.is david blaine a devil worshipper.

[MrNotebook]

Originally Posted by fwellers

Listen to what you just said. I can boil it down to :
You're right, my heart is incapable of such cruelty, HOWEVER, MY GOD'S HEART IS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....Dannyboy, this is what fwellers is talking about....you responded to this quote above with the response below like you were talking to me, however this was not my statement.

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

If it is, then you are hoping another person harm. Are you angry because I'm trying to get you to defend your accusations with something more than a "feeling"? Doesn't sound very God-like to me. I believe God is a tad more understanding than your idea of God and I don't think he or she would approve of me judging other people in general, let alone with no proof. I don't believe in hurting or threatening people. I believe in helping and respecting people. Just because I don't understand someone doesn't mean they're in league with the devil and if someone accuses an innocent man with no proof, I'm more apt to believe that they are doing the devils work than the person they are accusing. I only surround myself with good people, tolerant people... people who don't fly off the handle when you question their beliefs, but question themselves and grow. People who love each other for who they are and don't try to force them into one way of thinking. I don't believe in organized religion. I think you have to develop your relationship with God one-on-one. Far too many innocent people have died in the name of religion. I am not a sheep of any other man, I am a sheep of God. What are you?

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

Yes I meant this post to be for mr notebook.

....so I think you thought the above statement was from me, however, it wasn't.

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

Luck? So, it was just lucky that everything worked out here on earth? Come on. Impossible.

Low probability multiplied by infinite possibility yields certainty.

What if a man came up to you and offered you a bet. The odds of you winning the bet are 0.1%, but you can play as many times as you want and for free? Would you collect your free money?



Its the same reason I believe in aliens and other intelligent life not on earth. Low probability times infinite space yields certainty.


Looking at the universe and importing intentionality is faulty thinking. You are projecting your own wants and desires into something that doesn't naturally have it. Complexity does not denote Design. Is a baby designed by his parents?

Teleological argument, the universe is not a pocketwatch. Not that your arguement even proves the existence of God, which by the way it doesn't. Even if it proved the existence of something (which again it doesnt), it's turtles all the way down.



As for me being afraid of death? On the contrary, I admit death as unknown, and I have no reason to fear that which I don't know. We are all essentially ants in the cosmological sense. The fact that there is no heaven and hell to me is actually extremely liberating. I don't have to live in fear of divine retribution, I can take life for what it is, and that is life. I can enjoy the moment and live in peace. My reality is what I want to make it, and that, my friend, is extremely empowering. I am my own master.


Your disbelief over the mere idea of luck shows how strong you have been socially conditioned to believe what you believe. Expand your mind, think about it, you will suprise yourself.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by MrNotebook

....Dannyboy, this is what fwellers is talking about....you responded to this quote above with the response below like you were talking to me, however this was not my statement.





....so I think you thought the above statement was from me, however, it wasn't.

I misread.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

Low probability multiplied by infinite possibility yields certainty.

What if a man came up to you and offered you a bet. The odds of you winning the bet are 0.1%, but you can play as many times as you want and for free? Would you collect your free money?



Its the same reason I believe in aliens and other intelligent life not on earth. Low probability times infinite space yields certainty.


Looking at the universe and importing intentionality is faulty thinking. You are projecting your own wants and desires into something that doesn't naturally have it. Complexity does not denote Design. Is a baby designed by his parents?

Teleological argument, the universe is not a pocketwatch. Not that your arguement even proves the existence of God, which by the way it doesn't. Even if it proved the existence of something (which again it doesnt), it's turtles all the way down.



As for me being afraid of death? On the contrary, I admit death as unknown, and I have no reason to fear that which I don't know. We are all essentially ants in the cosmological sense. The fact that there is no heaven and hell to me is actually extremely liberating. I don't have to live in fear of divine retribution, I can take life for what it is, and that is life. I can enjoy the moment and live in peace. My reality is what I want to make it, and that, my friend, is extremely empowering. I am my own master.


