What's your beef with Christianity?

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by fwellers

Glad you say "if" the bible is true. Because according to me, there is no way anything that declares eternal damnation for anybody, is true.

Why are you glad about that? Being glad about it presumes that you are afraid of eternal damnation. If you are afraid of eternal damnation, then you believe in some of the Bible. The Bible can't be false and true at the same time.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by fwellers

Might you be suggesting that at least one homosexual is going to eternal hell ?

Although there is some argument within the Christian community about whether or not we are judged on our works, I, and from what I understand, most of the protestant community believes that no one is going to hell based on what they do, except for one thing: whether or not they accept Jesus' gift of eternal salvation.

We all have crosses to bear. If homosexuality is a sin, and if it's important to God enough that your salvation rests upon the homosexual from refraining from the temptations that go along with homosexual activity, then He will put it into the homosexuals heart to avoid the temptations, provided the homosexual puts God's will above his own.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Why are you glad about that? Being glad about it presumes that you are afraid of eternal damnation. If you are afraid of eternal damnation, then you believe in some of the Bible. The Bible can't be false and true at the same time.

dude, don't try and shrink me. I am glad because it means you are not 100 percent sure in your belief of eternal hell. It just happens to bug me when people believe that. So sue me.

And sure I believe some of the bible. So what ? You act like the bible is an absolute thing. Which version is absolute ? Your version ? Which interpretation is absolute ? your interpretation ?

Are you aware that their are translations of the bible that say that there is no eternal damnation ?

[jawillie]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Jawillie, If you truly do this and it is really God the Father that you worship, and not just some metaphysical universal spirit, then you are following God's greatest commandment (which Jesus preached): to love God with all your heart mind and soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Personally I feel compelled to express to you that I feel that you have put yourself in place of Jesus, as He is our councilor and go-between to reach God. We are too sinful to reach God alone. I don't see why you couldn't feel for Jesus what you feel for God. Of course this is coming from a Christian viewpoint, but if you read the Bible forward and back then I dont understand why you missed it when Jesus said that He is THE way to reach God and salvation: Acts 4:10-12. You seem to have absorbed God's greatest commandment, even if you don't express it as such and specifically preach the commandment to anybody. If your salvation is important to you, then may I suggest that you have a serious conversation with Jesus, or at least with God about the existence of His son. And may I recommend that you don't be a brick wall when you talk to Him.
.

See, this is hard for me to explain. I think it comes down to interpretation. What do the words do to your SOUL?? When I read about salvation, I don't take it to mean some "future event." When I read about heaven, it is not a heaven "over there." When I hear about hell, it's not "down there." Heaven and hell TO ME mean a state of mind.

I interpret Jesus' words in an ENTIRELY different way than you do.

I always have. The way Christians tell me to believe in Jesus, God and the Bible just have never resonated as "truth" in my soul. Sorry.

Deepak Chopra has a book that DOES resonate as truth in my soul: It is called The Third Jesus. Even Christians have written good reviews about this book.

Oooh... I also don't believe we are born sinful. I do not believe we are born "separate from God." I am not telling you to believe that, I am just saying that is what is truth in my soul. I will not separate myself from God again. God, as I see it, is in ALL. Omnipotent.. EVERYWHERE. In you, me, the trees. I believe in Oneness. So, I don't need Jesus to be my go-between. I believe Jesus was trying to tell us that, too, but man's interpretation got in the way. That's just what *I* believe. If it makes you uneasy, perhaps it is because of deep-seeded doubts within yourself. When you tell me what you believe I do not feel anger or a need to change you. I still defend myself, but I am working on stopping that. Just not today, apparently.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by fwellers

dude, don't try and shrink me. I am glad because it means you are not 100 percent sure in your belief of eternal hell.

LOL. Now who's shrinking whom? Whom? Who? Whatever... LOL. Anyway. I am totally sure in my belief of eternal hell.

It just happens to bug me when people believe that. So sue me.

