schizophrenia and spirituality

[lawnislandguy]

I know someone who is afflicted with this serious mental condition. Does anyone think it would be dangerous to maybe seek guidance from a shaman or other spiritual source? The medications that he's on help subdue the condition, but I once read a book Enter the Circle about fifteen years ago, It dealt with similar subjects. I know the human mind is capable of tapping into greater knowledge than what we learn from books, why not try and treat a mental condition with a greater source other than super rich drug companies and institutional hospitals.
I would like to hear someone else's thoughts on this matter. Do you feel the same?
Thanks for listening Ryan

[Matthew Shea]

Serious mental conditions, like schizophrenia, are typically due to chemical, electrical or physical problems in the brain. You can't simply "guide" (for lack of a better term) something like that away. When a brain is short circuiting and isn't working right in the first place, I just can't see how spiritual guidance could help. This isn't to say there would be no benefit at all from such a thing, but it doesn't help with the root of the problem. That has to be treated medically.

Having said that, medicines are far from perfect and many mentally ill don't want to take them due to the side effects, but in my humble opinion, it's the best alternative we have until we understand the causes of these conditions better and come up with better ways to treat and prevent them.

[Maguru]

It cannot be assumed that mental illness is a physical problem of the brain as many are not. The causes can begin with trauma, abuse, neglect, abandonment etc. These are 'dis-eases' of the mind, not the brain. No drugs can cure the mind, only the mind can.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Serious mental conditions, like schizophrenia, are typically due to chemical, electrical or physical problems in the brain. You can't simply "guide" (for lack of a better term) something like that away. When a brain is short circuiting and isn't working right in the first place, I just can't see how spiritual guidance could help. This isn't to say there would be no benefit at all from such a thing, but it doesn't help with the root of the problem. That has to be treated medically.

Having said that, medicines are far from perfect and many mentally ill don't want to take them due to the side effects, but in my humble opinion, it's the best alternative we have until we understand the causes of these conditions better and come up with better ways to treat and prevent them.

[Maguru]

Absolutely! Haven't many geniuses been raving bonkers? The mind is an incredible entity and should not be dismissed as 'mental'.

Originally Posted by lawnislandguy

I know someone who is afflicted with this serious mental condition. Does anyone think it would be dangerous to maybe seek guidance from a shaman or other spiritual source? The medications that he's on help subdue the condition, but I once read a book Enter the Circle about fifteen years ago, It dealt with similar subjects. I know the human mind is capable of tapping into greater knowledge than what we learn from books, why not try and treat a mental condition with a greater source other than super rich drug companies and institutional hospitals.
I would like to hear someone else's thoughts on this matter. Do you feel the same?
Thanks for listening Ryan

[Old Soul]

I personally believe after being on the same type of medications of those with schitsophrenia, ie) seroquel , that those who are suffering a tormented mind, (not brain), suffer doubly because of those meds... all anti phsycotics do is super sedate you, true these meds kill "mania" but they do not stop the dellusions and hallucinations of physkitsophrenia ...

it is just that all we have for medications thus far for schitsoprenia is Anti physcotitcs, I was only on them short term to kill a very severe manic episode
where as schizoprenics have to rely on them daily

I have been saying for along time now that more should be done for this disease, no human being should have to suffer his own mental torment day in and day out .. I also think the drugs we have are a terrible consulation


Also when diagnosing Bipolor , they have a scale and there are degrees of this mood disorder:

"Cyclomythia", Bipolor 2 and bipolor 1 , some doctors recognise "rapid cycling"

to be diagnosed with Biplor 1 , yes you must have one full manic episode, and one depressive episode , almost always hospitalised, however
there are also 5 other factors, that a good physciatrist looks at before a full "diagnosis" can be given of bipolor 1 disorder, these questions i believe look at the family and get an idea of genetics

1) history of alchoholism in parents (yes)
2) bouts of depression in parents (yes)
3) suicide in the family (yes)
4) if female did you suffer from post partum depression (yes) discuss severity
5) age at your first onslought of depression

so while it is true that you do have to have one full blown (pure) manic episode and full depressive episode , and you answer yes to 5 of the 5 then you are classified under the diagnoses bipolor 1

[Matthew Shea]

Originally Posted by Maguru

[snip]The causes can begin with trauma[/snip]

Just to point out, trauma can and sometimes does cause injuries to the brain. That can very well result in a condition such as schizophrenia, depression, bi-polar, amnesia etc.

