Friendly message to the HARDCORE Christians.

[ogrekilleat]

Respectully....You guys missed the ENTIRE point of my post.

Actually, it wasn't so much that the point was missed, as that, rather than simply agreeing, as was evidently expected, we're actually disagreeing and debating that assertion, along with several other assertions that have been made during the course of the discussion. Now it's your turn again; now would be a good time to perhaps provide more supporting material for your view.

"Give up religion, it's a trap. Pure and simple" doesn't count, because it's a point that's been challenged, and thus needs additional defense in the form of supporting points.

Re your use of the words "respect[f]ully" and "friendly": I don't think they mean what you think they mean.

Wait...hang on a sec...

Give up religion, it's a trap. Pure and simple.

Ohhhh, that's what you were saying? Now I get it. You're right. *tears up membership card* (j/k)

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

To the christians answering my points....Respectully....You guys missed the ENTIRE point of my post.

Give up religion, it's a trap. Pure and simple.

Now whether you see this remains to be seen.

You have a religion, too, infinitethoughts. Everyone believes in something, even if it's just in themselves.

At the end of the day it's all stories. Including yours. And mine.

You can't prove your story to me, I can't prove mine to you, NightSpirit can't prove hers to either of us. But, we can love and appreciate each other's insights ... anyway.

You seem to think that avoiding all religion is a magic bullet that solves all problems. There are no magic bullets.

--Bob

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by ogrekilleat

Ohhhh, that's what you were saying? Now I get it. You're right. *tears up membership card* (j/k)

Or don't give up religion. Your choice.
Have fun running from the "devil".

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

There are no magic bullets.

--Bob

Sure there is, bob.

Become aware of beliefs.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Sure there is, bob.

Become aware of beliefs.

Heh. Carry on. The cracks in the wall of the fortress will find you eventually.

--Bob

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Sure there is, bob.

Become aware of beliefs.

Very succinctly put. I agree totally. The more aware we are of our thoughts, thought processes, belief systems, the more free we are from being controlled by them.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by i[nfinitethoughts

Try and See..... ....you are simply Believing in a Belief system.

WHICH sect below has the "truth"?
WHICH one do YOU belong to and you "know" has the "truth"?

No one missed your point and you have some valid points that have helped enlighten me greatly as I grappled to understand. I came here for the message you advertised and to find out what I should give up and why.

But you asked a question and it is clear from the tone and the implication that you didn't understand that, while some Christians may have bought in to a belief system out of fear or ignorance, the great majority of them have had an encounter with God, with the great I AM that I AM, the Alpha and Omega, which is close to what you describe as experiencing the viewing our existence with no mental filters. We do see God as greater than our minds and the Bible tells us to "taste and see" that the Lord is good which is the same as you asking us to try and see, and that we should not let strongholds build up in our minds and check our hearts for resistance to the knowledge of the truth in "Blessed be the pure at heart for they shall see God."

Believing in a belief system is harmful but that is not what hardcore Christians have done. I gave up religion a long time ago as it became unnecessary when I encountered God. There are no rules to being a Christian except to love Him and love others as myself and if that's a belief system I guess I don't want to give it up. Do I still have to have rules to live on earth and a set of guidelines if I want to worship with others? And those rules and guidelines can overtake or get between me and God if I let them. But without them, any task or any gathering, even here could turn chaotic.

Yes, I would like to be free of ANY belief system and be entirely one with God because if I was I could walk through walls and walk on water and people would be healed just by touching me or hungry for God just by listening to me. Jesus said I could go that and greater things. But I'm not there yet because I haven't been able to do as the Bible tells me to which is die to myself and the world and be risen in Him.

Would that be the same thing you are telling us, to keep your mind as free as possible to keep ourselves free to experience the essence of God? That is the message God sent me through you and thanks, I will.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by fwellers

Very succinctly put. I agree totally. The more aware we are of our thoughts, thought processes, belief systems, the more free we are from being controlled by them.

I was thinking that if whatever you call God is all consciousness, then awareness would be the way to him. All the problems (I mean, challenges) we have in this life come from a lack of awareness. The more awareness, the more power over this reality.