If I could I would. LOL. No I wouldn't but wouldn't it be funny if I did?

And sure I believe some of the bible. So what ? You act like the bible is an absolute thing. Which version is absolute ? Your version ? Which interpretation is absolute ? your interpretation ?

The original texts are absolute. The best translation is the one that translates the original texts to English the most faithfully. This is why biblical scholars learn Hebrew, Greek, etc. They want to study the Bible without the weight of translation on it.

Are you aware that their are translations of the bible that say that there is no eternal damnation ?

I'd like to see these translations. There (not their - LOL) are a LOT of translations and most of them have some critical things wrong with them. I like ISV*, NIV, NASB, KJ, in that order.

Originally Posted by jawillie

Oooh... I also don't believe we are born sinful. I do not believe we are born "separate from God."

Well I agree that we are not born with the taint of sin on us so we are not separated from God at birth. Naturally an infant has not sinned. However, the taint of original sin is on all of us and soon he will sin. It is in our nature to sin. Nobody's perfect. Nature and Nurture have too much of an effect on us. Nature and Nurture by the way are the way I interpret and explain original sin and personal responsibility**. Is our Free Will in line enough and strong enough to counter nature and nurture to keep us from sinning.

I interpret Jesus' words in an ENTIRELY different way than you do.

I always have. The way Christians tell me to believe in Jesus, God and the Bible just have never resonated as "truth" in my soul. Sorry....

...I believe Jesus was trying to tell us that, too, but man's interpretation got in the way.

So you do believe in Jesus. I'm having a hard time reconciling that with what you are telling me. I hear that you don't believe in Him, but then you say that you believed that what He had to say coincides with what you believe. Do you believe Jesus' words? Did His words urge you to believe what you believe? If so, then I am failing to understand how you can deny His existence. And if you at a minimum believe in him as far as a historical figure but deny that he is God's son, if you still believe his words enough to believe that they reinforce your beliefs, then I don't understand how you can dismiss Acts 4:10-12. Hard to interpret that verse any way other than "I am your go-between to reach God."

I am seeing that you had your mind made up before you even studied Him. Or at least you were well on your way there. Maybe your mind wasn't really open when you studied Him. No offense. That's just what I am reading.



* The International Standard Version is still being translated today. Not all of the books have been translated, but I think it stands faar above all of the other translations. Of course what do I know. I don't read the languages that the original texts were written in.

**I'm actually formulating a topic/blog post/forum post/even maybe a book on our influences. So far I have 4: Nature, Nurture, Free Will, Creativity. It's all about personal responsibility and the effects that those 4 (maybe more?) things have on our personal responsibility. Also the very existence of free will. Is free will an illusion or is it real? Does the very idea of free will create/prove that free will exists. Very philosophical idea really. I believe that you can measure an idea's good vs. evil quotient by its Effect on the level of free will in the world. This is why I believe that abortion is inherently evil. Sure a child limits the mother's free will for a time, but a new life increases the level of free will in the world. Free Will = good. Preventing free will = evil.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

LOL. Now who's shrinking whom? Whom? Who? Whatever... LOL. Anyway. I am totally sure in my belief of eternal hell.

Well you did say "IF" the bible was true. That leaves room for "IF NOT".
I'm sorry to hear that you are 100 percent sure that people will spend eternity in hell. I myself have less than zero use for such a belief or such a god.

The original texts are absolute. The best translation is the one that translates the original texts to English the most faithfully. This is why biblical scholars learn Hebrew, Greek, etc. They want to study the Bible without the weight of translation on it.

So which translation is that then ? The Concordant version has no doctrine of hell in it. It claims to be the most accurate version. It points out many translation errors in all the authorized versions that stem from the latin vulgate, one of them being that there was no word for hell in the original hebrew or greek.

I'd like to see these translations. There (not their - LOL) are a LOT of translations and most of them have some critical things wrong with them. I like ISV*, NIV, NASB, KJ, in that order.

