Karma

[Adelina]

Can anyone explain this concept accurately?

If I take $5 from Mr. A, then the concept that is known as 'karma' would say that the universe would find a way to take $5 from me.
So Mr. B takes $5 from me, and the scales are balanced, as the concept of karma says.

But, what did Mr. A do to justify my taking the $5 from him? Doesn't that mean that he had a -$5 in his karma account that allowed it to be taken from him?
And, if Mr. B takes $5 from me, then doesn't that mean his account is then at -$5, and the universe is then ready to take $5 from him?

How does this concept make sense? If all energies are equal, and correctly accounted for, then how would the scales ever go to neutral and positive?

[Mags]

I tend to take an energetic perspective on karma - that what you put out, you get back (you attract experiences that are a vibrational match for your energy field).

[Anagogy]

From my perspective, karma is disharmony that is brought on by inharmonious experience. This misalignment in consciousness, or disharmony, must then be "worked off" though yet again more experience of the opposite nature.

There are many different types of karma -- such as racial, global, and individual karma.

It's important to realize there is choice and free will to be taken into account here. A balanced individual has more freewill then an unbalanced individual. The less karma you have, the more free will you have. The more karma, the less free will, respectively.

Another item to consider is that karma is willfully accepted. The discarnate realizes the imbalance in its consciousness, and chooses to rebalance itself though the necessary experiences which will provide the necessary awareness for the equalization of their energy field. Once they have acquired the necessary balance, their sphere of awareness expands, and limitations decrease.

All so called "bad experiences" are not the result of karma either. They could simply be an advanced spirit desiring to experience something in order to gain a better understanding of it.

I'm not sure if that helps answer your question.

[selfimprovement]

Actually, all Karma is is it's a pact that we make with ourselves to show us when we are being conditional and when we are being unconditional. IT is all about intent and where we are coming from. That is why 2 seemingly identical events can have very different Karmic outcomes.

Karma is the force that holds us back and keeps us down whenever we are being conditional. It is also the force that allows us to receive abundance whenever we are being unconditional.

It isn't about blame, rewards, punishment, etc. It is merely the outcome of our intent and focus. It is a great indicator to guide us to when we are being conditional/unconditional in our thoughts/words/actions.

[Adelina]

Thanks, but I feel these responses are a bit more in the air than the original question.

If you see the laws of karma on the ground level,
mathematically and energetically,
if the laws truly exist,
how would the energy of the system ever be balanced?

If you take, you will be taken from, but who does the taking? And from whom was taken?
If you see the events in a chain, in this model, there would be a net negative charge stuck in the system. This can't be an accurate model of reality, especially as we see humans progress and generally reach higher levels of consciousness and states of being.

So systematically, karma can't account for all exchange of energy, as there is also 'sloughing off' of 'negative karma' and an addition of positive to the system.

[dave marshall]

hi,

karma is based on ideas of 'time', and I can promise you that 'time' does not exist in the ways wehave been taught so karma also is a misunderstanding, it does not exist as a 'law'

dave

[Adelina]

so, what is karma?

is it a real law, or a relic of old religious teachings?

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by Adelina

so, what is karma?

is it a real law, or a relic of old religious teachings?

I'm in agreement with Mags. I have yet to see any reason to believe in karma as an objective law that balances our actions, etc. I can however believe in karma if it is another way of talking about the LOA.

[dave marshall]

Here is a definition: not mine but taken from another site.

"The philosophical explanation of karma can differ slightly between traditions, but the general concept is basically the same. Through the law of karma, the effects of all deeds actively create past, present, and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain and joy it brings to him/her and others. The results or 'fruits' of actions are called karma-phala. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well".


However with an exploration into time and consciousness you will see that although this is accurate in some fashion, it does need reinterprating into a modern understanding. There is no doubt in terms of other lifetimnes that there are effects and realtionships that span more than one lifetime but these are happening simultaniously and not life after life. karma then, int erms that we have a debt to pay from another life for our deeds is not true, but the idea that our actions within this life effect other lifetimes, both past and future, is true.

