self confidence and ego

[wolfgang]

Here's the rub: to be more enlightened or spiritual there's the idea that the ego take a back seat, right? So then how come people with low self esteme, who don't exercise their ego, aren't more spiritual because their ego isn't in effect?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I don't think low self-esteem means you aren't egoic. Identifying with a self - distinct from other selves - is ego regardless of whether you think highly or lowly of yourself.

Does that even make sense?!

A person with low self-esteem still has ego. There are differing definitions of ego which I guess could complicate this, but that's how I see it.

[Angela]

Yeah, if we're talking Tolle/Now, people with low self-esteem especially identify themselves with their ego and pain body, which feeds on the painful thoughts, which feeds the low self-estimation, which feeds the pain. Downward spiral.

[consciousnessrising]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Here's the rub: to be more enlightened or spiritual there's the idea that the ego take a back seat, right?
So then how come people with low self esteme, who don't exercise their ego, aren't more spiritual because their ego isn't in effect?

Not Right! As you become more connected to your spirit, your mind makes shifts in perception. You no longer attach to thoughts that support your ego.

When you transcend your mind your ego is replaced with consciousness, your thinking is replaced with awareness. You no longer have the need or desire to support your ego with thought.

The ego is in control until you transcend, so the ego is the source of the low self esteem!

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yeah, if we're talking Tolle/Now, people with low self-esteem especially identify themselves with their ego and pain body, which feeds on the painful thoughts, which feeds the low self-estimation, which feeds the pain. Downward spiral.

I forget this, thanks. I am one to quickly say taht someone who is down on them selves is actually being self absorbed - egotistical.

So then it's more something about confidence or feeling good about yourself. But then what kind of ego does someone with confidence and feel go about themselves have? Is that also an ego that needs tempering to approach enlightenment?

Often someone with confidence is said to have a good ego. I'm thinking there has to be redeaming parts of the ego that stick around even if we transcend or get enlightened. Or I have my definition of ego mixed up or it's a mixed up word to start with that has parts that interfere with spiritual growth and other "good" parts that actually help the process.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by consciousnessrising

Not Right! As you become more connected to your spirit, your mind makes shifts in perception. You no longer attach to thoughts that support your ego.

When you transcend your mind your ego is replaced with consciousness, your thinking is replaced with awareness. You no longer have the need or desire to support your ego with thought.

The ego is in control until you transcend, so the ego is the source of the low self esteem!

Do you see it as the ego also lets go of feeling "good" about it self while climbing the spiritual ladder?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I forget this, thanks. I am one to quickly say taht someone who is down on them selves is actually being self absorbed - egotistical.

Yup, but that's the last thing someone who's down on themselves wants to hear!

When people start talking about enlightenment, they sort of lose me, because everyone seems to have their own individual sense of what that word means.

I really like Tolle's description of awakening or enlightenment, though: Being fully present and accepting in the moment, being aware of the consciousness (the essential "me") that is aware that it is thinking, and not collapsing the two together. Well, he says it better than I do.

This deepest, timeless 'me' consciousness doesn't bother with high or low self-esteem, because when I'm able to be present and accepting, there is only Being. Have to keep reminding myself! That deepest, timeless 'me' is aware that there's no need to judge the trappings of this physical life -- there is no real "mine" -- only the experience of Now. So there's no need to judge myself or anyone else. Of course I have preferences! Boy, you should read Byron Katie talk about being accepting -- she goes wayyyy farther with accepting than I can easily get my head around!

[estrella]

Originally Posted by Angela

This deepest, timeless 'me' consciousness doesn't bother with high or low self-esteem, because when I'm able to be present and accepting, there is only Being. Have to keep reminding myself! That deepest, timeless 'me' is aware that there's no need to judge the trappings of this physical life -- there is no real "mine" -- only the experience of Now. So there's no need to judge myself or anyone else. Of course I have preferences! Boy, you should read Byron Katie talk about being accepting -- she goes wayyyy farther with accepting than I can easily get my head around!

Just to add. See also Hawkins' weak attractor patterns: all below courage. There is fear, guilt, and shame: all with low self-esteem. These are *not* natural to human beings, these come by [I[responding[/I] to outer situations, especially in early childhood, where humans are in defensiveness like animals. When at that time responding, they create resentment inside, which make weak attractor patterns possible.

But what I wanted to say is, the ego is necessary to communicate here in the material world. And if we are centered, we love our self also! We experience it not as *us-inside-of-it*, but as *having* it,and as we do, we are able to love that "material" ego. As we love it, we can forgive him any mistakes, not being resentful to ourselves. Thus, we forgive all of us around. Thus we connect more and more deeply with our Self. In loving. And this is IMHO the only way.

People with low self-esteem are resentful to themselves. This cannot lead to any higher consciousness.

But, the question may be: what comes first?? I think, experiencing unconditional love is, what can do that. I even think this is the real only way.
Sorry that's been a bit of rambling.

Btw, it is not about "killing" the ego, it's about loving it, and I guess (because I am not yet there, I can only guess), in loving, we are able to transcend (to go through) it, not bypass it. There's a difference.

[consciousnessrising]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Do you see it as the ego also lets go of feeling "good" about it self while climbing the spiritual ladder?

In my experience my ego never felt "good", only in control. When I transcended my thinking mind, my ego just disappeared from my life and I ended up "knowing what works and what doesn't".

My experience is not like "climbing the spiritual ladder" as much as it is letting go of the mental attachments that don't work.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yup, but that's the last thing someone who's down on themselves wants to hear!

When people start talking about enlightenment, they sort of lose me, because everyone seems to have their own individual sense of what that word means.

Although there is a common theme, I hope. Just the termology can get specific or dogmatic. I just think anything that moves you into more love, peace, acceptance and harmony is in the direction of enlightenment.