Try Concordant Publishing Concern

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by fwellers

The main problem I have is the "end up" ( I highlighted it in your quote ).

There is no "end up" in hell. There can not be any true love in the universe if it's GOD forces people to "end up" ( meaning to stay there for eternity ) in hell. It doesn't make a lick of sense, and goes against EVERYTHING that anyone knows about love.

I don't agree with some of the people on here.

The way I understand it, Christ end's the whole good/evil, heaven/hell dichotomy in the first place.

Consider for a moment that you or I can be saved 2000 years after Christ's cruxifiction. Christ didn't just come for the people in his age. He came for all people at all times. He paid for all sins, past, present and future.

Satan or evil only has power as long as this duality keeps going. Christ's sacrifice ended all that. It's already over. This event wasn't a mark on a time line, it was the hinge from which all of time swings.

God is love. The only hell that can exist is separation from love. And only you can create such a separation. The faith part is believing that love is more powerful than good or evil or reason or atom bombs. Jesus is God as a verb.
He is the expression of love, that is the Way.

People mis-interpret the Bible because they think it is a linear story, from Genesis to Revelation. It is actually a pop-up book of metaphor with Christ hanging on the cross at the center.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

I don't agree with some of the people on here.

The way I understand it, Christ end's the whole good/evil, heaven/hell dichotomy in the first place.

Consider for a moment that you or I can be saved 2000 years after Christ's cruxifiction. Christ didn't just come for the people in his age. He came for all people at all times. He paid for all sins, past, present and future.

Satan or evil only has power as long as this duality keeps going. Christ's sacrifice ended all that. It's already over. This event wasn't a mark on a time line, it was the hinge from which all of time swings.

God is love. The only hell that can exist is separation from love. And only you can create such a separation. The faith part is believing that love is more powerful than good or evil or reason or atom bombs. Jesus is God as a verb.
He is the expression of love, that is the Way.

People mis-interpret the Bible because they think it is a linear story, from Genesis to Revelation. It is actually a pop-up book of metaphor with Christ hanging on the cross at the center.

Nice post. Yes, I think that as this forum points out in many places, eternity is all around us. So if we are not "in eternity" as far as our concsiousness goes, then we are sort of in hell during eternity ( now ).
But it's not something we can't change.
mainstream christianity sees eternity as a forever and ever linear progression of time that never ever ends. Thus, when someone is in hell for eternity, they are in hell and never get out. EVER !

That's just wrong.

Plus, the bible is replete with places where it expresses that Jesus came to save ALL, and that He is the Savior of ALL, and that ALL will be saved etc... but the christians mis-interpret that all to mean "some".
It's a big shame as far as I am concerned.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

So you do believe in Jesus. I'm having a hard time reconciling that with what you are telling me. I hear that you don't believe in Him, but then you say that you believed that what He had to say coincides with what you believe. Do you believe Jesus' words? Did His words urge you to believe what you believe? If so, then I am failing to understand how you can deny His existence. And if you at a minimum believe in him as far as a historical figure but deny that he is God's son, if you still believe his words enough to believe that they reinforce your beliefs, then I don't understand how you can dismiss Acts 4:10-12. Hard to interpret that verse any way other than "I am your go-between to reach God."

Here's how I reconciled what I felt to be True with what Christianity - at least as it was taught to me as a kid - had to offer with regards to Jesus and the Bible:

Jesus is the son of God. Ok. So am I. So are you. So is everyone - except for those who happen to be 'daughters' but let's not quibble there. I know the Bible says "only begotten son," but I just don't accept that.

Jesus was no more intrinsically "divine" than you or I. He had a better understanding of the Universe and tried in what ways he could to make the people he was around come to the same understanding. His way is not "THE" way, it's "one" way. Hiduism, Buddhism, Yogiism, Judaism, Islam, and the literally MILLIONS of other ways people connect to Spirit/Source/God are other, but no less valid, ways.

