Does enlightenment really exist?

[Rosie]

Does enlightenment really exist?

People say that enlightenment is when you've "transcended desire and suffering." However, I may become enlightened, but then return to my previous unelightened self years later. Once you've achieved enlightenment, there's no guarantee that you will remain in that state forever, so in a sense you haven't transcended it.

Suffering, and desire are two essential parts of human life, so I think it would be better to experience those emotions in moderation, as opposed to eliminating them all together.


Enlightenment is a destination, but life is a journey. I think that elightenment is made up state, and no one ever truly achieves it.

What do you think?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Rosie

Enlightenment is a destination

That's not how I see it. Enlightenment, to me, means: to generate the light of awareness. To shine light in the darkness, to practice boldly being present to what's real, diligently acknowledging and accepting. To live like a dog! The ultimate enlightened being, Fido.

It's not a someday, maybe kind of thing, enlightenment. It is here, now, a way of being -- not something to strive towards. Why wait?

[GoingPrimal]

Fido, a good enlightened role model...

Tho my favorite is the young child with big, wondrous eyes.

[Dharma]

Consider this -
Enlightenment is not a destination, it is who you are now. The experience of "life" is you pretending you're not enlightened and seeing the manifestation of that.

The ego-self will maintain the illusion of this by telling you you're not enough yet, you're not complete, rather than you are and over laying that sense of self with what you are not.

[ShiningLight]

Considering how the idea of "enlightenment" is to transcend thoughts, but from the very act of thinking about it, you are using your thoughts - how does this make sense?

In order to function in this world (independent of whether or not reality is an illusion) requires a person to use his/her thought process.

Now whether or not achieving this enlightened state is possible - I think anything is possible. I just don't think that a person who is enlightened will really care about anything that in this physical reality - since the idea is to transcend it.

[Anagogy]

In my opinion, no one in this world is enlightened in an absolute sense. In a relative sense, yes, there are many who are very very aware. I see "absolute enlightenment" as a state free of all illusions, and when you get there, this reality would no longer even appear to exist anymore. I see this world as the outer edges of a deeper reality. A 1 dimensional line can contain an infinity of 0 dimensional points inside it, a 2 dimensional plane can contain an infinity of 1 dimensional lines, a 3 dimensional plane can contain an infinity of 2 dimensional planes, and a 4 dimensional plane can contain an infinity of 3 dimensional planes. You can take the analogy as far as your mind will allow you. Each progressive plane spatially encompasses the type of reality before it.

Enlightenment would contain all such realities. But a 2 dimensional plane would be a very very simple reality as compared to the complexity of a higher spatial dimension such as 3rd or 4th.

All such dimensions exist in consciousness, and our lack of ability to understand these "higher" orders of reality is what limits our ability to experience them. This is why learning is so important to our spiritual evolution.

The only thing limiting us from going to any point in reality is our fears, beliefs, desires, and intent. The desire/intent for enlightenment starts attracting those experiences necessary for us to understand the higher orders of reality. But even then, we have to learn from those experiences for it to get us anywhere.

So yes, I think enlightenment exists in the context given.

edit: I also wanted to add that we all reach enlightenment at the same "time". Once you transcend all boundaries, you step outside the temporal barrier and at some point all reach it, so you go to that point and everyone is there with you.

[Erock]

Originally Posted by GoingPrimal

Fido, a good enlightened role model...

Tho my favorite is the young child with big, wondrous eyes.

Haha I saw a little baby today and was thinking the exact same thing. Totally in the moment, no mental chatter (don't know language yet), completely present and aware. And those eyes... man you can tell babies are so much more aware then the rest of us.

Erock

[Rhythman]

Enlightenment exists......but you wont be there to experience it as there is no personal "I" or "Me" in the enlightened state. When one rejects every form (body, mind, thought) as not you, the person dissolves and you are once again the totality.

Rhythman

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Rhythman

Enlightenment exists......but you wont be there to experience it as there is no personal "I" or "Me" in the enlightened state. When one rejects every form (body, mind, thought) as not you, the person dissolves and you are once again the totality.

