What's your beef with Christianity?

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by blazer1

I don't know if I speak for all when I say, but my beef with Christianity is it tries to convey the Universe was built around the Human being. With this it asserts a God created the world in six days, created two fully developed humans Adam and Eve.

If Christianity and Judaism are true, then this would have to be the case, right?

I don't expect Christians to globally accept the fact Adam/Eve never existed literally - but I do expect a good teaching to not try and explain things which it cant.

Actually, what amazes me is just how relavent the wisdom in the Bible is today.

I am sure Jesus existed as a mortal man - but he was no son of God, and he never resurrected. He was just killed by the Jews or the Romans (?) because he was probably seen as a threat to the Government.

In general, my problem with Christianity is: it is a weak religion. They (the people in power) took the goodness of what Jesus professed and wrapped it up in too much bullshit to serve their own needs.

Weak? I don't understand. It ruled the western world for almost 2000 years. The US was founded on its principles. Can you explain how it's weak?

Only Bible based beliefs are considered 'Religions' ...

Ummm, Hinduism? Judaism? Islam? Wicca? Not Religions?

and Religion was a word to mean 'mass control'.

When? Cite please.

[blazer1]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

If Christianity and Judaism are true, then this would have to be the case, right?
Actually, what amazes me is just how relavent the wisdom in the Bible is today.

Do you trust science/mathematics or something else to explain the universe?

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Weak? I don't understand. It ruled the western world for almost 2000 years. The US was founded on its principles. Can you explain how it's weak?

It ruled because to this day we have door-knockers, people on TV, magazines that force the religion onto others who don't already believe in it. This religion needs to be sold, it needs to be marketed before it spreads. In my opinion anyway.

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Ummm, Hinduism? Judaism? Islam? Wicca? Not Religions?
When? Cite please.

Citation: Religion

in other words: Mass control.

Buddhism/Hinduism do not believe in a God that has a form. To a Hindu God is everything, I am God, you are God, my keyboard is God, the Tiger is a God. This is why Hindu God's look so strange, with multiple arms, elephant noses etc .... it is trying to express the physical appearance is not relevant, what is relevant is that we are all One, we are all the same, all connected.

It is by fluke religions, God etc exists ... if we did not have imagination and the sense of self, then these things would not have existed.

Christianity is the tool worlds social elite use to control the working class. America is the biggest manifestation of a system where it's people are controlled by religion.

In my opinion, I could be wrong!


(Perhaps the gaps, flaws and general weakness of Bible based religions in the Western society, gave way to such great scientists FROM the western society?)

[fwellers]

Not me. Call me a hypocrite if you must. But know that I will achieve more in my life with Christ as my example than if I had other people as my example, and I was afraid of ruffling a few feathers to get them out of their comfort zones and become the truly great people I know they can be.

Yea but that's not what most ( or even all ) of christianity is about. It's not about this life so much as the "next" life. The whole of christianity stems on the tenet that there is an eternal judgement when we die, and if we don't believe in Jesus Christ as the savior then we rot in hell.

I know I must sound like a broken record with this eternal hell / judgement thing, but that IS the bottom line of christianity.

[fellowtraveler]

I believe that most of the Christ's "teachings" were twisted by the political Jews and Romans of the time and afterwards for their own purposes. I think he would be (is) rather dismayed by what was done with his wisdom.

I used to hate chistianity. With age I have been able to see that for some people it's the only way they'll ever even think at all about spiritual things, so that's a plus. Some christians take to heart the message of love that was able to survive the centuries...that's a plus. And, churches provide a social network and support services for people with problems, and I can't argue with that.

Bottom line, I won't try to talk anyone out of it, if it's part of their personal journey; but when they try to convert me, I make sure they don't waste more than a minute or two of their time.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by blazer1

Do you trust science/mathematics or something else to explain the universe?

Both?

It ruled because to this day we have door-knockers, people on TV, magazines that force the religion onto others who don't already believe in it. This religion needs to be sold, it needs to be marketed before it spreads. In my opinion anyway.

Still not getting how this makes Christianity weak.

Citation: Religion

in other words: Mass control.

Umm... from your "cite"

Originally Posted by http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/religion

what actually constitutes a religion is subject to much dispute in the field of theology and among ordinary people.