I'm sure it will be something different tomorrow. But that's my story for now.

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Believing in a belief system is harmful but that is not what hardcore Christians have done. I gave up religion a long time ago as it became unnecessary


that is the message God sent me through you and thanks, I will.

I think is message is aimed at a different audience: the HARDCORE Christian. As you have stated in the quote, you gave up religion. You don't fall in this category anymore. You aren't the Pope is infallible, Gays are evil, Jesus is my lord and savior, listen to my priest/pastor as a master, slave-type. I think his audience is people who probably are not reading these boards because they aren't driven to seek out new ideas and ask questions.


The last part I just added in because I don't know. I find it amazing that people can still anthropomorphize God.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

I was thinking that if whatever you call God is all consciousness, then awareness would be the way to him. All the problems (I mean, challenges) we have in this life come from a lack of awareness. The more awareness, the more power over this reality.

I'm sure it will be something different tomorrow. But that's my story for now.

I think that awareness and consciousness are the same thing. And yea, awareness dissolves illusion. What is left is just awareness. :-)))

[coLLege kid07]

Originally Posted by Angela

My favorite is the


...because it's free of evangelicals.

haha I agree..I think I might convert

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

I think is message is aimed at a different audience: the HARDCORE Christian. As you have stated in the quote, you gave up religion. You don't fall in this category anymore. You aren't the Pope is infallible, Gays are evil, Jesus is my lord and savior, listen to my priest/pastor as a master, slave-type. I think his audience is people who probably are not reading these boards because they aren't driven to seek out new ideas and ask questions..

Then the problem is with infinitethoughts and his labeling of the thread. That is why I asked what His intent was before I replied. Did he really want to know where I found truth and what sect I belonged to and did he really mean to imply that the number of Christian sects indicted the falsehood of worshipping Christ?

Since the posts were making fun of the names of the churches, I expected Him to be more diligent in naming his thread. If he had named his thread "I want to be the liberator of religious nuts who may not know that other religions aka spiritual belief systems exist....the existence of which proves them all false...with the use of sarcastic puns and vague counterposts" then I wouldn't have responded. As he said, it's all in the labels. The label said Christian, which to me does not mean blinded fool any more than it means free spirited thinker. It is one who follows or is trying to follow Christ who, by the way, hated religion also. That's what persecuted and crucified Him and what He came to save us from, to let us know we can all now go to the source, that God is our father and even the very hairs on our head are numbered, and on and on.

Yes, Jesus is my Lord and Savior and I have opinions or "beliefs" (kinda scared to use that word or even "thought" because a thought might lead to a belief and then what) about the Pope and homosexuality and the role of submitting to your pastor or the leader of the sect but you don't really know if I am one or those or not. Obviously you have a belief about what a Christian should believe.

If you mean to imply again that because Jesus is my Lord that I could not also be drawn to Steve's website because of his integrity and accomplishments and sincere desire to help others grow, while at the same time respecting the intent of his heart in areas where we differ, well then, that's another of your beliefs.

I just get the impression that infinitethoughts thinks that I don't understand what a belief system is and how it can influence the way we process new input or thoughts and that awareness of our own can make us less prone to manipulation or of doing things we don't understand but I do understand. I just think he is blind to his own belief system that God could not possibly be trying to speak to the world through Jesus and some people have heard Him and still respond to the label of Christian.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Or don't give up religion. Your choice.
Have fun running from the "devil".

Have you re-labeled the "devil" or "trap" of your thread from belief systems to religion because nobody seems to disagree that religion is evil?

The "devil" runs from Christ. And the "devil" of religion was defeated by Christ.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

If this is the case, why haven't they dropped the labels and recombined as one unified group (with the obvious understanding that the ways in which they worship may be different)?
Why identify yourself with a label if you realize this?

Don't get me wrong. No labels would be better. Jesus said the world would know us by our love and good deeds. There is really only one church (or body of Christ) that is made up of the members who do His will no matter where they gather to worship.

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

If the people running these religions are so smart, why haven't all religions already done that already: budhism, hinduism, islam, chritianity, etc if every religion is just a different path to the same summit?

