You have two thoughts in conflict, how do you pick a winner?

[NoVA101]

I am having a really hard time presenting this question in a way that everyone can understand. Some people see the problem instantly and start working on a way out of it, some can't see the problem at all and think I am bonkers or something. Here it is:

You have two thoughts in conflict, how do you pick a winner?

Here is an expansion:

You have thought A.
You have thought B.
You choose one of them.
Who or what is the "you" that just chose?

EXAMPLE: "I made myself get up early and exercise this morning". This implies A: I wanted to sleep, B: I wanted to get in shape. Therefore "I" "chose" thought B.

Can you see the problem?

Do you know the solution??

[NoVA101]

Usually I let people mull this over a bit, then present my thinking. But since most people either see the problem instantly or not at all, I'll just post my thoughts and see what you think!!

When I say "you" have thought A or thought B, implicit is that "you" is nothing other than thoughts. You -- an extremely complex pile of old thoughts thinking about these two new thoughts -- and you (thoughts) decide which thought wins. This seems to be an irrational circular logic argument! You are nothing but thoughts thinking about thoughts?? If so, then is there really anyone who is making a decision? Or does the decision just emerge from the pre-programmed thought-machine that is "you"??

Unless there is a way out of that circular logic, that leaves only two options that I can see:

OPTION 1. "You" is something totally distinct from thoughts. I believe this is the only way you could ever say there is the possibility of "free will". Meaning "you" is an entity that is able to stand back, evaluate two conflicting thoughts, and choose one over the other.

Example: "I made myself get up early and exercise this morning". Implies A: I wanted to sleep, B: I wanted to get in shape, therefore the real "I" chose thought B.

Example Rephrase: try to just rephrase this problem....

A: There was a thought "continue sleeping"
B: There was another thought "get in shape".

The real "I" evaluated those two thought options randomly banging around in "the mind" and chose B. Therefore I am not thoughts, and whenever there are two thoughts in the mind that conflict, "I" can and do freely choose one over the other.

Ya right! All human experience leads you to know that this is not true.

But fine, lets plow forward and take this as far as we can. This leads to the requirement of another entity, the "I" that is the controller of thoughts. In other words, you have to make ♥♥♥♥♥ up. "Mainstream" religious people make up a thing called a "soul". Scientologists made up some alien life-form thingey living inside of "you" and controlling your thoughts. Both of these are 100% totally equally as valid -- since they are both completely made up!

This is why in so many spiritual teachings (as opposed to religious) you hear about removing "Delusion". As long as you continue to believe stuff that is made up, you will never actually see reality, you are deluded.

[ Part of the confusion in this example is in the wording: "I wanted to sleep" is a thought in the mind, and since the word "I" is used, that implies "I" am thinking that thought. Then when "I" decide between two thoughts, that implies a *different* "I". ]


OPTION 2. There is no such thing as "you" at all. There are thoughts, there are memories, there is a body, etc., but there is no entity made up of thoughts/body/etc; AND there is no entity distinct from thoughts/ body/etc. Therefore there is no entity -- no "you" -- at all.

This is extremely difficult for people to wrap their mind around. In fact the escape that is used is the logical fallacy called Appeal to Consequences, which is basically when you agree with the argument but don't like the answer, so you reject that answer.

Appeal to consequences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And then they get into the argument that goes something like, "If there is no 'you' or 'me' then there is no free will, therefore there is no responsibility, so therefore I can go rape and pillage! Woo hoo! Anarchy!!" Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't mean it isn't true (Appeal to Consequences fallacy). And just because a person realizes there is no "you" doesn't mean they turn into a uber-criminal -- in fact, exactly the opposite is true. At least that is what has been reported for thousands of years.

This realization is -- as I understand it -- the realization that leads to "Spiritual Enlightenment" or "Liberation" or "Nirvana" or "Moksha" etc, etc. Which then leads to the Oneness with All, Pure Love, Bliss, etc. -- stuff that sounds opposite of "bad".


Am I missing something? Is there anything wrong with my premises or arguments? Is there a third option you can think of?

I am trying to create inescapable boxes, forcing people (myself, mostly) to have to confront reality. So the summary of the inescapable box above is you have to choose: Either 1. make ♥♥♥♥♥ up, or 2. there is no you.

[The Cloud]

Do the one you feel like doing. Usually, when two thoughts are in conflict, it's a conflict between external and internal desires.

I could do X because I want to.
I could do Y because I'm supposed to.

You know what you actually want to do, you just feel you should do something else because of the supposed "benefits" to yourself. If you're not hung up on self improvement, your body and mind really know what they need to do for your own benefit.

