Four points about Daoism

[shnu]

In a high traffic thread, Keith wrote about wuwei:

Originally Posted by Keith

It's kind of a hard concept to wrap your head around. It's one you have to intuit and experience rather than understand cerebrally. "Nonaction" is a mistranslation. It's often translated "effortless action" or "actionless action" (one of those apparent paradoxes that eastern philosophy is so fond of).

It's not inaction, it's appropriate (natural) action taken in the way that meets no resistance.

Did you read the parable about cutting up an ox that I posted? That sums it up rather well (vegetarian concerns aside).

P.S. When I refer to Daoism, I'm referring to philosophical Daoism, rather than religious Daoism, though that's a hard line to draw.

to which Plato responded:

Originally Posted by Plato

Yeah, I read the parable and I didn't get it. I actually decided to read the Daodejing after reading your post..... and I still didn't get Daoism! Then I re-read the parable and I think I got it. What a mission! I tried this actionless action thing and it seems to me like a more efficient way of framing the concept of being "present." The word that really encompasses it for me is "spontaneity" and I like it. It feels like an innocent, child like way of being the way I was doing it.

In relation to the polarities topic I don't think Daoism is in contradiction to lightworking at all... in fact i would argue that it is lightworking in perfection. A total appreciation of simplicity and the moment, accompanied by perfect efforless action...

Five points:

1. Spelling: Tao is the older rendering of the Chinese character into English, in the Wade-Giles system, whilst Dao is the rendering of the modern Pinyin system. Pinyin is far more widely used, captures more nuances of Chinese pronunciation, and virtually all scholarship today uses it. However, many people find Wade Giles more poetic, some Chinese ex-pats prefer it for that reason. There's not much risk of confuion using whichever one you prefer, provided you use it consistently.

2. Zhuangzi (Wade-Giles: Chuang Tzu)'s parable isn't about a butcher by accident: butchers and undertakers, as handlers of dead caracssses, were regarded as the lowest of the low, virtually untouchables, due to the spiritual pollution for their craft. The parable asserts that spiritual merit is to be found even here.

3. I explain wuwei as purpose-emptied action, where the intention does not go beyond the action, and yes, it is about being in the present.

4. Many new-agey types like to make out that daoism is a do-good religion, and do so generally with some pretty tendentious reinterpretation of the Daoist classics. There are some injunctions in Daoist religion against doing evil, and talk of retribution in the afterlife for evildoers, but there is precious little encouragement that I can find to do good. The Daodejing (Wade Giles: Tao te ching) does not look to me like a manual for building strong, consistent outflows.

5. Daoist religion: the daoist classics provide very little support for prevalent daoist religious practice. Daoist religious practice is generally animist, with propitiation of nature spirits and ancestor worship, and a concept of the afterlife that looks to me as if it is borrowed from Confucianism, complete with being held to account by a panel of judges and a series of hells tailored for different ways one might mislead one's life. Daoist funerals gives a good overview of daoist customs here.

[Jamie]

Just to say, if you 'get' Daoism, then it's not Daoism. It refers, or points to, an aspect of yourself that is previous to (more profound than) thought forms and mental concepts. It's not something you can grasp.

I would say there is a big difference between Daoism and light working...

With Daoism, there is an inherent order, or way; of the universe. All living things are endowed with this intrinsic intelligence, to follow the way of nature. When you try to be good, you are coming from a place of ego, just as much as you would be if you were trying to be selfish or evil. So you inhibit the ability of this intrinsic intelligence, to work through you; because your own ego is in the way.

I believe, in Daoism, emtiness is the greatest virtue, and morals are considered a mere contrivance? It's letting go of ego, moralising, contrivance, and allowing what is there, that remains when all falseness is gone, to come forth.

Jamie.

[Keith]

Good idea moving this to its own thread.

Originally Posted by Plato

Yeah, I read the parable and I didn't get it. I actually decided to read the Daodejing after reading your post..... and I still didn't get Daoism! Then I re-read the parable and I think I got it. What a mission! I tried this actionless action thing and it seems to me like a more efficient way of framing the concept of being "present." The word that really encompasses it for me is "spontaneity" and I like it. It feels like an innocent, child like way of being the way I was doing it.

Sounds about right. And yes, being 'present' is a big part of Daoism.

If you're familiar with Zen, Zen is a fusion of buddhism and Daoism, so it has a lot of principles in common, too.

Originally Posted by shnu

3. I explain wuwei as purpose-emptied action, where the intention does not go beyond the action, and yes, it is about being in the present.

That's true too. IMO, there's very little that sums it up as well as "be like water" - act without purpose, but in natural accordance with your environment.

I love the parable where someone has left an angry goat tied up in the middle of the village's main street. The villagers are standing around, fretting about the problem. "Look, there's the Zen master, he'll know what to do. The Zen master sees the problem, and goes down a side street to avoid the goat.

