Can you be a Christian and do Intention/Manifestation?

[SmartAlx]

It seems to me that these two methodologies are mutually exclusive. Are there any strong Christians here practicing Intention/Manifestation? How do you reconcile the differences between the philosophies of giving your will to God and of taking control?

[Dan.Linehan]

What happens once you give over your will to God? He drops indications about what directions to go in, right?

Couldn't you use I-M to do God's will more effectively?

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

So what happens once you give over your will to God? He drops indications about what directions to go in, right?

Indeed, He does.

Couldn't you use I-M to do God's will more effectively?

I'm not following. The closest comparison I can think of is a prayer versus making an intention.

Isn't the methodology of IM something like, "I will this event to happen." It's a commanding sort of thinking, as if you are in control. Praying to God is a question. It's asking for permission. It's accepting our frailties and giving the power to God. It's humble.

I get the impression that IM does not allow for any humility.

IM is like telling your parent that you want a cookie.
Prayer is like asking your parent to give you a cookie.

That's my impression anyway. Am I wrong?

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Indeed, He does.
I'm not following. The closest comparison I can think of is a prayer versus making an intention.

Isn't the methodology of IM something like, "I will this event to happen." It's a commanding sort of thinking, as if you are in control. Praying to God is a question. It's asking for permission. It's accepting our frailties and giving the power to God. It's humble.

I get the impression that IM does not allow for any humility.

IM is like telling your parent that you want a cookie.
Prayer is like asking your parent to give you a cookie.

That's my impression anyway. Am I wrong?

Let's say God is directing you towards being an accountant, because there is so much fraud running rampant in the financial markets.

To achieve a reasonable impact in the field you know you'll need to be at least a CPA, possibly a MBA too.

So, while maintaining your faith in God, and with the understanding and knowledge that it is His path on which you are walking, you meditate, pray, visualize, focus, and take full responsibility for becoming a CPA.

The goal setting and visualization aspects would be I-M.

[ogrekilleat]

Praying to God is a question. It's asking for permission. It's accepting our frailties and giving the power to God. It's humble.

I disagree with this. God knows what the pray-er wants and what they need (which they themselves may not know, and they may even virulently disagree with God's assessment of the situation, if they but knew it), it knows the pray-ers will and more importantly, it knows its own will. I actually think most forms of prayer are an attempt to impose one's own will on God...sort of like a child, who thinks that if it asks enough times, it will get what it wants. That doesn't sound like humility to me.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

"Ask and it is given."

IM, sponsored by The Holy Bible.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

"Ask and it is given."

IM, sponsored by The Holy Bible.

Or the "holey" bible if you take it to the extreme and believe it literally.
But yeah. There it is.....

and...."greater works will ye do than I".
And don't forget this was the Big Kahuna himself sayin dat. Who was really just a very very smart mystical dude.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

"Ask and it is given."

IM, sponsored by The Holy Bible.

Isn't IM "tell and it is given?"

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Let's say God is directing you towards being an accountant, because there is so much fraud running rampant in the financial markets.

To achieve a reasonable impact in the field you know you'll need to be at least a CPA, possibly a MBA too.

So, while maintaining your faith in God, and with the understanding and knowledge that it is His path on which you are walking, you meditate, pray, visualize, focus, and take full responsibility for becoming a CPA.

The goal setting and visualization aspects would be I-M.

Well, I'm on board with most of that, but what about going so far as proclaiming in a sort of ritualistic way "I will that my way be clear to me becoming an accountant." Isn't IM more direct and controlling than letting/hoping that it will happen? Isn't it sort of like directing energy or something?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Isn't IM "tell and it is given?"

No, it's more about asking and allowing. "Ask and It is Given", by the way, is the title of a very popular book on the subject.

For me, it's about ways of being rather than getting things and stuff, but I think I may be a minority in that.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by ogrekilleat

I disagree with this. God knows what the pray-er wants and what they need (which they themselves may not know, and they may even virulently disagree with God's assessment of the situation, if they but knew it), it knows the pray-ers will and more importantly, it knows its own will. I actually think most forms of prayer are an attempt to impose one's own will on God...sort of like a child, who thinks that if it asks enough times, it will get what it wants. That doesn't sound like humility to me.

Then why does the Bible tell us to pray?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Then why does the Bible tell us to pray?

I think prayer, like IM, is a focused and directed request as opposed to just letting the default and whatever you are unconsciously thinking happen.

I don't really see any reason why they should be mutually exclusive. I don't think that IM contradicts the Bible or Jesus at all.

[jawillie]

Originally Posted by Angela

No, it's more about asking and allowing. "Ask and It is Given", by the way, is the title of a very popular book on the subject.

For me, it's about ways of being rather than getting things and stuff, but I think I may be a minority in that.

I'm with ya, though I am playing around a bit. But, I am to a point where, it doesn't matter to me if the "stuff" materializes or not, I can "roll with it." Maybe that is me blocking the stuff from coming to me, but at least I am happy.

