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Welcome to the Personal Development for Smart People Forums, the place for lively, intelligent discussion of all personal growth issues -- physical, mental, financial, social, emotional, spiritual, and more. You're currently viewing as a guest, which gives you limited read-only access. By joining our free community, you'll be able to post your own messages, access many members-only features, see the new messages posted since your last visit, and of course remove this header message. Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please join today. If you arrived here from a search engine, you may want to explore the main site first, which includes hundreds of deep and insightful articles on a variety of personal development topics. |
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12-06-2007, 12:03 AM
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 Is The Catholic Church So Bad? Or any religion in fact. I mean, I know it's not perfect, and the people in it are often stuck at a low level. But let's look at it through this perspective : Imagine the best thing you can bring to other human beings. What would it be? Well, probably it would be YOUR MESSAGE. (For instance, for Steve, it would be : Grow and help people grow) Now, imagine you live at a time when there is no internet, and you try to figure out the way to bring your message to as many people as you can. Well you'd probably have a dozen of very good friends, and you would teach them your message. Then you would ask them to spread this message to other people, each time asking these people to spread this message again. That's ok, but you don't stop there, because you don't only want to help the current generation but also all the next generations. So a good thing to do that would be to build a structure that would allow some people to study carefully your message and carry on spreading it and keeping it alive after you death. The structure would be entirely buit around your message, that would be written in series of books, and would allow people to speak about it AND to act on it. Doesn't this looks like something familiar? Now the problem with every successful human structured organisation is that it can be taken over by people who want power, for their own interest and not to serve the message. But isn't that a risk worth taking? I'd like to have different opinions on that.      |
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12-06-2007, 12:41 AM
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| Hi, I agree you can not have a perfect church when the people who attend are not perfect, but i don't think people are looking for perfection when they go to church, i think they realise they themselves are not in fact perfect And i agree it is a an excellent way to get a message out to thousands of people!! I don't think the medium is the problem with most people but the message itself.. What I have a difficult time with (my own personal views aside for a moment), is when the message excludes all other messages, or churches that are enabling dependancy on a pulpit minister, legalism and sect like control over the people however a church which does non of the above, in my opinion is a healthy way to share and exchange your views :-) |
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12-06-2007, 02:03 AM
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| Catholicism certainly has some positive messages. I especially like the message of service to others. But personally I find there to be too much falsehood and too many disempowering beliefs mixed in with them to make the overall package a good choice. For example, the whole part about non-subscribers going to hell is way too phony and manipulative. That kind of thing does more harm than good. When an organization is willing to sacrifice truth for some physical world value, such as controlling people, you've got a serious problem.
__________________ Steve Pavlina www.StevePavlina.com (Twitter page, Facebook page) Get my new book Personal Development for Smart People (now available at Amazon.com) |
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12-06-2007, 08:04 PM
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| Organized religion promotes fear of hell, consciousness shows that hell is-- organized religion. |
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12-07-2007, 12:11 AM
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| Your comments make sense. I do think that the fear of hell thing is...stupid  I stay away from religion also, even though I was raised as a catholic. I must even admit that I learnt more outside of it than inside. However I still have a slight feeling that it can be a powerful tool for the greater good in the perspective of future human evolution. Most of the people on this forum don't need religion to get a spiritual dimension in their life. But there are millions of people who follow religions without necessarily having any spirituality. Don't you think that at some point, especially for those people, we'll have to blend spirituality and religion? How can this happen if we reject religions all together? Let me broaden the subject for a minute to other rotten (but successful) organisations : governments. Later on, if we want things to change for the better, the leaders will have to be wise and "enlightened". So at some point, higly conscious people may chose to integrate the current structures and get to the strategic positions to make things evolve. There is still the alternative option to start from scratch new political systems but it seems long and difficult. Isn't it faster to take over the current structures and use wisdom and discernement to get rid of the negative aspects of them? Coming back to the Catholic church exemple and to my point, my feeling is that it all started with very good intentions. The early christians were a bunch of very revolutionary but peaceful people. Later on it got taken over by controlling and power seeking people (I would date that from the day when Catholicism became the official religion of the Roman Empire). At first, it was a very good tool, but it got rotten at some point. Why not help it find back it's true purpose and identity instead of rejecting it completely? |
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12-07-2007, 02:49 AM
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| Catholicism itself contradicts itself more than any judeo-christian religion. The fact that it encourages people to pray to saints, and has large stained glass windows of saints itself breaks the idolatry commandment and the bible verse itself where Jesus says that you should pray to no one but him or God. Also it's a money making pyramid scheme. There is absolutely nothing in the bible about priests or pastors being restricted to marry, but the catholic church enacted this because if a priest were to marry and die, all of the money that is owed to him by the catholic church would go to his wife. But if the priest has no heir the money is simply recycled back into the church. So basically whenever you see those personal ads in the paper giving thanks to various saints because someone found their keys, they're pretty much breaking one of the ten commandments under the guise of faith. Catholicism is custom tailored religion where people feel they can be wiped clean from confessional or giving up an hour on sunday each week.
