Subjective Reality - Life Is Not My Dream

[anotherthinker]

I know from personal experience my emotional resonance effects my reality BUT physical reality is not my individual dream or creation.
How do I know this? What's the proof?
LANGUAGE
When I was in infant form and knew no words or language how did I dream
others who could talk and speak and teach me to talk if everything in my personal reality is a product of my individual consciousness?

I also have experienced the validity of the one spirit here but it is only conscious and intellligent as each one of us.

Collectively it is unconscious and unintelligent...it is not dreaming this...
it is BEING this.

[munish]

Originally Posted by anotherthinker

I know from personal experience my emotional resonance effects my reality BUT physical reality is not my individual dream or creation.
How do I know this? What's the proof?

.

Here's is the Proof

[anotherthinker]

That really doesn't address my point...I'm making a serious point here
as I used to be an advocate of that philosophy.

How can we explain language relative to that theory of existence?

[StacyT]

I don't know if this helps you, but I remember back to my college days learning that if two people are raised together with no language, they will create one of their own with a structure that has nouns, verbs, adjectives, and so on.

We are taught specific verbs, adjectives, and nouns depending on the language we were raised to used, but if we were raised with no language, we would have taken these ideas from the collective conscience and made up words for them ourselves. The ideas are still there even if we have not been taught the actual words.

I don't know if I am making sense, here is a wikipedia page that may help.

[anotherthinker]

I understand what you're saying but that is just a common root of how language develops from the psyche of our species. Once again discovered after the fact of the experience.

If it were true that language is an innate part of my consciousness I would experience all parts of myself beginning to communicate simulyaneously, not one group
fully developed and communicating, teaching me and taking care of me as a helpless infant. And not all the different languages.

Language reveals previous experience otherwise we would be born speaking
or in my dream there would be no need for a learning process.

The development of intellect itself reveals a process over time based on memory.

[StacyT]

I think that the development of the intellect is based on the ego - on our physical life on this earth. But there is more to physical learning and experience that we don't see or even comprehend.

My personal belief is that everything we are is already within us. Whether or not we 'know' something in this physical world does not mean we don't know it on a deeper level of our spiritual selves.

Sometimes I have thoughts (and also dreams) that cannot be expressed in words not matter how hard I try. I feel that these thoughts are from somewhere beyond this physical world/ego.

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by anotherthinker

I understand what you're saying but that is just a common root of how language develops from the psyche of our species. Once again discovered after the fact of the experience.

If it were true that language is an innate part of my consciousness I would experience all parts of myself beginning to communicate simulyaneously, not one group
fully developed and communicating, teaching me and taking care of me as a helpless infant. And not all the different languages.

Language reveals previous experience otherwise we would be born speaking
or in my dream there would be no need for a learning process.

The development of intellect itself reveals a process over time based on memory.
This is the same insight which helped me to see existence is cyclical
The Eternal Cycle

You are trying to disprove subjective reality from a dualistic objective point of view. It is impossible by definition. No proof from an objective standpoint will ever apply to a subjective one. Language is only recognized when you experience it. You cannot recognize that language came before, you have no frame of reference for it. You get the impression that it came before, but you always experience that impression in the present, or now.

[anotherthinker]

Good points.
I formerly thought my whole reality was just my dream like in Delta or my sleep state BUT the development of LANGUAGE and INTELLECT throws a kink in my former logic.

I believe this physical universe is the moving and developing result of our
collective energy...you and I are temporary points of consciousness within the whole that's developed intellect and language through the collective experience and the use of memory.
It was on a moving path before my individual emergence and will be moving
on it's unconscious path after I merge back into the whole.

[anotherthinker]

You are trying to disprove subjective reality from a dualistic objective point of view.

Not so.
If reality is subjective then it's all about me...there is no 'other' to learn from.
So anything which is developed can only be developed by me...there is no one else.
So where did these 'teachers' come from and why did I forget how to walk and talk?

Unless reality is subjective and I'm just schizophrenic.<g>

[Angela]

Originally Posted by anotherthinker

physical reality is not my individual dream or creation.

It looks like you are thinking of who "You" are as this body, this brain, you call "anotherthinker." In subjective reality, the conscious that is really Who You Are includes but is not limited to anotherthinker. In your consciousness "anotherthinker" is an avatar, a representative, in the Human Game. "Angela" is another avatar, and still part of your consciousness -- part of Who You Are. You are creating "Angela" and everything you hear "me" say.

