Something that puzzles me...

[Terumoto]

I don't have anything against Christianity, but do you guys think they actually believe it?

Christianity isn't like Buddhism or Hinduism, where essentially they have nothing to teach; there's a whole lot going on for Christians. Shouldn't they be out in the streets yelling at the top of their lungs, doing everything they can to try and get the word out? Wouldn't that be the sane thing to do, if you had such an important message?

There are people that do that, but the rest of them seem like they don't really believe it. They say they believe it, they pretend to believe it, they feel like they ought to believe it, but in the end, it just looks like they don't.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Well, one way of getting the message out would be to shout from the rooftops, but then you get called insane. I think many people (Christian and otherwise) feel that the best and most effective way to evangelize is to live as Christ (or whatever) would have you live. Then people are drawn in and ask you what your secret is.

Not that all Christians do this, but it's one perspective. With millions of people, there isn't going to be one way I don't think.

[Mato Kinze]

Whoa... Buddhism and Hinduism have nothing to teach?? Dude, how much have you looked into those philosophies? People study those traditions their entire lives and don't get all there is to get.

Don't confuse "teaching" with "prosthelitizing". The former is simply sharing a message or belief that you hold as Truth. The latter is forcing others to accept it as THEIR Truth.

As for running around in the streets trying to ge the word out; as aspiring_to_clarity pointed out, some do but they are usually locked up as psychotics or paranoid delsusionists.

There are whole segments of Christians whose only goal in life is to do exactly what you are talking about.

They're called MISSIONARIES and they've been doing it since the Apostles went their separate ways after Jesus' crucifiction. In fact, Christian Missionaries have been some of the most effective prosthelizers in history. Witness the growth of the religion to its current point.

I'd say that they ARE doing everything they can to "get the word out" and have been for 2,000 years.

[Terumoto]

Yeah, there are those that do spread the word as much as they can, like missionaries. What about the rest, though? The people that go to church on Sundays and forget about religion for the rest of the week?

Not that I'm saying they have to do anything, I'm just saying that because of the nature of Christianity's message, having a half-hearted approach makes it seem like they don't really believe what they say they believe. If that's the case, they might as well stop calling themselves Christian, but they continue to because of guilt or something.

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

Whoa... Buddhism and Hinduism have nothing to teach?? Dude, how much have you looked into those philosophies? People study those traditions their entire lives and don't get all there is to get.

Don't confuse "teaching" with "prosthelitizing". The former is simply sharing a message or belief that you hold as Truth. The latter is forcing others to accept it as THEIR Truth.

Well I suppose they play around like they have "something" to teach, but the essence of that something they are teaching is nothing. Religions like Christianity give you facts and knowledge that you have to believe, but religions like Buddhism are focused on getting rid of misunderstanding instead of gaining knowledge.

If you become enlightened, it's not something you gained that adds onto your knowledge, it's a realization of a fundamental truth that has always been there without you noticing it. That's what I mean when I say they have nothing to teach.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

The people that go to church on Sundays and forget about religion for the rest of the week?

Out of the millions of Christians in the world I am sure many do that. I am sure many people read this site and get great insights and never apply them as well. I don't think it means they don't believe in the truth of it.

I guess I am not sure what you are getting at?

[Mato Kinze]

Responses in line:

Originally Posted by Terumoto

Yeah, there are those that do spread the word as much as they can, like missionaries. What about the rest, though? The people that go to church on Sundays and forget about religion for the rest of the week?

Not that I'm saying they have to do anything, I'm just saying that because of the nature of Christianity's message, having a half-hearted approach makes it seem like they don't really believe what they say they believe. If that's the case, they might as well stop calling themselves Christian, You could say the same of any religion. It's the age-old question of secular versus spiritual. Also, stop confusing religion with spirituality. The two are completely separate from one another.but they continue to because of guilt or something. You're in their minds to determine what their motivations are?

Well I suppose they play around like they have "something" to teach, but the essence of that something they are teaching is nothing. Religions like Christianity give you facts and knowledge that you have to believe, but religions like Buddhism are focused on getting rid of misunderstanding instead of gaining knowledge

If you become enlightened, it's not something you gained that adds onto your knowledge, it's a realization of a fundamental truth that has always been there without you noticing it. That's what I mean when I say they have nothing to teach..We are all born with the inate knowledge of what is Truth and what is not. Even Christians believe that God created us with Universal Knowledge, but in this life we "forget". There is an old axiom that states, "Teaching is simply reminding people of that which they already know but have forgotten or neglected." The concept is not limited to Hindus or Buddhists.