Also, just to get our definitions straight, mental means "pertaining to the mind", not the brain. I never said that mental diseases like schizophrenia were diseases of the brain. I did state that such conditions can and typically are caused by underlying problems in the brain. There's a difference, but the mind and the brain are so tightly interconnected and dependent on each other that it's impossible to say with any degree of certainty that a particular symptom of a mental condition has its roots in one or the other. The medications we have today try to treat the underlying physical problem in the brain to allow the mind to work more normally. They can't treat the mind, but they can ideally/theoretically remove the underlying physical problem to give the mind a fighting chance at clarity and/or normalcy.

Also, just because our medical understanding of the brain is still limited and our treatments imperfect doesn't mean we should give up on them. To do so is a disservice to those suffering from the types of mental conditions that have diagnosable physical causes. More research is certainly needed.

[Maguru]

I feel your perception is from knowledge and not from experience. I am speaking from experience. Those labels are terms for a group of symptoms that the sufferer is experiencing. The symptoms are addressed but not the cause. It is no better than putting a band aid on a broken leg.

We are all, without exception, a product of our whole life experiences. These mental illnesses develop just as physical diseases do. They sometimes take years to manifest and usually begin in childhood.

What makes you think people aren't thinking with clarity or aren't thinking normally? Because to others it sounds strange or weird or negative? Is it possible that these 'mental illnesses' are not mental illnesses at all but they are indicators of where society needs to change? In fact, could their suffering be the greatest act of love towards humanity that the world has ever known?

Dismissing the message by labelling and not listening is a great dis-service to us all. We are all undergoing a process of change and sometimes the change is in the form of mental illness. A wake up call that we would be wise to hear.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Just to point out, trauma can and sometimes does cause injuries to the brain. That can very well result in a condition such as schizophrenia, depression, bi-polar, amnesia etc.

Also, just to get our definitions straight, mental means "pertaining to the mind", not the brain. I never said that mental diseases like schizophrenia were diseases of the brain. I did state that such conditions can and typically are caused by underlying problems in the brain. There's a difference, but the mind and the brain are so tightly interconnected and dependent on each other that it's impossible to say with any degree of certainty that a particular symptom of a mental condition has its roots in one or the other. The medications we have today try to treat the underlying physical problem in the brain to allow the mind to work more normally. They can't treat the mind, but they can ideally/theoretically remove the underlying physical problem to give the mind a fighting chance at clarity and/or normalcy.

Also, just because our medical understanding of the brain is still limited and our treatments imperfect doesn't mean we should give up on them. To do so is a disservice to those suffering from the types of mental conditions that have diagnosable physical causes. More research is certainly needed.

[Old Soul]

Coming from where I sit, your message is one of hope , kindness and great insight!!!!!

And I for one thankyou for that, Maguru!!

[Maguru]

well, bless my soul I'm humbled. Thankyou, old soul.

Originally Posted by Old Soul

Coming from where I sit, your message is one of hope , kindness and great insight!!!!!

And I for one thankyou for that, Maguru!!

[richard hurst]

The problems for some people who develop fool blown schizophrenia and are having cognitive difficulties trying to cope with the auditory hallucinations is how to rationally explain it to them and how the brain actually understands these effects themselves. For some people the voices will always confuse and upset them. Why they cant accepts that’s its actually coming from within there own mind as the external voices can almost seem some kind of phenomena. A good way to look at it without getting into the technical sides of echoic storages systems and the way noise travels and is stored in the areas of the brain. Is to just see it as a speaker system that echoes within the mind. A bit like an echo of thoughts. Why they are loud as sometimes quite terrifying, as a persecution complex often arises. A good way to deal with it is to put positive information in of some kind and you will get positive output of voices and they will reduce in noise level. There is a possibility that the voices are the unconscious, which we are normally unable to hear. During an episode they can be heard quite clearly.

