What's your beef with Christianity?

[mercuryrising]

I've noticed that many people on this forum seem to have a particular hatred for Christianity. I can see a critique of Christianity from a historical perspective, but most of the arguments are against the teachings of Christ. I honestly don't get that.

So what's your beef? I would like to understand and I think it would make a good discussion.

[Mato Kinze]

When I was in High School, I really rebelled against the whole Judeo-Christian model of spirituality. I felt in myself a lot of what I see others here write about religion and "God".

For me, I got caught up in the ludicrous dogma and hypocrisy I witnessed being spewed from so many who called themselve "good Christians." I equated the religion with these people and denounced it at every opportunity as vociferously as I could. Much in the same way I see happening here quite often.

At some point, though, I separated spirituality from religion. Once I did that, I was able to see religion - any religion - for what it is: simply a means to an end. A very personal means to an end. When I internalized that concept, a whole new world opened for me from a spiritual perspective.

I was able to listen to anyone talk about any religion with an eye to finding the Truth in it vs. the man-made dogma. And I came to see so many consistencies from faith to faith that I couldn't ignore what seemed to be a fairly universal human experience.

I still disagree with a lot of the dogma surrounding the Christian faith, but I also appreciate the Truth that lies within it.

[bellemeadows]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

I've noticed that many people on this forum seem to have a particular hatred for Christianity. I can see a critique of Christianity from a historical perspective, but most of the arguments are against the teachings of Christ. I honestly don't get that.

So what's your beef? I would like to understand and I think it would make a good discussion.

I love Jesus, and work with him as an ascended master; I see him as perhaps the master of masters.

However, Christian churches historically have been TOXIC to anyone with different beliefs. The Catholic church is a beaurocratic organization with aims at governing the world. The first recorded genocide was perpetrated by the Catholic church against Christians, the Cathars. They decimated them, and distroyed their leadership, so now what once was a separate country is a region in France.

When folks speak of Christianity, they usually speak of it from a perspective of Christian theology. To me, that theology and the numerous Christian organizations are more about perpetuating their organizations than acting like Christ. Christianity is soooo far from what Christ taught, I'm pretty sure Jesus, a Jew, would hardly recognize it.

Still, spirituality can be found in all religious organizations. I love Christians who are truly spiritual, and living in VA I know many of them. If their religion feeds their spirituality, I am glad for them, and I respect them enough that I would never try to debate with them over the pros and cons of their path.

Blessings from Belle,

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

most of the arguments are against the teachings of Christ.

Hmmm. I haven't seen that around here. I usually see a critique of the implementation of Christian principles or the hypocrisy of the religion. It seems to me a lot of people can get behind what Christ taught while still having contempt for "the Church."

[fwellers]

I am one of those who have a beef with Christianity.
I was a Christian for many years. Totally in love with Christ. However, I always had a sneaky suspicion that there was something wrong with my understanding, because I knew on a deep level that no loving God, least of all my Jesus, could EVER send people to eternal torment. Not for anything. Especially just because they didn't believe in Him.

Then one day my education began. I started finding out things about the terrible translational errors in the authorized versions of the bible. I found out how the whole doctrine of hell was concocted by man. I was so so happy to finally learn that in the end of time, God will be all in all. Nobody will be in hell.

I became what many call a scriptural universalist. I spent over a year, closer to two, debating this on Christian forums. During that time, I saw what I believe to be the coldest cruelest hearts on the planet. Every single one of the christians rejected out of hand, everything that was presented to them. All people with my beliefs were branded as heretics, demons, etc...

This is all just the short story. Anyway, since then, my belief in the bible as the sole truth has totally unraveled ( happily ) and I allowed my mind to become open to many many more things, realizing more and more about the nature of truth and how no person or group of people could ever have a 'LOCK' on it.

Concurrently, I started seeing christianity for what it was.
There are the conservative, fundy, evangelicals who are out and out blatant haters. they say their not, but they are. the people who would enforce christian rule on our country and the world if they only could. I cannot stand them at all.

Then there is the avg run of the mill christan , who, has been trained from early on, that the mind is evil. If ANYTHING. i mean ANYTHING, tries to open your mind to ANYTHING that would discount one single jot of the orthodoxy that they are taught in church, it is to be discounted as evil. Don't give it a foothold for a second. That is just cultish !!!!
These christians, when pressed or debated with, will never in a million years admit to themselves that there isn't an eternal hell that millions will suffer in for all of eternity.

