God - Why does it take away responsibility?

[Selmanito]

I dont get it. Why do people refer to this of believing in god actually limits you and takes away your responsibility?

I mean sure, some belief systems (which have a "god") do limit a person. But is it not because follows are human? And that they have not understood the messege correctly in the first place?

I do believe in God, and in my religion, im told to question Gods messege continously. Difference being (from most people) is that you question it with an intention of being fully open minded, which means you have to go through some painful thinking before ever reaching a conclusion (can take days to years for me sometimes!).


Cant the "messege" of god have been misunderstood and given the wrong names, and we as humans have "added" the extra limiting factors?

I am trying not to be forcing myself onto a certain belief. But im just wondering what other people think.

PS: ok i just read what i wrote again, and im still not satisfied what i want to extactly say. Im not saying it too clearly at all. Im gonna hope someone see's my point here.

[Jennihul]

I see your point, kind of.

One of the most disturbing bumperstickers which I see a lot around here is:

Let Go..Let God

Meaning give up and allow God to do it for you.


Gag. My God would send me nothingness if I gave nothing to my life and expected It to solve all my problems. Some would say it means to trust in God's plan. The God they speak of and trust in is usually the imaginary old bearded man, like a kindly grandfather sitting on a heavenly throne that rewards their goodness and punishes their weakness. Judges and listens to their prayers and only the most pious and righteous get their wishes. Not the real God.

Our living of our lives and making choices and learning lessons and having experiences, good and bad, is what human life is all about. So yes, we humans have added limiting factors that have nothing to do with eternal spirit and universal love that is the real God.

Jennifer

[sheffy4]

I can see how that bumper sticker might irritate you, but I think I can put a positive spin on it.
Many people on these forums emphasize letting go, as in letting go your control of everything around you. The more you try to control the external world, the more frustrated you will get, but if you just "let go" of the fear and control, then the universe will bring you what you want.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by sheffy4

Many people on these forums emphasize letting go, as in letting go your control of everything around you.

Letting go of your fear is entirely different from letting go of your control. In fact, they're the exact opposite.

Letting go of your fear is claiming your personal power: your personal capability to act and influence the world.

Letting go of your control is relinquishing your individuality and becoming a non-entity: something who has less and less effect on the world, and thus inconsequential and not a part of it.

This is also a response to Selmanito's question. While it is arguable that you don't have a responsibility in this world, if you have one, then relinquishing control is forsaking it.

[Brutha]

Many people on these forums emphasize letting go, as in letting go your control of everything around you.

Trying to control everything around you is an excercise that can't succeed.
Influencing the events around you, to be positive on the other hand is archiveable and requires that you have room to breath. The most flexible person will also have a greater influence than someone who is depended on his surrounding's.

I do believe in God, and in my religion, im told to question Gods messege continously.

If you question something you need to doubt in it.
On the other hand most Christian churches think that doubting God is one of the highest crimes that a human can commit.

[JoeGoldfarb]

Originally Posted by Selmanito

I dont get it. Why do people refer to this of believing in god actually limits you and takes away your responsibility?

i have heard people say thing such as:

God killed my mother. (instead of taking responsibility for not bring her to the hospital when her diabetes took a bad turn.)
God will choose a place for me to live. (instead of actively choosing a place to live when their house gets foreclosed.)
God will provide money for me. (instead of getting a job.)

.. stuff like that. that, my friend, are people who believe in a God who takes away individual responsibility.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Brutha

If you question something you need to doubt in it.
On the other hand most Christian churches think that doubting God is one of the highest crimes that a human can commit.

The more rabid and fundamentalist the sect, the truer your statement. However, despite all the things I disagree with the church on, I have found its better representatives understand the concept that "God has broad shoulders" and that doubt is normal and even healthy. They are not threatened by it and sometimes even do a good job of helping their people struggle with it.

There are even rather extreme examples of this. Atheist Andre Compte-Sponville mentions a priest who commented favorably on one of Andre's talks. This surprised Andre and he said to the priest, "I'm surprised you agree so enthusiastically with me, given your beliefs about the existence of God and the afterlife." The priest smiled and said dismissively, "Oh, but those are such secondary questions".