Buddhism/Hinduism do not believe in a God that has a form. To a Hindu God is everything, I am God, you are God, my keyboard is God, the Tiger is a God. This is why Hindu God's look so strange, with multiple arms, elephant noses etc .... it is trying to express the physical appearance is not relevant, what is relevant is that we are all One, we are all the same, all connected.

And? Does that mean that they aren't religions?

It is by fluke religions, God etc exists ... if we did not have imagination and the sense of self, then these things would not have existed.

That is what you believe. But it isn't what I believe.

Christianity is the tool worlds social elite use to control the working class. America is the biggest manifestation of a system where it's people are controlled by religion.

Umm... Cite again please. This is a popular belief in the George Noory belief system, but there isn't any evidence to support it.

In my opinion, I could be wrong!

You aren't stating opinions. You are stating facts. You are either right or wrong. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, when they are discussing a topic of opinion, but we are discussing a factual topic. The fact is that Buddism is a religion. Not an opinion. Fact.

(Perhaps the gaps, flaws and general weakness of Bible based religions in the Western society, gave way to such great scientists FROM the western society?)

There you go again, presuming weakness. Who says that evolution can't work with Christianity? I happen to think that God created evolution, and that he created a 20+ billion or so old universe 6000 or so years ago. (How do you create an infant planet Earth capable of supporting life without organic matter in the soil? Where do you get organic soil? If you are God, why not just create the organic soil with an artificial history embedded within? It's like the Nexus 6 androids in Bladerunner: born brand new with a memory.)

[blazer1]

SmartAlx dude, the reason why I keep repeating "this is my Opinion only.." is because it is a description of how I perceive and make sense of this consciousness.

On that website I cited i saw:
"A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality."

the first and most relevant entry.

When you say use both (science and religion) to explain the construction of the universe, the mechanics of it ... then you must be not understanding mathematics - Mathematics is a language, and thus a mode of thought. The difference between Eastern philosophies (or religions, words are just labels) and Western Religions, is that one says: the universe revolves around mankind (which was naive, given there is a probable chance Aliens smarter than us exist) ... God created the universe in six days (is that literal or symbolic?) and most crudly believers go to Heaven, others go to hell. Whereas the other just asserts an ego has found a habitat within our physical bodies. The state the consciouseness is in determines the state the physical existence is in. Your body, material, and social life is an expression of your consciouse. Then it goes to say, with the higher mind, it can be tamed - or controlled. In other words, control the ego, which determines the expression on the physical plane.

It is not only easterners who recognise this fact but also people like: Napolean Hill, Einstein, Spinoza, Rene Descartes .... Maybe bible-based philosophies are for the people who don't really want to think too much, I dont know(?).

The way all Bible based languages are written are such that they claim to explain everything. I find it funny how the people behind the two testaments were so naive to suggest there are no patterns to this existence, they were the freshies of self-realisation perhaps ..?

It would take a lot of wisdom and non-humility to state we .. Humans .. are just like anything else on this planet, we are all made up of the same matter, and we are not special. This thing we call a "Consciouse" has found a habitat, in our bodies!

Look up on wikipedia this thing called Memes. It will blow you away. Watch the Matrix too ... hahaha

(and in my opinion, I think the attention Jesus received was seen as a marketing tool by the romans and jews. so the way it was written some many years after his death, created a religion which (1) satisfied the peoples question of: who are we, what are we, why are we? and (2) kept the people in control with the character called the Devil!). If God created everything, then God also created the Devil. Why introduce this good/bad as seperate entities? Perhaps to typecast enemies as the Devil to gain military auspices?


I don't expect to change anyones views ... I just wish to express why I dislike Christianity. Like someone said, there is atleast 1 plus that comes from it, AND that plus, is Jesus' word.

But maybe you all are right ... who knows... (play the x-files theme now)...

[SmartAlx]

Calling something an opinion doesn't necessarily make it so. "It is my opinion that 2+2=8" Am I entitled to believe that 2+2=8? How would you treat people who believe something so ridiculous?

BTW, I'm not talking about the right/wrong of believing in a certain religion/belief system. The arguments about them have gone on throughout all of human history. I'm addressing your contention that the Romans (and other leaders) used Christianity as a tool to control the masses.