__________________ -Tonezone |
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12-07-2007, 05:36 AM
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| great stuff :) I am learning from all spiritual beliefs, science, religions and YOU! ... great stuff Thank you!Lot's Of Love, Rick www.eternalvibrations.com |
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12-07-2007, 05:48 AM
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But there are a lot of silly children's stories mixed in those church meetings, arks and talking snakes and eternal hellfire... I think people will eventually grow out of that. I don't mean to sound arrogant btw. I don't mean that all church goers are silly, thoughtless people, its just that it is all they've known of the fulfillment of meaning in their lives. Last edited by Mr.Mustache : 12-07-2007 at 05:52 AM. |
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12-07-2007, 08:25 AM
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| Never take a religion whole. Every religion has both good and bad parts. Faith requires that you accept the bad parts with the good, no matter how lopsided the scales are; but reason points out that you can copy the good without necessarily inviting in the bad.
__________________ "I read, I interpret, I think, I criticize, I oppose, I listen, I write, I question, I reply, I quote, I tell, I name, I discuss, I interpolate..., I learn, I teach, I live, therefore I am." -- Marc-Alain Ouaknin, "Mysteries of the Kabbalah", p383. Favorite Essays I Wrote: love, identity & growth, economics, education, equality, definitions. Recent Books I liked: Anansi Boys, Fly By Night, Hyperion. |
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12-07-2007, 06:18 PM
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| I agree that there are a lot of problems with catholicism, and also with the way Christianity is often represented. First of all I think the answer to these problems lie with understanding the man who started the whole thing: Jesus. Jesus did say that he is the only way to heaven, but I think it makes complete sense to say that if you help those around you, care for the sick, feed the hungry, are compassionate, etc. then you accept what Christ stood for, his values, and thus you accept him. Jesus went around and helped people all day long, that's what he did and that's what we are supposed to do. I recognize that Jesus talked about hell more than any other person in the bible, but pay attention to whom he talks about hell. Does he talk about hell to the prostitutes and tax collectors? No! He talks about hell to the high priests and pharisees, the ones who represented organized religion at the time! Jesus hated their phoniness. Jesus is against those who have pride and think themselves better than everybody else. So yea, some food for thought |
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12-07-2007, 06:43 PM
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| I can enjoy various churches for their social aspects, but that's it. I used to really try to take on other people's belief systems, but it just doesn't seem to work for me, and I no longer need it to. Adjusting one's views as one gets to know the world better via experience seems to be more reliable (and fun!). I tend to go to whatever church has people at it that I'd like to know better. On Thursdays I'll go to a Unitarian Universalist student gathering on campus (they have great parties), then we go have dinner with Hare Krishnas at the edge of campus. On Friday I may go to Chabad, hanging out with a fun bunch of Jewish people drinking various spiked drinks. Then on Sunday I may go to a local United Methodist church to get closer to the wealthy white people in the area, the movers and shakers, followed by service at the local African Episcopal Methodist church to build a better connection with local black people. In many areas church is a great way to become integrated into the local community, and for that I value it. Were I to move to a predominantly Catholic area, I'd check out the Catholic churches there. Buddhist area (such as Thailand)? The same thing. I don't feel threatened by people having a variety of beliefs, nor do I feel a need to point out any problems in their beliefs to them. It can be fun to irreverently discuss belief systems with friends, but I don't need to always do so. Lately I've largely stuck with the UU group mentioned above, as I identify better with them than any of the others, and they provide more than enough social stimulation. Last edited by openeyes : 12-07-2007 at 06:48 PM. |
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12-08-2007, 06:00 AM
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Stuck at a low level... people who believe in Jesus? How do you figure - better yet. Who is at a higher level? I want some names of who is at a higher level than me. Let's do some old-fashioned judging of our fellow men and women  |
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12-08-2007, 08:42 AM
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| Judge people, is that what we are doing? If I were to give myself over to an two thousand year old religion I would certainly research it. And the catholic religion comes up very short in the moral and spiritual stakes when that is done. Popes that have prostitutes dwelling in the vatican{Constantine} the sack of Jerusalem where one scribe was surprised that he found in streets that the gutters ran rich with blood a living creature {a cat}, and numerous cases of vice and paedophilia and child molestation. If people are so uninformed today that they will give themselves over wholly to anything that takes them then I say good luck you fool.