Rhythman

This is exactly what i'm reading about in this book,Awakening To the Natural State,by John Wheeler. It's an easy idea to understand,but hard to achieve completely. It's basically saying everything you see,hear,feel,and think is just a result of your awareness,it's out of your control,and YOU really dont exist. There is no 'you',there is just awareness. Well how can that change life for you,because you STILL have to deal with life,just cuz you arent really in there and aren't in control of what you see,hear,feel,and think,it doesnt make it easier. So i'm having a hard time reading this book because of that.

[Enlightenment]

Yeah, I do exist! LOL!

[Rhythman]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

This is exactly what i'm reading about in this book,Awakening To the Natural State,by John Wheeler. It's an easy idea to understand,but hard to achieve completely. It's basically saying everything you see,hear,feel,and think is just a result of your awareness,it's out of your control,and YOU really dont exist. There is no 'you',there is just awareness. Well how can that change life for you,because you STILL have to deal with life,just cuz you arent really in there and aren't in control of what you see,hear,feel,and think,it doesnt make it easier. So i'm having a hard time reading this book because of that.

Realizing that you are beyond the mind, it no longer has the power to control "you"....."you" control it. "Having to deal with life" is just a concept created by the mind addicted to past and future. The mind's nature is to create problems. Watch the mind that is having a hard time reading the book and know that it is not you.

Rhythman

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by ShiningLight

Considering how the idea of "enlightenment" is to transcend thoughts, but from the very act of thinking about it, you are using your thoughts - how does this make sense?

There is conceptualizing enlightenment and there is experiencing enlightenment. The experience comes through your individuality.

In order to function in this world (independent of whether or not reality is an illusion) requires a person to use his/her thought process.

Sure but do we have to think as much as we do? And do we all too often think we are our thoughts instead of Being?

Now whether or not achieving this enlightened state is possible - I think anything is possible. I just don't think that a person who is enlightened will really care about anything that in this physical reality - since the idea is to transcend it.

The opposite happens. Life exists in physical reality. Spirit is in all forms. All form are divine and worthy. Being enlightened brings the sense of spirit into form and reverence to the being that exists in form. At least that's my concept of that.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Rhythman

Enlightenment exists......but you wont be there to experience it as there is no personal "I" or "Me" in the enlightened state. When one rejects every form (body, mind, thought) as not you, the person dissolves and you are once again the totality.

Rhythman

Physical reality is an illusion but a very persistent illusion. A mirage exists as an illusion - we see it and it looks like a little water pool. But that doesn't make it go away. We can look for our self and not really find our self because it is an illusion in the way we think. We think we are separate - that is the illusion. Try to find what you think of as your separate self and you will not be able to - we are linked to experience. Our senses are not separate from what they sense - but we think that is the case. There is no seer that is separate from that which is seen. We see a tree - but we can't see a tree without the tree. The tree also can't be seen without us seeing it. We are forever linked this way. The illusion is that we think the tree is there as separate from our experience of it.

We don't poof out of existence, our form continues through it's iterations after we identify with Being. Then we get a paradox of sense of self and Being.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

This is exactly what i'm reading about in this book,Awakening To the Natural State,by John Wheeler. It's an easy idea to understand,but hard to achieve completely. It's basically saying everything you see,hear,feel,and think is just a result of your awareness,it's out of your control,and YOU really dont exist. There is no 'you',there is just awareness. Well how can that change life for you,because you STILL have to deal with life,just cuz you arent really in there and aren't in control of what you see,hear,feel,and think,it doesnt make it easier. So i'm having a hard time reading this book because of that.

Yup, we can conceptualize awareness and that is a function of our defining self that makes a boundary of me and everything else. However that boundary is really an interface for experiencing being aware. The you of awareness comes through the you of sense of self. Life is easier to deal with when one is able to be in tune with awareness of Being - of being connected. We then don't have so many habits to defend since we are allowing awareness to come through us. Most of us are doing that the other way around - thinking we are a little you (the interface between Being and doing) that can insist that awareness be a certain way. But awareness just is - there's no resisting that as much as our egos try to is how much struggle we invite into our lives.