We have no head of the world's religious people to do this. I'm not trying to sell you an idea, just explaining something. Because what I believe about heaven and hell and the end times, and all that, isn't going to change what's really going to happen, I don't spend a lot of time speculating on that theology. Whatever happens, I am going to be with Him and that's what matters most to me.

What you have just described, I believe, is what the Bible says will happen at the end of the world. A man will appear and take the lead and save us. He will begin by bringing us together to solve all the problems of the world and stop wars. It might start out with something good like, "What causes most war? Religious differences. And at the root of those differences? Beliefs." So to end wars we have to have no beliefs or a set of generic beliefs everyone can agree upon...a worldwide religion. And a one world system with no country divisions or rights.

Anyway, sounds like a good idea until he declares himself to be God since he led us to world peace when no other religion or God himself couldn't (or didn't override our free will to do it). He kills or starves everyone that hasn't opted in and taken the mark for the sake of maintaining peace. And then the end comes when Jesus comes back to finally put an end to all rebellion against God and reveal Himself to the whole world at once.

I know it may seem like a fable or something but every sane person knows this world is coming to an end one day, either by volcanic earthquakes or meteor or the sun exploding (Jesus said all three and more). I mean the Bible may seem unnatural to some but so does the reality of spinning around on a rock suspended in the middle of nowhere.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Have you re-labeled the "devil" or "trap" of your thread from belief systems to religion because nobody seems to disagree that religion is evil?

The "devil" runs from Christ. And the "devil" of religion was defeated by Christ.

Ok. If you want to put it that way.
This fictional character is running from something.....

[ogrekilleat]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Have fun running from the "devil".

Do you assume you know what I believe?

the Pope is infallible, Gays are evil, Jesus is my lord and savior, listen to my priest/pastor as a master, slave-type.

So why is the Society of Friends on the list of denominations, if us hardcore Friends aren't meant to answer? Why not take the time to find out what people really believe before you start trying to get them to give up faith and practices you don't have the first idea about?

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

What you have just described, I believe, is what the Bible says will happen at the end of the world. A man will appear and take the lead and save us. He will begin by bringing us together to solve all the problems of the world and stop wars. It might start out with something good like, "What causes most war? Religious differences. And at the root of those differences? Beliefs." So to end wars we have to have no beliefs or a set of generic beliefs everyone can agree upon...a worldwide religion. And a one world system with no country divisions or rights.

Anyway, sounds like a good idea until he declares himself to be God since he led us to world peace when no other religion or God himself couldn't (or didn't override our free will to do it). He kills or starves everyone that hasn't opted in and taken the mark for the sake of maintaining peace. And then the end comes when Jesus comes back to finally put an end to all rebellion against God and reveal Himself to the whole world at once.

That's the bibles teachings on the anti-christ? In 12 years of religion class, they generally stayed away from the Apocalypse and focused on more morality and such. In general, it seems extremely pessimistic to me, but much of Christianity does to me. The idea of original sin seems like a pretty negative view of human nature. The inability of people to unite unless they are decieved by an anti-christ figure seems pretty negative as well.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

That's the bibles teachings on the anti-christ? .

No, that's just my understanding of the Bible prophecy.

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

In 12 years of religion class, they generally stayed away from the Apocalypse and focused on more morality and such..

So do I. It's good to stick with studying the things we are responsible for and can change. But I think it's more of a warning so we will turn to God if we see this happening or as proof that the Bible is true when it does happen, that God did tell us it was all going to end. This was written over 2000 years ago before science knew the sun or the earth really is dying although common sense should tell you that. Doesn't mean we shouldn't enjoy the earth or take care of it. If we believe our own lives are going to end as well someday, is that pessimistic or realistic...or just a belief system we are trapped within?

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

The inability of people to unite unless they are decieved by an anti-christ figure seems pretty negative as well.

As far as people all coming together, irrespective of our religions, we humans will allow something as unimportant as a person's skin color to give us a good reason to disrespect each other. God teaches us tolerance and love for one another by allowing our differences, even religious differences, to exist. Coming together should not mean that we all have to believe the same thing, even if it's an idea like "There are many ways to God" or "There is only one way to God".

