What's your beef with Christianity?

[12345]

Originally Posted by Ree

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Do you mean that, supposing there IS a hell and a soul ends up there, it's that soul's desire?

For me at least, I *do* think it’s that soul’s desire. I think the afterlife (heaven or hell) is the eternal manifestation of what truly rests within our deepest thoughts and desires.

Originally Posted by Ree

I sure never felt that I had all the knowledge I needed while I was practicing Christianity. My opinion is the opposite, that it's a close-minded, narrow view of life and death and being. It refuses to explore or question. I've never been the kind of person to blindly follow a practice or to accept another's beliefs without question. Does that mean according to Christianity I'm going to hell??

I don’t even *know* if I’m going to heaven, and I attempt to be a Christian. I do sincerely believe, however, that heaven will be my eternity, because it is my heart’s desire to do what is good and thus what is Godly, and vice versa. I think I said in another thread that it has always amazed me how the word ‘good’ is just the word ‘God’ with an extra ‘o’. Only God has the ability to judge, because only He knows the unique path that each person has walked—the opportunities, the disadvantages, and everything in between.

Originally Posted by Ree

And I also have to say here that I don't see a very clear path between good and evil. For example, what do you have to say about the recent controversy surrounding the ordination of a gay Bishop by the Episcopal Church in the USA?

I personally don’t think this is good and thus Godly, since the bible does oppose homosexuality, but I am in *no way* suggesting that all homosexuals are going to hell just as I am in no way suggesting any one else is going to hell. Only God knows the reasons why a person is the way he or she is (I know I've said this again and again, but it's true).

Originally Posted by Ree

It was explained to me that the advent of fundamental religion in early years in this country (non-liturgical churches) where the preachers read a verse, any verse, from the Bible and then preach a sermon, frequently yelling and pounding the pulpit, came about because of widespread illiteracy which prevented congregants from participating in the responsive readings, etc. of liturgical churches.

When televangelists start “yelling and pounding the pulpit”, I change the channel. A haughty preaching style is completely out of line with Godly humility.

God bless to all.

[12345]

Originally Posted by Ree

I sure never felt that I had all the knowledge I needed while I was practicing Christianity. My opinion is the opposite, that it's a close-minded, narrow view of life and death and being. It refuses to explore or question. I've never been the kind of person to blindly follow a practice or to accept another's beliefs without question. Does that mean according to Christianity I'm going to hell??

For me personally, I have no need to “explore or question” anything other than Christianity because there is just too much good I have found within it to want anything else. Sure, I have many, many questions about why certain things have happened and are currently happening to me and the world in general. Ultimately, however, living a Godly life is a reward in itself, and we should naturally *desire* to do this since all of the most admirable things in life are Godly.

[fwellers]

For me at least, I *do* think it’s that soul’s desire. I think the afterlife (heaven or hell) is the eternal manifestation of what truly rests within our deepest thoughts and desires.

I'd be real interested to know ( I think I can guess <grin> ), on what basis you come to that conclusion. You really think that a soul ( or a person ), especially one who can't even fullly grasp the concept of eternity, to truly desire to spend eternity in hell ? Which and whose soul did you ever know that would want such a thing ?

... but I am in *no way* suggesting that all homosexuals are going to hell ....

Might you be suggesting that at least one homosexual is going to eternal hell ?

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by blazer1

I see the Matrix is a matter of intepretation.

What I took from the Matrix was the fact most of us are stuck in a world of delusion. We are not enlightened to the way things really are. We are componsed of Ego, and we are controlled by the Ego.
When I talk about the Ego, I mean the animal instincts which still exists in the self-realised man.

When I step out of the Ego, and view the Matrix (the world deluded by Ego) ... I am then wiser.

This was what Buddha was talking about ... dont be a slave to the ego, be the master of the Ego. Neo is the master of his Ego.

Don't you agree?

/***************************

In the end, (and qoute me on this) ... we have six senses, five senses from the primal past, and the sixth sense which comes from imagination.