[Plato]

mmmm, good question... I think being in a state of enlightenment can actually be made a habit. In that sense one could be said to be "enlightened" I think but probably not in the absolute Buddha sense... I'm skeptical about that, but I don't want to rule it out.

Originally Posted by Rhythman

Enlightenment exists......but you wont be there to experience it as there is no personal "I" or "Me" in the enlightened state. When one rejects every form (body, mind, thought) as not you, the person dissolves and you are once again the totality.

Rhythman

So once fully enlightened, forever enlightened. I like that concept.

[ShiningLight]

There is conceptualizing enlightenment and there is experiencing enlightenment. The experience comes through your individuality.

As far as I can tell, everyone here is conceptualizing enlightenment.

I've read about the "awareness" concept, it makes alot of sense. But that is just increasing your awareness - or better still, changing how you "think" about awareness. What is awareness if not a concept of thought? These are not states of enlightenment.

If one were to experience enlightenment - would one even feel the need of describing his/her enlightenment to others? Think about that. Would one still care about the "illusions" of this reality? Would one be posting on the steve pavlina forums?

[Plato]

Originally Posted by ShiningLight

As far as I can tell, everyone here is conceptualizing enlightenment.

Wow, you've noticed we're writing about it!

Awareness is a path to the unnameable as far as I understand it. As for how an "enlightened" person would behave... to be honest I think they'd do as they please.

[bellemeadows]

It's basically saying everything you see,hear,feel,and think is just a result of your awareness,it's out of your control,and YOU really dont exist. There is no 'you',there is just awareness. Well how can that change life for you,because you STILL have to deal with life,just cuz you arent really in there and aren't in control of what you see,hear,feel,and think,it doesnt make it easier. So i'm having a hard time reading this book because of that.

I think enlightenment is a different perspective, only.

When you get your 'concepts' of who and what you are, and really become aware without concepts, then you are free to experience yourself as what you are in reality, which is enlightened. That is why I believe the story of Adam and Eve is about eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What would you be without your judgment and opinions, without that knowledge? According to Genesis, you'd still be in paradise. And the bottom line is that until you stop filtering your perception, your awareness through your judgments and opinions, stop wearing those lenses to view your experience, stop listening to those old scripts, you have no idea.

While some say we are all enlightened and some say we are not enlightened, and some say what Buddha became is available, and some say it isn't --- we don't really know. We are still filtering it all through those judgment glasses.

Then there is the fear that you won't be the same if you stop believing you are only a body, that this is good and that is bad. Well that is true; you won't be the same, by definition. As for you not existing; well, if "you" is an avenue of awareness, then perhaps that avenue of awareness never ends. That means, your awareness is eternal, and even if the body you, the personality you is gone, the awareness you is still there.

Oddly, I find that when I have set my intention to not be so attached to my concepts of me, and to spend time letting my concepts of me go, and perhaps indulge less in going, going, going and doing, doing, doing as people tend to do in this worldly experience, I don't seem to lose anything. I still hold down my job, and perhaps even do better at it, because the emotional attachment, and the 'wanting' is not such a driver. My life seems to give me the space to do this investigation, this work, without going to hell in a handbasket. . . . somehow the universe always supports me beautifully. I can't say how it will be for you, because I don't know, but that is how it has been for me. The more I let go of this worldly experience, the more beautifully it shows up for me. As long as I can stay unattached, it is lovely for me.

I believe
* that as long as you are speculating about enlightenment, you aren't experiencing yourself as enlightened.
* that the only thing between you and the experience of enlightenment is the judgment and opinion filter you have placed on your perspective in the here and now.
* that enlightenment is your natural state -- one you experience when that filter is released and no longer needed; so it is inevitable. Also, if time is a dimension like space, then you are already enlightened, just not experiencing it in this time dimension perspective.
* Bottom line: We are all Buddhas, but if we are speculating about that state, we are not experiencing the reality of it.