You still haven't provided a cite for that.

[blazer1]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Calling something an opinion doesn't make it so. "It is my opinion that 2+2=8" Am I entitled to believe that 2+2=8? How would you treat people who believe something so ridiculous?

BTW, I'm not talking about the right/wrong of believing in a certain religion/belief system. The arguments about them have gone on throughout all of human history. I'm addressing your contention that the Romans (and other leaders) used Christianity as a tool to control the masses.

You still haven't provided a cite for that.

dont be so naive - there are a lot of considerations i make before what i write. it's kind of like how say, senior-management know what is really going down in the company, and the workers just go about their business thinking they are doing well. Then all of a sudden collapse (like all those bankrupt companies) ... the execs fcked up and workers fired. World destroyed.

The "church" before did control the people, until the "government" and "military" took over, - these people in power who control the government are either hereditary members or they are new members through CASH.

They make a lot of cash up there creating our world, (our matrix), and we just go in circles (the rat race) making money for them, trying to work towards a house, a car, and of course heaven. It's a system (capitalism) with flaws, just like communism and socialism has flaws. People are the problem. Once you are at the top of the human-food-chain ... you are living a different world. Theretically there is 1 most alpha person on this planet - this person will get chopped down as soon as another one comes up. This happens at the world domination level right down to your circle of friends.

Religion in this society was used as something to keep people in line, .. the church was an entity, a mass of minds making decisions, decisions on what cause they would support, what was right politically, what was wrong - whatever the church supported, its followers supported. And the people who made these decisions were under the guidance of the people in power. The alpha most group of humans on this planet (at any one time).

So to all those people who were too lazy to seek out the more time-consuming method towards the "satisfaction" of "enlightenment", you are the sheep. And the sheppard (i.e. your government) will lead you (the sheep).

It's a work of art in many ways. Again, I could be wrong.

And if you keep asking for citations I must assume you are a Uni student? Pretty proud of your degree and achievements? If I were to cite the things I write (which you call Fact, not Opinion) - then I would have to find a lot of citations ... and leave the rest to me piecing it for myself.

[Rafael Perez]

I would like you to consider that there is no right and wrong here. You both make wonderful points.

Could be that the world was created in six days. It could also be that it was created in billions... when I think about the concept of time, and how we all have an understanding that time does not exist... this makes complete sense.

Yay!!! I added my two cents!! Now I can die happy!!

[blazer1]

the most fundamental truth is, that no human can disagree with is: there are positive things we can do, and negative things we can do. And the general acceptence of a higher being (a God, another dimension of physics/logic, chi, jedi whatever) is also common.

its just the bullshit that wraps and fluffs this universal truth that bothers me.

[Rafael Perez]

Originally Posted by blazer1

the most fundamental truth is, that no human can disagree with is: there are positive things we can do, and negative things we can do. And the general acceptence of a higher being (a God, another dimension of physics/logic, chi, jedi whatever) is also common.

its just the bullshit that wraps and fluffs this universal truth that bothers me.

And that's ok for you if that is how you define yourself. Remember every moment, every action is an opportunity to define who we are.

I have no beef with religion. I could see the fear, and yes all negative stems from fear. There are a lot things that are done that do not make sense in the name of Christianity... But remember we are all united, give you an example:

When you realize that everyone on this planet is you in a different form, a completely different experience... you will see that you would also do the actions that you say you detest. It is not that you would be a bad person, because you are not... but your actions would be inline with your beliefs and the limitations that you set up for yourself through those beliefs...

So you see, you are both right.

Now I have a question, your post looks like it was filled with a bit of anger and frustration... is that what defines you?

[Jennihul]

Why would it take six days for a supposedly omnipotent being to create a world?

Because "six days" is a sort of code, or symbolism, that means something else entirely. The old testament, taken from the book of the Torah, is basically symbolic, not literal. On the level of creation, time, as we know it and relate to it, does not exist.

Jennifer

[blazer1]

this post brought out the anger and frustration in me, read it's title and then look at how smartalex timed his response to push those buttons in me. it was a egotistical response. But at the same time i saw an opportunity to express my views.

