Friendly message to the HARDCORE Christians.

[ogrekilleat]

Respectully....You guys missed the ENTIRE point of my post.

Actually, it wasn't so much that the point was missed, as that, rather than simply agreeing, as was evidently expected, we're actually disagreeing and debating that assertion, along with several other assertions that have been made during the course of the discussion. Now it's your turn again; now would be a good time to perhaps provide more supporting material for your view.

"Give up religion, it's a trap. Pure and simple" doesn't count, because it's a point that's been challenged, and thus needs additional defense in the form of supporting points.

Re your use of the words "respect[f]ully" and "friendly": I don't think they mean what you think they mean.

Wait...hang on a sec...

Give up religion, it's a trap. Pure and simple.

Ohhhh, that's what you were saying? Now I get it. You're right. *tears up membership card* (j/k)

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

To the christians answering my points....Respectully....You guys missed the ENTIRE point of my post.

Give up religion, it's a trap. Pure and simple.

Now whether you see this remains to be seen.

You have a religion, too, infinitethoughts. Everyone believes in something, even if it's just in themselves.

At the end of the day it's all stories. Including yours. And mine.

You can't prove your story to me, I can't prove mine to you, NightSpirit can't prove hers to either of us. But, we can love and appreciate each other's insights ... anyway.

You seem to think that avoiding all religion is a magic bullet that solves all problems. There are no magic bullets.

--Bob

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by ogrekilleat

Ohhhh, that's what you were saying? Now I get it. You're right. *tears up membership card* (j/k)

Or don't give up religion. Your choice.
Have fun running from the "devil".

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

There are no magic bullets.

--Bob

Sure there is, bob.

Become aware of beliefs.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Sure there is, bob.

Become aware of beliefs.

Heh. Carry on. The cracks in the wall of the fortress will find you eventually.

--Bob

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Sure there is, bob.

Become aware of beliefs.

Very succinctly put. I agree totally. The more aware we are of our thoughts, thought processes, belief systems, the more free we are from being controlled by them.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by i[nfinitethoughts

Try and See..... ....you are simply Believing in a Belief system.

WHICH sect below has the "truth"?
WHICH one do YOU belong to and you "know" has the "truth"?

No one missed your point and you have some valid points that have helped enlighten me greatly as I grappled to understand. I came here for the message you advertised and to find out what I should give up and why.

But you asked a question and it is clear from the tone and the implication that you didn't understand that, while some Christians may have bought in to a belief system out of fear or ignorance, the great majority of them have had an encounter with God, with the great I AM that I AM, the Alpha and Omega, which is close to what you describe as experiencing the viewing our existence with no mental filters. We do see God as greater than our minds and the Bible tells us to "taste and see" that the Lord is good which is the same as you asking us to try and see, and that we should not let strongholds build up in our minds and check our hearts for resistance to the knowledge of the truth in "Blessed be the pure at heart for they shall see God."

Believing in a belief system is harmful but that is not what hardcore Christians have done. I gave up religion a long time ago as it became unnecessary when I encountered God. There are no rules to being a Christian except to love Him and love others as myself and if that's a belief system I guess I don't want to give it up. Do I still have to have rules to live on earth and a set of guidelines if I want to worship with others? And those rules and guidelines can overtake or get between me and God if I let them. But without them, any task or any gathering, even here could turn chaotic.

Yes, I would like to be free of ANY belief system and be entirely one with God because if I was I could walk through walls and walk on water and people would be healed just by touching me or hungry for God just by listening to me. Jesus said I could go that and greater things. But I'm not there yet because I haven't been able to do as the Bible tells me to which is die to myself and the world and be risen in Him.

Would that be the same thing you are telling us, to keep your mind as free as possible to keep ourselves free to experience the essence of God? That is the message God sent me through you and thanks, I will.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by fwellers

Very succinctly put. I agree totally. The more aware we are of our thoughts, thought processes, belief systems, the more free we are from being controlled by them.

I was thinking that if whatever you call God is all consciousness, then awareness would be the way to him. All the problems (I mean, challenges) we have in this life come from a lack of awareness. The more awareness, the more power over this reality.

I'm sure it will be something different tomorrow. But that's my story for now.

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Believing in a belief system is harmful but that is not what hardcore Christians have done. I gave up religion a long time ago as it became unnecessary


that is the message God sent me through you and thanks, I will.

I think is message is aimed at a different audience: the HARDCORE Christian. As you have stated in the quote, you gave up religion. You don't fall in this category anymore. You aren't the Pope is infallible, Gays are evil, Jesus is my lord and savior, listen to my priest/pastor as a master, slave-type. I think his audience is people who probably are not reading these boards because they aren't driven to seek out new ideas and ask questions.


The last part I just added in because I don't know. I find it amazing that people can still anthropomorphize God.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

I was thinking that if whatever you call God is all consciousness, then awareness would be the way to him. All the problems (I mean, challenges) we have in this life come from a lack of awareness. The more awareness, the more power over this reality.

I'm sure it will be something different tomorrow. But that's my story for now.