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Out of the millions of Christians in the world I am sure many do that. I am sure many people read this site and get great insights and never apply them as well. I don't think it means they don't believe in the truth of it.

I guess I am not sure what you are getting at?

There are a lot of different types of Christians, I suppose I should have been more specific. I mean the Christians that are Creationists and believe in God as an omnipotent, benevolent, all-knowing being, rather than Christians who take the bible metaphorically or have a similar view of God as Taoists do the Tao or Hindus the Atman.

So I'm saying that that sort of Christian doesn't seem like they really believe what they say and act like they believe. Mato, there is definitely a lot of guilt in Christianity, you don't need to be a mind reader to see it. I was a Christian, my family are Christians, I have friends that are Christian, I've taught Sunday School... It's a very guilt driven religion. Sometimes even the core teachings of it are portrayed in a way that makes people guilty. "Jesus died for YOU, and what have you done for him? You're just a sinner, you'll always be a sinner, but God might forgive you on conditions X, Y and Z."

That was a bit of an exaggeration, lol, but it's like that.

And Mato, I agree that you can say something similar about most religions, and it is the secular vs spiritual argument. I'm just singling out Christianity, because of the nature of their message. In Buddhism, it's not like things are going to get any worse for people if they don't get the message. They're already in Samsara, but for Christians, there's only so much time before death, and when you die you either go to Heaven or Hell. It's a big deal, or it should be anyway.

It's like if you saw a bunch of people on a conveyor belt, slowly moving towards an invisible magic meat grinder where for all eternity they would be conscious, constantly being ground up and pulverized, but most people didn't know about it. Wouldn't you expect the people that did know to be going absolutely nuts?

I didn't mean to limit that concept to Hinduism and Buddhism, but I'm just talking in generalizations. I'm not saying all Christians are incompetent, or that the Bible's teachings aren't valid, or that Buddhists and Hindus are all winners and everybody else fails. It doesn't matter which path you use, because as you said, we are all born with the innate something.

[Ree]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

It's like if you saw a bunch of people on a conveyor belt, slowly moving towards an invisible magic meat grinder where for all eternity they would be conscious, constantly being ground up and pulverized, but most people didn't know about it. Wouldn't you expect the people that did know to be going absolutely nuts?

Thank you for pointing this out. I've often wondered about this myself, particularly when it comes to parents and children, or spouses, or any kind of loving relationship. How could a supposed Christian sit idly by while their loved ones goes to a fiery eternity? How could anyone for that matter??

I gave myself enough nightmares over this very thing! So what do you think, Terumoto? Do you think deep down they don't truly believe? That's pretty much what happened to me and it turned me completely away from the path of Christianity. I couldn't believe that was all there was to my existence!

I think I "outgrew" Christianity. Actually I think lots of folks do, but the fellowship and the tradition are very comforting and they choose to continue to participate on a very superficial level. I experienced quite a lot of angst on giving up those traditions and especially the fellowship, the sense of identification with others.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Ree

Thank you for pointing this out. I've often wondered about this myself, particularly when it comes to parents and children, or spouses, or any kind of loving relationship. How could a supposed Christian sit idly by while their loved ones goes to a fiery eternity? How could anyone for that matter??

Well as a young Christian I was all about trying to convert my loved ones lest they burn in the fiery pits of Hell for eternity, but you can't force people to believe no matter how fervently you do. And you learn eventually that that type of behavior only makes people avoid talking about the issue with that at all and begin to use other tactics, like living by example.

The thing that led me to begin questioning Christianity was the fact that my grandmother, the sweetest most beautiful person in the world, could be sent straight to Hell for just not agreeing with a religion. I tried so hard when I was younger to convert her and was devastated that it never phased her. I began to think I wasn't sure I could believe in a God who would let her suffer for eternity.

[Ree]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

The thing that led me to begin questioning Christianity was the fact that my grandmother, the sweetest most beautiful person in the world, could be sent straight to Hell for just not agreeing with a religion. I tried so hard when I was younger to convert her and was devastated that it never phased her. I began to think I wasn't sure I could believe in a God who would let her suffer for eternity.

Exactly!! So what do you think, AC? Do some folks start having doubts, but still cling to the traditions of Christianity..... and the familiarity, the comfort??

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Well as a young Christian I was all about trying to convert my loved ones lest they burn in the fiery pits of Hell for eternity, but you can't force people to believe no matter how fervently you do. And you learn eventually that that type of behavior only makes people avoid talking about the issue with that at all and begin to use other tactics, like living by example.