Dave

Dave

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by dave marshall

hi,

karma is based on ideas of 'time', and I can promise you that 'time' does not exist in the ways wehave been taught so karma also is a misunderstanding, it does not exist as a 'law'

dave

I disagree. The "law of Karma" is one thing, but the actual Pali definition of Karma is simply action.

The Pali term Karma literally means action or doing. Any kind of intentional action whether mental, verbal, or physical, is regarded as Karma. It covers all that is included in the phrase "thought, word and deed". Generally speaking, all good and bad action constitutes Karma.

[selfimprovement]

Originally Posted by Adelina

so, what is karma?

is it a real law, or a relic of old religious teachings?

"....What I have discovered over time is, Karma/dharma is really
you. You holding you back until you choose to look at and experience
life by being love instead of being fear-conditional. Until
you get that, you will continue to repeat, fear-based conditional
experiences as you hold yourself back repeating what you choose
to repeat until you allow love to be your guide instead of attempting
to control and manipulate your experiences through
conditional fear-based choices. ...."
- The Choice Is Mine

There is an excellent chapter in this book that gives a very clear answer to Karma/dharma. At least it made it clear for me. Any other explanation that I've seen just confused me.

[selfimprovement]

Originally Posted by Adelina

Can anyone explain this concept accurately?

If I take $5 from Mr. A, then the concept that is known as 'karma' would say that the universe would find a way to take $5 from me.
So Mr. B takes $5 from me, and the scales are balanced, as the concept of karma says.

But, what did Mr. A do to justify my taking the $5 from him? Doesn't that mean that he had a -$5 in his karma account that allowed it to be taken from him?
And, if Mr. B takes $5 from me, then doesn't that mean his account is then at -$5, and the universe is then ready to take $5 from him?

How does this concept make sense? If all energies are equal, and correctly accounted for, then how would the scales ever go to neutral and positive?

It doesn't make sense because karma isn't about keeping a balance sheet.

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by selfimprovement

It doesn't make sense because karma isn't about keeping a balance sheet.

Then what is it about? I genuinely want to know since my own understanding of it makes me totally doubt its reality. Again, if we're defining karma simply as the universe reflecting back to us our own intentions and the consequences of our own actions, both "good" and "evil", then I am totally on board. Otherwise, it just seems like another religious belief that should be discarded at a certain point in one's personal evolution, like sin, hell, a vindictive, high strung god and so on.

[dave marshall]

the way most see karma it is about actions from past lives/events influencing future lives/events, that we 'pay' in some fashion for 'bad' actions and get rewarded for 'good actions.

If time does not exist in linear terms then this cannot be the case, as there are no past ot future lives, therefor the traditional view of karma, cannot exist.

It is then just another bit of religious misunderstanding and should be thrown away along with amny other limited ideas.

The idea expressed by ecco is just the nature of the loa, our intentions, actions, thoughts and deeds have effects in the world and beyond that we are responsible for.

Dave

[selfimprovement]

Originally Posted by Ecce Homo

Then what is it about? I genuinely want to know since my own understanding of it makes me totally doubt its reality. Again, if we're defining karma simply as the universe reflecting back to us our own intentions and the consequences of our own actions, both "good" and "evil", then I am totally on board. Otherwise, it just seems like another religious belief that should be discarded at a certain point in one's personal evolution, like sin, hell, a vindictive, high strung god and so on.

The best source that I've found for explaining karma in a way that makes sense is in the material called The Choice Is Mine. It also explains ego, revenge, god, etc. in a way that when you're done will give you the understanding and truth of the core of what religions have been created from...

It's like religion is like the packaging wrapped around the gift and everyone is arguing about the packaging ("no, the blue wrapping is what a package should be wrapped in, any other color is just plain WRONG!", or "If you don't have a bow on your package, then you're just plain SCREWED UP!") Everyone then forgets that it's really about what is INSIDE the package.

This material is just the gift inside the package. No wrapping, no bows, no fancy glitter on the top, it's just about you connecting with who you really are.

