What is the deal with God??

[Rafael Perez]

I have noticed from visiting the different threads and reading the comments that many a heated conversation will take place.

I am curious about the common state of awareness when it comes to your belief system, why is there so much anger? So many spiritual wounds?

What do you believe in that is positive about your belief, can you answer that without putting someone elses beliefs down?

[Craiz8]

I am that I am.
I used this term allot, and for good reason. I am that I am - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As you can see it radiates from all religions. I personally find it inspiring in the fact that we were made in his image. I use it to inspire my inner god, and to remind myself that I can not judge what I do not know, or really even judge what I do. I barely have defined myself. I am to be who I am meant to be...

You are that you are.
Whether you believe in God or other. You (anyone) can't tell me what is right or wrong. You can suggest to me alternatives and I will take it up with "I AM".

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Rafael Perez

I have noticed from visiting the different threads and reading the comments that many a heated conversation will take place.

I am curious about the common state of awareness when it comes to your belief system, why is there so much anger? So many spiritual wounds?

What do you believe in that is positive about your belief, can you answer that without putting someone elses beliefs down?

Christianity is being "fazed out", so to speak due to the collective consciousness waking up to what Time is.
(The heated discussions is the effects of something dying fighting for their beliefs.)

Namely that "creation" does not happen in some distant past, but is continuous in the never ending NOW.

This awareness, cancels out that there is a "creator".

(Sorry to be blunt, what thats the way it is.)

[Rafael Perez]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Christianity is being "fazed out", so to speak due to the collective consciousness waking up to what Time is.
(The heated discussions is the effects of something dying fighting for their beliefs.)

Namely that "creation" does not happen in some distant past, but is continuous in the never ending NOW.

This awareness, cancels out that there is a "creator".

(Sorry to be blunt, what thats the way it is.)

Wouldn't your theory imply that everything that was created is being created now, wouldn't that still imply that there is a creator?

just curious.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Rafael Perez

wouldn't that still imply that there is a creator?

Yeah, the "creator" is you.
(And I'm not being cute. I really mean it.)

[Jamie]

The world begins with you.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Rafael Perez

I have noticed from visiting the different threads and reading the comments that many a heated conversation will take place.

I am curious about the common state of awareness when it comes to your belief system, why is there so much anger? So many spiritual wounds?

What do you believe in that is positive about your belief, can you answer that without putting someone elses beliefs down?

the question really is do I (you) have spiritual wounds & anger? and is that being reflected back to you through your perception of what is being said in the threads?

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Christianity is being "fazed out", so to speak due to the collective consciousness waking up to what Time is.
(The heated discussions is the effects of something dying fighting for their beliefs.)

Namely that "creation" does not happen in some distant past, but is continuous in the never ending NOW.

This awareness, cancels out that there is a "creator".

(Sorry to be blunt, what thats the way it is.)

I agree. But just to be fair, it's not only christianity, but also Judaism, Islam, or really any organized religion.

[Craiz8]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Namely that "creation" does not happen in some distant past, but is continuous in the never ending NOW.

This awareness, cancels out that there is a "creator".

So to state that there is not a creator because creation is happening now. But for something to be created there has to be a creator. Are you referencing manmade creations , cosmic creations, or even sociological creations?

[Rafael Perez]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Yeah, the "creator" is you.
(And I'm not being cute. I really mean it.)

So if I am the creator am I not God or what ever you choose to call it.
Don't worry I know your not being cute, I'm just curious about something. BTW I think you are absolutely right, I just wonder why condemn someone elses beliefs if there is no such thing as right and wrong.

[Rafael Perez]

Originally Posted by torilink

the question really is do I (you) have spiritual wounds & anger? and is that being reflected back to you through your perception of what is being said in the threads?

That is a very good point, but I don't. I will admit I have seen the ugliness that could come from self-righteous judgement after all I was thrown out of a Christian Church. But I have seen much judgment and heated discussions almost as if it is a contest to see who is right and who is wrong. I know where the anger came from when I was experiencing my truth about it, I'm just curious about others, that's all...

It's one of those subjects that seems very easy to push buttons on.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Rafael Perez

That is a very good point, but I don't. I will admit I have seen the ugliness that could come from self-righteous judgement after all I was thrown out of a Christian Church. But I have seen much judgment and heated discussions almost as if it is a contest to see who is right and who is wrong. I know where the anger came from when I was experiencing my truth about it, I'm just curious about others, that's all...