You are right -- there is no "other" to learn from. It's all aspect of you. Why did you forget how to walk and talk? The same reason you think your problems are really problems. The same reason you experience pain in relationships; the same reason you suffer because you wish you had more money or love or fitness or whatever. The same reason you forgot how to realize who you really are -- infinite power and abundance: because you wanted to play the Human Game, to uncover the illusions you set up for yourself, and have the joy and fun of expanding more and more into who you really are.

[Rachelle]

Originally Posted by anotherthinker

Not so.
If reality is subjective then it's all about me...there is no 'other' to learn from.
So anything which is developed can only be developed by me...there is no one else.
So where did these 'teachers' come from and why did I forget how to walk and talk?

Unless reality is subjective and I'm just schizophrenic.<g>

I think this theory works if you believe there is only you because every-one is One, and that One is You. (haha, now it sounds like Neo and the Matrix.)

*scratches head*

As for Memory - we're born with the capacity to Remember, and thus with the capacity to Learn. For without the capacity to remember we could never be self-aware/conscious. Perhaps we need to Forget to make way for the opportunity to Learn. Maybe your subconscious does Remember... but you aren't aware of it because it is not in your Conscious Memory.

... I wonder if that makes any sense...

[anotherthinker]

Well of course I have this perspective and I know there is only 'ONE' life force or energy here.....
but that ONE is 'always present', unconscious, unintelligent ...
THAT IS THE REAL SUBJECTIVE REALITY not based on our thoughts or images or ultimately our input at all.

You and I are the little appendages that have sprouted during this stage of the ONE's energetic expansion.
Sure we can effect our personal spaces but this is not our dream or anyones..
it is the expansion and contraction of eternal energy...the REAL ONE...the eternal 'pulse'...and it's our priveledge to figure that out and enjoy the show before we slide back into unconsciousness again.

[anotherthinker]

I think a better question to ask ourself would be...
why do we have to ignore the obvious explanation about what's happening here and that our brightest scientific minds confirm?

Is it because we hate to face the truth that ultimately we have no control and who we are now we will lose?

What did The FLaming Lips say In The Morning Of The Magicians?

"As the dawn began to break - I had to surrender
The universe will have its way - too powerful to master"

???

[Angela]

Originally Posted by anotherthinker

You and I are the little appendages that have sprouted during this stage of the ONE's energetic expansion..

Speak for yourself, Little Sprout!

[Marco Polo]

I consider the assumption of an objective materialistic universe - and indeed it does constitute a mere assumption - is absolutely vital to human discourse. Piaget's object permanance, empiricism, tangible movements in space and time... it's just so hardwired in our brains. Even little kids acquire these concepts at a very young age.

It should be noted that basically everyone - including the self proclaimed "subjective realists" (which is essentially only Mr.Pavlina's term for an age-old idea) - use empiricism and object permanence as their primary mode of discourse. Life would be EXTREMELY complicated and arbitrary (not to mention intellectually chaotic) if we didn't do this.

When we assume ourselves to be the sole arbitors of reality we assume there is no will (or entity) independent of our own conscious creation. A view which, although philosophically conceivable, is probably more appropriate as enthralling dinner conversation than anything else.

Reverence for reality is more important than our perceived mastery of it.

MODS: THIS SHOULD BE MOVED TO SPIRITUALLY, CONSCIOUSNESS & AWARENESS.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

I consider the assumption of an objective materialistic universe - and indeed it does constitute a mere assumption - is absolutely vital to human discourse. Piaget's object permanance, empiricism, tangible movements in space and time... it's just so hardwired in our brains.

And I consider that a hardwired objective material universe is not real, that it's made up my my/your consciousness, and that it's a brilliant illusion that we have created for ourselves -- neither vital nor necessary to human discourse.

It should be noted that basically everyone - including the self proclaimed "subjective realists" (which is essentially only Mr.Pavlina's term for an age-old idea) - use empiricism and object permanence as their primary mode of discourse. Life would be EXTREMELY complicated and arbitrary (not to mention intellectually chaotic) if we didn't do this.

You are sure about that? I am finding it awfully fun, creative, and productive lately to be communicating with others who are freeing themselves of the limits of their illusions, and expanding more and more into the limitless power and abundance that is our true nature. It's joyful and loving, not complicated and arbitrary! I can see how it might look complicated and arbitrary, though, to someone who still buys into the illusion -- just like the spinning ballerina, and how convinced people are that the "control" lies outside yourself.

When we assume ourselves to be the sole arbitors of reality we assume there is no will (or entity) independent of our own conscious creation. A view which, although philosophically conceivable, is probably more appropriate as enthralling dinner conversation than anything else.

Well, you are welcome to limit it to the dinner table, if you wish! Once again, the limits are self-imposed.