But the ant-christ spirit to homogonize societies or the world into the dominant and correct race or religion or system of non-beliefs is evil and means to interfere with our freedom to choose God. Hitler, the Soviet Union, the Inquistion, the church in England, China all tried to bring order by suppressing differences and free choice.

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

The idea of original sin seems like a pretty negative view of human nature..

I will take my reply to the thread of understanding the tree of good and evil.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

That's the bibles teachings on the anti-christ? In 12 years of religion class, they generally stayed away from the Apocalypse and focused on more morality and such. In general, it seems extremely pessimistic to me, but much of Christianity does to me. The idea of original sin seems like a pretty negative view of human nature. The inability of people to unite unless they are decieved by an anti-christ figure seems pretty negative as well.

There is wide disagreement in Christian circles about "things to come". Premillenialism, Postmillenialism, Amillenialism, Dispensationalism, Hyperdispensationalism, and so on. The detailed prophecies that Nightspirit is talking about are in my view more embellishments in the vein of Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series of novels than from the Bible. Some Christians even believe that the events she discusses happened already and identify whatever Roman emperor presided over the sacking of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem (I forget his name) as the Antichrist (if I recall correctly, that group would be the Christian Reconstructionists).

As an example of all the confusion, there is a verse in the Bible to the effect that "when you see the abomination that causes desolation walking in the temple" you will know the end is nigh. So what is the "abomination that causes desolation"? The Bible never really says. Various interpreters are convinced they know, and they disagree with one another. Vague, ominous statements produce vague, ominous beliefs.

And on it goes ... will we be resurrected bodily or not? Are the dead conscious or in "soul sleep"? When, chronologically, does the thousand year reign of Christ occur, always assuming of course that there will literally be such a reign? (the debate about whether a passage is literal or figurative, and if figurative, what it's a metaphor for, is often crucial in such debates) Will there or will there not be a literal "rapture" in which "true believers" will simply vanish from the earth?

All of this is great fodder for sermons but generates way more heat than light. Some of these teachings are based on single verses or even phrases. Nowhere, in my view, do the teachings of the church become more muddled (and often self-serving) than in the area of prophecy.

This happens even outside the realm of prophecy; most of you have probably heard about the "unpardonable sin" or the "sin unto death" which has been hotly debated for two thousand years as to what it is because although the apostle Paul said there is such a sin he coyly did not mention what it was. This has permitted it to be "identified" through the centuries as whatever bugaboo various teachers most wanted to scare people sh_tless about. Premarital sex, lust, and masturbation are favorites. Which brings you to the whole disagreement about "eternal security of the believer" ... can you lose your salvation? The free will of man vs the sovereignty of God ... Oh, on and on and on it goes ...

--Bob

(among other not-his-proudest-moments, a one-time inmate of a theological cemetery ... uh, seminary).

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Ok. If you want to put it that way.
This fictional character is running from something.....

InfTho,

I am a person that seeks understanding and I do get the concept of allowing our thoughts to just be without judging or labeling them as good or bad and that there is a freedom in this. And that to refrain from judging the events in our lives as either good or bad, to the extent we can, will help keep us in the now and add contentment to our existence. I really do.

But I am trying to get a handle on what you are saying though. Whatever, you want to label it, do you not "believe" that evil exists?

This fictional character or force....flees at the prescence of Christ..when peace comes confusion leaves....when light shines, darkness goes. Because Christ is the son of God that does not prevent Him from being all the other things also.

The Bible says,"resist not evil". "Judge not, be ye also judged". The judgments we make will become our judgment, even if you are judging your own self or thoughts.

Whatever enlightenment or "truth" that can be found in other belief systems can also be found within the teachings of Christ if your eyes are open to it or have no mental filters against the label on it.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

There is wide disagreement in Christian circles about "things to come". Premillenialism, Postmillenialism, Amillenialism, Dispensationalism, Hyperdispensationalism, and so on. The detailed prophecies that Nightspirit is talking about are in my view more embellishments in the vein of Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series of novels than from the Bible. Some Christians even believe that the events she discusses happened already and identify whatever Roman emperor presided over the sacking of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem (I forget his name) as the Antichrist (if I recall correctly, that group would be the Christian Reconstructionists).