But hey, every one has beliefs and opinions -- and they don't agree, by definition. If we are eternal beings, which I also believe, why take any of this very seriously. Follow the path that intrigues you, live with compassion, smile at those you meet, stay light-hearted, let your eyes twinkle, have some fun, kick up your heels now and then, help those in need now and then. Enjoy what is, and follow your heart.

Blessings from Belle

[Akashic_Librarian]

I guess we'll never stop asking ourselves this question: What IS Enlightenment, we can postulate, speculate, exaggerate, cogitate, muse and consider for a millenia and be no closer to the answer. Every day, everyone asks themselves; Is this the right thing? Am I doing the right thing? And if you can answer that question in the affirmative, everytime, your either a God or delusional, vice versa with the answer and your depressed.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by ShiningLight

As far as I can tell, everyone here is conceptualizing enlightenment.

I've read about the "awareness" concept, it makes alot of sense. But that is just increasing your awareness - or better still, changing how you "think" about awareness. What is awareness if not a concept of thought? These are not states of enlightenment.

It's more like choosing to be aware or not, or letting the ego run a muck or not. Awareness is our heart and feelings and even senses - as long as we don't think about what we see we are being in awareness.

If one were to experience enlightenment - would one even feel the need of describing his/her enlightenment to others? Think about that. Would one still care about the "illusions" of this reality? Would one be posting on the steve pavlina forums?

Well, didn't Jesus/Buddha want to share his enlightenment? Again, being enlightened creates more caring for forms - because forms are full of spirit. But the illusion is gone in the sense of form being temporary and really just energy moving around. You know the spiritual paths all talk about not causing harm? - and that's more of a statement about how enlightened types act not something that needs to be followed to become.

I wouldn't say I'm enlightened. I suffer plenty. Have habitual responses/behaviors and forget to be aware a lot. But I do have glimpses that draw me into awareness. Peak experiences and oneness feelings that lift the veil on form - but even though I get the feeling I "know" form is illusion - it doesn't go away. It actually becomes more fascinating.

[ShiningLight]

I love everyone's opinions on this forum, you are all a bunch of intelligent people - i can tell.

Thanks for keeping the discussion open and moving forward.

@Bellemeadows - excellent post - well said. Love this quote, def. words to live by:

Follow the path that intrigues you, live with compassion, smile at those you meet, stay light-hearted, let your eyes twinkle, have some fun, kick up your heels now and then, help those in need now and then. Enjoy what is, and follow your heart.

Every day, everyone asks themselves; Is this the right thing? Am I doing the right thing? And if you can answer that question in the affirmative, everytime, your either a God or delusional, vice versa with the answer and your depressed.

That got me laughing, Akashic_Librarian.

Again, being enlightened creates more caring for forms

That's the thing, people almost feel that in order for them to be more caring, they must first become "enlightened." Why can't we be more caring NOW?

Well, didn't Jesus/Buddha want to share his enlightenment?

I don't think they wanted to share their enlightenment. I think they offered their help in response to those who asked - a difference. As far as Buddha is concerned, didn't he oppose any "writings" of his teachings? He didn't want to pass on his knowledge. I'm not too sure about Jesus.

P.s. how do you do quotes that reference the particular author, i.e. "orginally posted by..." ?

[The Cloud]

My perspective is that enlightenment is acknowledgment of the real. Our perceptions are just that: perceptions. Our thoughts are just that: thoughts. Neither are truly real, they are merely interpretations and models of reality. Once you can acknowledge that you cannot know or control reality, you can only be it, then you are enlightened.

[bellemeadows]

My perspective is that enlightenment is acknowledgment of the real. Our perceptions are just that: perceptions. Our thoughts are just that: thoughts. Neither are truly real, they are merely interpretations and models of reality. Once you can acknowledge that you cannot know or control reality, you can only be it, then you are enlightened.

I agree, except for one small detail.

