Church of Oprah Exposed: Your thoughts?

[Jamie]

@Maguru

For the sake of clarity; are you willing to state, which Eckhart Tolle materials you have actually read or listened to?

[Maguru]

The way you perceive Tolle's usage of 'awakening' differs from others perceptions on this forum.

Why does anyone need to 'awaken' to be in the present moment? It doesn't make sense. It might need you to stop your mind yabbering away but why call it 'awaken'? Don't you mean 'become aware' of self in the present moment?

The two are not the same and they are not difficult to distinguish.

Another perception given for 'awakening' was to find/connect to a deeper intelligence beyond the ego etc. Is it a case of accepting that we have differing perceptions of Tolle's teaching?

Originally Posted by Angela

Again, this is where I get the idea that you have still not read the book. "Awakening," the way Tolle uses the word in A New Earth, refers to being present in the moment -- that's what he calls the primary life purpose of humans. You are right, it is his belief, and maybe Oprah buys into that, but neither of them have ever announced that you must believe anything they say is true. In fact, Tolle has specifically instructed people NOT to buy blindly into anything he says.

And perhaps Oprah also has as secondary life's purpose -- something about making a difference in the world, but where do you get the idea that an individual's declaring her purpose in life is brainwashing? That's the idea I find so funny. That someone who is committed to making a positive difference in the world and has demonstrated that commitment repeatedly and dramatically -- would be "controlling the masses." "Inspiring" the masses, maybe -- but controlling?



Well, thank you for the invitation! What do you see me being, that has you so bugged? You seem to be getting pretty reactive about what I'm saying. Why is that? What are you seeing that I'm not seeing?

HINT : Presumptuous maybe?

[Angela]

Who is talking about an EVIL power besides you? I have never suggested anything evil about Oprah. It's a ridiculous suggestion. Where is your mind? ha ha ha ha

It's true, you have never used the word "evil" about Oprah -- although you did have all this to say about her:

"bullsh*t Oprah"
"dangerous"
"talks a load of ****"
"Many are fooled by the outside persona, Oprah is one of the foolers."
"They (Tolle and Winfrey) push my buttons because I have had people all my life thinking they know what's best for me, expecting me to be grateful.."
"I am attempting to bring awareness of a bigger picture that contains consequences from good deeds that are not good for some and even terrible for others."
"Oprah has held herself up as a fine example but is not seeing the full consequences of her actions and neither are her followers."
"Divine purpose my ass"
"Oprah is creating a load of mini-me's, instead of the mini parents their parents intended."
"You only see one side of Oprah because she reflects your hearts. I see the negative side for the same reason."
"I know this doesn't sound good because it isn't. She spends more on her eyebrows per week than I have to live on for a year and I am one of the lucky ones. "
"She may not be fooling you but she is fooling herself. I call bullshit, oprah! She's helping herself more than she is helping anyone else."
"The way she has to control. The way she feeds on being adored. The look on her face when she speaks of her true calling. The people pleaser in her. The power she has to make you or break you. The power she wielded in the way she whipped up a 'lynch mob' mentality to catch the perpetrators. "
"She believes she has found her true calling and she needs everyone else to see it too, then she will be crowned "Earth Mother""

....but you're right, you never specifically complained that she was "evil."

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Maguru

The way you perceive Tolle's usage of 'awakening' differs from others perceptions on this forum.

Why does anyone need to 'awaken' to be in the present moment? It doesn't make sense. It might need you to stop your mind yabbering away but why call it 'awaken'? Don't you mean 'become aware' of self in the present moment?

The two are not the same and they are not difficult to distinguish.

Another perception given for 'awakening' was to find/connect to a deeper intelligence beyond the ego etc. Is it a case of accepting that we have differing perceptions of Tolle's teaching?

Tolle is very specific and unambivalent about humanity's life purpose:

From A New Earth, by Eckhart Tolle:

Your inner purpose in life is to awaken. It is as simple as that.

"Awakening is a shift in consciousness in which thinking and awareness separate" -- a shift described throughout Tolle's books as "being present in the moment" or "being in the now."

Nothing is going to make us free because only the present moment can make us free. That realization is the awakening. Awakening as a future event has no meaning because awakening is the realization of Presence.

"Why does anyone need to awaken to be in the present moment"? the answer to your question is answered throughout The Power of Now and A New Earth. That's exactly what is thoroughly described in the books. And to be clear -- no one "needs" to.

Presumption or analysis, what you have said about Tolle, especially in this post alone, gives me the very strong impression that you have either not read his books or that you skipped over or misunderstood his principles. I may be wrong about that, but your defensive refusal to answer -- what's that all about?