I think the bottom line for me, is that any supposed god who would have that much hate and meanness as to maintain an eternal torture chamber for so many , just because the didn't believe in him, is a million times worse than all the world's despots put together. And those who defend such a position, I have very little use for. They are either mindless sheep, or blackhearted hatemongers. I can't see too much middle ground.

Mostly, I think the majority of christians are just trapped in the cult. But to the ones who defend so vehemently the eternal hell, they are more than just trapped. And to the pastors and preachers, and those who have been educated, and know better, yet still teach this horrible religion, I reserve the most of my contempt.

I don't go around thinking about these things, because you can probably tell from the tambre of my post that I would be dead from heart-ache if I did. That's why I got out of those forums. It's been a long while since I've made a post like this, and I guess it's pent up a bit. <snicker>

Sorry so long of a post. Hope I'm still welcome here after spewing all this venom at a whole group like that. But you asked.

[jawillie]

I love the teachings of Christ, it is just man's interpretations of those teachings that I have a problem with. I love the teachings of all the spiritual "greats"... and I have always, always, always said they are saying the same thing. (more or less)

I am reading The Third Jesus by Deepak Chopra... beautiful book!!!

I am not fond of Christianity, the religion, at all. I simply don't believe it, never have. I am also not fond of the deep corruption and hypocrisy you find in the church. And Baptists downright scare me!!! lol (j/k... some do, though!!!)

[12345]

Originally Posted by fwellers

I think the bottom line for me, is that any supposed god who would have that much hate and meanness as to maintain an eternal torture chamber for so many , just because the didn't believe in him, is a million times worse than all the world's despots put together.

I can completely understand your point, but at the same time, I truly believe God does indeed give us an eternal afterlife of what *we* truly desired on earth. For those who create a personal hell on earth—through violence, hatred, and other evils—God said he would give them just that eternally. I honestly don’t know if hell is physical brimstone and fire, but just as I believe heaven is the place where all things are made perfect for those who desired what is genuinely good on earth, I do believe that hell is the place where evil is made perfect for those who genuinely desired evil on earth; I don’t think there’s a more perfect evil than the torture and destruction of life.

God bless to all.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by 12345

I can completely understand your point, but at the same time, I truly believe God does indeed give us an eternal afterlife of what *we* truly desired on earth. For those who create a personal hell on earth—through violence, hatred, and other evils—God said he would give them just that eternally. I honestly don’t know if hell is physical brimstone and fire, but just as I believe heaven is the place where all things are made perfect for those who desired what is genuinely good on earth, I do believe that hell is the place where evil is made perfect for those who genuinely desired evil on earth; I don’t think there’s a more perfect evil than the torture and destruction of life.

God bless to all.

Wow !!
And all that because someone didn't say "I believe Jesus is God" ?

Also, do you really think that a smart god would hold a person on earth, who has limited understanding of eternal thing, responsible for any choice made while in that state, for all of eternity ?
I see no justice in such a god.

[Ree]

I grew up in a strictly Christian home and attended a fundamental church. This church gave me nightmares when I was a very small child and as soon as I was able I got away, very fast and very far.

It took me most of my life to get over that experience and to begin my own spiritual seeking. I have come to believe Jesus was an extremely enlightened man who walked this planet and came to teach wonderful lessons. And I believe what Jesus came to teach was pretty much hi-jacked by man the way many claim true Islam is being hi-jacked by extremists.

Never will I darken the door of a "Christian" institution again. It is a tool used by man to control and to keep ignorant the masses who, if enlightened, could truly bring about change in this world.

[fwellers]

It is a tool used by man to control and to keep ignorant the masses who, if enlightened, could truly bring about change in this world.

Well said. I wholeheartedly agree with you.

[Jennihul]

I think for most people here, 'hatred' is a pretty strong word. I doubt most people hate Christianity.

The church itself has created the conflict due to their veering from simply teaching and guiding to trying to control.

The hypocrisy, controlling, punishing, conditional love and conflicts of interest, the money, lying, abuse on many levels, power tripping, hiding of truths to further their own interests....these are the things that turn off people to Christianity.