As an example of all the confusion, there is a verse in the Bible to the effect that "when you see the abomination that causes desolation walking in the temple" you will know the end is nigh. So what is the "abomination that causes desolation"? The Bible never really says. Various interpreters are convinced they know, and they disagree with one another. Vague, ominous statements produce vague, ominous beliefs.

And on it goes ... will we be resurrected bodily or not? Are the dead conscious or in "soul sleep"? When, chronologically, does the thousand year reign of Christ occur, always assuming of course that there will literally be such a reign? (the debate about whether a passage is literal or figurative, and if figurative, what it's a metaphor for, is often crucial in such debates) Will there or will there not be a literal "rapture" in which "true believers" will simply vanish from the earth?

All of this is great fodder for sermons but generates way more heat than light. Some of these teachings are based on single verses or even phrases. Nowhere, in my view, do the teachings of the church become more muddled (and often self-serving) than in the area of prophecy.

This happens even outside the realm of prophecy; most of you have probably heard about the "unpardonable sin" or the "sin unto death" which has been hotly debated for two thousand years as to what it is because although the apostle Paul said there is such a sin he coyly did not mention what it was. This has permitted it to be "identified" through the centuries as whatever bugaboo various teachers most wanted to scare people sh_tless about. Premarital sex, lust, and masturbation are favorites. Which brings you to the whole disagreement about "eternal security of the believer" ... can you lose your salvation? The free will of man vs the sovereignty of God ... Oh, on and on and on it goes ...

--Bob

(among other not-his-proudest-moments, a one-time inmate of a theological cemetery ... uh, seminary).

There are differences of opinion within the church and the Bible is written in mysterious terms to cause us to seek after Him. And since we are all accountable to God for obeying what we know, then if it's all out there in black and white....well you get the idea. It's His mercy on those who don't want to know and His reward for those who do.

Differences of opinion in the church are not a problem for God. It's not until they start hating each other or judging each other because of those differences that it becomes a problem.

The only way the meaning of the Bible can be understood is through the spirit of God. If someone had faith in a church or a teacher or written words on a page or in something else other than God and it failed them, then good. It was an idol anyway.

Although I study the Bible, I don't concern myself with getting all the theology exactly right especially if my knowing it won't change anything. I have missed the verse that says, "By your complete and correct study of the Bible you will gain entry into Heaven and eternal life."

I'm still working on getting this one right "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." What do you think that means? Do we take a survey? Or call Billy Graham? Or does the whole church need to agree before I can follow the Spirit? Is it something unclear about that to you?

How about, "The letter kills but the spirit gives life." or"He who has ear to hear, let him hear."or "when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." ?

Yes someone can get too wrapped up especially in end time prophecy or whether one can do this or that and still go to heaven or on single verse specks when logs are falling all around them. But if the reason they do is not to understand but to live as close to the edge as possible but still get to heaven, they are wasting their time. His kingdom is now.

So who are you taking issue with? The "church" for deliberately teaching lies? Some self appointed authority standing in the gate that Jesus warned about? Some person who doesn't want to seek God himself but through someone else's understanding? Or at God for being vague and only revealing Himself by His Spirit to someone who wants to know?

Please don't answer me, Bob, but what would that feel like to you, if you do influence someone away from their church or their faith with what you know?

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

And that to refrain from judging the events in our lives as either good or bad, to the extent we can, will help keep us in the now and add contentment to our existence. I really do.

But I am trying to get a handle on what you are saying though. Whatever, you want to label it, do you not "believe" that evil exists?

Hey NightSpirit.
Well this is the way I see it, and this Perspective has solved all problems in my existence.

You mention seeing the importance of staying in the NOW.
--- It's important to realize......that the NOW is ALL THERE IS.

And from this NOW we are generating everything.

The reason why I say this is, if we explore the conventional view of time, vis a vie, that there exists this "flow of time". We find that this is a mis perception.

We are told that there exists a force called the "past" and a force called the "future". And we are at the mercy of these "forces".

Simple examination shows that this '"mighty" force labeled the "past".....is simply memories.

