Origination of consciousness

[tekart]

From where and when did consciousness come into being - or - when did humans realize they were conscious?
December 5, 2006

If you believe in evolution then at some point in the evolution process we humans became 'conscious'. So when did this happen and why? Was it that we are consciousness but it took years of evolution to get our brains to the point of capable of self awareness? Or is it that our brains became so good at thinking and creativity, that we have created what we think we are self aware?

If you don't believe in evolution then I guess the answer is easy, but I'd rather not quote scripture since we can only guess at its accuracy. After all, it was man that wrote the text.


Has a tree ever had consciousness? Are they aware of who they are? Can they make a decision, change their life direction, actively help others? It appears not, so why is it that we are the only ones, yet many people claim that trees (all object actually) are consciousness as well?

We will probably never know for sure, but I can't help but think about it...it's fun.

[tekart]

...at all? Interesting.

[Antarananda]

All sentient and insentient matter has consciousness - rocks, plants, animals; the only difference is that the consciousness of a rock or plant or animal is more inert, and is "expressed" only in a limited manner. Human beings, of course, are the only species on this planet with self-referring awareness, i.e "I am conscious that I am conscious".

[tekart]

OK, so how do you know this? How is this known?

Don't get me wrong, I am not questioning your knowledge, just questioning the idea or concept.

[Antarananda]

Through glimpses of Cosmic consciousness, known as Samadhi in Hinduism, and Kensho in Zen, obtained through deep meditation over the past 15 years. I understand Salvia divinorum can also give glimpses into this all-pervading consciousness, but I have no experience with using it.

[Rocket Surgery]

Consciousness is present in all things because all things are a product of consciousness. That is, of course, what subjective reality is all about. If one believes in an objective universe where this was all created out of nothing and the laws of evolution determine our destiny, then it will remain quite difficult, if not impossible, to ever accept the notion that a dog, a fish, or a tree also has consciousness, let alone a rock or a molecule of Polonium 210.

Self-awareness to the extent that humans experience it is but a product of brain complexity and function. When anything is wired to the point where it can record and preserve memory of its experiences within its physical form, I believe that is the point at which so-called self-awareness happens.

Imagine yourself existing not here on the physical plane, but on the other side where you are all thought and energy. You decide to incarnate for a short time as a pheasant for your own reasons. Because a pheasant's brain lacks the capacity for holding much, if any, contemplative memory functions, your "self-awareness" will be quite limited. Does that mean that the essence of you is not still consciousness? Or does it mean that experiencing the universe as a pheasant yields information from a completely non-human point of view? Some people, in fact, have great difficulty telling the difference between pheasants and humans. (see Dick Cheney.)

What about Alzheimer's patients who lose their ability to record/retrieve their memories, and seem to live now only in the present. Have they somehow "devolved" to lesser forms of intelligence and consciousness? Of course not. It's clearly a physical handicap, and we recognize that they remain the same conscious being we've always known. They are simply limited in their interactivity with the physical universe by "faulty wiring."

If you wish to experience a more limited self-awareness without reincarnating as a pheasant or otherwise, it's not hard to do. Drink enough alcohol and you'll start to understand how the less-intelligent creatures perceive their environment. Your dreaming ego is another example of limited self-awareness. Would you ever say that it wasn't "you" that experienced the dream? And yet, while experiencing the dream -- unless you are lucid dreaming -- you are completely unaware of your other reality with all its history and memories, etc. The memories of the dream are fleeting and do not record into your physical brain at all unless you awaken during the dream, and then only fragments unless your waking ego makes a real effort to commit them to memory. But you were still conscious and self-aware during the dream, at least of your dreaming self, that is.

[Antarananda]

I like the way you write, Rocket Surgery. The Polonium 210 and Dick Cheney references were a nice touch!

Cool nick, too.

[tekart]

Thanks Rocket Surgery, that helps a little.

I know from what I have read that it is really impossible to understand this fully with the mind. I also know from reading and experience that the mind, in order to understand, will create answers to questions it does not know.

So, without giving this a lot of deep thought this morning, and without coffee I might add, based on your thoughts is it that having a memory enables us to become or be Aware, Enlightened, etc? Enlightenment goes beyond the mind (again I've read), however without the mind then you cannot know that you are enlightened correct?

If you could choose to come back as something else, why would you choose something other than a human being. On top of that, why choose anything less than a human being with the mental capacity to become and understand Enlightenment.

I keep hearing and reading theories, and some contradict themselves, so my conclusion so far is that no one really knows. The term Enlightenment, I am start to think, it another theory to explain the unexplainable. Much like the creation of gods to explain the season and heaven to explain the afterlife.