Once you can acknowledge. . . .

To me the thing is, when you create a void, a vacuume, something fills it. If you can truly be in a place where you know that you cannot know or control reality, and you actually let go (creating a vacuume) there is something else that has to happen. That is, you have the experience of reality. To me, that experience is not the same as an intellectual understanding. That is where the magic, the delight of enlightenment is.

It seems to me that people who have that experience are not the same as people who do not have that experience. So intellectually, enlightenment is unattainable IMHO. Yet I believe in it. It is my belief (an opinion, which can never be proven to be true or untrue) that the enlightened are different, fundamentally. Reading I Am That made that really clear to me, how very different.

I believe that to look at life as an enlightened person is as different as crawling is to riding a galloping horse. Very different perspectives.

If you are interested read I Am That. Most intrigueing. The words of someone who was existing as an enlightened being within our lifetime.

If you like crawling, riding a horse may look like ****. That is how enlightenment seems to me. If you like your current perspective, changing it to something you don't know and don't understand may just seem *****y, or really scarey. That is why, typically, only those who've had it tough are even interested. Why give up what you have for something you don't understand, and which from your current perspective seems valueless? Why indeed? Most don't want it in reality; because to ride this particular horse means giving up crawling forever. And all of your friends, your family, they are all crawling, and wouldn't get on that horse if their life depended upon it. Few ever make the leap. But some do.

Then there is the complete fallacy that the enlightened are loved and honored; Ohhhh really. Many have been killed, so that one doesn't wash. If we didn't have freedom of religion today, the Tolle's of this world would be in deep danger. There are still places in this world where those who teach as he does, are in danger of losing their lives. We're lucky, even 100 years ago, people were harsher to those who bucked the religion of the day. Heck they just stopped arresting witches in England in the last century.

But the only people who seem to be joyous all the time, to me, are those who dip their toes in these waters. Up for a swim?

Blessings from Belle,

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by bellemeadows

I agree, except for one small detail.

To be honest, I agree with you on your disagreement

It would be nice if I could communicate what I am trying to say without using words, but being bound by language I had to make due. I've given up trying to write without making references to some egocentric term, because it makes the sentence much more difficult to interpret if there are no nouns performing the verbs.

Lately I've realized that seeking enlightenment is merely a hindrance to attaining it. If you want enlightenment, then there is a you doing the wanting and therefore an ego asserting itself. So I am close to giving up my search for an answer. Unfortunately, without the positively focused ego being active, the negatively focused ego becomes more dominant, necessitating interference from the positive ego to prevent a downward spiral into miserable apathy and depression.

Incidentally, I've realized that I'm not just one big ego, but many many smaller ones constantly contradicting each other vying for dominance. In trying to step outside my ego to observe myself, I find that I simply step from one ego to the next. One may want to not want, one may want to be wanted, one may want to give up the creative in exchange for the destructive. But they all want something.

I don't know how to circumvent this issue, but I suppose if I did there would be no need to. Well, the answer is already all around me, so that's the only place I have to look. Just as long as I'm not committed to finding.

[bellemeadows]

Ohhhhhh, Cloud -- thank you for sharing. Reading your post just made my heart feel warm, and gave me goose-bumps. I agree completely.

So few people are really on this path; I mean genuinely on it. Everything you said resonnates as true for me. So bless you, and thank you sooooooo much for sharing!!!!!

May the road rise to meet you
May the wind be always at your back
The sun shine warm upon your face
The rains fall soft upon your fields
And until we meet again,
May God hold you in the hollow of his hand.

Blessing from Belle,

[bellemeadows]

Lately I've realized that seeking enlightenment is merely a hindrance to attaining it. If you want enlightenment, then there is a you doing the wanting and therefore an ego asserting itself. So I am close to giving up my search for an answer. Unfortunately, without the positively focused ego being active, the negatively focused ego becomes more dominant, necessitating interference from the positive ego to prevent a downward spiral into miserable apathy and depression.

What helped me with this was reading The Disappearance of the Universe and The Song of Prayer.