If everyone is generating their existence from the Never ending NOW, then responsibility for "evil" is put on the person, not a fictional character.
.....
.....

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Whatever enlightenment or "truth" that can be found in other belief systems can also be found within the teachings of Christ

This post never said that.
This post emphasized to be Aware of all belief systems.

And regarding, SonoranBob's insistence that I need to practice what I preach. I'd like to point out that I said this on the first page of my post.
So I dunno what his beef is ???

Whats your beef, Bob ?

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Am I exempt?

LOL....
That would be the biggest mistake for me to think that.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

If someone had faith in a church or a teacher or written words on a page or in something else other than God and it failed them, then good. It was an idol anyway.

We're on the same page there. There is even a word for taking the Bible too seriously: Bibliolatry.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Although I study the Bible, I don't concern myself with getting all the theology exactly right especially if my knowing it won't change anything. I have missed the verse that says, "By your complete and correct study of the Bible you will gain entry into Heaven and eternal life."

The Bible purports to show the way to eternal life, as does the church. This is serious business and a serious claim. Yet you say that the Bible's language is mysterious / subject to interpretation, some of it "won't change anything" and that even getting it exactly right isn't crucial. So what's the point of treating the Bible as a holy book? Mind you, I didn't say there is no value to be found within its pages. I'm just saying -- if I have to sift through it to separate fact from fiction, value from fluff, then it is no different than any other book and we shouldn't pretend that it is. And we would learn more from it if we quite thinking it was special in that way.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

I'm still working on getting this one right "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." What do you think that means? Do we take a survey? Or call Billy Graham? Or does the whole church need to agree before I can follow the Spirit?

Personally I'd ask Spinoza rather than Graham. But I digress. To respond to your point, I didn't say that NOTHING in the Bible is crystal clear. Although I don't think we need the Bible to tell us that we are "sons" of whatever spirit leads us. That is sort of self-evident.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

How about, "The letter kills but the spirit gives life."

How about it? If the letter kills, why bother with the letter?

You know, I was taught that the Bible is a superior source of truth because it's all there in black and white. Leaving aside that much of the language is far from clear cut or widely agreed upon even on important points, and granting for the sake of argument that scripture is inspired by God, think of the steps that revelation has to go through:

1. God speaks.
2. Some human vessel writes it down. Let's assume that they hear it right and that absolutely none of their preconceptions pollutes the well at this point. We'll grant you a miracle on that count.
3. I read what is written.
4. I interpret its meaning.
5. I apply it to my life.

If you reflect on all the misunderstandings and distortions that can occur in steps 3 thru 5 you find that this is far from a perfect mechanism. If you consider that through most of human history for most people (3) wasn't possible and interpose a layer of "experts" who decide for you what it means, it gets even worse and becomes ripe for manipulation as well.

(I've been nice and left out the issue of textual criticism: are the manuscripts available today substantially uncorrupted from the originals?).

If God wants to communicate crucial information with grave import to our soul's destiny, then the only way it would happen is if he communicates directly with us. So the Bible as a source document is of minimal importance and personal revelation is everything.

If God were communicating by personal revelation we could expect at least the initiated / enlightened to substantially agree on everything and to treat each other with love and respect on those points on which they differ.

Alas, even if you presume that God does not sweat the small stuff and allows us to believe for example in hell or not, purgatory or not, reincarnation or not, so long as we all can feel the love in the room, so to speak -- well, I am not impressed with the result. Provisionally at least I've had to conclude that God isn't speaking to anyone and that we are all nattering at ourselves.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Yes someone can get too wrapped up especially in end time prophecy or whether one can do this or that and still go to heaven or on single verse specks when logs are falling all around them. But if the reason they do is not to understand but to live as close to the edge as possible but still get to heaven, they are wasting their time. His kingdom is now.

I don't think people are looking for ways to game the system to the degree that you suggest. It certainly isn't my motivation. It's just that God's spokespersons can't agree on what's important and they frequently in my experience lead people into emphasizing irrelevant debates for the purpose of inflating their own egos (and attracting to themselves followers who will support them in their dysfunction). Also -- I don't know about the attitude of your tradition in these matters, but once you say that the Bible is word for word inspired you have the very serious practical problem that you can't filter out obviously garbled or nonsense passages so that you can get at the real meat of things.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

So who are you taking issue with? The "church" for deliberately teaching lies? Some self appointed authority standing in the gate that Jesus warned about? Some person who doesn't want to seek God himself but through someone else's understanding? Or at God for being vague and only revealing Himself by His Spirit to someone who wants to know?