You'd be surprised sometimes where you'll find enlightenment and out of the box thinking. Sometimes the rank and file don't take the leadership seriously; sometimes wise leadership is tolerated or overlooked by the institution.

--Bob

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by JoeGoldfarb

i have heard people say thing such as:

God killed my mother. (instead of taking responsibility for not bring her to the hospital when her diabetes took a bad turn.)
God will choose a place for me to live. (instead of actively choosing a place to live when their house gets foreclosed.)
God will provide money for me. (instead of getting a job.)

.. stuff like that. that, my friend, are people who believe in a God who takes away individual responsibility.

This is often true, but often not. The most I think you can justly say is that the church has at times an unhealthy preference for keeping people fat, dumb and either happy or repressed. But there are counterbalancing forces, even in the church -- hence, "God helps those who help themselves", the "Protestant work ethic", etc.

God can provide nice coat-tails to hide behind when you want to evade personal responsibility, but he also is the one who does all the smiting for falling short of his perfection ... so the willingness of some people to blame god for their problems and failures probably doesn't justify being down on god. Rather, it justifies being down on people for selectively picking and choosing what parts of their belief system they want to embrace in a given situation. I don't think that people of faith are especially more guilty than anyone else of having poorly integrated their beliefs with their daily lives. I see that in adherents to every (non)belief system on earth.

There are better reasons to question established religion than that.

--Bob

[jeff3]

The "Let go - let God" slogan is, IMO, just a way to release desires into the void. While a lot of people think it's a liability to believe in god , it has it's benefits, especially if the belief is well developed. This deal is a prime example, they may have some dreadful situation pop up and after considering and worrying a little , they pray about it and then 'let it go' . This does 2 things at once, first, they can take their mind off the bad and stop fueling a bad situation with their unhealthy thoughts and, their positive intentions are released completely so they don't keep re-visiting and changing them.

To 'let go and let god' can be a cop-out from responsibility, but only when their is not a well developed faith. I've seen it before myself, were someone who has religious exposure but no personal belief gets in a jam and just "gives it to god", frequently it ends up badly.

[joecooool]

if god exists we are all just rats in a maze

its a good thing there isn't a shred of evidence to support it.

god is dead, you're free!

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by joecooool

if god exists we are all just rats in a maze

its a good thing there isn't a shred of evidence to support it.

god is dead, you're free!

Why?

That's just one view of God. An old, worn out, outdated view of God as some being that's always watching and running the universe.

Change your view of God, and it becomes a whole lot easier to believe.

For example, you could say that God is the universe, and proof of the universe's existence isn't the most difficult thing to find.

[Michael Chui]

Here we go again.

[Jennihul]

Originally Posted by joecooool

if god exists we are all just rats in a maze

its a good thing there isn't a shred of evidence to support it.

god is dead, you're free!

I used to be an atheist. It was what I had to be, back then, to grow into what I am now. A step on the path I had to take.

It wasn't so much a rejection of God, it was a rejection of THE God I was told to worship. The way I was told to worship. The dogma. All the things that made no sense. That required the ubiquitous "F" word: Faith.

Believe it or not, one can find satisfaction believing in a God-force and not be a rat in a maze. In fact, be in total control of one's life and destiny. Not have to worship a Gosh-dern thing, as well. Not even have to pay dues to be in the club! Just cut out the middleman, study outside of the box and soon you realize it's really just you and the Source.

At that point, you know you could never abidicate responsibility for your life to anyone but yourself. Because you are God. God is you. God is every decision you make and every thing you sense. (If you don't like the "G" word you could always replace it with any approved New Age-y moniker that pleases you.)

Jennifer

[joecooool]

gods existence is unknown, and because its unknown it would be unjustified to believe god does exist, or doesn't exist.

that is why religion needs faith, but faith is nothing more then an excuse to believe in unknowable things

god must remain irrelevant, must remain as nothing more then a guess


just like the matrix, the fact that we may all be living and part of a simulation. perhaps running on an alien supercomputer.

its unknowable, therefore just like god: irrelevant


god, the matrix, etc... these things are useful for fantasy, but useless for reality

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by joecooool

gods existence is unknown, and because its unknown it would be unjustified to believe god does exist, or doesn't exist.

You should read Jennihul's post more carefully.

If God is existence, then he exists by definition.