As far as Christianity and IM. I don't know. I am not a Christian. I use the Bible as a Spiritual teaching, much like the Tao te Ching and other such books. I see Jesus as a spiritual teacher like Buddha and others. So I am not much help.

[SmartAlx]

Are there any strong Christians here who practice IM the way it's described in the Intention-Manifestation forum: Basically calling out to the ether, "I want this."

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Are there any strong Christians here who practice IM the way it's described in the Intention-Manifestation forum: Basically calling out to the ether, "I want this."

When I was a strong Christian I did that. Just substitute God for ether.

[jawillie]

I have done a ton of exploring of IM and I guess I don't see that it is about "I want that." But that could just be me, I don't know. Seems pretty simplified to me, and I think there is a bit more to it than that. I don't know. That term bugs me, maybe someone with a bit more eloquency than I can explain? I don't go around saying "I want that" all day! I do pray. I do ask. I do have desires. I believe Christians have desires, too.

Are we getting all tangled up in "words" again?

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by jawillie

I don't go around saying "I want that" all day! I do pray. I do ask. I do have desires. I believe Christians have desires, too.

Everybody does. And everybody goes aroung asking, praying, wishing, stating things like "I want that." So what do you do that's special when you do I-M?

Are we getting all tangled up in "words" again?

Maybe.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

It seems to me that these two methodologies are mutually exclusive. Are there any strong Christians here practicing Intention/Manifestation? How do you reconcile the differences between the philosophies of giving your will to God and of taking control?

Jesus was a master manifester! Miracles are intentional manifestations, wouldn't you say?

The issue, I'm thinking, is that we mistakingly think IM means we get to tell the universe what we want from our ego - but that is not how it would work. Ego desires are illusions (since the ego is fabricated too) and faulty in terms of being backed by source.

After all the IM/LoA material says to detach from the outcome, don't have an attachment to the desire and an IM state is to feel as if you already have that which you desire - all of which is to say ask not from the ego but from Being and wholeness.

Irony is that to ask without the ego means to feel whole - and if you feel whole you don't have ego desires.

Jesus was more than the son of God, I'd say. He was able to be God (or know what creation really is), in a way. And he was trying to tell everyone anyone can do it. Then they made a religion out of it making the real Jesus message difficult to find.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. Matt 21:21

[ogrekilleat]

Then why does the Bible tell us to pray?

Actually, it tells us to pray using a specific form that is quite different from the usual prayer:

Matthew 6:7-13:

And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
This, then, is how you should pray:

'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. '

(Emphasis mine.)

[ogrekilleat]

Good quote, ATC.

I think the gist of this conversation that I'm getting is that one should not pray, but only go and boldly manifest good works. (I'm assuming that Christians choose to be Lightworkers, hence the manifesting of "good works" only.)

[Acting Like Godot]

Actually there are many forms of IM/LOA. The Christian form of prayer just happens to be one of them.

Therefore it is quite unsurprising that there are various LOA books written from the Christian perspective. One of them is "The Amazing Laws of Cosmic Mind Power" by Joseph Murphy, who was a church minister for 28 years of his life.

The book compiles dozens and dozens of accounts of people who came to him in his ministerial capacity, seeking guidance and advice on a wide range of problems. Essentially he would listen to the person's problem and then advise them how to pray to God about it. They'd pray in that way, and then the problem would solve itself, often in a quite startling, miraculous way.

If you read the last 3rd of the book, you're going to discover that Joseph Murphy says things like, "Pray using mental images. Pray with emotion. Pray as if the thing you're praying for has already arrived, or as if you're completely certain it's on it way. Pray with gratitude." Etc etc.

In other words, it's basically the same, usual LOA stuff.

[Acting Like Godot]

Another example of a fervent Christian in the LOA field is Jose Silva.

Jose Silva is the founder of the Silva Method. It is a system comprising hypnosis, meditation and other mind techniques. Assorted tools within this system include communicating with spirit guides or counsellors (like Napoleon Hill in "Think and Grow Rich"); various ESP type of abilities like remote viewing; energy healing (like reiki or religious faith healing) etc. And of course, the straightforward attraction of your desires

In all of Silva's books that I am aware of, there is always only one explicit reference to God. Throughout his book, he uses terms like "Higher Intelligence"; "Infinite Intelligence" etc as a description of the ultimate source of power. But he doesn't say "God".

The only reference to God comes right at the end of his book. Typically Silva dedicates the book to God and says that in his view, "Infinite Intelligence" is Jesus Christ his Saviour.

If you examine Silva's writings and ideas thoroughly, I think you will see that indeed he is, personally, a very staunch Christian. However, Silva simply didn't believe that you have to address Jesus as "Jesus"; or read the Bible; or go to church; or be baptised; or to subscribe to the Christian idea of "God";

in order for God to play a big role in your life. From Silva's perspective, it was more like God is all-powerful, everywhere, all the time, and the Silva Method was a system that enabled you to communicate with and tap into this universal force.