You don't have to read the books. It's just not likely that we'll be able to discuss the contents of the books with any insight if you don't read them.

[yossarian]

Maguru, it doesn't take a genius to see you haven't read the books or watched the videos.

If you had, you wouldn't be saying all the inaccurate stuff you're saying. It's fine to criticize a teaching, but first you need to be familiar with the teaching.

It's extremely obvious that you aren't familiar with Tolle's work. You can't hide behind plausible deniability. You keep playing this game like we don't have the right to point out that you haven't read the books. Hehe.

"I'm sick of all these assumptions about me!"

Sorry, not buying it. These aren't assumptions. These are deductions. You have made it very very evident that you don't know the first thing about Tolle's work.

There is nothing wrong with that, you don't have to read it, but no one can take your criticisms seriously when you don't actually address the points that Tolle makes.

You are making what's called a Strawman Argument - you aren't actually attacking Tolle, you are just attacking a Strawman that you built and called Tolle.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position). A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

I really can't make it any clearer.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Maguru

How do you know I haven't read the books? I don't believe we have met. Now, could it be you have been listening to heresay? tut tut. That isn't making your own decisions.

What if I were to tell you I have read them? Never once have I said I haven't. What reason would you give then for my asking the questions?

Other posters have noticed that you havent read them,and i agree...you explained what "awakening" means to you and thats nothing like what we're talking about in this thread. If you did read the books,then you would understand what we are saying. You cant act like you know something when you dont,people can see right through that.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Maguru

The way you perceive Tolle's usage of 'awakening' differs from others perceptions on this forum.

Why does anyone need to 'awaken' to be in the present moment? It doesn't make sense. It might need you to stop your mind yabbering away but why call it 'awaken'? Don't you mean 'become aware' of self in the present moment?

Awakening means to become aware,to become alert,to wake up...its all the same thing! And it would make sense if you had read the book LOL sorry but you would know this if you had read it!

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Angela

It's true, you have never used the word "evil" about Oprah -- although you did have all this to say about her:

"bullsh*t Oprah"
"dangerous"
"talks a load of ****"
"Many are fooled by the outside persona, Oprah is one of the foolers."
"They (Tolle and Winfrey) push my buttons because I have had people all my life thinking they know what's best for me, expecting me to be grateful.."
"I am attempting to bring awareness of a bigger picture that contains consequences from good deeds that are not good for some and even terrible for others."
"Oprah has held herself up as a fine example but is not seeing the full consequences of her actions and neither are her followers."
"Divine purpose my ass"
"Oprah is creating a load of mini-me's, instead of the mini parents their parents intended."
"You only see one side of Oprah because she reflects your hearts. I see the negative side for the same reason."
"I know this doesn't sound good because it isn't. She spends more on her eyebrows per week than I have to live on for a year and I am one of the lucky ones. "
"She may not be fooling you but she is fooling herself. I call bullshit, oprah! She's helping herself more than she is helping anyone else."
"The way she has to control. The way she feeds on being adored. The look on her face when she speaks of her true calling. The people pleaser in her. The power she has to make you or break you. The power she wielded in the way she whipped up a 'lynch mob' mentality to catch the perpetrators. "
"She believes she has found her true calling and she needs everyone else to see it too, then she will be crowned "Earth Mother""

....but you're right, you never specifically complained that she was "evil."

Most Americans fail to think for themselves. Instead, they sit on their fat ass and watch tv and wait for whatever celebrity to tell them what to think. It kind of reminds me of some 'archaic' religion that people like to beat up on around here, where people wait for God to come along and save them from themselves.

Occasionally, that celebrity throws the public a bone... something that is authentic and useful. But then some other trend comes along and that little gem gets buried beneath the rest of the consumer garbage. Because the real purpose of life for you, according to this society (Oprah included) is to consume.

Tolle is Zen with the legs cut off. It's wonderful that this information gets presented to a wider audience than just those who are interested in Eastern philosophy. The downside is that it creates people who think they understand something just because they read a book, went on the internet or watched their favorite tv show. They are just into it because it's popular. Popularity may be the most insidious, moronic method to determine the value of something.

The real shift in consciousness is when we look within for what we should do and not to something else. That's not to say that someone selling something is automatically a schiester or that all spiritual teachers are invalid: what I am saying is that you can not discern the difference without inner experience. The best teachers point you to that experience. What practices does Tolle offer to do that? Or do we just hope to be spontaneously enlightened? What do we do when Tolle is gone? Start a religion around his books?

When you asked, "Have you actually read Tolle's books?" I immediately thought of some fundy Christian, "Have you actually read the Bible?"