When I say want, I don't mean it in the negative way, such as "I don't want to do Y, so I'll do X instead." Just like I don't suggest feeding a compulsion to do things, I also don't suggest feeding apathetic escapism. You know what you really want to do, and whether or not you really need that extra five minutes of sleep. Just listen to yourself.

[NoVA101]

Hmmm... I would invite you to delve into this a bit deeper.

When you say, "you feel like" don't you mean you are just having more thoughts? (and feelings, memories, etc... that is, other mental events)

When you say, "external and internal desires" aren't those desires also more thoughts?

When you say, "You know what you actually want to do", who is the YOU that is actually knowing? When you know something, isn't that just more thoughts?

When you say, "listen to yourself" wouldn't that be your thoughts evaluating your thoughts?

Can you see the irrational circular logic loop you are stuck in??

[Terumoto]

It's just a language problem. Saying that you forced yourself to get up, as if your self was something you were working against doesn't make sense. In reality, you got up and exercised, that's all.

[NoVA101]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

It's just a language problem. Saying that you forced yourself to get up, as if your self was something you were working against doesn't make sense. In reality, you got up and exercised, that's all.

I believe many (most? all?) people fight themselves in this way -- all the time -- whether they realize it or not. We are all constantly faced with nearly infinite options, and we always choose from them. Even when we don't "choose" we have made a choice.

Example: If you went to college, you chose to do that rather than just get a job.

Example: If you chose to have children it is because you (usually) chose to get married, and you chose marriage over being single, and each time you went on a date you chose to do that, with that particular person, and before you met your spouse you chose to go out that night rather than stay in and watch TV, etc, etc, etc.

Example: Often times when you do something at work, you choose to say to yourself, "that is good enough" and then move on to the next bit of work. How do you make the choice? Are you choosing between, "I want to go home" and "I don't care about this job" or "I really want to get a raise so I better do this well" or "I am a perfectionist, that's just the way I am." A perfectionist is a highly desirable employee -- they constantly do a great job. And often perfectionism is a symptom of a psychological disorder, if you will. Such a person is always saying to themselves, "I am not good enough, I must do better, I must be perfect" and of course they never succeed. This is a person who is always making a particular choice. A slacker is simply a person who does a crappy job and says, "that is good enough". HOW does each person make that choice, in each instance?

Example: all humans have the choice to do the following, today, right now, this instant! Buy a bunch of deep woods camping gear. Go to Montana (or whatever). Find the deepest woods. Live the rest of your life there. Did you just make that choice? Why not? Do you see how you are choosing to stay wherever it is you are right now (physical location, job, relationships, etc, etc) every single minute of every day. You don't have to make that choice. You ARE choosing, whether you are aware of it or not.

If you beat yourself up about your choices, then you are unhappy. If you are OK with your choices, you are more happy -- but that doesn't answer the fundamental question: HOW do you make your choices from all the options?

When you have two thoughts in your mind, how do you choose one?? How did you choose to read this, rather than watch TV or read a book or make love???? Should you write a response or not? YOU MUST CHOOSE! You don't have a choice! (actually that is serious!!)

[Maguru]

I believe there is a real, objective you in there and the thoughts are just part of the process of knowing yourself. All thoughts are yours. All choice is you expanding, or not. Most thoughts are connected to emotions, (ie does it feel good or bad?) and made from judgements of previous experience but it is all you. A consciousness that contains the whole. No problem. regards

Originally Posted by NoVA101

I am having a really hard time presenting this question in a way that everyone can understand. Some people see the problem instantly and start working on a way out of it, some can't see the problem at all and think I am bonkers or something. Here it is:

You have two thoughts in conflict, how do you pick a winner?

Here is an expansion:

You have thought A.
You have thought B.
You choose one of them.
Who or what is the "you" that just chose?

EXAMPLE: "I made myself get up early and exercise this morning". This implies A: I wanted to sleep, B: I wanted to get in shape. Therefore "I" "chose" thought B.

Can you see the problem?

Do you know the solution??

[NoVA101]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I believe there is a real, objective you in there......

What, exactly, is that "you"?

Do you KNOW there is something inside of you that is the "real" you? I REALLY want to know. I REALLY want to know if we KNOW there is something there, or are we just hoping? Are we just making stuff up?

Did you ever hear a kid ask, "How do they get those little men inside the radio?"

Isn't that cute! No. Not really. Well, it is OK for a kid. But not for a grown up.

What is the difference a cute kid question, and an adult "believing" something just because it seems as if it should be? At first thought, there should be little men inside the radio, right? At first thought there should be a little "you" inside controlling all the thoughts, making decisions, making moral judgments, etc. How is that different from what a kid believes?