Exactly what water would do: just naturally flow around the obstacle without fuss - and he'll get where he's going a lot faster than the villagers.

Originally Posted by shnu

4. Many new-agey types like to make out that daoism is a do-good religion, and do so generally with some pretty tendentious reinterpretation of the Daoist classics. There are some injunctions in Daoist religion against doing evil, and talk of retribution in the afterlife for evildoers, but there is precious little encouragement that I can find to do good.

Behold my .sig. The Dao De Jing (rightly, IMO) sees Good and Evil as artificial man-imposed interpretations. It's about doing what's appropriate based on the situation, not on some arbitrary moral code.

Originally Posted by shnu

The Daodejing (Wade Giles: Tao te ching) does not look to me like a manual for building strong, consistent outflows.

The Dao De Jing does not tell you what to do. It tells you how to get to the point where you consistently know what to do. A much more effective approach, IMO.

Originally Posted by shnu

5. Daoist religion: the daoist classics provide very little support for prevalent daoist religious practice. Daoist religious practice is generally animist, with propitiation of nature spirits and ancestor worship, and a concept of the afterlife that looks to me as if it is borrowed from Confucianism, complete with being held to account by a panel of judges and a series of hells tailored for different ways one might mislead one's life. Daoist funerals gives a good overview of daoist customs here.

Yup. I'm talking about "philosophical Daoism" as based on the Dao De Jing and Chuang Tze.

Originally Posted by Jamie

Just to say, if you 'get' Daoism, then it's not Daoism. It refers, or points to, an aspect of yourself that is previous to (more profound than) thought forms and mental concepts. It's not something you can grasp.

Heh, good point. It is something you can be and do, though.

Originally Posted by Jamie

I would say there is a big difference between Daoism and light working...

Absolutely, that was my original point in the other thread - "Lightworking' and 'Darkworking' aren't the only valid polarities. Daoism is a third alternative option and, IMO, there are a lot more.

Originally Posted by Jamie

With Daoism, there is an inherent order, or way; of the universe. All living things are endowed with this intrinsic intelligence, to follow the way of nature. When you try to be good, you are coming from a place of ego, just as much as you would be if you were trying to be selfish or evil. So you inhibit the ability of this intrinsic intelligence, to work through you; because your own ego is in the way.
I believe, in Daoism, emtiness is the greatest virtue, and morals are considered a mere contrivance? It's letting go of ego, moralising, contrivance, and allowing what is there, that remains when all falseness is gone, to come forth.

You just explained it so much better than me. Thanks.

[shnu]

Thanks, Keith, for the parable of the angry goat. Perhaps it didn't make my day, but it certainly made my minute

My remarks about Daoist religion seem a bit harsh in retrospect. The religion predates the classics, and I have the idea (not supported by any historian I have so far read), that the classics came about as a defence of the religion from the rise of Confucianism. If I agree with Keith that the classics transcend their origins, I still think it is worth studying Daoist religion to better appreciate the Daoist classics. The error of the new-agey types I think lies in trying to transplant their uninformed occidental intuitions directly onto Laozi.

[ssnickerer]

Hey guys, I'm new here. Been a lifelong Daoist. A better translation for 無為 ("wu-wei") is "without intention." so 為無為 ("wei wu wei") would be "action without intention." 為 is a really tricky word in classical Chinese.

By the way, Daoism in its purest form isn't a religion. It's not even a philosophy! Like someone said, it's something you can't ever even truly put your hands on. It isn't anything but Dao.

I actually just started my own Dao-based website if any of you are interested - Infinite Zero. It's a place to not only discuss Daoism itself, but also how it relates to religions, science, a spiritual lifestyle, as well as cultivation and self-improvement. Also a place to discuss the hardcore philosophy of Daoism.

I'm also beginning to assemble my own translation of the Dao De Jing, which you can find in the i0 library. Haven't yet been able to find a translation to my complete liking, since they all give it a quacky poetic twist or are written in broken English. (Most non-broken English translations are written by people who don't truly understand classical Chinese, and most broken English translations use words with awful connotations.) Zhuang Zi will be my next project, but ATM I have no idea when my DDJ translation is even going to finish.

I also have a discussion board on there, which had a burst of activity the past winter, but has since silenced down. Would love anyone to join and start it back up! There are also some really excellent threads there to check out.

I hope we can learn much from one another.

[Jamie]

Hi ssnickerer, and welcome to Steves' forum!

Have you come across Derek Lins' Daoist website ... and forum dedicated to discussion of Dao principles and applications for real life etc. May be or interest to yourself, and also to anyone else here with an interest in Daoism.

There linky is: Tea House 2.0 :: Index

Kind regards,
Jamie.

[ssnickerer]

I went to register at Tea House, but it told me I needed to be activated by the administrator - it's been a couple of days now, and I still haven't been activated! :-\