Ethics of Eating Meat

[Mato Kinze]

[MODERATOR NOTE: This new thread continues a conversation that was off-topic in it's original thread, Time to Die.]


I'll apologize up front if I offend anyone. But this is a button of mine and one that gets me fairly passionate.

Everything that "lives" consumes other things. Whether it's a Lion hunting and stalking a Gazelle, a Shark hunting fish, a Whale eating Plankton, or even a plant breaking down bacteria and other elements in the soil, all things use other things to survive. This is not evil nor 'unfair'. It is Life.

If we recognize this fact and also recognize that we are a part of this and not apart from it, and we accept that we are intricately related to everything around us, we force ourselves into a position of humility and respect.

When you respect that which you consume, you do honor to its life and its sacrifice that you may continue to live.

Where we have fallen down as a society and a culture is in the lack of thanks and respect we feel for that which we consume. Even the main religion in our western culture thanks "God" for the food we consume, not the beings themselves; and that's for those few who actually take the time to say "grace" before meals.

We buy meat sliced and packaged in neat little styrofoam and plastic containers so that there's no way to even know that it once was a part of a living, breathing being. We forget to honor and thank the spirit of that being that sacrificed itself for us. When a hunter stalks and kills it's prey, this is not evil. This is not wrong. As with everything, it is the intent with which we do things that determines whether or not our actions are honorable.

This is true of consuming plants too. So those who seem to find some self-rightousness in not consuming the flesh of animals and yet devour plants without regard for their sacrifice are just as spiritually bereft as those who do so with animals.

As for choosing the time of your death, let me relate a hunting story to you and let you decide:

A friend was out hunting with his teenage son - teaching him how to so with integrity, respect and honor. They went out in the early morning, before dawn, and found a spot close to a water source where they knew deer came to drink. They settled in and began to wait patiently.

They didn't have to wait long. A buck and three does came along the track and began to drink. The son, seeing the beautiful rack on the Buck, began to take aim. My friend stopped him, "Not yet," he signalled. The animals continued to drink, unaware of the two hunters in the bushes.

Then, one of the does pricked her ears and looked straight at my friend. The two looked each other dead in the eye for about 30 seconds. At that point, the doe stepped away from the others and turned sideways to my friend and his son with her head and tail straight up.

My friend tapped his son on the shoulder, pointed to the doe and said, "Her. She's offering." The son took careful aim and dropped the doe in a single shot with tears in his eyes, honoring the sacrifice of that animal.

That is respect. That is how we should live - not by some "holier-than-thou-'cause-I-don't-eat-meat" mentality. And for those who don't hunt their own food, simply acknowledging the animal and its sacrifice is a step closer to integrity. My 10 year old daughter has taken to asking me at every meal where we serve meat what animal it came from so that she can thank it properly. I find this far more respectful than someone who uses the label of "vegatarian" as some kind of status symbol or clique inclusion.

[Kaspian]

Thank you, Mato, for articulating that so clearly. Having grown up on a farm, eating animals I named and fed, and now growing several fruits and vegetables in my own yard, I have clearly sensed that it's important to respect and appreciate all that you harvest to sustain yourself, both plant and animal.

[The David]

There's also the whole central nervous system thing, which motivates some to take up vegetarianism.

[Bene]

I've been pondering this lately. I was wondering whether it is really right for me to preach vegetarianism to my friends and family.

Its all about intent... you are right mato kinze. Great post and what a story!

Not eating animals is a personal choice for me and I will not bring it up with family and friends from now on. But I will remember to say thanks from now before I eat anything. (A prayer of gratitude to the animals, farmers and everyone else)

A good question I have in mind is whether offering thanks clears the food of the negative vibrations or suffering. I ask this because obviously a lot of the food, meat or not, is handled by negative people or produced without honor and respect.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Bene

I've been pondering this lately. I was wondering whether it is really right for me to preach vegetarianism to my friends and family.

Its all about intent... you are right mato kinze. Great post and what a story!