Sorry to get a bit off topic..... It just seemed natural to go there.

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by dave marshall

the way most see karma it is about actions from past lives/events influencing future lives/events, that we 'pay' in some fashion for 'bad' actions and get rewarded for 'good actions.

If time does not exist in linear terms then this cannot be the case, as there are no past ot future lives, therefor the traditional view of karma, cannot exist.

It is then just another bit of religious misunderstanding and should be thrown away along with amny other limited ideas.

The idea expressed by ecco is just the nature of the loa, our intentions, actions, thoughts and deeds have effects in the world and beyond that we are responsible for.

Dave

Yes this is how must people understand it, but that is not what it's about. The Buddha talked about karma as doing, a thought, action, or inaction. Karma itself is just the word for an action.

The concept of past lives and future lives, in relation to Karma, came into being when the Caste system was established in India. It was a miss-use of a yogic concept in order to maintain a power relationship between the higher and the lower castes of society. The priests perverted some of the ideas in the Gitas to impose this system. Karma was the mechanism by which, if they did their ordained job, they would move to the next level in the next life.

The problem with this is it is not how Karma was intended, or what it really means. Karma is about being wholesome of deed, mind, and word in order to end suffering. The Buddha believed that un-wholesome karma was a cause of human suffering. Wholesome karma means that your deeds, thoughts, and words are all in agreement, and wholesome doesn't necessarily mean good. So in that sense Karma is the method by which you either transcend suffering or remain in Samsara.

To me it all boils down to consistent action, thought, and word. TO me Karma is much more immediate. It's about being responsible for your own situation and suffering and thus having the power to rise above it.

That's just my relatively uninformed view.

[dave marshall]

hi,

for me it is easier to disregard to idea altogether and I would suggest others do the same, If you accept there are consequenses for your action and you take responsibility for them why call it karma?

The important thing is for those people who believe that theiur life is somehow limited owing to a past life and karma, they can release themselves from thier self imposed karmic prison and get on with their live. my hope is that if someone who beleives in karma reads this thread they will begin to question if they are really held by some past life or are free in this life and in questioning this limited idea they will ensure they miss alot of self imposed difficulties,

Dave

[Liminal Chris]

I have had Karma explained to me in two ways.


First, the simplistic overarching Divine justice in the world. Bad people do bad things, and they recieve bad things. Good people do good things, and they recieve good things. In my opinion, this is too easy. There are too many cases where bad things happen to good people or to people who can't even make conscious decisions yet.


Second, opportunity. Looking at Karma in this light moves it from passive to active. Everything that happens, good or bad, presents you with an opportunity to do the right thing. If something bad happens to you, you should recognize that you have the power to turn it arround at any point, but whatever misforune befalls you is probably the result of not doing the right thing in the past. In many ways, that realiztaion is liberating because it allows you to redeem yourself and restore balance. It's very similar to the christian idea of turning the other cheek but with a Budhist twist.

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by dave marshall

hi,
If you accept there are consequenses for your action and you take responsibility for them why call it karma?

Because it's one word rather than the 11 you used to describe it. It's a good concept that doesn't have a good direct translation into English.

[daj]

I always think of Karma as being a human concept created out of fear.

[dave marshall]

an misunderstanding,

dave

[nightdiamond]

Hi everyone,

I think the concept of karma has too many difficulties as it is, and there so many different interpretations of karma too, which only adds to it. People interpret karma in so many ways as it is, even before we can demonstrate that it is a real thing...

And that's when the problems kick in, because some people develop some crazy explanations for things based on karma.... or have used it to justify certain injustices too....

I remember a 'psychic' self development program where it said that though it welcomed it's practicer's different beliefs, it prefer not to rely on ancient concepts like reincarnation and karma, because they were developed and taught during a time when many people believed the world was flat, or the universe revolved around our planet, or believed that demi-gods actually came in human form and performed great miracles which explain monuments and circumstances of today..... it was the Silva Method.....