And then you come along and think you can be the higher wiser dude and settle all of this.

All ego. did you recognise that? If so, then we are both right.

(and it continues...)

[Rafael Perez]

Originally Posted by blazer1

this post brought out the anger and frustration in me, read it's title and then look at how smartalex timed his response to push those buttons in me. it was a egotistical response. But at the same time i saw an opportunity to express my views.

And then you come along and think you can be the higher wiser dude and settle all of this.

All ego. did you recognise that? If so, then we are both right.

(and it continues...)

Was it all ego? are you defining who you are right now? So Smartalex controls you, that's what you are saying. There are buttons that can be pushed? Is there a guidebook or an instruction manual that smartalex bought in order to know how to do this? or was he just born with this talent?

So many questions, so little time... but there is no such thing as time.

By the way thank you for calling me a higher and wiser "dude" I've never thought of myself this way.

[blazer1]

i cant believe you sell books on self-help. you are so naive.

[Jennihul]

Could we like attempt to remain civilized as I enjoy the intellectual aspect of these discussions and hate when they get locked because people lose control of their manners?

Jennifer

[Rafael Perez]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

Could we like attempt to remain civilized as I enjoy the intellectual aspect of these discussions and hate when they get locked because people lose control of their manners?

Jennifer

Sorry... it was just too easy, it was like flashing a big red button in my face that said "Don't Push"
I know better than that and I apologize.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Ree

I think we're discussing two totally different things.

I'm speaking of the belief that mankind has sinned and that Jesus came to earth and died on the cross as a sacrifice to God so that God would forgive the sins of all people. This i don't believe.

As far as Jesus dying on the cross "for the betterment of the people" as you say, I believe that's entirely possible. I think he did it to show us that we are not the body, to help us remember who we truly are.

But if the "sins of all people" were that we forgot who we were - ie. spirit, not body - then the two are the same.

If "original sin" was that we separated from God - and we use the story of Genesis as a metaphor instead of a literal interpretation - then the sacrifice Jesus made on the Cross - aka Tree of Life - did at least begin the process of helping people reconnect to God by becoming spiritually aware and active.

Again, for me, it's about sifting through the garbage to find the pearls. I think there's a lot of pearls in the passion story.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by blazer1

dont be so naive - there are a lot of considerations i make before what i write. it's kind of like how say, senior-management know what is really going down in the company, and the workers just go about their business thinking they are doing well. Then all of a sudden collapse (like all those bankrupt companies) ... the execs fcked up and workers fired. World destroyed.

The "church" before did control the people, until the "government" and "military" took over, - these people in power who control the government are either hereditary members or they are new members through CASH.

They make a lot of cash up there creating our world, (our matrix), and we just go in circles (the rat race) making money for them, trying to work towards a house, a car, and of course heaven. It's a system (capitalism) with flaws, just like communism and socialism has flaws. People are the problem. Once you are at the top of the human-food-chain ... you are living a different world. Theretically there is 1 most alpha person on this planet - this person will get chopped down as soon as another one comes up. This happens at the world domination level right down to your circle of friends.

Religion in this society was used as something to keep people in line, .. the church was an entity, a mass of minds making decisions, decisions on what cause they would support, what was right politically, what was wrong - whatever the church supported, its followers supported. And the people who made these decisions were under the guidance of the people in power. The alpha most group of humans on this planet (at any one time).

You brought up the Matrix, which is interesting because that is a rendition of the Christ story told in modern terms. If I were to make a criticism of Christianity, it is that churches do not inspire a person to become a christ. In Tibetan Buddhism, for example, you visualize yourself as a buddha in your meditation. It seems to me that this makes it much easier to fully realize what it means to be a buddha.

In the Matrix, I think most people want to be Neo. Who wouldn't want that kind of power over reality and the courage to fight the machines? The best the machines can do is mimic (predict) what a human being is or does and create a facade in order to use their energy for their own purposes. This is not unlike the elites in this world, our matrix.

The real elites are the enlightened beings trying to get us out of this. The oligarchs that run the machine can only mimic what the masters do in order to confuse us, steal our energy through indentured servitude, distraction and just enough hope so we don't revolt. And the first place they infect is the teachings of those masters trying to free us.