I do still like Tony Parsons thoughts:

• "This is it, that's all there is".
• "There is nobody"
• "You can't find something that isn't hidden"
• "It is happening to know one"

[Antarananda]

tekart...

Originally Posted by tekart

I know from what I have read that it is really impossible to understand this fully with the mind. I also know from reading and experience that the mind, in order to understand, will create answers to questions it does not know.

Indeed. The first step is transcending the mind. The very first line in the Yoga Sutras, a classic treatise on mind and consciousness says "Yoga is the cessation of all fluctuations in mind." It's not as difficult as it sounds; you don't need to meditate in a cave for 50 years in order to be able to achieve it

Originally Posted by tekart

So, without giving this a lot of deep thought this morning, and without coffee I might add, based on your thoughts is it that having a memory enables us to become or be Aware, Enlightened, etc? Enlightenment goes beyond the mind (again I've read), however without the mind then you cannot know that you are enlightened correct?

No, memory has nothing to do with enlightenment. Enlightenment has also been described as the "no-mind" state. Pure awareness, pure "Being" is separate from the mind. The mind is not essential for awareness of the Self, and this awareness has always existed separate from the body and mind. You can use the mind to transcend the mind, and once done, you realize that this "I" you always thought was your body and mind doesn't exist anymore, and just the universal "I" of pure awareness remains. I hope that made sense!

Originally Posted by tekart

If you could choose to come back as something else, why would you choose something other than a human being. On top of that, why choose anything less than a human being with the mental capacity to become and understand Enlightenment.

It is not so much "choosing" what life-form you reincarnate as, but rather being unconsciously propelled into a certain incarnation as a result of samskaras, or latent impressions and desires that are embedded in the unconscious mind and subtle bodies. So, in many people, behavioral impulses of a lower consciousness may express predominantly, such as greed, anger, the constant urge to experience delight through eating, or drinking, or sex, and so the bodies of animals that exhibit those traits would correspondingly be more suitable in the next incarnation to satiate these urges.

I recognize that some of this might sound "exotic" and that my thought is strongly shaped by my cultural background, but I have verified much through my inner intuitive knowledge as a byproduct of meditation as well. I also trust the enlightened ones, such s the Buddha, my own spiritual Master etc, to convey the truth. The Masters have all said that the last desire at the time of death dictates what body "you" will assume once again. If at the moment of death one is truly free from all desire, then there is liberation, or nirvana.

Originally Posted by tekart

I keep hearing and reading theories, and some contradict themselves, so my conclusion so far is that no one really knows. The term Enlightenment, I am start to think, it another theory to explain the unexplainable. Much like the creation of gods to explain the season and heaven to explain the afterlife.

It's not a theory. But it can only be verified by using the tools which can give the experience. The tools are meditation and introspective discovery of the real source of the sense of "I". It cannot be realized through mental gymnastics

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by Antarananda

Through glimpses of Cosmic consciousness, known as Samadhi in Hinduism, and Kensho in Zen, obtained through deep meditation over the past 15 years. I understand Salvia divinorum can also give glimpses into this all-pervading consciousness, but I have no experience with using it.

Boy can it. Salvia def unlocked a door for me I can never close. I have glimpsed this cosmic consciousness over 15 times now(with almost every psycedelic you can think of) and I have gotten there numerous times without the aid of any substance just deep thinking and meditation. Your karma and fear can REALLY delude this all-pervading consciousness though and I have been on a mission to cleanse my soul ever sense.

[Rocket Surgery]

Originally Posted by tekart

So, without giving this a lot of deep thought this morning, and without coffee I might add, based on your thoughts is it that having a memory enables us to become or be Aware, Enlightened, etc? Enlightenment goes beyond the mind (again I've read), however without the mind then you cannot know that you are enlightened correct?

If you could choose to come back as something else, why would you choose something other than a human being. On top of that, why choose anything less than a human being with the mental capacity to become and understand Enlightenment.

I believe Enlightenment is something we all already have, just at a higher level of consciousness than where our waking ego resides. There is only ONE mind in all of known existence, and the person you think of as yourself is but a small portion of it. Your purpose is to serve God/Goddess/All-That-Is by experiencing existence through your own unique perspective over countless lifetimes.

Your "mind" is also my "mind" which is the same "mind" of every person reading this forum and every single entity that exists anywhere at any time. Your perception of that mind is necessarily narrow so that you may focus without distraction on the experiences at hand. This is the best possible scenario for spiritual evolution and growth.