[Old Soul]

is how to rationally explain it to them and how the brain actually understands these effects themselves.

ok so your theory is to feed positive messages, information which in turn has a positive effect on the way the disease effects the person with schizophrenia?

but then you are still dealing with the "degenerative" part of this disease..
the dellusions, hallucinations. and "voices" take over , (wether these auditory voices are positive or negative) they are always present, just medicated to a dull roar... so any ability to think cognitively is lost, it is impossible for them to distinguish reality from the disease....

A person who is manic , also experiences some of the same symptoms as schizoprenia, hallucinations, dellusions, and voices the only difference is we are able to have periods , in most cases long periods of stability , where our cognitve ability is fine ..........this is not an option for schizoprenics

[robertanthony]

Hi Law

Excellent question check out this site. A Question of Schizophrenia or Spiritual Emergence. Mental Illness or Psychic Awakening?

Also there is a connection between so called psychics having Narcisstic Personality Disorder - they attract others with the same condition. Narcissistic personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They make money out of the symptoms - especially anxiety, fear, trauma, death.

[Old Soul]

They make money out of the symptoms - especially anxiety, fear, trauma, death.

Who makes money out of the symptoms? shrinks or Psychics?

[ipo]

From my experience, medications should not be stopped. As far as mental disorders, i have understood that it is due to karmic reasons from past lives. I have stopped my medications in belief that through awareness i can cure myself, big mistake! Huge one! I believe that the side effects of medications are also karmic, we have no option but to go thru it. Meanwhile, one may work on oneself to increase one's presence. It is not easy at all especially with an anti-psychotic. My uncle has schizophrenia, and it's much worse, he has to be on anti-psychotics for his life time which makes it almost impossible to be present.

[AliB1959]

Originally Posted by lawnislandguy

I know someone who is afflicted with this serious mental condition. Does anyone think it would be dangerous to maybe seek guidance from a shaman or other spiritual source? The medications that he's on help subdue the condition, but I once read a book Enter the Circle about fifteen years ago, It dealt with similar subjects. I know the human mind is capable of tapping into greater knowledge than what we learn from books, why not try and treat a mental condition with a greater source other than super rich drug companies and institutional hospitals.
I would like to hear someone else's thoughts on this matter. Do you feel the same?
Thanks for listening Ryan

HI Ryan - I went on Amazon to see "Enter the Circle" but couldn't find it; could the name be slightly different? I'm really interested in what you're talking about here.

Ali

[AliB1959]

Oh My Goodness; after reading the rest of the posts here, I'm into a real deep subject.

When I see a person walking down the street who appears to be transient and screaming at something I can't see, I wonder "Does he/she see something or someone I can't because I'm not aware enough to see other dimensions? or is that person dangerous? is that person mentally ill?"

I haven't figured out an answer to that question yet. I think it's a fine and "obscure" line between who is mentally ill and who is "within normal guidelines" in this society. What I think and share is publicly correct, but what I believe is way outside the lines.

It's kinda like working with software; 10 ways to do the same thing, but each person has their favorite and "correct" way to do it and we all better follow along (big bro)

[Amatrine]

Karmic , side effects to medications? Then I must have been the worst person in the world.

I am allergic to ALL antibiotics and ALL opiod pain killers. I need three surgeries and can not have them because they can not give me antibiotics.
I am also allergic to the nexium I need, Iv contrast die, a very long list. I have 4 autoimmune diseases, and a heart condition and can not treat it because of allergies to medication. True anaphalactic, cerberal edema, type allergies.

Things most take for granite, UTI's , strept, get me sick for months. I have painful stenosis , Rheumotoid arthritis, and chronic kidney stones, and can not take anything stronger than tordol. My life is a living hell, as a result. The person I am,
I do not think I did something super horrible to deserve this. I have bad genetics. If anything, and if there were a next life, mabey I would be a very good caretaker because I know what it is like to suffer every day for years on end in pain and illness. Mabey this is what Im hear to learn. in this life I have compassion for others that are ill.

I have compassion for everyone. People that we may consider bad, got that way from hurt themselves. I do not accept that they make bad choices, but can understand why they do. That helps me forgive people with demons in my own life.