Those who interpret Jesus' words - as reported by those who followed him, not he himself - of 2000 years ago from a culture radically different than our own and use our filters and understandings of those words do the message injustice. Even IF we could translate the words exactly, the meanings would have a nuance of difference becasue of the context of the times and the culture. That's why the Bible is NOT absolute. It cannot be. It was written by people, and no matter how inspired they may have been, they were limited by the nature of their being and their words were limited by that nature.

All that assuming of course that those who followed Jesus truly GOT the message he was preaching. That means they DIDN'T get hung up on semantics, didn't misunderstand a phrase or mishear a quote or "embellish" or "clean up" what they heard at a later time to make it sound better, and that what THEY wrote was faithfully copied - in WHATEVER language - and reported accurately by the hundreds if not thousands of people who followed over the hundreds of years of the infancy of the religion.

With that, I just can not accept that the Bible - as a collection of letters, missives and thoughts - can be viewed as the literal "word of God."

The overall messages of humility, perseverence, respect, honor, love, sacrifice, truth, compassion, courage, fortitude, and generosity, however, I DO wholeheartedly agree with. These are messages that are common and consistent throughout almost all religions throughout the human experience and therefore, to me, speak of the True Word of God.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

Here's how I reconciled what I felt to be True with what Christianity - at least as it was taught to me as a kid - had to offer with regards to Jesus and the Bible:

Jesus is the son of God. Ok. So am I. So are you. So is everyone - except for those who happen to be 'daughters' but let's not quibble there. I know the Bible says "only begotten son," but I just don't accept that.

Even though it's right there in black and white.

Jesus was no more intrinsically "divine" than you or I. He had a better understanding of the Universe and tried in what ways he could to make the people he was around come to the same understanding.

How then did he obtain this information? What made Him so special?

His way is not "THE" way, it's "one" way. Hiduism, Buddhism, Yogiism, Judaism, Islam, and the literally MILLIONS of other ways people connect to Spirit/Source/God are other, but no less valid, ways.

Beg to differ.

Those who interpret Jesus' words - as reported by those who followed him, not he himself - of 2000 years ago from a culture radically different than our own and use our filters and understandings of those words do the message injustice. Even IF we could translate the words exactly, the meanings would have a nuance of difference becasue of the context of the times and the culture. That's why the Bible is NOT absolute. It cannot be. It was written by people, and no matter how inspired they may have been, they were limited by the nature of their being and their words were limited by that nature.

All that assuming of course that those who followed Jesus truly GOT the message he was preaching. That means they DIDN'T get hung up on semantics, didn't misunderstand a phrase or mishear a quote or "embellish" or "clean up" what they heard at a later time to make it sound better, and that what THEY wrote was faithfully copied - in WHATEVER language - and reported accurately by the hundreds if not thousands of people who followed over the hundreds of years of the infancy of the religion.

With that, I just can not accept that the Bible - as a collection of letters, missives and thoughts - can be viewed as the literal "word of God."

So you are dismissing the Bible out of hand then? Completely? If you were God, how would you communicate your intentions to people? You don't think that God intended for us to use the Bible as our source of knowledge about Him and His way? How do you think He intended to communicate to us. Do you think we just screwed up what he was trying to tell us? Well, if He is so powerful, wouldn't he know that we would screw it up then and correct it before we could screw it up? I think the many ways of interpreting the Bible came from Him because it enables free will. And as I mentioned elsewhere: free will = good.

The overall messages of humility, perseverence, respect, honor, love, sacrifice, truth, compassion, courage, fortitude, and generosity, however, I DO wholeheartedly agree with. These are messages that are common and consistent throughout almost all religions throughout the human experience and therefore, to me, speak of the True Word of God.

And what about Jesus. You believe he existed, but you disagree with His words. Oh, but only some of them. It seems to me that you pick and choose which words you agree with. I'm having a hard time with that.

[torilink]

Hey, just wanted to offer my views & understandings - take 'em or leave 'em, they are what they are.