I think that awareness and consciousness are the same thing. And yea, awareness dissolves illusion. What is left is just awareness. :-)))

[coLLege kid07]

Originally Posted by Angela

My favorite is the


...because it's free of evangelicals.

haha I agree..I think I might convert

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

I think is message is aimed at a different audience: the HARDCORE Christian. As you have stated in the quote, you gave up religion. You don't fall in this category anymore. You aren't the Pope is infallible, Gays are evil, Jesus is my lord and savior, listen to my priest/pastor as a master, slave-type. I think his audience is people who probably are not reading these boards because they aren't driven to seek out new ideas and ask questions..

Then the problem is with infinitethoughts and his labeling of the thread. That is why I asked what His intent was before I replied. Did he really want to know where I found truth and what sect I belonged to and did he really mean to imply that the number of Christian sects indicted the falsehood of worshipping Christ?

Since the posts were making fun of the names of the churches, I expected Him to be more diligent in naming his thread. If he had named his thread "I want to be the liberator of religious nuts who may not know that other religions aka spiritual belief systems exist....the existence of which proves them all false...with the use of sarcastic puns and vague counterposts" then I wouldn't have responded. As he said, it's all in the labels. The label said Christian, which to me does not mean blinded fool any more than it means free spirited thinker. It is one who follows or is trying to follow Christ who, by the way, hated religion also. That's what persecuted and crucified Him and what He came to save us from, to let us know we can all now go to the source, that God is our father and even the very hairs on our head are numbered, and on and on.

Yes, Jesus is my Lord and Savior and I have opinions or "beliefs" (kinda scared to use that word or even "thought" because a thought might lead to a belief and then what) about the Pope and homosexuality and the role of submitting to your pastor or the leader of the sect but you don't really know if I am one or those or not. Obviously you have a belief about what a Christian should believe.

If you mean to imply again that because Jesus is my Lord that I could not also be drawn to Steve's website because of his integrity and accomplishments and sincere desire to help others grow, while at the same time respecting the intent of his heart in areas where we differ, well then, that's another of your beliefs.

I just get the impression that infinitethoughts thinks that I don't understand what a belief system is and how it can influence the way we process new input or thoughts and that awareness of our own can make us less prone to manipulation or of doing things we don't understand but I do understand. I just think he is blind to his own belief system that God could not possibly be trying to speak to the world through Jesus and some people have heard Him and still respond to the label of Christian.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Or don't give up religion. Your choice.
Have fun running from the "devil".

Have you re-labeled the "devil" or "trap" of your thread from belief systems to religion because nobody seems to disagree that religion is evil?

The "devil" runs from Christ. And the "devil" of religion was defeated by Christ.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

If this is the case, why haven't they dropped the labels and recombined as one unified group (with the obvious understanding that the ways in which they worship may be different)?
Why identify yourself with a label if you realize this?

Don't get me wrong. No labels would be better. Jesus said the world would know us by our love and good deeds. There is really only one church (or body of Christ) that is made up of the members who do His will no matter where they gather to worship.

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

If the people running these religions are so smart, why haven't all religions already done that already: budhism, hinduism, islam, chritianity, etc if every religion is just a different path to the same summit?

We have no head of the world's religious people to do this. I'm not trying to sell you an idea, just explaining something. Because what I believe about heaven and hell and the end times, and all that, isn't going to change what's really going to happen, I don't spend a lot of time speculating on that theology. Whatever happens, I am going to be with Him and that's what matters most to me.

What you have just described, I believe, is what the Bible says will happen at the end of the world. A man will appear and take the lead and save us. He will begin by bringing us together to solve all the problems of the world and stop wars. It might start out with something good like, "What causes most war? Religious differences. And at the root of those differences? Beliefs." So to end wars we have to have no beliefs or a set of generic beliefs everyone can agree upon...a worldwide religion. And a one world system with no country divisions or rights.

Anyway, sounds like a good idea until he declares himself to be God since he led us to world peace when no other religion or God himself couldn't (or didn't override our free will to do it). He kills or starves everyone that hasn't opted in and taken the mark for the sake of maintaining peace. And then the end comes when Jesus comes back to finally put an end to all rebellion against God and reveal Himself to the whole world at once.

I know it may seem like a fable or something but every sane person knows this world is coming to an end one day, either by volcanic earthquakes or meteor or the sun exploding (Jesus said all three and more). I mean the Bible may seem unnatural to some but so does the reality of spinning around on a rock suspended in the middle of nowhere.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Have you re-labeled the "devil" or "trap" of your thread from belief systems to religion because nobody seems to disagree that religion is evil?

The "devil" runs from Christ. And the "devil" of religion was defeated by Christ.

Ok. If you want to put it that way.
This fictional character is running from something.....

[ogrekilleat]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Have fun running from the "devil".

Do you assume you know what I believe?

the Pope is infallible, Gays are evil, Jesus is my lord and savior, listen to my priest/pastor as a master, slave-type.

So why is the Society of Friends on the list of denominations, if us hardcore Friends aren't meant to answer? Why not take the time to find out what people really believe before you start trying to get them to give up faith and practices you don't have the first idea about?