In with the new boss, same as the old boss.

[yossarian]

What a strange thread this is.

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

What I am saying is that you can not discern the difference without inner experience. The best teachers point you to that experience. What practices does Tolle offer to do that?

100% of Tolle's books are entirely designed to teach a person to look inward. He teaches countless techniques, the primary one being sensing the inner body using the exact same techniques you'll learn at Buddhist meditation centers.

Tolle's teaching is not Zen with the legs cut off, it is the essence of Zen with nothing excluded. It it Zen from a hundred different angles, so that hopefully the reader will understand at least one of the angles.

Popularity is not a measure of truth; neither is it a measure of falsehood.

The incredible irony of this thread is that Spirit has seen it fitting for they who condemn Tolle to in the next sentence spew his exact teaching. Amazing!

The lesson today is not about Zen, the lesson is about the haste with which the learned shun the popular simply for being popular.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

When you asked, "Have you actually read Tolle's books?" I immediately thought of some fundy Christian, "Have you actually read the Bible?"

Well, I think you underestimate the American people, but that's beside the point.

My point of contention has nothing to do with the validity of value of Tolle's or anyone else's work. It's with people who feel called to blare their judgements about an author's work without actually having read it.

I would feel the same way about someone who criticized the bible as "dangerous" without having read it, and I would even take issue with someone who criticized a Kenny G album without ever having listened to it.

I have no problem with anyone criticizing the work of an author I admire. But I pooh-pooh their opinion if they can't be bothered to even read that work before they make their pronouncements of the author's inherent "danger."

[jawillie]

Originally Posted by yossarian

The lesson today is not about Zen, the lesson is about the haste with which the learned shun the popular simply for being popular.

Exactly.


I also find it sad to throw such a blanket statement over ALL AMERICANS. That's a little harsh. Is THAT zen-like?

I am not proud of my reaction to this thread. I feel frustrated that something so beautiful and simple is turning into some "thing"... but that is always what happens when people get involved.

This is why I always stay away from "organized" anything.

I will just live in my own little world of bliss here and everyone can think of me what they may.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Maguru, it doesn't take a genius to see you haven't read the books or watched the videos.

If you had, you wouldn't be saying all the inaccurate stuff you're saying. It's fine to criticize a teaching, but first you need to be familiar with the teaching.

It's extremely obvious that you aren't familiar with Tolle's work. You can't hide behind plausible deniability. You keep playing this game like we don't have the right to point out that you haven't read the books. Hehe.

"I'm sick of all these assumptions about me!"

Sorry, not buying it. These aren't assumptions. These are deductions. You have made it very very evident that you don't know the first thing about Tolle's work.

There is nothing wrong with that, you don't have to read it, but no one can take your criticisms seriously when you don't actually address the points that Tolle makes.

You are making what's called a Strawman Argument - you aren't actually attacking Tolle, you are just attacking a Strawman that you built and called Tolle.



I really can't make it any clearer.

It is obvious to me that you believe you are correct in your deductions, which haven't been presented. I wouldn't dream of attacking or disputing your beliefs. That's not my game

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

Most Americans fail to think for themselves. Instead, they sit on their fat ass and watch tv and wait for whatever celebrity to tell them what to think. It kind of reminds me of some 'archaic' religion that people like to beat up on around here, where people wait for God to come along and save them from themselves.

Occasionally, that celebrity throws the public a bone... something that is authentic and useful. But then some other trend comes along and that little gem gets buried beneath the rest of the consumer garbage. Because the real purpose of life for you, according to this society (Oprah included) is to consume.

Tolle is Zen with the legs cut off. It's wonderful that this information gets presented to a wider audience than just those who are interested in Eastern philosophy. The downside is that it creates people who think they understand something just because they read a book, went on the internet or watched their favorite tv show. They are just into it because it's popular. Popularity may be the most insidious, moronic method to determine the value of something.

The real shift in consciousness is when we look within for what we should do and not to something else. That's not to say that someone selling something is automatically a schiester or that all spiritual teachers are invalid: what I am saying is that you can not discern the difference without inner experience. The best teachers point you to that experience. What practices does Tolle offer to do that? Or do we just hope to be spontaneously enlightened? What do we do when Tolle is gone? Start a religion around his books?

When you asked, "Have you actually read Tolle's books?" I immediately thought of some fundy Christian, "Have you actually read the Bible?"

In with the new boss, same as the old boss.

Popularity may be the most insidious, moronic method to determine the value of something.

This statement may be the most important one made in this thread. Thankyou.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Tolle is widely recognized because the techniques he presents have been found to be immensely useful by many people. He isn't pushing any kind of belief system whatsoever...