I've never had a problem with the teachings of Christ. (If the DaVinci Code has a shred of possibility, I am related to the man so who can complain about a distant relative who happened to be an avatar at the least and the risen Son of God at the most? )

Jennifer

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Hmmm. I haven't seen that around here. I usually see a critique of the implementation of Christian principles or the hypocrisy of the religion. It seems to me a lot of people can get behind what Christ taught while still having contempt for "the Church."

Perhaps I went a bit over-board... just a tad. Mainly, I see this discussion of Christianity creeping into other threads. Rather than steer other threads off-topic, I thought it would be more appropriate that it be it's own topic.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Ree

I grew up in a strictly Christian home and attended a fundamental church. This church gave me nightmares when I was a very small child and as soon as I was able I got away, very fast and very far.

It took me most of my life to get over that experience and to begin my own spiritual seeking. I have come to believe Jesus was an extremely enlightened man who walked this planet and came to teach wonderful lessons. And I believe what Jesus came to teach was pretty much hi-jacked by man the way many claim true Islam is being hi-jacked by extremists.

Never will I darken the door of a "Christian" institution again. It is a tool used by man to control and to keep ignorant the masses who, if enlightened, could truly bring about change in this world.

So what do you suggest? Jesus is an enlightened man. You don't wish to enter an institution that studies his teachings. Furthermore, you think that they are trying to keep people from becoming like Christ himself.

Your argument seems to lead to banishing Jesus to obscurity because you see a no-win situation.

As far as controlling the masses, materialism has been much more effective. Compare how many advertisements promising to make us all rock stars you and I view per day in comparison to religious commentary.

[mercuryrising]

I guess I should put up what I believe.

Central to all religion is unconditional love. The power of faith orbits around that nucleus. I honor and learn from all people's traditions, but I share a certain relationship with my own. I don't think my religion is the pure, monopoly on Truth. I know that I haven't found a method to reason away God. I guessing most Christians wouldn't consider me a Christian if we got into a real conversation. I accepted a long time ago that people don't think like I do and I don't expect them to.

I agree with most of the sentiments made so far, in actuality. Some of Jesus' teachings have been removed or manipulated to fit a power structure. Instead of being taught how to believe, people are taught what to believe. There's a big difference.

In terms of religion starting wars, mass mind control, etc. I think you could easily replace "God" with some other concept that unifies people to do what you want. The actual religion doesn't have much to do with it.

[Ree]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

So what do you suggest? Jesus is an enlightened man. You don't wish to enter an institution that studies his teachings. Furthermore, you think that they are trying to keep people from becoming like Christ himself.

Your argument seems to lead to banishing Jesus to obscurity because you see a no-win situation.

As far as controlling the masses, materialism has been much more effective. Compare how many advertisements promising to make us all rock stars you and I view per day in comparison to religious commentary.

You have misunderstood my statement. My point is that Christianity has been hi-jacked. I can and do study the teachings of Jesus without entering an institution. I do so because Christian institutions do NOT exist to further Jesus's teaching, but to self-perpetuate and to further their own goals.

I don't see where I have argued to 'banish Jesus to obscurity because I see a no-win situation.' (Please point that out to me in my post, because if it is there I misspoke.) What I argue is that Jesus's teachings have been overshadowed by, as another poster said, "The hypocrisy, controlling, punishing, conditional love and conflicts of interest, the money, lying, abuse on many levels, power tripping, hiding of truths to further their own interests."

Your statement comparing the methods used by Christianity to control the masses to advertisements and commercialism is laughable. I have yet to see a commercial that claims if I don't buy their product I'll spend an eternity in hell, burning in a non-consuming fire and suffering never-ending intense thirst and indescribable agony. Now, THAT is control!

Let's talk about the Christian belief that one's reward is in heaven, some invisible place that exists in the clouds or beyond where the streets are paved with gold and there's a mansion with my name on it if I only follow the rules. And by the way, when the plate is passed I should put my hard-earned money in it for the Christian church to use here and now, since MY reward will come after I have died. In this way, Christianity convinces folks that it's honorable to be poor and deprived here in this life. And why? So those poor folks will give the little money that they have to the Christian institution. How convenient for Christianity that they can go about instructing us all to look for our reward in heaven. Can't be disproved, can it?

[Mato Kinze]

The commonality that I'm seeing in most of these posts is that it's not Christianity as a spiritual practice or concept that bothers many of us, but rather how certain people - aka "The Church" - have used the spirituality of something that is beautiful and created a religion that has, historically speaking, been incredibly repressive, cruel and dominating: the exact antithesis of the teachings of Christ.