Just because we want to believe something does not make it true. Ever.

Not trying to beat anyone up, just trying to understand. Trying to understand what is REAL, no matter where that leads. No matter what.

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by NoVA101

I believe many (most? all?) people fight themselves in this way -- all the time -- whether they realize it or not. We are all constantly faced with nearly infinite options, and we always choose from them. Even when we don't "choose" we have made a choice.

Example: If you went to college, you chose to do that rather than just get a job.

Example: If you chose to have children it is because you (usually) chose to get married, and you chose marriage over being single, and each time you went on a date you chose to do that, with that particular person, and before you met your spouse you chose to go out that night rather than stay in and watch TV, etc, etc, etc.

Example: Often times when you do something at work, you choose to say to yourself, "that is good enough" and then move on to the next bit of work. How do you make the choice? Are you choosing between, "I want to go home" and "I don't care about this job" or "I really want to get a raise so I better do this well" or "I am a perfectionist, that's just the way I am." A perfectionist is a highly desirable employee -- they constantly do a great job. And often perfectionism is a symptom of a psychological disorder, if you will. Such a person is always saying to themselves, "I am not good enough, I must do better, I must be perfect" and of course they never succeed. This is a person who is always making a particular choice. A slacker is simply a person who does a crappy job and says, "that is good enough". HOW does each person make that choice, in each instance?

Example: all humans have the choice to do the following, today, right now, this instant! Buy a bunch of deep woods camping gear. Go to Montana (or whatever). Find the deepest woods. Live the rest of your life there. Did you just make that choice? Why not? Do you see how you are choosing to stay wherever it is you are right now (physical location, job, relationships, etc, etc) every single minute of every day. You don't have to make that choice. You ARE choosing, whether you are aware of it or not.

If you beat yourself up about your choices, then you are unhappy. If you are OK with your choices, you are more happy -- but that doesn't answer the fundamental question: HOW do you make your choices from all the options?

When you have two thoughts in your mind, how do you choose one?? How did you choose to read this, rather than watch TV or read a book or make love???? Should you write a response or not? YOU MUST CHOOSE! You don't have a choice! (actually that is serious!!)

Yeah, I see what you mean. How is a weird question though... Why do you want to know how?

I just do it. I just make the choices and choose whatever I choose.

This is the same as if I asked you how you beat your heart or move your arm. You have no idea, but you've been doing it for your whole life.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by NoVA101

What, exactly, is that "you"?

Do you KNOW there is something inside of you that is the "real" you? I REALLY want to know. I REALLY want to know if we KNOW there is something there, or are we just hoping? Are we just making stuff up?

Did you ever hear a kid ask, "How do they get those little men inside the radio?"

Isn't that cute! No. Not really. Well, it is OK for a kid. But not for a grown up.

What is the difference a cute kid question, and an adult "believing" something just because it seems as if it should be? At first thought, there should be little men inside the radio, right? At first thought there should be a little "you" inside controlling all the thoughts, making decisions, making moral judgments, etc. How is that different from what a kid believes?

Just because we want to believe something does not make it true. Ever.

Not trying to beat anyone up, just trying to understand. Trying to understand what is REAL, no matter where that leads. No matter what.

You are basically asking if free will exists, correct? If there is something that actually chooses or whether it is an unconscious process?

My experience has been that I am awareness. All things I am aware of are the shape of my consciousness at any given time. Awareness is a container that grows as you put more objects inside it, and shrinks as they are taken out. The ability to choose is a product of awareness. The less awareness, the less choice. We develop preference based on the contrast of experience -- whether experience is desirable or undesirable. You can't choose if you are unaware of the choice, so there is such a thing as choice by default. In such a case, there is an unconscious preference toward what is known or familiar. This is an attempt to reduce chaos.

There are choices derived from the pleasure principle. (want/survival)

There are choices derived from the logical principle. (should/calculation)

There are choices derived from the intuitive principle. (instinct/faith)

Once consciousness has evolved beyond a certain point it has the capacity to consciously choose between two or more options. This includes choices where the pleasure or comfort principle doesn't necessarily decide for "them", such as a moral sense of duty or devotion for example. However, one could argue the preference towards such an inclination to duty or devotion was an unconscious choice in and of itself.

For there to be absolute free will, you would have to have full awareness of all possible choices, along with an equal probability of choosing between any of them. In such a case, any choice would be completely arbitrary. So the more free will you get, the less important you realize it is, ironically enough. Another way of saying it is: as the power of free will increases, the preference to exercise it decreases.