The thing that led me to begin questioning Christianity was the fact that my grandmother, the sweetest most beautiful person in the world, could be sent straight to Hell for just not agreeing with a religion. I tried so hard when I was younger to convert her and was devastated that it never phased her. I began to think I wasn't sure I could believe in a God who would let her suffer for eternity.

You know what, if the Christians are right, then I'll be in good company with your Grandma and Mahatma Ghandi.

[Vasilisa]

Most religions have a common ground that is to teach people to get rid of ego and get into the state of awareness, compassion and love to others. Another thing that unfortunately some people use it as a way to gain some profit.
But basically if you read books written by really enlighted people, who didn't care about power or money from any denomination, they are all about - loving your brother, loving everything which lives and breathes on Earth,
stopping your "ego", finding your true self, following your path and etc.

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by Ree

Thank you for pointing this out. I've often wondered about this myself, particularly when it comes to parents and children, or spouses, or any kind of loving relationship. How could a supposed Christian sit idly by while their loved ones goes to a fiery eternity? How could anyone for that matter??

I gave myself enough nightmares over this very thing! So what do you think, Terumoto? Do you think deep down they don't truly believe? That's pretty much what happened to me and it turned me completely away from the path of Christianity. I couldn't believe that was all there was to my existence!

I think I "outgrew" Christianity. Actually I think lots of folks do, but the fellowship and the tradition are very comforting and they choose to continue to participate on a very superficial level. I experienced quite a lot of angst on giving up those traditions and especially the fellowship, the sense of identification with others.

Yeah, I think a lot of them don't actually believe it. Sure, they want to believe it, they wish they could, they think they ought to, but in the end they don't.

I was in that position myself. The focus moves away from the teachings and onto the whole fellowship thing. It's so tense, you just have to play the part, you can't actually question anything.

This sort of thing seems like it's getting more common these days.

[LightWork]

Originally Posted by Ree

Thank you for pointing this out. I've often wondered about this myself, particularly when it comes to parents and children, or spouses, or any kind of loving relationship. How could a supposed Christian sit idly by while their loved ones goes to a fiery eternity? How could anyone for that matter??

I gave myself enough nightmares over this very thing! So what do you think, Terumoto? Do you think deep down they don't truly believe? That's pretty much what happened to me and it turned me completely away from the path of Christianity. I couldn't believe that was all there was to my existence!

I think I "outgrew" Christianity. Actually I think lots of folks do, but the fellowship and the tradition are very comforting and they choose to continue to participate on a very superficial level. I experienced quite a lot of angst on giving up those traditions and especially the fellowship, the sense of identification with others.

This is a very important aspect of my life at the moment. I'm at a University in England and I have 7 very close friends, 4 of whom are Christian and 3 are agnostic. I class myself as 'spiritual'. I'd say my passion (and, in my opinion ability to argue logically and coherently about my beliefs) aggregates to more than the 4 christians, to the point that my other 3 friends are more inclined to believe me alone, despite my inactive participation in any 'clubs' (the Christian Union is very active in this University.)

It shocks me that my friends struggle to answer any simple questions I pose to their belief system. Conversely, I can answer any question given perhaps a little bit of time to think (as it may never have been posed to me before.) However, this may be because the nature of my belief system implies I can 'make up' anything (as my friends put it) compared to having to search God for the answers. In my opinion, they're one and the same I'm not saying I'm right here, just that it's strange that nobody ever comes back to me with an answer.

I used a little annalogy with my best friend - I equated it to living in a house for one's entire life and never leaving this house. You were brought up in this house and it's comfortable in this house. If I ask you to find a piece of particular furniture in this house and you can't find it, you surely must concede that this piece of furniture is not in this house. This piece of furniture is quite essential to the house you live in, so it would make sense to go find it elsewhere. I find Christians, when asked a question, and cannot find the answer, do not leave their house. Why would they? They're comfortable with their family and are scared they won't be let back in if they go searching for this furniture, despite their inner knowledge that this furniture may lie elsewhere.