It's one of those subjects that seems very easy to push buttons on.

it is a huge button pusher for the ego - for sure!

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Rafael Perez

Why is there so much anger? So many spiritual wounds?

In my view, no belief system has a satisfactory explanation for the impedance mismatch between what we instinctively feel should be, and what in fact is. There is no satisfactory balm for what CS Lewis called "The problem of pain" (including his book by that title, if you ask me). There are other issues, too -- issues of meaning, purpose, and the nature and existence of an afterlife -- but simple human suffering is the Big Enchilada.

So the anger comes from the frustration and cognitive dissonance between what's expected / wanted / seems just, and what is.

If you are attached to certain religious beliefs then that belief becomes part of your expectations. Generally, religion provides explanations for the inexplicable / inexcusable, comfort, and promise of reward or somehow setting things right (conveniently, pie in the sky by-and-by, for the most part). If someone has a differing belief then this unsettles and tends to anger you because that other person, whether they mean to or not, is kicking your props out from under you. Also, if you can be described as a devout adherent to your religion, then you have a lot of effort and ego invested in that particular way, too.

As for the spiritual wounds, well, that is widespread because most people let others decide what they should believe and because that formula will never be quite right for them personally, they will inevitably be damaged or hindered by it.

There is an old saying, "God has no grandchildren." Everyone must find their way to enlightenment and peace pretty much on their own. To the extent that you hitch yourself to someone else's spirituality for a "free ride", it is not going to serve you well and may in fact be quite damaging.

--Bob

[mercuryrising]

I'm not sure how debating helps make the shift to a greater consciousness.

If I call you an ******* it really doesn't matter what I believe, does it?

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I agree. But just to be fair, it's not only christianity, but also Judaism, Islam, or really any organized religion.

Absolutley !
Any religion brings endless Humor on the endless silly quatch they believe.
Lol....

Which brings up the point, where would comedy be without religion?
Jon Steward would be unemployed !

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Craiz8

So to state that there is not a creator because creation is happening now. But for something to be created there has to be a creator. Are you referencing manmade creations , cosmic creations, or even sociological creations?

The whole shebang......is continually regenerated in the never ending Now, by what the Perceiver "perceives" (and is "led" to believe.)

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Rafael Perez

So if I am the creator am I not God or what ever you choose to call it.
Don't worry I know your not being cute, I'm just curious about something. BTW I think you are absolutely right, I just wonder why condemn someone elses beliefs if there is no such thing as right and wrong.

I'd change your word "condemn" to "explain".

There is a right and wrong Perspective.
These people are creating a self generated hell for themselves.
(Which could be argued, maybe they WANT to do this....)

Is it my "job" to interfere. Sure why not?
They came to this forum without coercion.

[mercuryrising]

You know what I think the real deal is?

Belief is very powerful. And for centuries, a small group of people have been telling us what to believe. What we are coming around to now is taking back the power of belief. We won't just nod our heads in agreement anymore. We question the validity of statements against experience and other information. We are in the process of digging up all these conditioned beliefs that have been programmed into us.

That may be painful at times, but it is needed. It's like cutting out a cancerous tumor.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

You know what I think the real deal is?

Belief is very powerful. And for centuries, a small group of people have been telling us what to believe. What we are coming around to now is taking back the power of belief. We won't just nod our heads in agreement anymore. We question the validity of statements against experience and other information. We are in the process of digging up all these conditioned beliefs that have been programmed into us.

That may be painful at times, but it is needed. It's like cutting out a cancerous tumor.

Hear, hear, Merc.
~~Stomping foot on table loudly~~

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Hear, hear, Merc.
~~Stomping foot on table loudly~~

Where's that devilish smiley when ya need him. LOL

[Lauxa]

I think the most positive thing about religion is that it gets people to transcend their egos. This is what causes the transformation that many people experience through religion. Unfortunately, many times they transcend the individual ego only to join up with a collective ego. The ego must always defend itself, so attacking the religion (i.e. collective ego) triggers people to heated argument.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

Where's that devilish smiley when ya need him. LOL

Blame David Blane, everybody else is.