I like Tolle a great deal and have benefited from his teaching. But I don't think it's true that he's not pushing any kind of belief system. True, he's not pushing one by name. But at the very least, he's pushing his own belief system. In truth, he's pushing a westernized / streamlined version of Buddhism. He's not naming or labeling his beliefs, and he's not defending them as a dogma, but it's a belief system nonetheless. That's inherent in being a teacher.

I don't see this as some kind of creeping Evil. There is nothing new under the sun. Tolle has just found a fresh way to present old teachings. That's what good teachers do. The other thing they do is let people make up their own minds. He's very respectful of each person's responsibility and free will.

--Bob

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes, if it is your choice to be brainwashed into believing you have a life purpose, but brainwashing doesn't involve choice, does it?

I don't buy that I have a destiny or life purpose either, but why do you believe that if I did, the only way to come by that belief is via brainwashing?

How do you know that I haven't been brainwashed into thinking that my life doesn't have a purpose?

Why is it so threatening to you that millions of people freely choose to believe they have a life purpose, or that there is a higher power, or whatever?

Look, I agree that people don't examine their beliefs enough and often can't rationally defend them. I agree that when a sufficient number of people accept something as fact without evidence they then start discussing that thing as if it were proven. But I don't get upset about it. I just believe what I believe and let people be.

Your need to rail against it suggests that you are going to encounter this until it drives you batsh_t. I suggest you learn to accept other's beliefs. It's a more peaceful way to go, in my experience.

--Bob

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

Tolle is Zen with the legs cut off. It's wonderful that this information gets presented to a wider audience than just those who are interested in Eastern philosophy. The downside is that it creates people who think they understand something just because they read a book, went on the internet or watched their favorite tv show. They are just into it because it's popular. Popularity may be the most insidious, moronic method to determine the value of something.

I suspect that Tolle may ultimately regret allowing Oprah to "puff" him, for just the reason you point out -- it will swell the ranks with people who think they get it and don't.

Having spiritual teaching presented by a media circus really makes me cringe. It's one of those calculated risks that will seem either brilliant or Stoopid in hindsight. I wish him the best.

--Bob

[jawillie]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I suspect that Tolle may ultimately regret allowing Oprah to "puff" him, for just the reason you point out -- it will swell the ranks with people who think they get it and don't.

--Bob

Exactly. Thank you for your posts. Bob.



I guess my question for people is this: WHEN do you allow yourself to "trust?" Ever? Do you even trust your OWN experiences?

Do you trust me when I say that I have experienced a shift in my awareness?

You probably don't trust that unless you have also felt that.

If you haven't experienced it, if you haven't experienced that moment that brings you to tears as you sit in the most perfect world for a couple seconds, then you don't trust that such an experience can exist.

You just think I am "following Oprah." And, I guess that is okay. I have to learn to take the bashing, I guess.

Would you trust me if I told you I had such a moment long before I heard about Tolle and long before I heard Oprah was teaming up with him?

You probably wouldn't, because everyone is evil and just into "brainwashing" others.

Do you not see that what you see in the world is a REFLECTION OF YOURSELF???

I guess I question why you want to "look for the bad?" Does that make you happy? I used to do that and I know parts of me (ego and painbody) still do today, but I am learning when it is happening, at least). Would you trust me if I told you life is a beautiful place if you start looking for the beauty?

Probably not.

That's okay.

I don't need you to experience what I am experiencing.

It's NOT about "belief"........... it's about EXPERIENCING.

You can pretend you get what Tolle, Buddha, Jesus, and countless other teachers are talking about, but unless you CHANGE YOUR THINKING and experience that SHIFT OF AWARENESS, it will not be genuine.


It's about EXPERIENCING, NOT BELIEVING.

Truly.

Do you trust that?

It's okay if you don't.

P.S. If someone feels the need to rip my post apart to add their anger to it, that is fine. You are welcome to discredit everything I just said.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

Other posters have noticed that you havent read them,and i agree...you explained what "awakening" means to you and thats nothing like what we're talking about in this thread. If you did read the books,then you would understand what we are saying. You cant act like you know something when you dont,people can see right through that.

No! Yourself and other posters have assumed I had not read them. It was not noticed that I had.

Quote from a previous thread

MAGURU : "I wasn't a fan of "The power of now" and I'm not a fan of the idea of finding this divine purpose oprah knows she has personally found."

This was some time ago and I realized I was going round in circles. A bit of de ja vu. Different day, same ****. You know what I mean? Don't you get bored? Perhaps I am your entertainment as you are for me. No worries!