These six senses together with technology (making it seven senses) are not hardly enough to properly describe (rather speculate) what this thing called Life and the Universe is.

I guess we are all talking about the same thing, but the problem is in words, and mode of thought we use in our description. Some pose potential problems (as with Christianity) and some dont.

The Matrix is based on the Hero Myth that Joseph Cambell designed. Star Wars was based on the same plot. You probably already knew that. You sound like someone who would be into these things. The Hero Myth is a story that can be found in almost every culture, the story of Christ being one of them.

Christ, Buddha, Neo, Skywalker: these are archetypes in the collective unconscious. The most important archetype in my opinion because it is the image of God within you or the seed of enlightenment sprouting into full bloom.

The ego, IMO, is the conditioned self. The person you are told to be by society and I would agree with you that our instincts and senses are manipulated by society. I'm not one to say you need to get rid of the ego, rather transmute it into the above archetype... however you envision that. All of our instincts can be transmuted for a higher cause. The sex drive for example can be re-routed into creative endeavors.

[12345]

Originally Posted by fwellers

Might you be suggesting that at least one homosexual is going to eternal hell ?

In the same sense that I am suggesting that at least one heterosexual is going to hell.

To reiterate my original statement: I am in *no way* suggesting that all homosexuals are going to hell just as I am in no way suggesting anyone else is going to hell.

God bless.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by 12345

In the same sense that I am suggesting that at least one heterosexual is going to hell.

To reiterate my original statement: I am in *no way* suggesting that all homosexuals are going to hell just as I am in no way suggesting anyone else is going to hell.

God bless.

But somebody is going to hell right ? In fact, doesn't the bible say that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle that for a rich man to escape hell ? And wide is the path to destruction but narrow is the road to salvation ?

I mean, lets cut to the chase. How many people, percentage wise have to go to ETERNAL hell ? And truthfully, how many is too many ?

Can one enjoy eternal bliss with god knowing that sentinent beings are being tortured ( ie. .gnashing of teeth, unquenchable fire, screams, etc... ) for all of eternity ?

I know that the bible says in 1 cor 15:24-28 that God will be "all in all" at the end of the ages, yet 99.9999% of christians deny that, amoung the many other places the bible tells of all being 'saved'. they change the word all, to some, in their rhetoric, and continue to believe and teach that so many will rot for eternity.
I don't understand how anyone can be happy in heaven worshiping a god like that, who allows such to go on for eternity.

[blazer1]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

The Matrix is based on the Hero Myth that Joseph Cambell designed. Star Wars was based on the same plot. You probably already knew that. You sound like someone who would be into these things. The Hero Myth is a story that can be found in almost every culture, the story of Christ being one of them.

Christ, Buddha, Neo, Skywalker: these are archetypes in the collective unconscious. The most important archetype in my opinion because it is the image of God within you or the seed of enlightenment sprouting into full bloom.

The ego, IMO, is the conditioned self. The person you are told to be by society and I would agree with you that our instincts and senses are manipulated by society. I'm not one to say you need to get rid of the ego, rather transmute it into the above archetype... however you envision that. All of our instincts can be transmuted for a higher cause. The sex drive for example can be re-routed into creative endeavors.

I didnt know that actually mate !

The Ego is the idea you are a human being, you are special, different to other beings/people, you are seperate, you think for yourself, you have free-will, ...the ego is the notion of you being a seperate entity.

If a cell in your body had an ego, it will think it is a special cell, different to others, etc ... but you will know it's just part of the bigger whole, playing its part.

Read my posts on the thread called "the Ego".

In the end ... there is a duality, mind/body. The mind (consciousness) has found a habitat within the body.

dont view mind/body as seperate things however, they are just in natural balance, in harmoney with each other and the rest of the universe. if it wasn't in harmony then it would not be!

on a closing note: they say to understand the Universe, you just need to look within yourself.

[bentoak]

Originally Posted by 12345

I don’t even *know* if I’m going to heaven, and I attempt to be a Christian.