I really like Tolle's description of awakening or enlightenment, though: Being fully present and accepting in the moment, being aware of the consciousness (the essential "me") that is aware that it is thinking, and not collapsing the two together. Well, he says it better than I do.

Have to brush up on my Tolle. Which are the two things to not collapse together?

This deepest, timeless 'me' consciousness doesn't bother with high or low self-esteem, because when I'm able to be present and accepting, there is only Being. Have to keep reminding myself! That deepest, timeless 'me' is aware that there's no need to judge the trappings of this physical life -- there is no real "mine" -- only the experience of Now. So there's no need to judge myself or anyone else.

Right no. And being down in the dumps about yourself is also a judgement. And then to be aware or more enlightened would not depend on self-esteem? Or to become more aware will naturally expose the self esteem as unneeded self judgement.

Of course I have preferences! Boy, you should read Byron Katie talk about being accepting -- she goes wayyyy farther with accepting than I can easily get my head around!

Yeah, I just start Katie's "loving what is" and hit an assignment. "don't listen to any more until you do the work". So now I have to find that space to do the first exercise before I can go on. But, yeah, she also has some ideas about judgments. That the judgments we do have are where the work to be done is. And to not supress them but to write them down and do her steps of the work, that is turn it around and see the reflection of any judgment being made.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Although there is a common theme, I hope. Just the termology can get specific or dogmatic. I just think anything that moves you into more love, peace, acceptance and harmony is in the direction of enlightenment.

Yeah, sometimes people refer to enlightenment as something to aspire to someday, like some permanent state of blissful and guruhood, rather than something we can have right now, in this moment.

Have to brush up on my Tolle. Which are the two things to not collapse together?

1 = my thinking mind
2 = the consciousness that is aware of my thinking mind

It's worth re-reading The Power of Now, because just reading it can actually put you into the awareness of Being; aware that who you are is not your thoughts, who you are is not your job or anything you do or have or believe.

Right no. And being down in the dumps about yourself is also a judgement. And then to be aware or more enlightened would not depend on self-esteem? Or to become more aware will naturally expose the self esteem as unneeded self judgement.

That's how I think of it -- that works for me. Judging does not work so well for me (although evaluating does.)

I haven't read "Loving What Is", but I'll pick it up. The book I found the confronting stuff in was "Thousand Names for Joy".

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

If you are anything like me, I Need Your Love will blow your mind too. If you read Katie's books in the order they were written, I think you will just keep getting more and more "wow......"

I've noticed that when I begin to accept what is without judgement, the things I would normally judge as "bad" fall away anyway. I wish I could explain it better, but with acceptance everything just seems to fall into place. The moment I start arguing with reality I feel pain. Why do that to myself?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

If you are anything like me, I Need Your Love will blow your mind too. If you read Katie's books in the order they were written, I think you will just keep getting more and more "wow......"

I've noticed that when I begin to accept what is without judgement, the things I would normally judge as "bad" fall away anyway. I wish I could explain it better, but with acceptance everything just seems to fall into place. The moment I start arguing with reality I feel pain. Why do that to myself?

It reminds me of something I red about "finding yourself". (Buddhist Dali Lama stuff, I think) That illusions get exposed when you look for them and can't find anything. That's actually sounds like the judgements falling away like you describe. The "work" or inquery into the judgements exposes them as not really there and they "fall away".

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Angela

1 = my thinking mind
2 = the consciousness that is aware of my thinking mind

It's worth re-reading The Power of Now, because just reading it can actually put you into the awareness of Being; aware that who you are is not your thoughts, who you are is not your job or anything you do or have or believe.

I see those two as similar to
1 - ego and
2 - oneness.

And then I always wonder about Tolle when he had his awakening - didn't he still have a thinking mind and an ego, or some sense of self as an individual, that was percieving the awakening? Just saying that the thinking mind must still exist even though we may be identifying with the consciousness - both are always present and also kind of dependant on each other. To not have any sense of self (thinking mind) and be in oneness (the consciousness) would be rather ungrounded and spacey even. And we are all good and having plenty of thinking mind stuff with little oneness - and we suffer for that.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I know I am getting away from the original point of the thread, but I want to recommend you read Comfortable With Uncertainty and anything else by Pema Chodron as well.

They do "fall away" and what's left is just being. It's such an amazing feeling that I was always looking for. It's really simple and commonsense once you start to practice being present and you start to wonder why it took you so long to find it.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I know I am getting away from the original point of the thread, but I want to recommend you read Comfortable With Uncertainty and anything else by Pema Chodron as well.

They do "fall away" and what's left is just being. It's such an amazing feeling that I was always looking for. It's really simple and commonsense once you start to practice being present and you start to wonder why it took you so long to find it.

That sounds cool that you have found that "falling away". Thanks for the Pema Chodron tip - I have some of her stuff and love it. She summed up the ego as saying its addiction - all the clinging and wanting to be satisfied that the ego does, etc...

[Angela]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I see those two as similar to
1 - ego and
2 - oneness.

And then I always wonder about Tolle when he had his awakening - didn't he still have a thinking mind and an ego, or some sense of self as an individual, that was percieving the awakening? Just saying that the thinking mind must still exist even though we may be identifying with the consciousness - both are always present and also kind of dependant on each other. To not have any sense of self (thinking mind) and be in oneness (the consciousness) would be rather ungrounded and spacey even. And we are all good and having plenty of thinking mind stuff with little oneness - and we suffer for that.

Yes, those are other words for it. Tolle doesn't say one is good and the other is bad; he doesn't advocate killing or banishing the ego (thinking mind); he just describes the blinding effect it has on you when you identify with the thinking mind -- listening to your thoughts as if they were Who You Are.