Not eating animals is a personal choice for me and I will not bring it up with family and friends from now on. But I will remember to say thanks from now before I eat anything. (A prayer of gratitude to the animals, farmers and everyone else)

A good question I have in mind is whether offering thanks clears the food of the negative vibrations or suffering. I ask this because obviously a lot of the food, meat or not, is handled by negative people or produced without honor and respect.

That's a really good point and thank you for bringing it up. I said that praying in grattitude prior to eating anything was "..a step closer to integrity." Your point is exactly where that statement was coming from. All the reasons many people tout as the impetus for being vegatarian are legitimate. I don't argue that industry has turned hunting into "animal farming and harvesting," nor that many of the practices used in creating this consumer mechanism are horrendous. They are. And the energy they put into the food we as consumers ingest is equally horrendous.

Much of the changes that are happening in the marketplace today in the U.S. (a move to organic foods, free-range, antibiotic-free, all natural, even some of the remarkable industry changes at the farming level) are a direct result of people who spoke out against those same horrendous practices. The collective conscience of the American People has been tweaked. This is good.

I don't know how much of that horrendous energy is cleared by praying in grattitude and acknowldging the sacrifice, but I am confident that the more we as individuals recognize our interconectedness to all things, the less we'll need to clear.

I have nothing against vegatarians or vegans and openly respect anyone who lives their life according to the beliefs and values they purport. To each his/her own. My frustration comes with those who do so out of some misguided or illconceived notion of rightousness.

Thank you for listening with an open heart to my rant and again, I apologize if I've offended.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

Everything that "lives" consumes other things. Whether it's a Lion hunting and stalking a Gazelle, a Shark hunting fish, a Whale eating Plankton, or even a plant breaking down bacteria and other elements in the soil, all things use other things to survive. This is not evil nor 'unfair'. It is Life.

Very true. Eating meat needn't be at all negative. When I was visiting a few local farms this weekend, my girlfriend pointed out just how nice the man leading us around his biodynamic farm was. If he'd taken on any sort of negative energy, he must have transmuted it or it certainly didn't show. He had free range beef, lamb, goat, vegetables, eggs and such. And by free range, the hens had a fence, but during the day it was open and they were freely wandering around the rest of the farm and dining on the compost pile. It was just a very relaxing, lovely place to be, and the prices were good.

Some people think that meat inhibits spirituality, while native Americans often had the opposite view, that when an animal relinquishes its body to you in a respectful exchange, some of its spiritual energy is added to yours.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by openeyes

Very true. Eating meat needn't be at all negative. When I was visiting a few local farms this weekend, my girlfriend pointed out just how nice the man leading us around his biodynamic farm was. If he'd taken on any sort of negative energy, he must have transmuted it or it certainly didn't show. He had free range beef, lamb, goat, vegetables, eggs and such. And by free range, the hens had a fence, but during the day it was open and they were freely wandering around the rest of the farm and dining on the compost pile. It was just a very relaxing, lovely place to be, and the prices were good.

Some people think that meat inhibits spirituality, while native Americans often had the opposite view, that when an animal relinquishes its body to you in a respectful exchange, some of its spiritual energy is added to yours.

Aho (amen).

[borisg]

By your argument, the civilizations that have practiced cannabalism in the past were justified in killing and eating human beings as long as the humans they killed for food we're slaughtered humanely? Is this correct?

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by borisg

By your argument, the civilizations that have practiced cannabalism in the past were justified in killing and eating human beings as long as the humans they killed for food we're slaughtered humanely? Is this correct?

No.

First of all, your statement doesn't make any sense. Those indiginous peoples who ate human flesh normally did so, not as a form of sustenance, but rather as a form of worship. Eating a deceased relative - or more specifically certain parts of that relative - ensured that their essence would remain active and that their soul would remain tied to the community in order to serve the People. In the alternative, an enemy may be eaten in order to imbibe that enemy's power and make it your own. Anyone throughout history who consumed human flesh for sustenance was in a desparate strait and their own survival likely depended on it.

Secondly, "justified" is a subjective term and is predicated on a set of morals and values that not all cultures - let alone individuals - share. To say that any act is "justified" has to assume congruent belief systems.

[Rachelle]

I agree, mostly, with what Mato Kinze has to say in regards to meat eating.