As a Christian (I prefer the term "Christ follower") I would challenge you to get off the fence. There is no such thing as "attempting to be a "Christian". Christianity is not about doing; it's all about what has been done for you. "...if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved". (Romans 10:9)

I know...I know...most of the people on this forum have a problem with black and white, but scripture is more than clear about this. We are, "saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8)

No grey area there. No discrimination, either...just a choice to make. (More on that when I have more time)

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by bentoak

As a Christian (I prefer the term "Christ follower") I would challenge you to get off the fence. There is no such thing as "attempting to be a "Christian". Christianity is not about doing; it's all about what has been done for you. "...if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved". (Romans 10:9)

I know...I know...most of the people on this forum have a problem with black and white, but scripture is more than clear about this. We are, "saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8)

No grey area there. No discrimination, either...just a choice to make. (More on that when I have more time)

So does that mean if I don't believe in hell, does that mean I am going there according to your belief ?

[Ree]

Originally Posted by 12345

For me at least, I *do* think it’s that soul’s desire. I think the afterlife (heaven or hell) is the eternal manifestation of what truly rests within our deepest thoughts and desires.

I don't think I've ever heard this before. Wow. Do you have Biblical support for this belief? Or any other source, for that matter?

[Ree]

Originally Posted by 12345

For me personally, I have no need to “explore or question” anything other than Christianity because there is just too much good I have found within it to want anything else. Sure, I have many, many questions about why certain things have happened and are currently happening to me and the world in general. Ultimately, however, living a Godly life is a reward in itself, and we should naturally *desire* to do this since all of the most admirable things in life are Godly.

Good for you. You've found what you feel is the true way for you and you are sticking with it.

I feel the same way about the truth that I have sought after and found for myself

[Ree]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

I've noticed that many people on this forum seem to have a particular hatred for Christianity. I can see a critique of Christianity from a historical perspective, but most of the arguments are against the teachings of Christ. I honestly don't get that.

So what's your beef? I would like to understand and I think it would make a good discussion.

As this thread shows, there are those on this forum who have a "beef" with Christianity, and there are also those who are quick to defend Christianity. Interesting.

Did this surprise you, Mercuryrising?

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by fwellers

So does that mean if I don't believe in hell, does that mean I am going there according to your belief ?

If what we believe is true, yes. But far be it for us to tell you that you're going there. We aren't supposed to judge other people. That's why I used the qualifier "if." And you always have a chance to repent. Death bed conversions count.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by 12345

For me at least, I *do* think it’s that soul’s desire. I think the afterlife (heaven or hell) is the eternal manifestation of what truly rests within our deepest thoughts and desires.

Oh you're delving into some deeeep philosophical Christian theology there. We argue with ourselves a great deal about stuff like this, unfortunately.

I don't happen to believe it myself. There's nothing biblical about it. I think it comes from another non-biblical tenent of a lot of Christians: Once Saved Always Saved. Which essentially says you can't lose your salvation, even if you turn into a mass murderer. And they even go deeper into it saying things like "if you turn into a mass murderer then you weren't ever saved to begin with." I say it comes from OSAS because according to many OSAS advocates God selects "The Elect" on His will alone. And I suppose for this to be true He would have to put the desire in the elect's hearts to reach Heaven and puts the desire in everyone else's heart to reach for hell. Agh!! I truly believe that arguments like this are created by Satan just to make us argue and to splinter us. It doesn't help the harmony of Christians and belief in one way or another doesn't affect your salvation. These things are ridiculous things to argue.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

If what we believe is true, yes. But far be it for us to tell you that you're going there. We aren't supposed to judge other people. That's why I used the qualifier "if." And you always have a chance to repent. Death bed conversions count.

Nah, I don't need to repent. My beliefs don't include hell. But thanks for the "if" qualifier. It means that you leave room for the possibility that your truth isn't absolute for me. I really can ask for no more than that.

I wish you were as smart as me to not believe that stuff, , but I guess you probably wish the same thing about me.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Ree

As this thread shows, there are those on this forum who have a "beef" with Christianity, and there are also those who are quick to defend Christianity. Interesting.

Did this surprise you, Mercuryrising?

