Consciousness, Love, Freedom

[Lauxa]

I've been reading Steve's site for about 18 months, and started attending a Unity church about a year ago, really trying to wrap my head around the consequences of accepting Love as the highest virtue. It seems that most people who accept this have a belief in the soul and the continuation of consciousness after death. I have a cousin who is hard-core atheist and very critical of these ideas and always wants to grill me so he can poke holes in every theory that does not line up with his concept of reality. Finally I asked him what is his theory on how life works.

He said that he basically thinks that human babies are born into this world with some basic hardware and BIOS and then as we live self-modifying code is written to our brains and consciousness results from this process. In his mind, the idea of consciousness apart from life is as implausible as a computer working after the battery is removed. As evidence, he points to computers and robots that simulate consciousness and to brain probes that "turn off" certain parts of consciousness by direct electrical stimulation.

To me, I like to give a certain weight to people who testify to direct experience of psychic phenomena, especially when I cannot see any reason for these people to lie (of course, he says I am too naive and trusting). I like the theory that we can access more than this physical dimension and that while paranormal experiences may be misinterpreted they are still valuable glimpses of a non-physical reality. However, I have not had personal access to any paranormal experiences and accounts of what that non-physical reality is like are quite contradictory. Also, it seems that none of these paranormal experiences can yet be replicated in a way where they can be scrutinized by science.

In his view the highest goal is Freedom, not Love, and Freedom is worth fighting and killing for. Not because of any real point to life, but just because life without Freedom sucks. Of course the prime example is the American Revolution, which we have been taught from childhood was Good.

Anyways, I would like to hear some thoughts about (1) whether you believe in non-corporeal consciousness and why and (2) whether you think this belief affects whether Love or Freedom is more important.

I have many more thoughts, but I will stop rambling for now and see if I can get any responses for a conversation.

[Rhythman]

I hold no beliefs outside of my direct experience. I am open to investigating things and have no intention on denying other people their reality. If "I" "experienced" consciousness before "I" was born, "I" do not remember it. For me, this is unknown.

Love naturally occurs as a result of freedom (freedom being identification with nothing).

Rhythman

[jsam]

Forgiveness brings acceptance. Acceptance eliminates resistance between; the elimination of resistance between, brings Love. Unconditional Love. Not love of one for another, but a field or continuum of Love. No one can give empirical, verbal, proof of awareness beyond the physical, but when you are conscious of it, no proof or explaination is desired. It is definitely worth the quest for it. Never give up!

Never seek advice, or offer it; that is my advice!

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

In his mind, the idea of consciousness apart from life is as implausible as a computer working after the battery is removed. As evidence, he points to computers and robots that simulate consciousness and to brain probes that "turn off" certain parts of consciousness by direct electrical stimulation.

Dr Peter Fenwick, a prominent neuroscientist, would disagree, because of the results of his research into near-death experiences.

Fenwick has noted many cases of severely injured patients whose brains have shut down (no more electrical activity is detected) and yet when they revive, they give clear, lucid, very coherent accounts of near-death experiences (NDEs).

Fenwick's point is that if consciousness is dependent on the brain, this shold not be possible. The zero level of electrical activity in the brain should not be able to support a hallucination, let alone such a clear, lucid account (which coincidentally turns out to be the same kind of account given by everyone who has ever had an NDE).

Fenwick's further point is that even if it was all a hallucination, the patient should not be able to recall it. This is because the brain has already shut down, such that the memory functions have collapsed.

In other words, the fact that people with zero electrical activity in the brain still do have NDEs demonstrates that consciousness is, or can be, independent of the brain.

Fenwick, by the way, is no cookie scientist, but a highly respected doctor in the medical community.

Anyway, excerpt from one of his speeches. Long speech, so i only give a brief excerpt

Simultaneous recording of heart rate and brain output show that within 11 seconds of the heart stopping, the brainwaves go flat. Now, if you read the literature on this, some skeptical people claim that in this state there is still brain activity, but, in fact, the data are against this in both animals and humans. The brain is not functioning, and you are not going to get your electrical activity back again until the heart restarts.

The flat electroencephalogram (EEG), indicating no brain activity during cardiac arrest, and the high incidence of brain damage afterwards both point to the conclusion that the unconsciousness in cardiac arrest is total. You cannot argue that there are ‘‘bits’’ of the brain that are functioning; there are not. There is a confusional onset and offset, and there is no brain-based memory functioning. Everything that constructs our world for us is, in fact, ‘‘down.’’ There is no possibility of the brain creating any images. Memory is not functioning during this time, so it should be impossible to have clearly structured and lucid experiences, and because of brain damage, memory should be significantly impaired, and you should not be able to remember any experiences which occurred during that time. Now, that raises interesting and difficult questions for us, because the NDErs say that their experiences occur during unconsciousness, and science maintains that this is not possible.