I myself am a vegan and have been for over 6 years now. I don't like to think of my actions or reasons behind my decisions as being righteous, although I do know some vegans who feel that they are better than non-vegans for certain reasons.

I do not believe that eating animals in and of itself is wrong, but it does seem unnecessary to me. And if an animal suffers unnecessarily, that is to say we can easily live off of plants and seeds, then why kill the animal for food if it is not necessary?

One philosophy of mine, in regard to meat-eating - if you eat meat and you would be fine with the idea of killing/slaughtering an animal so that you can eat - then that is fine - Your actions align with your views and beliefs. But what I don't understand, as an example, is when someone who eats meat can't stand the idea of eating meat that is still attached to the bone, because it reminds them that the meat came from a living animal. If someone is bothered by that, then in my humble opinion they really should not be eating meat, as they seem to be uncomfortable with the whole idea behind it and their actions do not align with their beliefs.

I know for me, personally, I could simply not see myself killing an animal for food. I just can't. If I was starving and I would die otherwise, maybe I might change my mind, but even trying to imagine that scenario I simply can't imagine myself being able to do it and maybe I would starve, or I'd be bawling while doing it. I'm not trying to say I'm better than anyone else, I'm just saying that's the way I am. And since that's the way I am, I choose to be vegan, because this allows my actions concerned with food choices to be aligned with my beliefs and views on suffering and animals, etc.

I just wanted to put in my two cents. I hope that's ok?

Much love,
Rachelle

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Rachelle

I agree, mostly, with what Mato Kinze has to say in regards to meat eating.

I myself am a vegan and have been for over 6 years now. I don't like to think of my actions or reasons behind my decisions as being righteous, although I do know some vegans who feel that they are better than non-vegans for certain reasons.

I do not believe that eating animals in and of itself is wrong, but it does seem unnecessary to me. And if an animal suffers unnecessarily, that is to say we can easily live off of plants and seeds, then why kill the animal for food if it is not necessary?

One philosophy of mine, in regard to meat-eating - if you eat meat and you would be fine with the idea of killing/slaughtering an animal so that you can eat - then that is fine - Your actions align with your views and beliefs. But what I don't understand, as an example, is when someone who eats meat can't stand the idea of eating meat that is still attached to the bone, because it reminds them that the meat came from a living animal. If someone is bothered by that, then in my humble opinion they really should not be eating meat, as they seem to be uncomfortable with the whole idea behind it and their actions do not align with their beliefs.

I know for me, personally, I could simply not see myself killing an animal for food. I just can't. If I was starving and I would die otherwise, maybe I might change my mind, but even trying to imagine that scenario I simply can't imagine myself being able to do it and maybe I would starve, or I'd be bawling while doing it. I'm not trying to say I'm better than anyone else, I'm just saying that's the way I am. And since that's the way I am, I choose to be vegan, because this allows my actions concerned with food choices to be aligned with my beliefs and views on suffering and animals, etc.

I just wanted to put in my two cents. I hope that's ok?

Much love,
Rachelle

It's more than ok, it's greatly appreciated. I think we're saying the same thing: Live your life with integrity, honor all that is around you and do honor to yourself through your actions.

I hold in high esteem those who live their beliefs humbly. It's something I struggle with.

[Rachelle]

well thank you!
i'm (probably obviously) quite new to these forums.

i'd like to make friends here but i'm not entirely sure the best way.
so i thought i'd hop in and post a reply

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Rachelle

well thank you!
i'm (probably obviously) quite new to these forums.

i'd like to make friends here but i'm not entirely sure the best way.
so i thought i'd hop in and post a reply

So far as I can tell, that's the best way.

Welcome, and jump in anywhere. A well-considered opinion is one of the most valuable things to be found here and anyone who's willing to post one is equally valued.

[borisg]

Not to pick on you Mato...

but your hunting story was disturbing. Of all the places on the internet, Steve Pavlina...come on.

There is nothing respectful about teaching a teenager take the life of an innocent animal.

Was it respectful to the deer's mother or relatives? Or do you believe that the mother or other relative of the deer have no feelings?