There is enough blame to go around. I would say all of the above. And possibly, I am annoyed at God for NOT revealing Himself to someone who wants to know.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Please don't answer me, Bob, but what would that feel like to you, if you do influence someone away from their church or their faith with what you know?

It would feel like I had atoned for some of my past sins as a religious know it all. Leading people away from pointless dogma is a virtue. That is their only hope for finding God, to get their minds off drivel and to listen to their hearts.

--Bob

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

And regarding, SonoranBob's insistence that I need to practice what I preach. I'd like to point out that I said this on the first page of my post.
So I dunno what his beef is ???

Whats your beef, Bob ?

Um ... I may be having a Senior Moment but I'm not sure what you're referring to. Help me out here.

Thanks,

--Bob

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Heh. Carry on. The cracks in the wall of the fortress will find you eventually.

--Bob

I'm not sure what you implied there, that's all.

(Cause there are two ways of implying it.)

[Stormcaller]

(Claps hands and nods head to Bob's comment)

There are NO magic bullets. Religion is not a magic bullet and NEITHER is avoiding all religion.

What I see with all the Richard Dawkins book advocates is the same as what I see with the Bible advocates. They are both SOO sure they are right and that the other party is wrong. They also believe that they are inherently smarter than the "simple people" who believe the opposite. And that they will be able to feed off their own self-righteousness for all eternity.

Can't you both see your arguments against each other are sometimes arrogant and ignorant?

And don't bore me with Richard Dawkin's theories about why being an Atheist truly is "smarter" than being in a dogmatic religion. I've read the book (and many other books of the same theme before Dawkin's time - that some Dawkin thumpers have never even heard of). And I'm not Dogmatic myself.

Religion has got a bad name because it is a set of beliefs that a large group of people are told to believe without question. This does not always work for everyone, and my suspicion is that it does not work for most. But can't the anti-religious people see that their hate for dogmatic rules and quest for "truth" is based on a similarly biased opinion that all mass beliefs are wrong. "the crowd is wrong" and yet, these anti-religious people all spout off the same old boring information about why the Christian bible is wrong and contradicts itself and yadda yadda. Also... the Dawkins book has some flawed logic on many points he tries to make, and philosophy was my minor in university, so I know logic. Dawkins does not ALWAYS use proper logic. He omits possibilities at the start without mentioning them and runs with the one possibility he wants to prove right against a few other possibilities that are obviously going to lose out against the one possibility he is tryin to make a point of. Also he makes the assumption you should either be atheist or religious (and he later proves his point in the book that it makes more sense to be atheist). This is a flawed assumption right off the bat, because there are more possibilities than being religious or atheist or agnostic (I think those were his three). There is an interesting and relevant quote by Nagarjuna pointing out the flawed logic in Western Logic... I will find the exact quote when I have time.

You have beliefs too whether you know it or not. You can not live without belief... and I don't mean that metaphorically, I mean it physically. It's just a fact. When you are CONSCIOUS (physically) you are creating beliefs from data that your sensory organs are sending you. Because the senses only operate, it’s what you make in your mind and brain (the beliefs you form) about the signals your eyes, ears, nose and skin etc. that matter. This is belief. You can’t go around not believing in belief. Just because you do not trust religion, does not mean you are belief-less.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

I'm not sure what you implied there, that's all.

(Cause there are two ways of implying it.)

Oh, that. It was a response to your assertion that there is a silver bullet. I'm simply saying, you'll find out otherwise eventually.

We all have stories. The stories serve as an approximation of reality, a framework to live by, and a protection against randomness (the wall). But all abstractions are leaky, all perception incomplete / inaccurate (cracks). I've never met anyone with a credible claim that they have life figured out, and for good reason. No one ever has or will. In my view, since we are all tiny, tiny parts of an vast whole, we are (in our present form at least) inherently incapable of perceiving much less accurately assessing reality.