So, it's not "Christianity" we rebel against, it's "Christians". Or more succinctly, those who do not practice what they preach. For me that extends to anyone in that category; not just Christians.

[Ree]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

The commonality that I'm seeing in most of these posts is that it's not Christianity as a spiritual practice or concept that bothers many of us, but rather how certain people - aka "The Church" - have used the spirituality of something that is beautiful and created a religion that has, historically speaking, been incredibly repressive, cruel and dominating: the exact antithesis of the teachings of Christ.

So, it's not "Christianity" we rebel against, it's "Christians". Or more succinctly, those who do not practice what they preach. For me that extends to anyone in that category; not just Christians.

Actually I do argue against Christianity. I simply don't believe that Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins and that is the basis of Christianity.

[fwellers]

So, it's not "Christianity" we rebel against, it's "Christians". Or more succinctly, those who do not practice what they preach. For me that extends to anyone in that category; not just Christians.

I think it's actually Christianity that I have a beef with. The teachings of Jesus did not make a religion or a church. Christians, who distorted His words, created man made doctrines around them, mixed the teachings with paganism and then called it "Christianity" did all of that.

Personally I think "religion" is bad. It causes people to stop thinking. It is cultish by definition if not by practice, and it separates people at the most basic levels.
But for me, Christianity takes the cake, because the god of Christianity is such a tyrannical ogre who throws people into eternal torment and then says "you did it to yourself" .

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

I've noticed that many people on this forum seem to have a particular hatred for Christianity. I can see a critique of Christianity from a historical perspective, but most of the arguments are against the teachings of Christ. I honestly don't get that.

So what's your beef? I would like to understand and I think it would make a good discussion.

I don't have any beef, but what do the teachings of Christ have to do with Christianity?

[Rafael Perez]

When I had finished my first book, there were attacks on it by some Christians. But not only Christians, a lot of religious dogma. When you take a close look at theology you can pretty much define where the lies started.

When you reach a level of awareness that is beyond the dogma you atart to see things for what they are. You see past the lies that people have formed around themselves to justify their reality.

The teachings of Christ and other parts of the bible are like the messages we hear now. We filter them to make sense of the fragile eggshell reality we have created around us. We filter everything.

You will have claims of the Bible is 'law and everything is truth'... but when I would question certain truths I found that people would make brilliant excuse on why that part was not literal.

I have read and determined a lot of what I have read to be about perspective. After all there is no such thing as right and wrong, it is simply a matter of perspective.

In my opinion a lot of Pauls writing is influenced by his filter of having been a Pharisee most of his life. Paul was an enlightened being, but he still felt much anger and other negative emotions and even makes it clear in some parts that the writing is his words and not the words of God.

His dominant belief about women... according to his writings, women should not speak in church. If they have an idea then they tell their husband and the husband would deem if it was ok. Then he would speak it.

Um... yeah, very clear and very defined in some type of limitation. Christianity is not the only religion that has these filters in their writings. All religious dogma is designed to keep the masses controlled through fear. Thus we have scary hell, and the thought that we were created imperfect.

When you really think about it and question where this belief came from and whether or not it is true for you you will find that something will not make sense.

The eggshell reality of religion and all other facets of your life are dominated by the lies we tell ourselves to make it a reality. Our logical minds have to have an excuse on why you would keep yourself in a state of fear or depression. Thus we lie to ourselves and others. It doesn't make us bad people.

I am yet to find someone who is a bad person, I see alot of people who are simply confused about what is true for them. It is much easier to take on someone elses truth then your own. Thus you have Christians who are a little more judgemental than others. In that judgement they judge themselves, thus they have to make it public and passionate or else why the heck have they been believing something in that way for so long.

The mentality is "give me rules to follow" those are real, in my face... I can see them, they are within my comfort zone. Some people do not believe they are ready to turn their focus inward, they have been programmed to find the answer outside of themselves. Thus the following of the dogma and the accusations of others who are not inline.

This all has to do with the filter, everyone that attends a church will hear the surmon in a different way due to this very unique filter. It does tend to get a little clogged with fear and doubt.

As far as my thoughts on Christianity. I was kicked out of my church, but I love them all. I know they were doing what they believed was right, what was true for them. That was their truth and they