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

Here's how I reconciled what I felt to be True with what Christianity - at least as it was taught to me as a kid - had to offer with regards to Jesus and the Bible:

Jesus is the son of God. Ok. So am I. So are you. So is everyone - except for those who happen to be 'daughters' but let's not quibble there. I know the Bible says "only begotten son," but I just don't accept that.

there is only one "Begotten" son and it resides within every one of us. We are the body of Christ, the Christ within is always there within each and every one of us. When we are living in error... or for the ego it is still there within, it's just that we have forgotten and separated ourselves from it, or we have "Crucified" the Christ we really are within. As the ego begins to diminish and we partake of the flesh & blood/truth/bread &wine, we begin to awaken or resurrect or transmute from the false egoic self to the divine self. This is not a physical resurrection, but the outer always reflects the inner so there will be transformation perceived outside of the self body through miracles/"coincidence"/and so on.

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

Jesus was no more intrinsically "divine" than you or I. He had a better understanding of the Universe and tried in what ways he could to make the people he was around come to the same understanding. His way is not "THE" way, it's "one" way. Hiduism, Buddhism, Yogiism, Judaism, Islam, and the literally MILLIONS of other ways people connect to Spirit/Source/God are other, but no less valid, ways.

divinity is within all that is - when the egoic mind embraces and submits to the christ spirit within, we are transformed along with the outer world - Jesus the identity was resurrected from the body identity to the inner divine essence. He became a fully integrated mind, The Christ.

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

Those who interpret Jesus' words - as reported by those who followed him, not he himself - of 2000 years ago from a culture radically different than our own and use our filters and understandings of those words do the message injustice. Even IF we could translate the words exactly, the meanings would have a nuance of difference becasue of the context of the times and the culture. That's why the Bible is NOT absolute. It cannot be. It was written by people, and no matter how inspired they may have been, they were limited by the nature of their being and their words were limited by that nature.

All that assuming of course that those who followed Jesus truly GOT the message he was preaching. That means they DIDN'T get hung up on semantics, didn't misunderstand a phrase or mishear a quote or "embellish" or "clean up" what they heard at a later time to make it sound better, and that what THEY wrote was faithfully copied - in WHATEVER language - and reported accurately by the hundreds if not thousands of people who followed over the hundreds of years of the infancy of the religion.

With that, I just can not accept that the Bible - as a collection of letters, missives and thoughts - can be viewed as the literal "word of God."

The overall messages of humility, perseverence, respect, honor, love, sacrifice, truth, compassion, courage, fortitude, and generosity, however, I DO wholeheartedly agree with. These are messages that are common and consistent throughout almost all religions throughout the human experience and therefore, to me, speak of the True Word of God.

wonderfully stated! well said.

[pianoperformer]

fwellers, I 100% agree with everything you have said.

I do wonder how you learned that the doctrine of hell was made up. I'd love to have more information on this.

Anyway, I've spent probably the last 9 years trying to find the truth. I've gone through Christianity, more new-age believes, eastern philosophies, etc, and sometimes cycled through a few of these.

I've read the Bible through a few times. I felt uncomfortable dismissing the whole thing outright, so wanted to see what I was dealing with.

And then, I gave the whole thing a chance. I tried to find a good church. i went through several churches, but never could resolve what they said with what I had read in the Bible. Further, no one had answers to some of the things I asked. I understand that some things require faith, but it has to be reasonable and logical to me. An answer of "that's just how it is" doesn't cut it.

No one could tell me why i should believe in the Bible, when there were plenty of other decent religions that I could believe in just as easily. Why's Christianity get to say it's the only truth? No one could prove it to me. No one could prove that there was any reason whatsoever to believe that the Bible was God's communication to us, except to say that if I didn't believe in it, I was going to hell, so I may as well believe in it.