I've always found the idea interesting, but I soon noticed it created a lot frustration trying to figure it out, because the way it is suppose to happen is not very obvious or easy to verify... you have to rely on someone else's interpretation of it, yet never have first hand understanding of it yourself....

I think, if it is at all possible, it is best to somehow find a way to verify this concept for ourselves so we can end the questions (for ourselves )...

Thanks for letting me chime in, take care everyone....

[Anagogy]

Personally, I believe karma has a factual basis. I've perused through many transcripts of people who underwent past life, and or, inter-life hypnotic regression. There are many fascinating books on this particular subject. I encourage anyone curious about this topic to seek them out.

From what I can ascertain, and as simply as I can tell, karma is strictly for our spiritual benefit. It has nothing to do with punishment, retribution, or revenge. Rather, it has everything to do with our understanding of the nuts, bolts and long-term implications of our actions toward others. It exists simply to give us understanding of the bigger picture, how our actions affect the larger self, of which we are all apart. It is the law of one, or the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Let's say you kill someone, for example. You eventually die and as a means of working out this karma you have generated you choose to come back and experience being cut down in the prime of your life to know what it is like. This wouldn't necessarily mean you would be murdered -- that would be a rather drastic means of working off the karma, and it would just shift the negative load to someone else rather than getting it cleared away in general. Even if the former victim was your murderer, the working off of that karma doesn't involve them becoming a murderer themselves.

The karma exists in order to engender compassion. We have to understand what its like to be on the other side of the fence. The compassion engendered brings us closer together. This is what soul evolution is all about.

If you want to release all karma, you have to forgive everyone unconditionally, which is no small order for most people. Usually, the forgiveness part doesn't come fully until after its been physically worked out.

In forgiveness lies the stopping of all karma. This is why A Course In Miracles is all about forgiveness minimizing the need for time. Time is the stage where karma acts out its role.

[Shain McVay]

Well I'll say from my experiance karma does exist because, as i've seen, it can be observed. What I learned is Karma is just cause and effect, action and reaction. I've also learned that it is complicated on how it will reutrn to you, bits and peices, several karmic debts at once?

And I also think that universe works with experiance, if you take $5 from a billionaire when you're on the streets I don't think the universe will take that $5 back when your daily income is only $5.50.

And I also don't think it works in exactness like that. If you took that $5 from his wallet at exactly 5:23PM at the grocery store, I don't it will return to you exactly in the same way.

But here is an important thing that I have learned from Maharishi Mehesh Yogi, Karma is always evolutionary when it happens. You should always evolve from it in some way when it comes back to you. So essentially all karma is good.

I have also heard that all things that happen to you is karmic, but as far as how did the first actions take place to make the karma I have no idea.

I have also heard that once you become enlightened and move on your karmic debt is acually given to your children. Everyone has a mountain of karma, so your karmic debt isn't going to be nuetralized through your lifetime.

Also I beleive thoughts are karmic as well; if you think negitive thoughts about others they'll think negitively about you.

[tinkerbell]

I think Karma is created out of fear.

If you do something bad to someone, something bad will come to you. That to me is Karma.

But I don't believe in it as we create our own reality. Why would we want something bad to happen to us?

I think Dave Marshall said it best (paraphrased) "forget about it!"

tinkerbell

[mncz]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

In forgiveness lies the stopping of all karma. This is why A Course In Miracles is all about forgiveness minimizing the need for time. Time is the stage where karma acts out its role.

Oh my god, I was really startled reading this.
Thing is, there was (she recently passed away) an enlightened woman in Estonia, somewhat close to where I live, and she would teach, heal and write books about the path of unconditional forgiveness as a way to stop the cycle of karma. Her name is Luule Viilma, and her teachings are having a profound effect on my life now.

Always wonderfully weird to see how different people halfway across the world are independently inspired to give the same message.

[TheKarmicLaws]

Is what I use as a sidebar to my conscience. It's the asparagus to my Kobe T-bone.

Karma is unique to each individual's experiences and paradigms. Karma, like Magick, is only as powerful as the faith we put into it.