Your disbelief over the mere idea of luck shows how strong you have been socially conditioned to believe what you believe. Expand your mind, think about it, you will suprise yourself.

Or rationalize? Do me a favor, genius. Don't patronize people. Just because I disagree with you and the folly of your "just crazy luck" theory doesn't mean your mind is more "expanded" than mine. I've studied Einstein's theories of time and space in college. By the way, he believed there was only one answer for how the universe was put together, a higher intelligence. So, am I missing something? Are you wiser than Einstein?

[Liminal Chris]

I never personally knew Einstein so I don't know how smart he actually was. Keep in mind there are different types of intelligence. No doubt at math, Einstein was a sheer genius. At other aspects of life, who knows... I would have to research and study him. I am sure there is a social context for why he said and believed what he believed. Perhaps he wasn't as emotionally intelligent as he was mathmatically intelligent and he let his longing desire for more cloud his judgement. I don't know, you don't know.

As for patronizing, I don't particularly appreciate your tone as well. But really, I don't care about tone, it's insignificant to the content.


Other than citing Einstein's beliefs, do you have anything to actually attack my content? Just saying I am wrong doesn't actually prove it.


The strongest steel is forged in the hottest fire. I welcome any and all criticism as should anyone who subscribes to any belief.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

Low probability multiplied by infinite possibility yields certainty.

What if a man came up to you and offered you a bet. The odds of you winning the bet are 0.1%, but you can play as many times as you want and for free? Would you collect your free money?



Its the same reason I believe in aliens and other intelligent life not on earth. Low probability times infinite space yields certainty.


Looking at the universe and importing intentionality is faulty thinking. You are projecting your own wants and desires into something that doesn't naturally have it. Complexity does not denote Design. Is a baby designed by his parents?

Teleological argument, the universe is not a pocketwatch. Not that your arguement even proves the existence of God, which by the way it doesn't. Even if it proved the existence of something (which again it doesnt), it's turtles all the way down.



As for me being afraid of death? On the contrary, I admit death as unknown, and I have no reason to fear that which I don't know. We are all essentially ants in the cosmological sense. The fact that there is no heaven and hell to me is actually extremely liberating. I don't have to live in fear of divine retribution, I can take life for what it is, and that is life. I can enjoy the moment and live in peace. My reality is what I want to make it, and that, my friend, is extremely empowering. I am my own master.


Your disbelief over the mere idea of luck shows how strong you have been socially conditioned to believe what you believe. Expand your mind, think about it, you will suprise yourself.

I don't know man, I feel that there is way too much pattern and complexity in all of nature to have happened by pure chance. How old is universe supposed to be about 4 billion years ? I don't even think that's enough time for things to have randomly evolved the way they have. My senses tell me there is definitely intelligent design involved in creation.

[SereneHarmony]

On a similar vein there is an illusionist in the UK called Derren Brown who has a great show which often defies belief, but openly admits that his craft is 'a mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship'. He certainly seems able to influence peoples' minds, but don't think he has any diabolical qualities!

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by fwellers

I don't know man, I feel that there is way too much pattern and complexity in all of nature to have happened by pure chance. How old is universe supposed to be about 4 billion years ? I don't even think that's enough time for things to have randomly evolved the way they have. [I]My senses [/i]tell me there is definitely intelligent design involved in creation.

That's the emotional response kicking in. Feeling is not logicly based. Like I said before, there is nothing in complexity that denotes intentionality. Could you live in a universe with no intentionality?

The best guesses we have say this current universe is 4.5 billion years. How old is time itself though? How many other universes were there before us, how many will be after us? I still think the possiblities are infinate.

What senses are you specifically refering to?

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

That's the emotional response kicking in. Feeling is not logicly based. Like I said before, there is nothing in complexity that denotes intentionality. Could you live in a universe with no intentionality?

