| |||||||
| Register | FAQ | Members List | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
| Spirituality, Consciousness, & Awareness Spirituality, beliefs, the nature of reality, consciousness, awareness, metaphysics, truth, philosophy, religion |
|
Welcome to the Personal Development for Smart People Forums, the place for lively, intelligent discussion of all personal growth issues -- physical, mental, financial, social, emotional, spiritual, and more. You're currently viewing as a guest, which gives you limited read-only access. By joining our free community, you'll be able to post your own messages, access many members-only features, see the new messages posted since your last visit, and of course remove this header message. Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please join today. If you arrived here from a search engine, you may want to explore the main site first, which includes hundreds of deep and insightful articles on a variety of personal development topics. |
 |
| | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
01-25-2008, 12:48 PM
| |||
| |||
 Jed McKenna, enlightenment, and self-development Hi everyone! I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with Jed McKenna, who has written Spiritual Enlightenment: The Damnedest Thing and Spiritual Warfare? He takes a very straighforward, clearcut approach the much muddied topic of enlightenment, advising those serious about waking up to "sit down, shut up, and ask yourself 'what's true?' until you know." He resembles U.G. Krishnamurti, the anti-guru, in some ways. I really have been deeply influenced by his books, as they are what I have been unknowingly waiting for my whole life. I would be happy to know what you think. Thanks, goldmbe www.discountenlightenment.com      |
|
01-25-2008, 07:06 PM
| |||
| |||
| I haven't read them, but judging by the titles they sound pretty interesting. I like the style. The reviews on Amazon look decent too.
__________________ Best, Dan Linehan |
|
01-30-2008, 02:28 AM
| |||
| |||
| I've read a couple of his books and found them to be very similar to other such books, even self-help books, in that the core message is at risk of being lost amongst pages of text which skirts the issue without contributing anything but some entertainment (at least in Jed's case. Many other books aren't even entertaining). None the less the books are a good account of one path to one kind of enlightenment, and would be particularly appealing to those who find other paths to be strewn with superfluous rituals/beliefs. But don't be fooled. It boils down to a denial of everything that you've come to accept, including the things you now consider good. It might lead to freedom from ego, but only at the cost of its destruction. There are much less psychologically damaging ways of making the same journey.
__________________ Take a stroll down The Winding Path and let me know what you think of the scenery. |
|
01-30-2008, 05:58 AM
| |||
| |||
| Quote:
Are you talking about self-development? Because I can see what you mean if you were referring to that, since it's about "improving your ego," but that goal is completely different to the goal of enlightenment/awakening, isn't it? Just wondering what you mean by that. |
|
01-30-2008, 08:30 PM
| |||
| |||
| Yes, that is the crux of enlightenment, in some belief systems. But regardless of the belief system and regardless of the goal, the effect is to alter your psyche. This method can be a very aggressive one and if it goes that way you will become more aggressive to the ideas/thoughts/opinions of others, as you were towards yours during the process of attaining 'enlightenment'. That's quite clear in Jed's attitude towards most people except those very few he decides to respect. Ultimately, it's only the belief of the 'enlightened' one which says that the ego has been destroyed. There's still an unanswered question of what really happened inside their head. Jed's writing shows strong evidence that something which could be called an ego is very much present, and not simply in the poor-fitting form he talks about. It's my belief that if even there is a spiritual realm, when it operates through the physical it does so through our body, and central to that operation is our brain. You're altering your brain when you try to attain enlightenment and as long as you inhabit your body you will have to live with the consequences, which are not necessarily going to be positive. The interaction between the spiritual and physical realms is questionable. The fact that we're reliant on our brain, and that it's malleable, is not. There is simply far too much evidence in support of what the study of psychology and neuroscience tells us. (though I'm sure many people will disagree with me) |
|
02-02-2008, 05:13 AM
| |||
| |||
| Wow Mark that is quite an intense belief. I never thought of trying to attain enlightenment as possibly brain-damaging. I'm in the middle of Jed's first book, and he seems to be in line with Maharaj and Adams so far. All of these guys have a little bit of an attitude, but I don't think it comes from the ego. Possibly remnants of it, I'm not sure. Jed does seem to have it the most though... Erock
__________________ "I just kind of expected to win" - Pete Sampras |
|
02-02-2008, 05:48 AM
| |||
| |||
| From what I remember of Tolle's writings is: the ego is to be disidentified with, not destroyed (who would be saying it needs to be destroyed I wonder?). The ego becomes something that no longer holds any of it's own power, awareness of the present moment becomes the true constant of the mind. And to imply that the ego can be destroyed indicates to me that it somehow cannot reestablish itself if something incredibly intense happens to the mind of an enlightened person. From what I understand, the ego is not destroyed on the realization of enlightenment, just put into a dormant state that it has little to no capability of ever escaping- no reliable energy for it to devour any longer. Making it very understandable why the ego is utterly terrified of losing it's power.