When your physical body "dies," you will awaken to a much larger reality in the non-physical realms where you will no longer perceive yourself as the limited human personality you now believe yourself to be, but rather a greater, more enlightened "student" of the cosmos who has lived many, many incarnations that you can recall in detail at will. It will be similar to how you feel when you awaken each day from your dreams. You don't LOSE the self you thought you were within the dream; you simply realize and remember that your dream self is but a small part of your much greater self.

Depending on where you are at with your studies in the physical realms, you will choose to "reincarnate" or not into another lifetime to further your education.

There are many possible scenarios why one would choose to reincarnate as other than a human being. Perhaps you just lived a long and bitter life engaged in negative political and business gains, and spent most of your free time blowing tiny little game birds to smithereens for kicks.

Upon death and "awakening" to your higher perspective, you understand how this behavior created much bad karma for your spirit and you need to erase that karma quickly. So, you then choose to reincarnate for a brief time as a tiny little game bird who's more than likely to be blown to smithereens by some other self-important gasbag for sport, thereby instantly creating empathy within your soul for the pain and suffering of these creatures, and ensure that in your next human incarnation, you won't be so easily persuaded into such activities. Make sense?

Don't confuse "mind" with "brain." The brain is a physical organ which acts as a liaison between the physical body and the spirit that controls it. It's the interface for our Earth Suits, as I like to call them, translating the high-frequency thoughts our higher selves use to communicate into lower frequencies that our waking egos can understand.

~ RS

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

RS very nicely said, can't say I disagree with any of that.

[moviestar]

If you could choose to come back as something else, why would you choose something other than a human being.

Well I would choose to be an eagle, lol.

Consciousness... there are many philosophical concepts about it. I'll tell about a strictly functional explanation of consciousness, maybe you'll like it.

When a living organism achieves a certain degree of complexity through evolution it must find a way to function better. At a point where an organism has more than one choice of what to do now it must somehow decide what to do. If it doesn't make a decision it will end up doing everything at once and block itself.
Imagine you have these simple choices: eat now, defecate, copulate. How does the organism decide what to do? There must be somekind of decision center that is responsible for the whole organism. The organism depends on that decision center to survive and to be able to perform complex tasks (like eat now, then copulate).
So this is where consciousness was introduced by evolution. It is a way for the organism to be able to perform decisions.
Pay attention to what you are really doing in your consciousness. At every moment of your life you are simply making decisions. That's all. You are assessing every thought, figuring out what to do next, what to do, what to do? Even "higher" spiritual thoughts are just decisions made, beliefs are formed to directly affect what you will do, how will you behave...

Somehow the complexity of the human organism got to the point where it started to make decisions about what to do with consciousness, what is it? Is it somekind of higher entity than this body? Does it maintain after death? And this is where the human misery began, but that is a completely different story...

[Joshiepoo3000]

Conciousness happens only in the present. The present is a fraction of time that is so small it cannot be measured. The present is the only place where choices are made. Only one choice is ever made at a time. Even if you multitask or grab a number of objects at one time, it is still one choice and one movement at a time. Being that it happens, but cannot be observed explains that it does not exist. It has a place in time, but not a place in space. This is our subjective reality. It is a reality that is parallel to the objective reality and never intersects. Metamorphosis occurs between the two, which explains art, literature, etc. This is a transformation from one reality to the other. All things that have a place in both time and space exist. Time and Space combine in what we know as objective reality. The conciousness can still be floating around in nonexistence when the body dies. It just doesn't have a voice to speak through. This is where we get into ghost theories.

[Jason McIsaac]

Here's a historical perspective re: the origin of consciousness. I think Jaynes defines consciousness as having a 'sense of subjectivity'. Interesting.

Perspective of Mind: Julian Jaynes

[mtrimpe]

So cool, I just found the Julian Jaynes book on the bi-cameral mind in my search for collective consciousness and was looking for a thread here to share my amazing discovery.

I really like the perspective that once, the voices in our head were like gods to us. Can you imagine a perfect inner silence for all your life and then suddenly hearing a voice telling you to build a pyramid? That is so amazing! I'd go do it!

It also really explains to me why almost all of humanity slavishly follows the chattering of our inner dialogue. It's because this inner dialogue eventually became damaging and over the last 3000 years we have developed a new plane of consciousness above that, let's call it Intention-Manifestation

I also suddenly understand the message of Eve tasting from the forbidden fruit. It was probably even true that it actually was Eve (the woman) who was first to develop an understanding of right and wrong, who was first to develop a consciousness.

[karen beck]

yes indeed i too find it perceivable that it would be a female energy

since none of us are ultimately male or female, it is not any sort of judgement

it does seem that the feminine side has always been most intuitive

known as the nesters, not surprising they would lead us home

smile and be happy