Originally Posted by joecooool

these things are useful for fantasy, but useless for reality

Reality is part fantasy. Didn't you say, after all, that our knowledge is bounded by perception?

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Here we go again.

LOL...they must not have seen the other thread.

[LightWork]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

I used to be an atheist. It was what I had to be, back then, to grow into what I am now. A step on the path I had to take.

It wasn't so much a rejection of God, it was a rejection of THE God I was told to worship. The way I was told to worship. The dogma. All the things that made no sense. That required the ubiquitous "F" word: Faith.

Believe it or not, one can find satisfaction believing in a God-force and not be a rat in a maze. In fact, be in total control of one's life and destiny. Not have to worship a Gosh-dern thing, as well. Not even have to pay dues to be in the club! Just cut out the middleman, study outside of the box and soon you realize it's really just you and the Source.

At that point, you know you could never abidicate responsibility for your life to anyone but yourself. Because you are God. God is you. God is every decision you make and every thing you sense. (If you don't like the "G" word you could always replace it with any approved New Age-y moniker that pleases you.)

Jennifer

Amen. Dues to the best post I've seen on the forum so far.

[joecooool]

oh you've redefined existence as god, and reality as fantasy

♥♥♥♥ i guess believing in god is the rational choice then, and believing in reality is irrational

now science is the religion and religion is the science

haha are you kidding me?

how about i redefine idiot as you, and Santa clause as matter, and up as down, and right as wrong, and.....

[Michael Chui]

And what do you define God as? Something you don't believe in? How terribly convenient.

Read any book on psychology or sociology and tell me that reality is not part fantasy.

[joecooool]

reality it not part fantasy, reality is 100% real

only if you have a fantasy and consider it part of reality would your reality be part fantasy

like having a belief that god literally exists, then your reality is part fantasy


now if your questioning perception itself remember you cant, its paradoxical.

[Michael Chui]

And what reality do you have, except the one you perceive?

[Terumoto]

"Reality" could be considered fantasy or reality, depending on how you feel like looking at it...

[joecooool]

sorry guys but reality is not a fantasy its real

but yes there is a lot of subjectivity mixed in with our objectivity, this is why we have science, the best method of ruling out the subjectivity, and getting at the objectivity.

the only way reality itself could be a fantasy is if the universe is a dream in a giant intelligent beings mind, its possible but irrelevant.

religion is the fantasy, the reason people like religion is because it helps them escape reality, just like drugs do for some people. only religion/god is more of a placebo effect. you have to believe its real to get the effect.

they take advantage of our ignorance on the subjects of: intelligence, love, energy, and cosmology. to create their fantasy.

most people only like having as little objective knowledge as possible to survive and then filling the rest in with fantasy to make life as enjoyable as possible.

then objectivists like me come along and tell you some truth where you have some fantasy and it becomes a battle of fantasy vs reality, of pleasure vs truth.

poeple dont need truth in that area so they would rather have the pleasure, so they fight for that. just like fighting for gods existence when i come along and say that its more rational to simply believe matter is eternal.

[fellowtraveler]

You're still being obtuse, junior. Your posts are becoming tiresome and the attacks are childish. You've been bested already and your rigid thought processes have played themselves out. What is your point?

And please, here's a quarter...go buy some capital letters. e.e._cummings did it better almost a hundred years ago.

Please understand that this is said with the utmost love and affection. Sometimes baby bear needs to be cuffed up alongside his head in order to learn

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by joecooool

but yes there is a lot of subjectivity mixed in with our objectivity, this is why we have science, the best method of ruling out the subjectivity, and getting at the objectivity.

Three words: Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

There is no such thing as objectivity. You can come close, but you can never achieve it. At least, that's what science says. Your ideas are more fantastical than mine. Reality, hah.

I don't believe God exists. I just believe you're wrong.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

I used to be an atheist. It was what I had to be, back then, to grow into what I am now. A step on the path I had to take.

That's a pretty normal path of spiritual growth.