__________________ Attention. Here and now. |
|
02-02-2008, 09:49 AM
| |||
| |||
| Quote:
We are dividuals not individuals. I especially liked your use of the words energy and devour like the ego blown up is an energy vampire, which, it is. Once the ego is put in its place and it doesn't have the control it once had it can sometimes be hard to fit into the mainstream of society since much of it is ego driven. Employers and people in general expect you to want more and to fear death. This chasing desires and running from death drives the masses in their behavior. Putting the ego away can remove this push/pull.
__________________ This very moment is the perfect teacher, and lucky for us, it's with us wherever we go. -- Pema Chodron |
|
02-03-2008, 08:26 AM
| |||
| |||
| Quote:
|
|
02-03-2008, 02:56 PM
| |||
| |||
| Enlightenment, by nature, is gentle I think any path that gets you fighting with the ego, is not a path to enlightenment. Enlightenment is an opening of the perspective or avenue of awareness beyond where the ego is needed. Enlightenment is peaceful and without opposition; it is not duality, it is not good or bad, it is beyond definition -- yet as an experience it is very real. The awareness of the oneness of all, the love of all, the experience is so beyond the ego; that in that state, the ego just isn't needed, it is extraneous noise. I'm not enlightened, but I have had those moments, those experiences. They call to me. That state, that experience calls to me. I choose to answer sometimes, and sometimes I listen to the ego. . . . Blessings from Belle,  |
|
02-04-2008, 06:00 AM
| |||
| |||
| Don't be mistaken, I'm not suggesting that the path to enlightenment is psychologically damaging. Not in itself. Just that the method Jed discusses *could* be. |
|
02-04-2008, 10:11 AM
| |||
| |||
| beyond the ego I agree with Belle, not that i believe in enlightnement per say but awareness beyond the ego is wonderful and not damaging (or possibly) damaging at all, it is unified and co-operative, in my experience. There are loads of ways we are told to become enlightened but in my view these should be natural processes that promoted well being, health, awareness. For me, the process of becoming more aware is the stripping away of limiting ideas and beleifs and in doing so the natural self is left and experienced, a self that is aware of itself within and without of the ego, and happy and secure in both, dave |
|
02-05-2008, 09:40 PM
| |||
| |||
| From what I've read there seems to be 2 paths to enlightenment. 1. Self-enquiry 2. Completely silencing the mind, completely "giving up" on life (not in a suicidal way, just a complete non-attachment way), completely surrendering. I'm not sure which way is more effective. This Jed dude, along with Maharshi, seem to recommend the first one, while Maharji and the zen meditation people did the second. Although if I were to pick one person who's faking enlightenment it would definitely be Mckenna, I agree with him on one point and that is that enlightenment is simply the truth, and that's it. It's not some high flying, dragons and unicorns, everlasting high where you ride with Aladdin on a magic carpet into a whole new world. It's just realizing the truth at an extremely deep level, to the point where you see your ego and personality as fake, along with the world. Erock
__________________ "I just kind of expected to win" - Pete Sampras |
|
05-10-2008, 11:43 AM
| |||
| |||
| I've purchased the first book and only having read 1/3 of it so far. My impression on it is similar to Mark's. But don't be fooled. It boils down to a denial of everything that you've come to accept, including the things you now consider good. It might lead to freedom from ego, but only at the cost of its destruction. There are much less psychologically damaging ways of making the same journey. Jed talk about paying a price if you take the route that he outlines. |
|
05-10-2008, 02:42 PM
| |||
| |||
| What do you know for sure? Having digested all 3 of his books, I believe McKenna's approach to enlightenment boils down to his understanding of truth. Again, the McKenna school of enlightenment is not about expanding awareness or an eternal buzz or floating on cloud nine every single moment of every single day for the rest of your life, or what have you. And he'd probably say that anything that does not involve war with delusion is nothing more than self deceptive mental masturbation, including and especially self development. As Erock pointed out, McKenna would say that the real spiritual journey is simply about the truth, what is. All the rest, according to McKenna is nothing more than elaborate denial of death and nothingness. |