(The Silva Method did have a built-in value system; Silva insisted, for example, that his Silva Method would backfire if the person tried to use it for bad or malicious purposes; and Silva emphasised that Silva graduates should use the Silva Method not just to better their own lives, but the lives of people around them).

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

I get the impression that IM does not allow for any humility.

We have to get a little careful here. Humility and doubt are different, but can be mistaken for each other. Arrogance and faith are different, but also can be mistaken for each other.

I would say that most schools of LOA teach the importance of faith and not having doubt.

If it helps, imagine Jesus going around and performing miracles. Do you think he said, "Rise, Lazarus, by the power of God, rise from the dead!", and then Lazarus rose ...

Or did you think Jesus say: "Oh God ... this is gonna be difficult ... help me out here, dear Father .... I am so weak without you ... really need your strength ... please, please, please, God ... can you make that dead man there get up again? ... oh, come on, Father ....".

You might see the preceding paragraph as a sign of humility. Or you might see it as a sign of doubt / lack of faith.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Everybody does. And everybody goes aroung asking, praying, wishing, stating things like "I want that." So what do you do that's special when you do I-M?

To me, one very key difference is consciously getting to alpha. (Just in case you haven't heard of that, alpha is a certain range of brainwave frequencies to a certain level - the changes are observable on an EEG machine).

Different LOA schools teach different methods of consciously getting to alpha. Generally, alpha occurs when you're very relaxed, but ordinarily most people get there only when they're not alert, eg they are about to fall asleep.

For IM/LOA purposes, you need to get into alpha and still be quite conscious and alert (so that you can start working on your intentions). You get there using hypnotic methods, or progressive muscular relaxation, or meditation ...

... or prayer.

Another key difference is that if you haven't come across concepts like IM/LOA, you generally will be much more limited in what you consider possible. So when you say, "I want that", either the "that" is a smaller sort of thing, or you generally will have more doubts that it isn't possible (because you haven't learned yet that doubt is exactly what makes it not possible).

[12345]

I just always tell God my desires and say “If it be Your will, God” since God is the only One who knows what’s best for me. I have always used positive visualization (which, from what I understand, is a key component of intention/manifestation), but I do so with God as my foundation and thus with the acknowledgement that my life/purpose is His and not mine.

God bless to all.

[Alexjstrandberg]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Can you be a Christian and do Intention/Manifestation?

No God will hate you for it...jk

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by 12345

I just always tell God my desires and say “If it be Your will, God” since God is the only One who knows what’s best for me. I have always used positive visualization (which, from what I understand, is a key component of intention/manifestation), but I do so with God as my foundation and thus with the acknowledgement that my life/purpose is His and not mine.

God bless to all.

maybe this is the difference. Some will do as you do - turn it over to some other being (God) as an entity outside of yourself. Others will feel as if they are one with everything when they pray/ask and not be turning it over to something outside of them.

Does turning it over to God like this generate doubt? Like, "I'm not sure if this is going to happen, so I'll believe in a God that when it happens or not, it's that external entity's will, not mine".

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

To me, one very key difference is consciously getting to alpha. (Just in case you haven't heard of that, alpha is a certain range of brainwave frequencies to a certain level - the changes are observable on an EEG machine).

good point on the alpha state. that state also tends to be less ego driven, imho.

when in alpha I feel more at one with my surroundings and less defensive about my definition of myself.

[NightSpirit]

Is LOA in conflict with Christian living? I felt the same apprehension when I first heard the LOA teachings. As I worked through this question, I came to see the teachings on LOA as an attempt to explain a law that God set in place, like the spiritual equivalent to the law of gravity. LOA is neither good nor evil and is working in our lives whether we believe in God or not.

The quality of our lives is not only a result of where and what we are presented with at birth or even the sum total of what has happened to us. We were all given by God the power to create within the realm of our own lives by choosing our thoughts and beliefs . I believe this power is what is meant by we were “created in the image of God”. And I also believe this power is what makes us accountable to God if we misuse or ignore the power of our choices and attitudes. I can cite more Biblical references for why I believe this if that would help. At it’s best, LOA methodology is just a way to help us consciously direct or thoughts and requests in a more deliberate way.

In practice, the law of detachment and the law of allowing were most helpful in revealing the doubts and attitudes I was holding in my heart that were hidden to me. LOA actually improved my faith in God because it seemed like the “keys to the kingdom” in a way and helped explain the reason I wasn’t getting what I asked for even though the Bible says that “everyone who asks receives“. Either I’m doing something wrong or God lied so I chose to study myself rather than believe that about Him.

That being said, even though I see the truth in LOA principles I don’t feel I have to agree with everything that an LOA teacher would say anymore than I would feel I had to handle rattlesnakes or bow to a priest just because other people who believe in the God of the Bible, as I do, feel that is right for them.