I find it very saddening that most people of my age (18) are of the religion they are brought up with. I met my first Buddhist the other day, and was genuinely shocked to learn that she was brought up so. It really hit me how important nurture is. I am the only person I know of that has found something he/she believes in themselves. I guess I was moderately helped by my dad - he gave me a book on my first official exam results when i was 16 but told me to only read it if I wanted to. Changed my life. "Conversations With God" by Neale Donald Walsch (not sure if we're allowed to quote authors etc. here, but I'll delete it if not) if anybody hasn't read it: it's a fantastic way to start on spirituality, in my opinion. But that's my experience


I could honestly talk for days on Christianity (I already have from my short time at University), so if anybody has any thoughts I'd love to here them. I dated a Christian for 1 and a half years, who's family were VERY Christian and my best friend in college (highschool) was Christian. Now my best friend here is Christian. It seems I'm attracting what I'm (dis)passionate about

[LightWork]

I guess that was moderately off-topic. My answer to the original post would be that a number of Christians, in my experience, do not like being genuinely quizzed over their religion, because in their experience it never turns out well. Some of the conclusions drawn from the religion do bring on a great deal of doubt from the responding party.

On top of this, I believe it is their job to spread the word of Jesus Christ. This does not mean screaming it. Most Christians will let you know they are a Christian within half a week of knowing them, without fail. Personally, I need to be asked before I speak of my faith, unless it's relevant in conversation. My experience of Christians tells me that Christians will find a way of telling you exactly what their faith is. From then on in, it's technically your job to do the asking and find out about this person. I think this is a fair way to go about it.

However, I agree that if I thought people were going to hell for not believing in Jesus, I would be a bit more vocal about it. If you're a Christian, technically it would benefit your soul to be a form of missionary as your profession. If one truly believes in this consequences, and is a good person, I can't see this person ever relaxing about it. Maybe this is why not everyone is really a missionary of Christianity? Maybe they don't truly believe it?

I, for one, am on the road to becoming a missionary of what I believe. Though it matters not if people don't believe the same thing as me, I would just require they fully enjoy their experience on this planet, as there is none other like it, would you not say?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Ree

Exactly!! So what do you think, AC? Do some folks start having doubts, but still cling to the traditions of Christianity..... and the familiarity, the comfort??

Sure, I think that definitely happens. As for me, I still believe in good ole JC and what he taught. I think it aligns very well with a conscious view of the universe. I think some things he said are not fully understood without looking deeper, like Tolle talks about. He is one of the great "prophets" that has a great deal of wisdom.

As for the rest, I am less inclined to believe it. I feel like a lot of it is tradition created by man.

However, I do know many, many people who believe the Word is straight from the mouth of God and everything that goes along with it. Most of the Christians I know seem very invested in their faith. I do also know some who kind of vaguely believe in God and pray and go to church, but don't live with Christ as their focus. And again, I know some who are probably afraid not to believe it.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

You know what, if the Christians are right, then I'll be in good company with your Grandma and Mahatma Ghandi.

We'll have a party.

[Ree]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Sure, I think that definitely happens. As for me, I still believe in good ole JC and what he taught. I think it aligns very well with a conscious view of the universe. I think some things he said are not fully understood without looking deeper, like Tolle talks about. He is one of the great "prophets" that has a great deal of wisdom.

As for the rest, I am less inclined to believe it. I feel like a lot of it is tradition created by man.

I believe in JC as well and in his teachings.

Have you read the Gnostic Gospels? They were conveniently left out of the Bible. Interesting that the Church saw fit to leave them out, when by their very teachings they tell us that the path to being Christ-like is an inner path, and not necessarily a path we have to take by following an organized, dogmatic religion.

I guess that's a very scary idea for the Church, that each should be able to find his or her own way

[Ree]

Originally Posted by LightWork

I guess I was moderately helped by my dad - he gave me a book on my first official exam results when i was 16 but told me to only read it if I wanted to. Changed my life. "Conversations With God" by Neale Donald Walsch (not sure if we're allowed to quote authors etc. here, but I'll delete it if not) if anybody hasn't read it: it's a fantastic way to start on spirituality, in my opinion. But that's my experience

You are very lucky to have a dad with an open mind... I think my spiritual journey would have been much easier if I hadn't first had to shed years of the oppression and fear-mongering of the particular form of Christianity my parents had chosen.

But then maybe I wouldn't be as happy to be where I am today!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Ree

Have you read the Gnostic Gospels? They were conveniently left out of the Bible. Interesting that the Church saw fit to leave them out, when by their very teachings they tell us that the path to being Christ-like is an inner path, and not necessarily a path we have to take by following an organized, dogmatic religion.

I have not read them, but my brother has and recommended me to. He was way ahead of me in his questioning. I intend to read that along with a lot else. I have really not delved any deeper than surface questioning. But I am at a point where I would like to refine my thoughts about the subject and get more information.

Thanks for the reminder!