The best guesses we have say this current universe is 4.5 billion years. How old is time itself though? How many other universes were there before us, how many will be after us? I still think the possiblities are infinate.

What senses are you specifically refering to?

what senses ? I don't know. Lacking the logical training or mental focus to follow my thoughts all the way through, I think it's just my brain using logic that my conscious mind doesn't fully understand. It just seems illogical to me that all of "this" evolved by pure random chance.

Could I live in a universe with no intentionality ?
according to you, I already am.

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by fwellers

Could I live in a universe with no intentionality ?
according to you, I already am.

I'm slightly dissapointed I didn't get your feelings on the matter, because It might be insightful.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

I never personally knew Einstein so I don't know how smart he actually was. Keep in mind there are different types of intelligence. No doubt at math, Einstein was a sheer genius. At other aspects of life, who knows... I would have to research and study him. I am sure there is a social context for why he said and believed what he believed. Perhaps he wasn't as emotionally intelligent as he was mathmatically intelligent and he let his longing desire for more cloud his judgement. I don't know, you don't know.

As for patronizing, I don't particularly appreciate your tone as well. But really, I don't care about tone, it's insignificant to the content.


Other than citing Einstein's beliefs, do you have anything to actually attack my content? Just saying I am wrong doesn't actually prove it.


The strongest steel is forged in the hottest fire. I welcome any and all criticism as should anyone who subscribes to any belief.

Let's not even touch the subject of you comparing yourself to Einstein and your assumptions about him. You'll have to read up on him on your own.

I want to approach this, trying not to push your buttons, but still getting my point across. As far as "attacking" your content, I find it difficult to do, because you're not offering any real proof yourself. The proof I speak of is all around us. How do I prove a point to someone who can't look out the window and see how impossible it is for everything to be as it is, by pure chance. Consider, for a moment, that maybe your judgment is clouded by your ego's need to be able to explain everything so that there is no greater intelligence than yourself. As human beings, we find it hard to comprehend that anything or anyone could be as intelligent as us. Consider that, maybe, you can't comprehend or are afraid to face that you're not evolved enough to have the perspective of the greater intelligence that created life on earth. No matter how you word it, "luck," especially with all the intricate design all around us, sounds like superstition.

[Liminal Chris]

To me everything in the universe has ordered itself according to the laws of nature (non-contradiction, physics, etc). These are all logical principles. If we live in a logical world, why should we approach it illogically?

You make it seem like higher intelligence is somehow above logic, and I don't necessarily know if I can buy into that. Perhaps you are right and it is my ego. I don't exactly know, but I am totally okay with not knowing.



The Einstein thing, I am not comparing myself to him. I am just saying he is an expert at physics, not necessarily metaphysics. I don't know if he holds any particular insight that other people wouldn't have. I would have loved to pick his brain though.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

To me everything in the universe has ordered itself according to the laws of nature (non-contradiction, physics, etc). These are all logical principles. If we live in a logical world, why should we approach it illogically?

You make it seem like higher intelligence is somehow above logic, and I don't necessarily know if I can buy into that. Perhaps you are right and it is my ego. I don't exactly know, but I am totally okay with not knowing.



The Einstein thing, I am not comparing myself to him. I am just saying he is an expert at physics, not necessarily metaphysics. I don't know if he holds any particular insight that other people wouldn't have. I would have loved to pick his brain though.

See, I believe the logical thing to think is that structure came from structure. How is saying structure came from luck more logical?

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

I'm slightly dissapointed I didn't get your feelings on the matter, because It might be insightful.

sorry.
You mentioned to Dannyboy about things going by the laws of nature. But who made the laws of nature ? It doesn't seem logical that randomness would , or could create laws. Especially universal ones.

Could I live in a world without intention ? If that was the world I found myself in, then I guess I could. In this universe now, do you think I know the intention ? I think there must be though, because I believe there is intelligence behind creation, and I can't see intelligence without intention, even if that it is only the inent to play.