It wasn't like my birthday or something.

I sometimes contemplate what brought me here. Why am I reading such and such thread? Why did I stop out of a long string of posts and look into this one? Why did I start this one or respond to that?

Well, without getting too "out there", it brought me in contact with people like you. It gave a platform for people to discuss a controversial subject that we often can't have a real dialogue about. I mean if we were sitting on a bus and I said to you, "What's your beef with Christianity?" You would probably go sit somewhere else. We're so polite. We don't want to offend each other... but that's exactly how mis-conceptions and prejudice are formed.

Don't you think so?

BTW, are you Australian, British? It's just the use of 'mate' in your other post.

[Microcosm]

I am a non-dualist, influenced by Advaita-Vedanta who is not accepting of Christianity, and have an extreme dislike of theologians and priests. The reasons for this are multiple and in a better universe might be obvious to any non-Christian who has a non-dualist view.

The first is that Christianity has a big nasty, irreconcilable shadow. This shadow is Satan and Eternal Damnation. If our beliefs effect our subjective experience of reality, picture something if you will. You're creating your own reality, when suddenly you've decided that there should just happen to be an embodiment of an invented concept called "Evil", which encompasses all manner of horrific things, and that for no reason other than being opposed to the universe, humanity, and God. You have just turned "Evil" from an imaginary idea to a metaphysical entity. This metaphysical entity is placed in charge of the Earth. Also, everyone who doesn't believe as you is going to this place called "Hell" you invented.

Let us make something very clear here: This is what Christians have done!

Christians do not know what they are doing with their beliefs. They think their beliefs come from up high, from some God who knows better than them, and that there can be no other way. They have no idea the harm they do with their minds!

Really, each individual Christian is his own God and Devil, but try getting them to understand that! It's like talking to a brick wall. And then, in your intersubjective relationships with them, you become the mouthpiece for their Devil!

Then there is the fact that lifetime after lifetime, anyone who might merge with his own shadow and become aware of his divinity, were burned alive; philosophers and shamans were all removed from society, sometimes "condemned to hell": Burned to death. All so the priest and theologian, who puts himself in the throne of God and decides what is "True", stands above both God and Satan like an evil sorceror, using both as a tool of social control. The priest is sick, the theologian is sick, each is obsessed with patriarchy ("Father and Son") and obsessed with control, no wonder so many become pedophiles. Yes, I said it: Priests and theologians are mendacious human beings with diseased wills-to-power who create sick realities.

Divorce your mind from all things theological unless you like doing extreme passive-aggressive harm to others, is what I say!

Edit: Then there's the fact that many of the Psalms are basically curses on non-Christians.

[bentoak]

Originally Posted by fwellers

So does that mean if I don't believe in hell, does that mean I am going there according to your belief ?

No. Whether or not you believe in hell is irrelevant. It's what you believe about Jesus that matters. "Salvation comes no other way; no other name has been or will be given to us by which we can be saved, only this one." (Acts 4:12 (The Message))

[jawillie]

So. This is what has always bothered me about Christianity. I will get right down to it.

I believe in God. (not some guy in the sky, but supreme being... god-source, the universe).

I thank God everyday by practicing and living in gratitude.
I strive to live close to God by being peace, love and joy and radiating that out to those around me.
I pray/meditate, 2x a day. NOT out of "ritual" but because I love feeling close to God-source.

I went to a strict lutheran college. I have had the bible classes. I have read the bible forward and backwards.

What I got out of that is God is Love. And that is the most important thing.

So, because I don't "worship JESUS" but instead go right for the source... I am going to hell???

For me? That is what is wrong with Christianity. FOR ME.

I love walking in nature and feeling at one with all. The trees, my neighbors, my dog, the rocks... lol. Christianity never offered that to me. That is why I don't relate to it.

So my friends may think I am in some "cult" but I gotta be honest, I think I spend way more time with God than they ever have. And I don't mean that judgemental, but fact. I FEEL god within me.... you can't tell me that is going to send me to hell. Well, you can... I just don't buy it anymore.