|
05-10-2008, 02:57 PM
| |||
| |||
| I rather like Lester Levenson's approach to enlightenment. Release emotions, release thoughts, release perspectives. What is left is what is real. The techniques Lester developed are offered as part of training seminars through different venues; so far I've found three different sources / variations of the training Lester developed. But my favorite read is the books which are filled with his own words -- probably taped and then transcribed into books. That is where he speaks most candidly about the perspective of enlightenment. His perspective resonates for me, and his beliefs jive with mine, so I've been really enjoying his books. I just love his gentleness about the whole thing. It is nice reading Lester's words; he is a man from our western-european culture who seems to have made this shift in perspective. It feels bona fide to me, when I read his writings. And his words and perspective is soooo sweet and kind; totally harmless. Anyway, just wanted to share. . . . Last edited by bellemeadows : 05-10-2008 at 03:00 PM. |
|
09-14-2008, 11:09 PM
| |||
| |||
| help digesting McKenna I just finished reading Jed McKenna's first book and am not sure what to make of it. At first, I just felt a great sense of relief -- if nothing is real (I think that's what he's saying?), then nothing matters. Then I don't have to care what other people think about me, if I get fired, if my kids eat junk food, if my son does his homework, etc. I guess this is all a tremendous burden on me all the time -- more than I ever realized -- trying to do the right thing. But I am confused. Is he saying other people aren't real -- is everyone just in my mind and I don't have to care about anyone else or the earth or anything? If that is true, then what's the point of everything? Why not just kill myself and get it over with? Why go on with the facade? If other people are real, then does it really matter if everything we experience is fake? We are still interacting with others and that is real. I am deeply confused. And Jed's points on depression being a realistic response to the universe didn't help. Now I am depressed. So if I believe what he says is true, how am I to live my day to day life? Do I give up going to work? Do I give up doing anything except playing video games and watching TV as he does? |
|
09-15-2008, 12:32 AM
| |||
| |||
| Quote:
I feel or have realized my truths at a deep level. I could say that many were in my subconsciousness or a part of ego that formed, what I refer to now as, illusions. They were not illusions until I had experience to the contrary. However, I still have a personality/ego or a sense of who I am based on my life experiences. The only thing that has changed is how I perceive those experiences. The 'ego stories' I used to tell myself about my experiences with others no longer suffice. I use both methods of self-enquiry and surrender. To me it is a question and answer process. It's the only way I know.  |
|
09-15-2008, 12:45 AM
| |||
| |||
| Quote:
It isn't conducive to be led down the garden path on wonderful feelings when all around you is crumbling. I feel these 'good' feelings are the epitome of denial. Depression has been a major part of my path. Although a difficult path, the depression guides me to a deeper sense of self, if and when I can allow it.  I wish you well. |
|
09-15-2008, 12:56 AM
| |||
| |||
| Quote:
Just kidding. (except nobody's ever really just kidding  .) You don't have to care about getting fired, being liked, your kids' eating habits, or anything else -- whether you read this book or not. You get to choose what you care about; you get to choose what you believe, and you get to choose what kind of day you are going to live on a day-to-day basis. No one makes you depressed, and no one makes you care. You get to choose, so choose! Maguru and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum about the feeling good vs. being depressed choice, but either way, we're both free to choose. So are you! |