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

What you have just described, I believe, is what the Bible says will happen at the end of the world. A man will appear and take the lead and save us. He will begin by bringing us together to solve all the problems of the world and stop wars. It might start out with something good like, "What causes most war? Religious differences. And at the root of those differences? Beliefs." So to end wars we have to have no beliefs or a set of generic beliefs everyone can agree upon...a worldwide religion. And a one world system with no country divisions or rights.

Anyway, sounds like a good idea until he declares himself to be God since he led us to world peace when no other religion or God himself couldn't (or didn't override our free will to do it). He kills or starves everyone that hasn't opted in and taken the mark for the sake of maintaining peace. And then the end comes when Jesus comes back to finally put an end to all rebellion against God and reveal Himself to the whole world at once.

That's the bibles teachings on the anti-christ? In 12 years of religion class, they generally stayed away from the Apocalypse and focused on more morality and such. In general, it seems extremely pessimistic to me, but much of Christianity does to me. The idea of original sin seems like a pretty negative view of human nature. The inability of people to unite unless they are decieved by an anti-christ figure seems pretty negative as well.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

That's the bibles teachings on the anti-christ? .

No, that's just my understanding of the Bible prophecy.

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

In 12 years of religion class, they generally stayed away from the Apocalypse and focused on more morality and such..

So do I. It's good to stick with studying the things we are responsible for and can change. But I think it's more of a warning so we will turn to God if we see this happening or as proof that the Bible is true when it does happen, that God did tell us it was all going to end. This was written over 2000 years ago before science knew the sun or the earth really is dying although common sense should tell you that. Doesn't mean we shouldn't enjoy the earth or take care of it. If we believe our own lives are going to end as well someday, is that pessimistic or realistic...or just a belief system we are trapped within?

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

The inability of people to unite unless they are decieved by an anti-christ figure seems pretty negative as well.

As far as people all coming together, irrespective of our religions, we humans will allow something as unimportant as a person's skin color to give us a good reason to disrespect each other. God teaches us tolerance and love for one another by allowing our differences, even religious differences, to exist. Coming together should not mean that we all have to believe the same thing, even if it's an idea like "There are many ways to God" or "There is only one way to God".

But the ant-christ spirit to homogonize societies or the world into the dominant and correct race or religion or system of non-beliefs is evil and means to interfere with our freedom to choose God. Hitler, the Soviet Union, the Inquistion, the church in England, China all tried to bring order by suppressing differences and free choice.

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

The idea of original sin seems like a pretty negative view of human nature..

I will take my reply to the thread of understanding the tree of good and evil.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

That's the bibles teachings on the anti-christ? In 12 years of religion class, they generally stayed away from the Apocalypse and focused on more morality and such. In general, it seems extremely pessimistic to me, but much of Christianity does to me. The idea of original sin seems like a pretty negative view of human nature. The inability of people to unite unless they are decieved by an anti-christ figure seems pretty negative as well.

There is wide disagreement in Christian circles about "things to come". Premillenialism, Postmillenialism, Amillenialism, Dispensationalism, Hyperdispensationalism, and so on. The detailed prophecies that Nightspirit is talking about are in my view more embellishments in the vein of Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series of novels than from the Bible. Some Christians even believe that the events she discusses happened already and identify whatever Roman emperor presided over the sacking of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem (I forget his name) as the Antichrist (if I recall correctly, that group would be the Christian Reconstructionists).

As an example of all the confusion, there is a verse in the Bible to the effect that "when you see the abomination that causes desolation walking in the temple" you will know the end is nigh. So what is the "abomination that causes desolation"? The Bible never really says. Various interpreters are convinced they know, and they disagree with one another. Vague, ominous statements produce vague, ominous beliefs.

And on it goes ... will we be resurrected bodily or not? Are the dead conscious or in "soul sleep"? When, chronologically, does the thousand year reign of Christ occur, always assuming of course that there will literally be such a reign? (the debate about whether a passage is literal or figurative, and if figurative, what it's a metaphor for, is often crucial in such debates) Will there or will there not be a literal "rapture" in which "true believers" will simply vanish from the earth?

All of this is great fodder for sermons but generates way more heat than light. Some of these teachings are based on single verses or even phrases. Nowhere, in my view, do the teachings of the church become more muddled (and often self-serving) than in the area of prophecy.

This happens even outside the realm of prophecy; most of you have probably heard about the "unpardonable sin" or the "sin unto death" which has been hotly debated for two thousand years as to what it is because although the apostle Paul said there is such a sin he coyly did not mention what it was. This has permitted it to be "identified" through the centuries as whatever bugaboo various teachers most wanted to scare people sh_tless about. Premarital sex, lust, and masturbation are favorites. Which brings you to the whole disagreement about "eternal security of the believer" ... can you lose your salvation? The free will of man vs the sovereignty of God ... Oh, on and on and on it goes ...

--Bob

(among other not-his-proudest-moments, a one-time inmate of a theological cemetery ... uh, seminary).