Practically speaking, you can choose to do anything, but your preference for most choices has, in fact, already been derived. But if you look outside the temporal sandbox, you will see that even though the momentum of your choices can be seen based on preferences, the choices were still "yours" because you "chose" the preferences that make up "you". Please understand, I am not arguing for or against free will. Free will is arbitrary without preference, and it is biased because of it.

If you want to "unshackle" fate, you have to gain more awareness. It will happen automatically on the learning cycle. But the more you unshackle it, the more unnecessary choosing between "things" becomes.

[Maguru]

It is difficult to find the real you underneath pre-conditioning and the emotions. Through my personal experiences, I see the real me as the sum total of my life experiences. There is nothing within me that isn't me. I cannot be other than me.

I actually became aware of this real me when I had the thought, "my mind is driving me nuts!" It was probably the first time I observed a thought as seperate to me. It stopped me in my tracks. I thought,"who is this 'I" whose mind is driving them nuts?" I then realized I was not my mind, but it seemed like it had a mind of its own

From there I focussed on my mind as being 'a part of me' and belonging to me, instead of being 'the only part' of me. I began to pay more attention to my mind. I tuned in more frequently and found I was thinking subconsciously most of the time. Thinking of things I had absolutely no need to think about. Repeating the same things day in day out. God I was so bored with myself.

The next part of my process led me to think 'on purpose'. I focused on different things that interested me. I listened to music I had not listened to before. The real me was taking control. The real me is not my spirit or my soul. It is me. I am what I know. I cannot be anything else and I don't wish to be.

I hope this helps a little to accept yourself and allow 'who' you wish to be to emerge.

Originally Posted by NoVA101

What, exactly, is that "you"?

Do you KNOW there is something inside of you that is the "real" you? I REALLY want to know. I REALLY want to know if we KNOW there is something there, or are we just hoping? Are we just making stuff up?

Did you ever hear a kid ask, "How do they get those little men inside the radio?"

Isn't that cute! No. Not really. Well, it is OK for a kid. But not for a grown up.

What is the difference a cute kid question, and an adult "believing" something just because it seems as if it should be? At first thought, there should be little men inside the radio, right? At first thought there should be a little "you" inside controlling all the thoughts, making decisions, making moral judgments, etc. How is that different from what a kid believes?

Just because we want to believe something does not make it true. Ever.

Not trying to beat anyone up, just trying to understand. Trying to understand what is REAL, no matter where that leads. No matter what.

[evrgrn3]

If you know your Core Values and Vision, the answer to your question will come from deep within you and will not be randomized (or so I believe).

First figure out what your Core Values are, and then define each one -- when a problem or question arises, look at your core values and weight your decision against them...you are then living with integrity.

Need help finding your core values...CLICK HERE

[LightWork]

That website is only 50% helpful. My Dad went through an exercise with me where he asked me why I did certain tasks. When we boiled down to it, we derived I do things for fun, achievement, beauty, helpfulness (of the greater good) and ease.

But that was from my own thoughts only - that's a good extensive list!

[NoVA101]

Originally Posted by evrgrn3

If you know your Core Values and Vision, the answer to your question will come from deep within you and will not be randomized (or so I believe).

First figure out what your Core Values are, and then define each one -- when a problem or question arises, look at your core values and weight your decision against them...you are then living with integrity.

Need help finding your core values...CLICK HERE

evrgrn3 - I think there is something else going on here.

Lets say you go ahead and figure out what your Core Values are.

Tell me. Where did THOSE come from?

Where, exactly.

It is very easy to give up on this exercise, but try not to.

Here, let me take a crack at it:

Lets say, for example, one of my values (picking from your list) is Fitness (this relates well to my example at the beginning).

So on the example day above, I had two thoughts in conflict, and I picked one. I chose to get up out of bed and exercise.

Can you see what happens?

The reason I chose that thought is because at some earlier time I had a number of thoughts to choose from, and I chose "I want to be Fit" over "I want another beer" or "I'll just watch TV" or "I'll take a class on Spanish", etc, etc.

Therefore Fitness is important to me, one of my Core Values.

Uh oh. Wait a minute. When I chose between two thoughts, "I want to be Fit" over "I want another beer" HOW DID I CHOOSE?

I had two thoughts in conflict. I chose one over the other. It ended up being one of my core values. How did I choose?

How did I choose one thought over another?

How does anyone EVER choose one thought over another.

I would propose to you that all of your Core Values are the result of you choosing one thought over many options. But I would also propose to you that you and I have no idea how we choose between our numerous thought options.

Again, if you read my second post in this thread, I think I do know where this ultimately leads... if you don't give up on the exercise, which, of course, most of us do!