__________________ "Everybody's a genius until they open their mouth"  |
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12-08-2007, 01:14 PM
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2) I am not catholic, however how is praying with a priest in confession any different than praying with a friend or neighbor or munk or cult leader that is not idolitry, idolitry is anything that takes place inwardly above your love for God, anything that pushes God from the throne of the heart and is replaced with ............... fill in the blank.... it is all about a balance and in terms of balance.........pedofiles are not subject to just religion ie) lets say the catholic church for the sake of you using the catholic church as a reference it is a known fact that pedofiles are mostly found on the "WWW" the internet is an excellent "house" for the pedofile to act.... maybe the catholic church is a convenient scape goat too:-)) |
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12-08-2007, 06:07 PM
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| I am absolutely fascinated with the Catholic church, it's ancient writings and teachings, historical events, etc. But I don't belong as a member nor worship their tenets. In fact, I have evolved past the need to have a middleman help me touch the spirit of God. In some ways, I always have been past that. For the longest time, as a young person, I just didn't know you were allowed to skip the middleman or I would have jumped off the caravan long ago. I think the world has passed Catholicism by and they just don't know it yet. Or they know, but are fighting a losing battle to regain the splendor they once had, rather than evolve into what our world needs now. Perhaps they cannot evolve. Ever. Owing to the bed they made, so to speak. As far as their own "sins," the gravest error they have ever made was to de-humanize themselves and try to pass themselves off as pseudo-gods. Olden days stuff. I'm sure it has served a purpose at some point but as they are finding out, it's an impossible standard to live by. As well as a completely unneccesary standard. Jennifer |
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12-08-2007, 06:14 PM
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| They're still at it. It's not the same as selling indulgences, but... The Popemeister has decreed that "special indulgences" which apparently reduce one's time in Purgatory will be granted to those Catholics that visit the apparently-miraculous fountain at Lourdes, France. BBC NEWS | Europe | Pope approves Lourdes indulgences
__________________ LTPP |
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12-08-2007, 07:38 PM
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__________________ "Everybody's a genius until they open their mouth" |
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12-08-2007, 07:58 PM
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__________________ "I read, I interpret, I think, I criticize, I oppose, I listen, I write, I question, I reply, I quote, I tell, I name, I discuss, I interpolate..., I learn, I teach, I live, therefore I am." -- Marc-Alain Ouaknin, "Mysteries of the Kabbalah", p383. Favorite Essays I Wrote: love, identity & growth, economics, education, equality, definitions. Recent Books I liked: Anansi Boys, Fly By Night, Hyperion. |
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12-08-2007, 10:46 PM
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yes there are catholic priests who are pedofiles! i did not* say ignore that, but i also believe there are false reports where some of it is fabricated too , simply because it is relgion and the catholic church is such a big religion that often the stories are fabricated...........but NOT that there is not pedifiles in catholic religion |
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12-08-2007, 10:49 PM
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12-08-2007, 11:42 PM
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| I'll start taking them seriously when they no longer have/hide behind a "Get Out of Historical Atrocities FREE!!" pass. The CC has at times acted as one of the most corrupt institutions on the planet, this can easily be verified via historical study, and yet many people still give them all the credibility in the world as a "divine" institution. The usual cop out answers such as "well that was just misguided PEOPLE screwing things up, not Catholicism!" are about all you ever get. Now imagine if someone were to say "National Socialism wasn't all that bad, it was just Hitler who messed it up- he wasn't a TRUE National Socialist! Don't blame the system!". Would they be taken seriously, or seen as uneducated/crazy? To their credit, they did recently pardon the Knights Templar of the heresy charges against them. I do have a feeling though that the KT, which doesn't exist anymore and most of whom were burned to death over the heresy charge around 800 yrs ago, were probably turning in their graves at this "pardon". I guess apologies are only for Galileo, again around 500 yrs past time. |
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12-09-2007, 01:31 AM
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