[Angela]

I've gotta say, Rafael, each time I see the title of this thread come up, it makes me laugh. "What is the DEAL!?"

[MrNotebook]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Blame David Blane, everybody else is.

lol!!!

[12345]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

In my view, no belief system has a satisfactory explanation for the impedance mismatch between what we instinctively feel should be, and what in fact is. There is no satisfactory balm for what CS Lewis called "The problem of pain" (including his book by that title, if you ask me). There are other issues, too -- issues of meaning, purpose, and the nature and existence of an afterlife -- but simple human suffering is the Big Enchilada.

As someone who *attempts* to be a Christian (meaning that I still struggle with sin), I have always been satisfied with the bible’s explanations for human suffering:

Isaiah 48:10 (King James Version): Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

There are several bible verses that compare suffering to the refining of gold and silver. Without suffering, we would never know how much we can accomplish through God, and we would never become more like Jesus. It is only through my own suffering that I have become more Godly. Before I experienced hardship in my life, I always *thought* that I was a pretty good person, but I truly believe hardship has brought out the *best* qualities in me—qualities and strengths that I didn’t even know existed. I became much more capable of empathizing with people whose problems and lives were very different from mine. I realized that I was indeed a slave to sin and that I could and should improve my actions. Most importantly, my belief and faith in God became even stronger, because I truly realized that it is not through my own strength, but through God’s, that I am able to do anything good in life. I would not have *grown* and become more like Christ if everything had stayed the same. Humans simply would never become all that God intended them to be if it weren’t for suffering.

I remember hearing Dr. Charles Stanley say that each person’s trials/hardships are customized for that individual, and that it takes different trials (i.e., different degrees of fire) at different times in a person’s life to refine them to become all that God intended them to be. I completely agree with this. I look back at my life and realize had I been given all the trials that have been thrown at me at an earlier age, I couldn’t and wouldn’t have handled them appropriately. Slowly but surely, God turned up the thermostat, purifying and enabling me to become stronger. I have always personally felt that life’s greatest trials make any triumphs that we may have even more beautiful. I look at the kids at St. Jude’s, for example, and regardless of whether they live or die, their courage and strength are undeniable; this is in my eyes triumph over tragedy.

I realize that since you are not satisfied with C.S. Lewis’s “The Problem of Pain”, you probably see absolutely no point in my ramblings—but that’s okay. I’ve actually never read “Pain”, but I do remember the passage “God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pain: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world”; at least to me, Lewis is exactly right in saying that pain is precisely what people *need*. Martin Luther had a very similar viewpoint to Lewis in saying that “We pray for silver, but God often gives us gold instead”.

As I said, I’m satisfied with the bible’s explanation of suffering, but that doesn’t mean I enjoy suffering. I hate suffering, but I know it’s necessary for me to become the best possible person I can be.

God bless to all.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by 12345

...It is only through my own suffering that I have become more Godly. Before I experienced hardship in my life, I always *thought* that I was a pretty good person, but I truly believe hardship has brought out the *best* qualities in me ...

...pain is precisely what people *need*.

Suffering is not ennobling. I reject such sado-masochism. My wife suffered for thirty years and all it did was degrade her and crush her spirit and rob her of joy.

Sure, she transcended it in many ways. Sure, that is admirable. It's still an obscenity. She neither deserved nor needed it. Her life was a shadow of what it should have been because of suffering. Did she learn lessons from her suffering? Yes. Were there gentler ways to learn those lessons? Also yes.

At the end she was exactly like a puppy whose master has inexplicably decided to start kicking the living ♥♥♥♥ out of her.

Just because we are able to make lemonade from lemons, doesn't mean lemons are a good thing.

But really, this is all just impotent whining. Life is what it is. Suffering is part of the human condition. Religion's job is to provide baroque rationalizations and fancy circumlocutions so that we can endure anyway.

The reason they don't work for me is that as a former Christian I trusted God to protect me and mine and he didn't. The God of my world isn't the God of Billy Graham; he's the God of Spinoza. A God who neither loves nor hates me, but is indifferent to me, so that in practice, he's indistinguishable from nature itself.

Ultimately, I was done no favors to expect a benign, caring God who watches over me. That expectation carried the seeds of my loss of faith and hope because it didn't stand the test of experience. All it did was generate MORE suffering from living with the contradiction.