MODS: THIS SHOULD BE MOVED TO SPIRITUALLY, CONSCIOUSNESS & AWARENESS.

You are so right -- it as been moved.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by anotherthinker

That really doesn't address my point...I'm making a serious point here
as I used to be an advocate of that philosophy.

How can we explain language relative to that theory of existence?

Substitute the word "telepathy, and it'll make more sense.

[Marco Polo]

Originally Posted by Angela

And I consider that a hardwired objective material universe is not real, that it's made up my my/your consciousness, and that it's a brilliant illusion that we have created for ourselves -- neither vital nor necessary to human discourse.

Right on the money - it IS a brilliant illusion - look at what we've achieved with it! If empiricism puts a man on the moon, there's no telling what it could do for personal development. LOL

You are sure about that? I am finding it awfully fun, creative, and productive lately to be communicating with others who are freeing themselves of the limits of their illusions, and expanding more and more into the limitless power and abundance that is our true nature. It's joyful and loving, not complicated and arbitrary! I can see how it might look complicated and arbitrary, though, to someone who still buys into the illusion -- just like the spinning ballerina, and how convinced people are that the "control" lies outside yourself.

Again, a spinning ballerina -in all its magnificent graciousness - doesn't quite match up to the achievements of scientific empiricism. Forget its illusory nature - it's an illusion destined for pure greatness - and a structured universe less prone to the superstitions of subjectivity. Actually I take issue with calling it an "illusion", but for the sake of rational argument I will transcend that particular conviction.

Oh and I'll ignore the implicit assumption that I'm naively buying into socially conditioned dogma (though I must say I'm flattered Angela). By your definition I've already "freed" myself from the "illusion" simply by grasping the nature of its limitations (but also its monumental importance).

Well, you are welcome to limit it to the dinner table, if you wish! Once again, the limits are self-imposed.

Self-imposed limits can be imperative.

I personally believe I will never soar the skies like Superman in a pink jumpsuit, or make 2 + 2 = 5. Evidently these limits are self-imposed. But are they rational? Healthy? Mature?

I believe my car keys will stay put where I left them - no amount of wishful thinking can transport them. This is object permanance, self-imposed yet imperative to finding my car keys.

Not to say that I subjugate myself to the Universe just because I acknowledge entities outside my consciousness. Au contrair, it makes me more vigilant and allows for creativity when met with opposing forces.

And it instills me with a majestic reverence for the universe and my place in it.

You are so right -- it as been moved.

Thank you for that.

[anotherthinker]

Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.

The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony" or "law of succinctness"): "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity".

PS: Still no one has given a viable solution to the LANGUAGE and INTELLECT challenge.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

If empiricism puts a man on the moon, there's no telling what it could do for personal development. LOL

I don't believe that empiricism put a man on the moon.

Again, a spinning ballerina -in all its magnificent graciousness - doesn't quite match up to the achievements of scientific empiricism.

Match up? I think it does match up -- they're both made up by our consciousness. I know, you believe one is made up and the other is "real."

Oh and I'll ignore the implicit assumption that I'm naively buying into socially conditioned dogma (though I must admit I'm extremely flattered).

Who said anything about naively buying into socially conditioned dogma? I'm not talking about socially conditioned dogma at all. See, you made that up, too!

Self-imposed limits can be imperative.

Really? You have no choice? I find them to be elective.

I personally believe I will never soar the skies like Superman in a pink jumpsuit, or make 2 + 2 = 5. Evidently these limits are self-imposed. But are they rational? Healthy? Mature?

Do you mean, is it rational, healthy, an mature to believe in these limits? I personally have soared the skies like Superman in a pink jumpsuit, amazingly enough, and I can't predict with any certainty that I won't do it again.

I believe my car keys will stay put where I left them - no amount of wishful thinking can transport them. This is object permanance, self-imposed yet imperative to finding my car keys.

Again, who is talking about wishful thinking? What I'm talking about in this thread has absolutely nothing to do with wishful thinking -- that is yet another thing you are making up! (not that that's a bad thing.)

And it instills me with a majestic reverence for the universe and my place in it.

That sounds like it would feel good.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by anotherthinker

PS: Still no one has given a viable solution to the LANGUAGE and INTELLECT challenge.

Not one that you were able (willing?) to hear, anyway.

[Marco Polo]

Occam's razor couldn't cut through butter on a hot summers day.

[bellemeadows]

Well, so I guess what you are saying is the thing that holds you back from thinking our experience could be a dream is that language cannot be explained within a dream-world context. So your basic, underlying belief then, is that the mind could not create a complex, consistent and coherent experience within a dream, including experiences like that of learned language, etc.?