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by borisg

Not to pick on you Mato...

but your hunting story was disturbing. Of all the places on the internet, Steve Pavlina...come on.

There is nothing respectful about teaching a teenager take the life of an innocent animal.

Was it respectful to the deer's mother or relatives? Or do you believe that the mother or other relative of the deer have no feelings?

I don't feel picked on... yet... (Though I suspect that's coming. As you said, "...of all places on the net, Steve Pavlina?") But I do feel that you seem to be missing the point.

The lesson the young man in question learned was not killing - he could do that the second he picked up a gun. The lesson he learned was one of understanding his place in this world and that the ability to choose to show respect (or not to show respect) to all our relations with regards to our actions and vis-a-vis our place is not just an ability, but a responsibility unique to humans and the human experience.

We are hunters. We hunt, kill and eat other animals to survive. The fact that in the last one hundred years - out of the last FORTY THOUSAND - we have had the luxury of choosing not to be, does not change our nature or our place in the Great Circle. I would argue that it is because of this luxury that we have FORGOTTEN what our place in the Great Circle truly is.

Do not attempt to assign human emotions or "feelings" to anything other than a human. It's nonsensical. To say that anything other than a human would react, respond, or think like a human is ignorant and illconceived at best and arrogant at worst. To ask if it was respectful to the deer's mother or relatives shows me two things: 1. You don't think that you are a relative of this particular - or possibly any - deer, and 2. You seem to think that deer have the same understanding or experience of the world that you or I do. Do you believe that the deer in question distiguishes a Human predator any differently than a wolf pack, pack of coyotes, mountain lion, or any other predator? Certainly not. Are we, then, to assign ourselve some other, more lofty position? I don't believe so. And that is the point of the lesson the young man learned from my friend when he chose to select the deer that was offering herself instead of the 8 point buck that he could've had as a trophy. That was respecting the sacrifice of that deer. A sacrifice that was accepted by the deer and communicated to the hunter.

When we acknowledge who and what we are with clarity and authenticity, without prejudice or arrogance, we can begin to once again understand our place in this world.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

Do not attempt to assign human emotions or "feelings" to anything other than a human. It's nonsensical.

I quite agree.

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

We buy meat sliced and packaged in neat little styrofoam and plastic containers so that there's no way to even know that it once was a part of a living, breathing being.

This is going to sound crazy but I'm going to interject a little bit of manifestation in the moment here. I create all my experiences and the world I live in -- in the moment. No past, no future.

When I go to the grocery store and grab 1lb. of ground chicken for my tacos, I manifest 1lb. of ground chicken on a styrofoam dish right there in that moment. It didn't come off a truck, it didn't come from a factory farm, it came from my consciousness. Now. Nothing died. I manifested ground chicken. Ok.

But.... I (and the entire human race it seems) also have a habit of manifesting denial with my experience. So I no longer have "the moment" but a past now manifests for this chicken and a process that got it into my hands. A process is a set of steps that happens over time. Right there I know I'm playing with denial. I'm playing with past and I'm playing with linkage (the steps in the process). Manifestation needs no process or set of steps, it happens, now, without effort.

So I manifest a back-story for this chicken because my consciousness believes in time and linkage. It looks like this: At a farm the chicken is born --> raised --> brought to slaughter --> put on refrigerated truck --> arrives at my supermarket --> I buy the chicken. That's all unnecessary, but I manifest it along with my choice to have chicken tacos tonight.

And I make it a much more emotionally charged subject by pretending the animals behave, think, and feel like humans. So now I get in a fight with myself about morals and ethics and all sort of other distractions and am totally lost on the fact that my choice manifests in the moment (which is really where my consciousness needs to go). I'm choosing chicken and I'm choosing to experience denial in the forms of past and linkage and I want to blame it on society, farmers, meat-eaters, etc., because I don't want to receive I'm playing the denial-game with my choice.

[jeff3]

IMO, the trend toward veganism is out of guilt.

The average person, in the USA at least, is so far removed from the food chain that they have no comprehension of what it takes to feed the many mouths in this world. Some people just think the food comes from the grocery store and have no idea how the process works, so when PETA or some other group puts together a bunch of clips from the worst of the worst farms and uploads it to Youtube they all think that is what every farm in the world is like and they are made to feel guilty about eating meat, which is the aim of the films. This is pure propaganda meant to shock and guilt people into seeing the world through PETA colored glasses.