Peck posited four stages of religious experience and spiritual belief -- others have promulgated similar systems of classification:

1) Stage 1 -- little or no interest in anything past the end of your zotz, little or no personal responsibility or self control.
2) Stage 2 -- the self inflicted pain of stage one causes you to embrace a legalistic religious ideal that provides you needed structure, discipline and motivation. This might create a dramatic turnaround in your personal circumstances ("conversion" experience)
3) Stage 3 -- the inherent problems of stage 2 cause you to reject your faith and become some form of agnostic or atheist.
4) Stage 4 -- unable to forever elude the deep conviction that something is going on behind the scenes, you return to being okay with some concept of god or the transcendent, but you're much more comfortable with mystery and ambiguity then people in either stages 2 or 3, and much more interested in what IS rather than what you WISH is. Now you are constantly evolving and thinking more and more for yourself.

Traditional religious settings are primarily stage 2, with some stage 4 people hanging around but not saying too much. Stage 3 people tend to detest both stage 2 and stage 4 people. Stage 4 people tend to not get very flustered by much of anything.

It's not a perfect metaphor -- there is overlap between the stages and some people seem to spiral through them more than once, for instance. But I find this metaphor fairly accurate in understanding where people are at, metaphysically speaking.

--Bob

[joecooool]

Originally Posted by fellowtraveler

You're still being obtuse, junior. Your posts are becoming tiresome and the attacks are childish. You've been bested already and your rigid thought processes have played themselves out. What is your point?

And please, here's a quarter...go buy some capital letters. e.e._cummings did it better almost a hundred years ago.

Please understand that this is said with the utmost love and affection. Sometimes baby bear needs to be cuffed up alongside his head in order to learn

nice post here, nothing but insults to me, and condoning hitting children.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Three words: Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

There is no such thing as objectivity. You can come close, but you can never achieve it. At least, that's what science says. Your ideas are more fantastical than mine. Reality, hah.

I don't believe God exists. I just believe you're wrong.

saying theirs no such thing as objectivity is self refuting, its like saying truth doesn't exist.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by joecooool

saying theirs no such thing as objectivity is self refuting, its like saying truth doesn't exist.

Do you have empirical evidence that truth exists?

[joecooool]

empirical evidence is the truth

and explaining that empirical evidence with logic into a scientific theory is objective

because logics 'axioms' are based on perceived reality

its all about perception being boss

when i say perception i mean observation etc..

knowledge comes from perception, so perception is boss over it

u cant use knowledge to put truth and objectivity on some unreachable fantasy pedestal, and then use that to say perceived reality cant reach it, and therefore absolute truth doesn't exist and reality is subjective.

because the very knowledge you used to create that unreachable fantasy pedestal comes from perception, which is why its paradoxical to question/doubt perception itself. not an individual perceived thing, actual perception itself! it cannot question itself, because otherwise even the question becomes questioned, = paradox

its our perception of real reality that builds our picture of internal reality(knowledge), not the other way around.

the most real thing that is perceivable is the benchmark for truth, objectivity, and what is real.

see reality doesn't need to be absolutely real, like as real as the unreachable fantasy pedestal you might have put 'real' on. it only has to be as real as we are.

relativity saves it. the reality around me is as real as i am(however real that is) so if i want to evade death then i have to follow the rules of that reality like its real.

because as soon as i buy into death being bad then i have already bought into perceived reality. i perceive my body, i perceive myself. so if im going to listen to death being bad, then i have to listen to all of my perception. i cant choose what parts of my perception i want to listen to and ignore others. like say im real, but my reality is fake or something.

its all about death, or as evolutionists put it: survival!

maybe the afterlife exists, nobody knows, and because its unknown its irrelevant. ill worry about the afterlife when i get there. for now ill play like it doesn't exist. if it does bonus, and if not its no big deal, because i wont know it anyway.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by joecooool

when i say perception i mean observation etc..

knowledge comes from perception, so perception is boss over it

Correct. And objectivity does not come from perception. Ergo, you cannot have objective knowledge, because, by definition, nothing can be objectively perceived.

I am not doubting perception. I am saying that it trumps reality itself. A fact that is well-documented in scientific literature across at least three fields, not to mention the basis of good science itself (i.e. researcher bias).

Oh, and,

Originally Posted by joecooool

the most real thing that is perceivable is the benchmark for truth, objectivity, and what is real.

This is a circular definition. Reality is a benchmark for reality. Good job. Tautology ftw.

Originally Posted by joecooool

because as soon as i buy into death being bad then i have already bought into perceived reality.

A passable summary of subjective reality. Thank you.