Mental illness, I had someone close that was schizophrinc . She came from
parents that were alcoholic, and violent. She was a violent child. She was the sister of my X. She eneded up killing herself in the end. Weather or not what they see or hear is real, it is real, because to their reality , it is.
Their reality is just not one of general concionseness, but none the less it is still real. I have had side effects of medication that caused me to be physcotic as a reult of cerebral swelling. What I felt, was very real to me at that time. If I had to live like that daily, I couldnt. I agree, they need to treat the problems in the mind, not just sedate. Mabey if doctors looked at the patient as thier reality, and tried to teach them to deal with thier reality, rather than trying to make them acceptable to our own, they would really be helping them.

Anyway,. thats my rant tonight .

Ama

[Maguru]

Excellent site! Thanks and I hope it brings clarity, peace and understanding for us all.

Originally Posted by robertanthony

Hi Law

Excellent question check out this site. A Question of Schizophrenia or Spiritual Emergence. Mental Illness or Psychic Awakening?

Also there is a connection between so called psychics having Narcisstic Personality Disorder - they attract others with the same condition. Narcissistic personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They make money out of the symptoms - especially anxiety, fear, trauma, death.

[Maguru]

Through personal experience, I do not believe 'mental illness' comes from past lives. We are born with a clean slate and it is the experiences in this life that develops from childhood. Past lives theory gives you nothing to work with and no hope of recovery.
On the other hand, if the origins are in this life, there is something to work with and absolutely a chance of recovery. Taking responsibilty for our own minds is the first step.
Awareness brings the truth, not some mythical idea. It isn't easy. The truth can hurt but we are hurting because we don't know the truth. I have found during the most painful part of the process that my perception of self and others was way out.
It's a smack in the head to be so wrong, but I was.
Most of my severe symptoms have left purely through knowing and understanding the truth. No medication could do it. Only I could. It was the biggest challenge of my life. I did fight the devil (metaphorically speaking). He doesn't bother me now. I wish you well in your journey.

Originally Posted by ipo

From my experience, medications should not be stopped. As far as mental disorders, i have understood that it is due to karmic reasons from past lives. I have stopped my medications in belief that through awareness i can cure myself, big mistake! Huge one! I believe that the side effects of medications are also karmic, we have no option but to go thru it. Meanwhile, one may work on oneself to increase one's presence. It is not easy at all especially with an anti-psychotic. My uncle has schizophrenia, and it's much worse, he has to be on anti-psychotics for his life time which makes it almost impossible to be present.

[Old Soul]

Weather or not what they see or hear is real, it is real, because to their reality , it is.
Their reality is just not one of general concionseness, but none the less it is still real. I have had side effects of medication that caused me to be physcotic as a reult of cerebral swelling. What I felt, was very real to me at that time. If I had to live like that daily, I couldnt. I agree, they need to treat the problems in the mind, not just sedate. Mabey if doctors looked at the patient as thier reality, and tried to teach them to deal with thier reality, rather than trying to make them acceptable to our own, they would really be helping them.

Well said!!! there is much more that could be done for those who suffer a tormented mind :-)

[splash]

Originally Posted by lawnislandguy

I know someone who is afflicted with this serious mental condition. Does anyone think it would be dangerous to maybe seek guidance from a shaman or other spiritual source? The medications that he's on help subdue the condition, but I once read a book Enter the Circle about fifteen years ago, It dealt with similar subjects. I know the human mind is capable of tapping into greater knowledge than what we learn from books, why not try and treat a mental condition with a greater source other than super rich drug companies and institutional hospitals.
I would like to hear someone else's thoughts on this matter. Do you feel the same?
Thanks for listening Ryan

Hi Lawnislandguy,
i think seeking spiritual guidance is a good step (within a supportive environment, i'd suggest a Church with people that's experienced and understands the condition maybe) - perhaps let their pyschiatrist or psychologist know just so they're aware. The danger i guess would be if your friend becomes really involved to the point where he/she ignores daily living tasks or may refuse meds but still seems ill, then you may need to draw your friend more towards the physical/practical stuff. In any case, a combo of spiritual development, medical, physical are vital for everyone's health.
Good luck, Splash