That doesn't mean we can't do better than we have, or that there is no such thing as love or pleasure to make life worth living. But you will never possess all the answers all the time -- you will never slay all your ignorance, never at least in this life.

Christianity in general is an effort to turn life into a set of black and white immutable rules. New thought / new age / etc are an attempt to transcend that, but I don't consider it all that successful, just a bumbling step in what one hopes would be a better direction.

--Bob

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Stormcaller

What I see with all the Richard Dawkins book advocates is the same as what I see with the Bible advocates. ....

Can't you both see your arguments against each other are sometimes arrogant and ignorant?

I may have stepped into this pile of p ... uh, thread without realizing it started with a Dawkins-oriented POV. I don't buy Dawkins either, pretty much for the reasons you state, nor am I an atheist. I am what I would term a "soft agnostic" -- I am pretty sure there is or was a god, just don't know how relevant god is to practical living or how involved he really is, and don't think he has a whole lot of regard for us. He is not the indulgent, glorified human that many make him out to be.

Originally Posted by Stormcaller

But can't the anti-religious people see that their hate for dogmatic rules and quest for "truth" is based on a similarly biased opinion that all mass
beliefs are wrong.

I wouldn't judge a belief based on the number of adherents. Millions of people believing something doesn't make it so ... millions of people not believing something doesn't make it false. Any belief has to be judged on its merits, viz., how well it actually fits with reality as best as can be determined. Most beliefs have some worthwhile nugget of truth within them that can be gleaned for what it's worth. Some have surprising amounts of validity.

I get a little strident with Christianity mainly because it is a widely held belief that generally gets a free ride and badly needs some rigor in its thinking. I get a little strident with it because at least as delivered to me, it so ill-served me and ill-equipped me for life and I have seen this happen to others, too.

I'm actually more empathetic to Christianity than your run of the mill axe-grinding atheist because I understand its appeal and its promise from the inside. Quite aways further inside than most people, actually.

Originally Posted by Stormcaller

You have beliefs too whether you know it or not. You can not live without belief... and I don't mean that metaphorically, I mean it physically...Just because you do not trust religion, does not mean you are belief-less.

We are on the same page then.

Avoiding belief is both impossible and not the problem. The challenge is finding beliefs that are reality based and do not limit our growth and potential.

--Bob

[Stormcaller]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcaller
You have beliefs too whether you know it or not. You can not live without belief... and I don't mean that metaphorically, I mean it physically...Just because you do not trust religion, does not mean you are belief-less.

We are on the same page then.

Avoiding belief is both impossible and not the problem. The challenge is finding beliefs that are reality based and do not limit our growth and potential.

--Bob

Oh when I was saying "YOU" are not belief-less, I wasn't really meaning YOU personally (Bob), it was a point I was making to the Dawkins people. (I thought from the start that you and I were on the same page).

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Hey NightSpirit.
Well this is the way I see it, and this Perspective has solved all problems in my existence.

You mention seeing the importance of staying in the NOW.
--- It's important to realize......that the NOW is ALL THERE IS.

And from this NOW we are generating everything.

The reason why I say this is, if we explore the conventional view of time, vis a vie, that there exists this "flow of time". We find that this is a mis perception.

We are told that there exists a force called the "past" and a force called the "future". And we are at the mercy of these "forces".

Simple examination shows that this '"mighty" force labeled the "past".....is simply memories.

If everyone is generating their existence from the Never ending NOW, then responsibility for "evil" is put on the person, not a fictional character.

I understand everything but the last statement. Could you please clarify this? What about our shared existences?

It's interesting to me because of all the references in the Bible linking God and time...he identifies himself as I AM...A thousand years is as a day with God...take no thought for tomorrow...and especially to forgive, which is letting go of the past and how our past "disappears" with Him.

So many links between forgiveness and power or healing. Just thinking that maybe His powers and omniscience come from the fact that He is Now and for the devil to have power over us he has to keep us tied up in the past accusations or condemnations.

I understand that you think it's all symbolism and fables but I'm not asking you to agree just tell me what you know, please. Thanks.