identity is, and be one with God.


About the link you provided. I have no issues with believing that Jesus was raised from the dead. Stranger things have probably happened. I believe anything can ( and probably does ) happen. It still doesn't mean that there is no way to avoid some eternal separation or hell, without worshipping him. It doesn't follow.

[Remiel]

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ <<< Is this a wall or simply characters from a keyboard ?

I see piano keys lol.


Here's my 2 cents. I believe in the God of the bible. I don't follow any particular denomination and I take issue with the way alot of things are done now in the church. So far though every day God reveals himself to me more and more. I think the way church is done was great back in the early catholic days when very few could read. Today it isn't that way and I think the church needs to change. Its become an organization instead of an organism.

Anyhow... My views on the God of the bible are ones that I consciously think about and question daily. I've seen his hand working in my life and I have no recourse except to believe in him. Well obviously I DO have a choice. What I mean though is I find his truth so self evident to me that I choose to believe in him.

If I had to put into words what I am I would say I'm a follower of Christ. Christian brings about too many negative connotations. I see God as the perfect example of unconditional love through Christ. I strive to make my walk blameless in his eyes. This isn't to say that I strive for perfection, though in a small way I suppose I am. I strive to be all that God has purposed for me to be and to be the best that I can possibly be. Being a follower of Christ is all about unconditional love. Sadly the church seems to miss that point.


@Independent Christian: I think that 10,000 offenses is sortof missing the point. It doesn't matter if its 1 offense or 1 million offenses its still less than perfect. All it takes is the 1 sin to be less than perfect and to separate us from the perfect God. He redeemed us by sending his son to die on the cross for us. What greater act of love is there than to lay down ones life? Not to someone who's a close buddy but for the purpose of allowing us to become close buddies.

@fwellers: With very few exceptions religion wise the consequences of me being wrong about christ are trivial. What about the consequences of you being wrong? Shouldn't you take a second look? Keep in mind I'm not talking about the organized religion of christianity. I'm refering to the God of the bible, Jesus Christ and the fact that Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Salvation is through him alone.

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by Remiel

I've seen his hand working in my life and I have no recourse except to believe in him.

How do you know what can and can not be attributed to God? (without the obvious pointing to the bible, which is problematic for its own reasons)



Either God is Logical, in which your sentence makes no sense because God is a completely contradictory concept (wholely good and wholely evil, doing everything and doing nothing, completely contradictory in every way which makes him ultimately neutral).

Or God is illogical, in which case your sentence makes no sense because he is beyond your comprehension.


If I come off poorly, that is not my intention, but I would genuinely like to know because I think its something that I am completely missing. It's something that to me makes no sense.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Remiel

@fwellers: With very few exceptions religion wise the consequences of me being wrong about christ are trivial. What about the consequences of you being wrong? Shouldn't you take a second look? Keep in mind I'm not talking about the organized religion of christianity. I'm refering to the God of the bible, Jesus Christ and the fact that Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Salvation is through him alone.

That argument is widely used. There is a term for it, although the name escapes me now. I wanted to call it Occams Razor, but that's not it.

Your argument says that the consequences are far worse if I am wrong and you are right, so it's best to assume you are right.

Sorry I can't go there. It doesn't make sense for me to believe something just because of someones imagined consequences.

I have considered christianity. I was in it for years. I even once told Jesus that I would never ever deny him. Well, guess what. I guess I lied. Or did I ? I believe Jesus was enlightnened and has nothing but Love for me. But I know that he nor his God demands worship of me in order to avoid an eternal hell.

[Erebos]

Originally Posted by fwellers

That argument is widely used. There is a term for it, although the name escapes me now. I wanted to call it Occams Razor, but that's not it.

Your argument says that the consequences are far worse if I am wrong and you are right, so it's best to assume you are right.

Sorry I can't go there. It doesn't make sense for me to believe something just because of someones imagined consequences.

I believe the term you're looking for is Pascal's Wager:Better to believe than not to believe since the consequences of the former are more appealing than the latter. The false dichotomy fallacy of the wager and the questionable premises are part of the reason it doesn't hold water.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Erebos

I believe the term you're looking for is Pascal's Wager:Better to believe than not to believe since the consequences of the former are more appealing than the latter. The false dichotomy fallacy of the wager and the questionable premises are part of the reason it doesn't hold water.

Yup, that's the term. Thank you !!

[Remiel]

Actually I'm not saying that you should believe because of that. That is a very poor reason to believe. What I am saying is maybe you should take a deeper look. Anyhow its your choice in life.


Edit: Also I hear the global warming people use this all the time lol. Not saying its a good thing to do I'm just saying that it is something that bears a deeper look.