I don't begrudge you your beliefs. They happen to have sufficed for you. Be thankful that you haven't been taken beyond the limits of your rationalizer. My rationalizer shorted out a long time ago. The only consolation is that a huge burden has been lifted from me. It is now easier to see life as it really is than to strenuously explain all the inconsistencies. I never did care for the field of apologetics; even the name is a hoot. It's a relief not to have to apologize to the rest of the world for all the logical inconsistencies of my belief system.

--Bob

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

The reason they don't work for me is that as a former Christian I trusted God to protect me and mine and he didn't. The God of my world isn't the God of Billy Graham; he's the God of Spinoza. A God who neither loves nor hates me, but is indifferent to me, so that in practice, he's indistinguishable from nature itself.

Ultimately, I was done no favors to expect a benign, caring God who watches over me. That expectation carried the seeds of my loss of faith and hope because it didn't stand the test of experience. All it did was generate MORE suffering from living with the contradiction.

I don't begrudge you your beliefs. They happen to have sufficed for you. Be thankful that you haven't been taken beyond the limits of your rationalizer. My rationalizer shorted out a long time ago. The only consolation is that a huge burden has been lifted from me. It is now easier to see life as it really is than to strenuously explain all the inconsistencies. I never did care for the field of apologetics; even the name is a hoot. It's a relief not to have to apologize to the rest of the world for all the logical inconsistencies of my belief system.

--Bob

Eloquently stated. I find myself in much the same boat without the personal tragedies. The inconsistencies for me made me seek other answers, and I genuinely think I have found better.

[MrNotebook]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

My wife suffered for thirty years and all it did was degrade her and crush her spirit and rob her of joy.

My heart goes out to you and your wife. I'm deepy sorrowed to hear about anyone having to suffer.

Victor Frankl in his book "Man's Search For Meaning" made a statement about suffering...

"Once we find the meaning in our suffering, it ceases to be suffering"

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

She neither deserved nor needed it. Her life was a shadow of what it should have been because of suffering. Did she learn lessons from her suffering? Yes.

Once we decide to come to Christianity we are to let go of our expectations of life to be rosy and peachy. Satan oftentimes sets us up in a way to decieve us into thinking that we won't suffer because we have accepted Jesus into our lives. Many Christians buy into that lie (I did). We are to expected to suffer as Christians.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

At the end she was exactly like a puppy whose master has inexplicably decided to start kicking the living ♥♥♥♥ out of her.

What I am about to say may not be easy for you to accept, however could it be that you have become bitter in some sense in regards to the suffering of your wife? Could it be that you (and your wife) have not yet fully accepted it and moved on peacefully? Could it be that Satan is having you clutch onto this bitterness in an effort to have you miss the gift to emerge from her suffering? Have you tried looking beyond the suffering itself to identify the gift?

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

"...as a former Christian I trusted God to protect me and mine and he didn't."

This is part of where I feel your bitterness toward God. I at one point in my past felt very angry at God for certain conditions in my life. Have you tried expressing these concerns to God?

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

That expectation carried the seeds of my loss of faith and hope because it didn't stand the test of experience.

Precisely. That is exactly what Satan wanted you to do. Form false expectations of what you thought life "should" be in Christ. Essentially, he set a trap and you walked into it. I have done the same. It's common technique he uses on Christians. That is why he is called "The Father of Lies".

[pianoperformer]

I am having immense difficulty with self control...

Absolutely astounding.

Really? You think we should suffer constantly during this life so we can enjoy a nice rosey afterlife?

Nothing more to say.

[MrNotebook]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

You think we should suffer constantly during this life so we can enjoy a nice rosey afterlife?

That's not what I'm saying at all. Let me give you an example from my own life....

When I was in my early twenties I got my but kicked pretty badly by a close relative. It was totally unexpected because I was under the impression that we had a "good" relationship. It took me many many years to come to reach a point of true forgiveness. If this fight and subsequent suffering never happened, I might not have learned and acquired the gift of forgiveness of which I am now able to demonstrate in my life.

Another example is having put myself into deep financial debt due to making bad purchase decisions with my earned money. If I had not gotten my car repossesed and lose my apartment (and job), I would not have reached a point whereas I now can excercise greater financial responsibility with my money.

So you see, it took some suffering for me to reach this point of personal growth in my life.