You cannot fight the ego in any of its forms, and win. Fighting is of the ego, and perpetuates the ego -- so any time you engage the ego, battling for an outcome, you have lost (IMHO). So, to acknowledge our current state is just a dream, and forgive it (because it doesn't exist anyway) and then do some joining with God excercises every day -- well, this has helped me soooooo much. My ego, like any ego, still wants to run things, and be the good ego or the bad ego, or fight, or challenge. . . . and on and on and on.

I'm not sure if the joining with God exercise is in The Disappearance of the Universe or his subsequent book, but it is something you can do in five minutes, and it is very, very helpful. What it is not is trying to engage the ego looking for some kind of outcome.

This helped me a lot. Because those of us who are on this path are in a strange place; we need to be in this world, while we are here, but not of it. Tricky; and from my perspective, just not doable without help.

Most hearty blessings to you, from Belle

[Rhythman]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

To be honest, I agree with you on your disagreement

It would be nice if I could communicate what I am trying to say without using words, but being bound by language I had to make due. I've given up trying to write without making references to some egocentric term, because it makes the sentence much more difficult to interpret if there are no nouns performing the verbs.

Lately I've realized that seeking enlightenment is merely a hindrance to attaining it. If you want enlightenment, then there is a you doing the wanting and therefore an ego asserting itself. So I am close to giving up my search for an answer. Unfortunately, without the positively focused ego being active, the negatively focused ego becomes more dominant, necessitating interference from the positive ego to prevent a downward spiral into miserable apathy and depression.

Incidentally, I've realized that I'm not just one big ego, but many many smaller ones constantly contradicting each other vying for dominance. In trying to step outside my ego to observe myself, I find that I simply step from one ego to the next. One may want to not want, one may want to be wanted, one may want to give up the creative in exchange for the destructive. But they all want something.

I don't know how to circumvent this issue, but I suppose if I did there would be no need to. Well, the answer is already all around me, so that's the only place I have to look. Just as long as I'm not committed to finding.

Cloud....I can relate to your post. I used to get frustrated, trying to control my ego..which is really just the ego fighting with itself. I was relentless in my observation of the ego, watching how it constantly contradicted itself, it's needy nature and so forth. After about one year of constantly watching my mind, the link between the witness of the ego and the ego snapped. There are still ego patterns and negative thoughts that arise, but I no longer identify with them. For myself, observation and determination was/is the key.

Like Bellameadows, I read I Am That and have found Maharaj's teachings very helpful in understanding the mind and what it means to go beyond it.

Rhythman

[Erock]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Lately I've realized that seeking enlightenment is merely a hindrance to attaining it. If you want enlightenment, then there is a you doing the wanting and therefore an ego asserting itself. So I am close to giving up my search for an answer. Unfortunately, without the positively focused ego being active, the negatively focused ego becomes more dominant, necessitating interference from the positive ego to prevent a downward spiral into miserable apathy and depression.

Just wanted to pipe in and say I agree with all you guys completely. Cloud, for your predicament, check out this video of Eckhart Tolle (click here). At about 3:50 he goes into the exact issue of there is nothing you can do versus you have to be consciously seeking enlightenment debate.

Erock

[Groundless]

In short, no.

One does not become what they already are. Everything exists and is perfectly perfect. Get out of your own way and there You are.

There is this moment. There is no seperation.

[bellemeadows]

There is a depiction of the Buddha sleeping, you can sometimes find it in statue form. In, I believe, Afghanastan (sp?), near where the giant Buddha statues were destroyed by the Taliban, there are historical references to a mega-huge sleeping Buddha statue. They believe it is still buried in the region, and archaeologists look for it every year.

I believe the sleeping Buddha is a representation of the nature of each of us. While we are absorbed in our thoughts about the world, we sleep to our true nature. We are all Buddha's, but while we dream of other things, we have no awareness of our real nature.

I rather like that symbolism, and the sleeping Buddha always seems important to me.

Blessings from Belle,