People no longer are exposed to raising their own animals or actually killing something to eat, as they were less than 100 years ago, so now, when they witness this or really stop and consider it, it seems foreign and wrong, but nothing has changed, except they pay someone else to do the processing and this separation from the process has caused people to become squeamish simply by lack of exposure to the process.

I'm sure most would consider childbirth "gross" too and would like to sanitize it somehow so their sensibilities aren't offended, maybe they could have digital children, and while we are at it, let's outlaw bowell movements, how disgusting they are.

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by jeff3

IMO, the trend toward veganism is out of guilt.

The average person, in the USA at least, is so far removed from the food chain that they have no comprehension of what it takes to feed the many mouths in this world. Some people just think the food comes from the grocery store and have no idea how the process works, so when PETA or some other group puts together a bunch of clips from the worst of the worst farms and uploads it to Youtube they all think that is what every farm in the world is like and they are made to feel guilty about eating meat, which is the aim of the films. This is pure propaganda meant to shock and guilt people into seeing the world through PETA colored glasses.

People no longer are exposed to raising their own animals or actually killing something to eat, as they were less than 100 years ago, so now, when they witness this or really stop and consider it, it seems foreign and wrong, but nothing has changed, except they pay someone else to do the processing and this separation from the process has caused people to become squeamish simply by lack of exposure to the process.

I'm sure most would consider childbirth "gross" too and would like to sanitize it somehow so their sensibilities aren't offended, maybe they could have digital children, and while we are at it, let's outlaw bowell movements, how disgusting they are.

I don't subscribe to your view. I've read and seen enough from many animal rights organizations to believe that factory farming is disgusting. Yes I still eat meat. I tried vegitarianism for a while, twice now, because I think it's dreadful the way we farm animals. To my own disgrace, I keep going back to eating meat that was raised and slaughtered on factory farms.
I am hoping to do better someday, at least to buy a freezer and try and purchase my meat/fowl from local organic free ranging farms.

I really enjoyed the OP, and wish things were different for me, but that doesn't change the fact that as a race, we humans are not doing right by the animals. But hey, why should they be different. We don't do right by each other either. 24,000 children die each and every day due to causes related to extreme poverty.
I just don't want to stand by and hear someone say that it doesn't happen, because it does. Our corporate farms are a testament to how depraved we are.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Dharma

I quite agree.



This is going to sound crazy but I'm going to interject a little bit of manifestation in the moment here. I create all my experiences and the world I live in -- in the moment. No past, no future.

When I go to the grocery store and grab 1lb. of ground chicken for my tacos, I manifest 1lb. of ground chicken on a styrofoam dish right there in that moment. It didn't come off a truck, it didn't come from a factory farm, it came from my consciousness. Now. Nothing died. I manifested ground chicken. Ok.

But.... I (and the entire human race it seems) also have a habit of manifesting denial with my experience. So I no longer have "the moment" but a past now manifests for this chicken and a process that got it into my hands. A process is a set of steps that happens over time. Right there I know I'm playing with denial. I'm playing with past and I'm playing with linkage (the steps in the process). Manifestation needs no process or set of steps, it happens, now, without effort.

So I manifest a back-story for this chicken because my consciousness believes in time and linkage. It looks like this: At a farm the chicken is born --> raised --> brought to slaughter --> put on refrigerated truck --> arrives at my supermarket --> I buy the chicken. That's all unnecessary, but I manifest it along with my choice to have chicken tacos tonight.

And I make it a much more emotionally charged subject by pretending the animals behave, think, and feel like humans. So now I get in a fight with myself about morals and ethics and all sort of other distractions and am totally lost on the fact that my choice manifests in the moment (which is really where my consciousness needs to go). I'm choosing chicken and I'm choosing to experience denial in the forms of past and linkage and I want to blame it on society, farmers, meat-eaters, etc., because I don't want to receive I'm playing the denial-game with my choice.

Well.... that's one way to look at it I guess....