Figure 1
Changes in consciousness during cardiac arrest.


Figure 1 is an illustration I have drawn that I hope is helpful. The height of the line above the x axis shows the intensity of consciousness, and the squiggly line represents the level of consciousness. When the heart stops, the line starts to dip, and consciousness is lost. So you are going along conscious, your heart stops, and there is a very quick descent into unconsciousness. Those of you who have ever fainted will agree that when you faint you lose consciousness very quickly. So you lose consciousness, then you are unconscious, and then the heart restarts, so science says the NDE cannot occur while you are unconsciousness; that is the pink area in the diagram. Now, as you slowly regain consciousness, the slow recovery is all confusional, so the NDE cannot occur there .......

[veranadine]

Lauxa,

I feel for you, as I have, over my years of psychic and spiritual development, encountered others like your cousin.

Something in them is inflamed and hurt, whether the admit it consciously or not, and thus they feel the need to strip all spirituality and love from their thought processes and their vision of reality.

This is as it should be, for we all have free will. But the need that some of them feel to strip you, of beliefs that make you happy and more spiritually aware, is unfair.

As a channel and inspirational writer, I do indeed have many thoughts, theories and experiences regarding spirituality, the nature of the reincarnating soul and universal love.

The information is, naturally, too in-depth and varied to properly post here, but I maintain a blog that deals with these topics. Feel free to visit.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

Love & Blessings,

[Selmanito]

I agree with VeraNadine.

People usually go through something painful when they themselves delete love from their lives. But it could be he/she has been conditioned to be this way.

I say this because a friend of mine was so "cold" and similar to your cousin. An anthiest, believing in only what he sees, and fullstop. I later found out that his family were not so close, and the "Athiest" that he called himself, was just a castle he built around to protect himself. Just like some people use religion that way (altho i think true religion is the most misunderstood subject of all in the history of mankind).

I always had "feelings" of phsycic abilities, But whenever i watched a phycic film, it was dismissed because i have watched the film so i might just have "wanted" to feel that way. But after years of going back and fourth. I really found it when i started trusting it. It amazes me everytime, cant point it out exactly how it works, or even why it workds at times, and why it doesnt at times, im growing tho

Yes i did get obsessed at one point trying to "prove" this to my friends. When i got a lecture of sanity from my dad however, i thought its best left at that. After reading some of steve's articles, i agree with him that you do not need to prove reality, as reality doesnt even care to be proven, it is just there. I know this is not probably the best answer you were looking for, but probably going towards the right direction i hope.

until next time , take care, and as steve sasy, "live consiously" hehe (been listening to audio files on repeat! lol)

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Anyways, I would like to hear some thoughts about (1) whether you believe in non-corporeal consciousness and why

I believe in non-corporeal counsciousness. This belief is actually a choice because I find it more enjoyable and powerful to live with this belief than if I believe counsciousness can only exist in the physical world.

Why do I believe in non corporeal consciousness :
Right now, you cannot prove that you are not dreaming. It's impossible to prove that the physical world we experience right now is not some kind of dream or illusion. Look at your hands, look at the screen of your computer...Are you sure you're not dreaming, is this really real?
If your cousin answers "yes", then ask him to prove it

As it is impossible to prove it, then it is a choice to believe wether or not it exists.
I choose to believe it doesn't exist as objectively as scientists and your cousin think. To me the physical world is some kind of dream, or creation, of Counsciousness. And so this Counsciousness is non-corporeal, and doesn't need the physical world to exist. It is the constant creator of the physical world, and can very well create other non-physical realms. It is all there IS, and includes you and me and your cousin. So we are the same counsciousness, the same "dreamer".

and (2) whether you think this belief affects whether Love or Freedom is more important.

I don't know if this belief particularly affects wether Love or Freedom is more important. Personnaly I resonate a lot with the value of Freedom, but I think it is not necessarily the case for everyone who holds this belief. It is more something personnal in my opinion.


Side comment :

In his view the highest goal is Freedom, not Love, and Freedom is worth fighting and killing for. Not because of any real point to life, but just because life without Freedom sucks. Of course the prime example is the American Revolution, which we have been taught from childhood was Good.

To me killing for Freedom comes from a inaccurate vision of this value.
If someone kills for freedom, it means that he is attaching his freedom to a specific situation in the physical world. For instance : "when the oppressor is gone, I'll be free". It seems pretty logical indeed.
However, Freedom cannot be attached to anything. It is contradictory to attach freedom to a situation. By its nature, freedom is free, so attaching it to something is an act of reducing freedom. (free = opposite of attached)
Freedom in the physical world is an effect of true Freedom, not a cause of it. So it is not efficient to fight and kill for Freedom.