Actually I think that probably, the intent of "the creator" ( whatever that may be ), is probably minimal. To Play, or To exist, or To know itself. Something that simple.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by fwellers

sorry.
You mentioned to Dannyboy about things going by the laws of nature. But who made the laws of nature ? It doesn't seem logical that randomness would , or could create laws. Especially universal ones.

Could I live in a world without intention ? If that was the world I found myself in, then I guess I could. In this universe now, do you think I know the intention ? I think there must be though, because I believe there is intelligence behind creation, and I can't see intelligence without intention, even if that it is only the inent to play.

Actually I think that probably, the intent of "the creator" ( whatever that may be ), is probably minimal. To Play, or To exist, or To know itself. Something that simple.

This is exactly what I'm saying. There is a design for everything whether people want to believe it or not. The fact that there are universal laws at all suggests a higher intelligence.

[Liminal Chris]

If structure came from structure, it's turtles all the way down.



I don't know, I'm okay with that. I think the origins of the universe is an unfalsifiable question, I don't think we will ever have a real solution. I think Chance like God is another way of explaining it, but it's problematic in the same way that the God answer is also problematic. I think Chance is a good line of reasoning to challenge most hard religious beliefs though. I think there is merit in exploring your options, but ultimately we won't ever know.


As for universal laws, I think as long as there is "stuff" in the broad sense. There will be restrictions and laws. As soon as something has shape, there is space. As soon as something has thought, there is time. Time and space are the dimensions in which we exist, so we operate under the universal laws of time and space. Concerning yourself with anything outside of that is pure speculation and pretty irrelevant.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

If structure came from structure, it's turtles all the way down.



I don't know, I'm okay with that. I think the origins of the universe is an unfalsifiable question, I don't think we will ever have a real solution. I think Chance like God is another way of explaining it, but it's problematic in the same way that the God answer is also problematic. I think Chance is a good line of reasoning to challenge most hard religious beliefs though. I think there is merit in exploring your options, but ultimately we won't ever know.


As for universal laws, I think as long as there is "stuff" in the broad sense. There will be restrictions and laws. As soon as something has shape, there is space. As soon as something has thought, there is time. Time and space are the dimensions in which we exist, so we operate under the universal laws of time and space. Concerning yourself with anything outside of that is pure speculation and pretty irrelevant.

Why are these laws here? All your reasoning comes from these laws that were created by something. This should be proof enough that the random argument holds no water, so to speak.

[Liminal Chris]

The Chance argument holds as much Weight as God

Both require faith, the rest is personal preference



as for the rest, I thought I answered that in my last post. Why are there laws? As soon as something is confined within a dimension, there are rules and restrictions. Otherwise it wouldn't be confined in that dimension at all. Therefore, we are subject to the laws of time and space. They are here because they have to be in order for us to exist in Time and Space. We live in the dimensions of time and space, that is our lens and our perspective. We can't escape that.

The question of how we got here is completely unfalsifiable.

The question of why we got here is completely speculation

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

The Chance argument holds as much Weight as God

Both require faith, the rest is personal preference



as for the rest, I thought I answered that in my last post. Why are there laws? As soon as something is confined within a dimension, there are rules and restrictions. Otherwise it wouldn't be confined in that dimension at all. Therefore, we are subject to the laws of time and space. They are here because they have to be in order for us to exist in Time and Space. We live in the dimensions of time and space, that is our lens and our perspective. We can't escape that.

The question of how we got here is completely unfalsifiable.

The question of why we got here is completely speculation

Oh, man. I'm sorry, but you're proving yourself wrong. Laws = reasons for things happening. Which means - not by chance. Laws which are not random and are always the same are not by chance. If they were, they wouldn't be laws. By the way, I never said God. I said higher intelligence.

[Liminal Chris]

I believe you are completely misunderstanding what I am saying