Is that what you are saying?

Just trying to understand. Belle, :

[bellemeadows]

Originally Posted by Angela

. . . . Do you mean, is it rational, healthy, an mature to believe in these limits? I personally have soared the skies like Superman in a pink jumpsuit, amazingly enough, and I can't predict with any certainty that I won't do it again. . . .

Ohhhhhh, this sounds like lots of fun. I want some of that!!!!! Belle,

[Marco Polo]

Originally Posted by Angela

Do you mean, is it rational, healthy, an mature to believe in these limits?

I'd say literally believing that I can't be Mr. fictional superhero is quite healthy, yes. Through well reasoned awareness of my inherent limitations I make myself 10 000 times more powerful b/c I know exactly what to aim for.

SO I build myself a mechanical flying machine instead. Wanna race?

As for 2 + 2 = 5, you would have to explicitly refute mathematical logic to make that happen. Which makes me think: If you refuse to play by the (self-imposed) rules of logic, why am I speaking to you as if you were somehow rational human being? Alright, let's go with the nihilism. I might as well say:

as&dsfklöj¤$€{][jsklaödf}]. fdsajfdlsöa fdks afjkldöjsa fklödsaj kfljklö jeowijr!!!

There you go, that's my creation. Now decipher it. -- by the way, the reason I don't usually write like this is because we (yes, including you) set LIMITS on semantics. Rules that, despite their somewhat malleable nature, have proved incredibly useful in our present communication, haven't they?

Originally Posted by Angela

I personally have soared the skies like Superman in a pink jumpsuit, amazingly enough, and I can't predict with any certainty that I won't do it again.

Teach me?

Again, who is talking about wishful thinking? What I'm talking about in this thread has absolutely nothing to do with wishful thinking -- that is yet another thing you are making up! (not that that's a bad thing.)

Oh I know what you're saying here. Believe me, I'm not completely alien to this mindset, having adopted it partially myself (and fully for a short period of time). So if you think our disagreement simply means I'm refusing to "open" myself, you're just flat out wrong.

[anotherthinker]

Well, so I guess what you are saying is the thing that holds you back from thinking our experience could be a dream is that language cannot be explained within a dream-world context. So your basic, underlying belief then, is that the mind could not create a complex, consistent and coherent experience within a dream, including experiences like that of learned language, etc.?

Is that what you are saying?

Thanks Belle - you're the only one here (pun intended) so far that hasn't taken a defensive attitude.

I too believed reality is totally a subjective reality (even wrote Blogs about it)
and I still believe it is on an impersonal level (energy).

I don't believe any ONE of us can dream the universe into stopping it's current expansion, the true ONE is doing it's energetic thing regardless of
our mental influence (I'm glad too we'd probably screw up existence).

The red flag for me is there is no way to account for 'developed traits' (intelligence, language, etc) if I am all there is.

If there are really no 'others'... how did I teach myself language, how to walk, etc....these are traits acquired through objective interactions.

There are two dimensions..the ONE subjective reality (known as the 'unified field') and the objective reality - a temporary manifestation created by the actions of the ONE as it pulses, or expands and contracts.

[bellemeadows]

I don't think there is any way of knowing one way or another, only a belief.

The thing is, if we are dreaming, the implication is that we do not know what our waking state is. Since our waking state could be as unlimited beings, there is no reason why this could not be a dream, and still appear to have rationality attached to it.

What if we are one, dreaming of being many. If you hold up one finger, and you assume that one finger is infinity, or perhaps the void as others have described it, than math is not material.

If our waking state is so very different, we might, bottom-line, have no concept or clue.

Just my thoughts -- Belle,

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

So if you think our disagreement simply means I'm refusing to "open" myself, you're just flat out wrong.

You are so funny! You make so many assumptions about my thoughts, you make so many leaps to conclusions that have nothing whatsoever to do with what I've said. That's one way you are creating your reality in a very subjective way -- and with language!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by anotherthinker

Thanks Belle - you're the only one here (pun intended) so far that hasn't taken a defensive attitude..

??????

You are very, very good at creating your own subjective reality!

[Marco Polo]

Originally Posted by anotherthinker

Thanks Belle - you're the only one here (pun intended) so far that hasn't taken a defensive attitude.

If you issue a "challenge", why not expect people to battle it out? Heated discussion are more creative than tame ones. At least if we agree it's all in the name of good fun and games...

But if I'm coming off a bit defensive I might add I'm severely sleep deprived (two hours sleep in three nights!). *irony intended, i realize i'm being defensive yet again*