Well, I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it. In the deepest regions of my soul, I cannot accept a fear-based religion as the truth. As humans, we are limited. We get things wrong all the time. It just so happens that according to Christianity, if we get it wrong about this little thing called religion, we pay for it eternally without question. Faith is not concrete—no one can show me 100% undeniable proof that Christianity is true. They can threaten me, saying I must believe in it if I want to have a nice time of the afterlife, but if I ask for proof, I get referred to the very book whose factuality and truth I am questioning.

However, I have read stories such as this that do make me wonder. I mean, there are parts of the story I have a major problem with, but subjective experience isn't one of them. It may be though that that is what would comfort that person best at the time. I really don't know.

I honestly don't know what I believe in these days. For the last few months, I had made another attempt at Christianity after reading Meer Christianity by CS Louis. However, I find myself at the very same place I was a few years ago when I tried to believe in it.

I'll tell you the truth: one of the best times of my life, when I felt most at peace spiritually, and was happiest, was when I studied, well let's say alternative paths. I mean, I did a lot with meditation, psychic development, etc, and held a belief similar to some of those here in the oneness of everything. It's what I would revert to when I didn't know what else to turn to. I find myself on the verge of doing that lately. This is probably the third time I've given Christianity a chance, and the third time I've been disappointed.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by jawillie

So. This is what has always bothered me about Christianity. I will get right down to it.

I believe in God. (not some guy in the sky, but supreme being... god-source, the universe).

I thank God everyday by practicing and living in gratitude.
I strive to live close to God by being peace, love and joy and radiating that out to those around me.
I pray/meditate, 2x a day. NOT out of "ritual" but because I love feeling close to God-source.

I went to a strict lutheran college. I have had the bible classes. I have read the bible forward and backwards.

What I got out of that is God is Love. And that is the most important thing.

So, because I don't "worship JESUS" but instead go right for the source... I am going to hell???

For me? That is what is wrong with Christianity. FOR ME.

I love walking in nature and feeling at one with all. The trees, my neighbors, my dog, the rocks... lol. Christianity never offered that to me. That is why I don't relate to it.

So my friends may think I am in some "cult" but I gotta be honest, I think I spend way more time with God than they ever have. And I don't mean that judgemental, but fact. I FEEL god within me.... you can't tell me that is going to send me to hell. Well, you can... I just don't buy it anymore.

Beautifully said. I totally agree with you. That is largely what makes the most sense to me.

I go to a Catholic university, by the way, but luckily they don't press it on the students, well except for the fact one of the priests hates Greek life and is keen on removing it if he gets the chance. But I digress....

[torilink]

This is my beef with the theology of atonement as presented by the Church (not necessarily the scriptures as they are open for interpretation)....

God is eternal, no beginning no ending always the same (per my Christian upbringing)

Man, or the human form body/mind is temporal and in bondage to "Sin".

how can anything temporal have any eternal effect?

God (the eternal) must be truth - the other (man as a separate form) the opposite of that truth or illusion. Illusions cannot override truth, cannot change truth, nor effect it in any way.

So, for those who believe bodies "Sin" must believe that in some way this temporal & unreal body can do anything that effects God or the eternal state in such a grievous way as to require death & blood to atone for it.

this makes no sense to me in this literal interpretation.

[fwellers]

PianoPerformer,
If you want to learn about "scriptural universalism" there are some good websistes such as:
Concordant Expositions (html format)
The Writings of Martin Zender
The End of "Forever" in the Bible

Just to start.

I actually learned about it from a poster on religious forums. I still have lots of his posts and writings. He was an excellent teacher.

For me, that was the intermediate step out of christianity into where I am now, which is basically something I don't think needs a label. ( sort of like most people on this forum )

I just remember how utterly happy I was to learn that my Christ and my God wasn't the cruel bastard He was made out to be by mainstream christianity. But you know, once you open up that can of worms as to the efficacy ( or not ) of the bible, then things get a little shaky as far as absolute belief in any one particular theology or religion.

Be advised dude, if you learn anything different about the bible from these sites, and start trying to explain it to regular christians, you will be branded as a teacher of demonic theology, a heretic and whatever else they can think of.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx