Karmic Debt

[TheColonel]

Do you believe in it?

How do you understand it?

If you accept it, what are your plans to overcome it?

[Antarananda]

The principle of Karma is a lot more complex than most people make it out to be ("good karma"/"bad karma"). Karma has three components. Sanchita (accumulated works), Prarabdha (fructifying works) and Kriyamana or Agami (current works).

Swami Sivananda has described it well:

"Sanchita is all the accumulated Karmas of the past. Part of it is seen in the character of man, in his tendencies and aptitudes, capacities, inclinations and desires, etc.

Prarabdha is that portion of the past Karma which is responsible for the present body. That portion of the Sanchita Karma which influences human life in the present incarnation is called Prarabdha. It is ripe for reaping. It cannot be avoided or changed. It is only exhausted by being experienced. You pay your past debts. Prarabdha Karma is that which has begun and is actually bearing fruit. It is selected out of the mass of the Sanchita Karma.

Kriyamana is that Karma which is now being made for the future. It is also called Agami or Vartamana."

According to Sanatana Dharma (commonly called Hinduism), effects of Karma can be transcended by realization of our true nature as Brahman, or the changeless, timeless principle (aka "God", or the Source of life). Once realization (enlightenment) happens, all karmas fail to bind one to the cycle of rebirth.

What many IMers fail to realize in their over-simplification of the theory of LoA is that they already have set into motion karmas from previous lifetimes which must bear fruit. Every hour we perform actions, and this includes thoughts, which send out energy to the universe, and create fresh karma for ourselves.

So, not everyone who creates an intent will manifest it; the fructifying effects will depend on karmic seeds already sown, which could support or oppose all present effort. In fact, even the desire to manifest greater wealth etc could create much new karma, so while it appears fulfilling in the short term, it only ties us down more tightly to the wheel of life.

Karmic debt certainly does exist. We are all in a state of debt to various degrees to one another, and will encounter people in our lives with whom there is a karmic transaction to carry out, whether parents, friends or enemies.

Read the book Aghora III: The Law of Karma by Robert Svoboda; it's excellent.

[Mitalp]

Originally Posted by Antarananda

The principle of Karma is a lot more complex than most people make it out to be ("good karma"/"bad karma"). Karma has three components. Sanchita (accumulated works), Prarabdha (fructifying works) and Kriyamana or Agami (current works).

Swami Sivananda has described it well:

"Sanchita is all the accumulated Karmas of the past. Part of it is seen in the character of man, in his tendencies and aptitudes, capacities, inclinations and desires, etc.

Prarabdha is that portion of the past Karma which is responsible for the present body. That portion of the Sanchita Karma which influences human life in the present incarnation is called Prarabdha. It is ripe for reaping. It cannot be avoided or changed. It is only exhausted by being experienced. You pay your past debts. Prarabdha Karma is that which has begun and is actually bearing fruit. It is selected out of the mass of the Sanchita Karma.

Kriyamana is that Karma which is now being made for the future. It is also called Agami or Vartamana."

According to Sanatana Dharma (commonly called Hinduism), effects of Karma can be transcended by realization of our true nature as Brahman, or the changeless, timeless principle (aka "God", or the Source of life). Once realization (enlightenment) happens, all karmas fail to bind one to the cycle of rebirth.

What many IMers fail to realize in their over-simplification of the theory of LoA is that they already have set into motion karmas from previous lifetimes which must bear fruit. Every hour we perform actions, and this includes thoughts, which send out energy to the universe, and create fresh karma for ourselves.

So, not everyone who creates an intent will manifest it; the fructifying effects will depend on karmic seeds already sown, which could support or oppose all present effort. In fact, even the desire to manifest greater wealth etc could create much new karma, so while it appears fulfilling in the short term, it only ties us down more tightly to the wheel of life.

Karmic debt certainly does exist. We are all in a state of debt to various degrees to one another, and will encounter people in our lives with whom there is a karmic transaction to carry out, whether parents, friends or enemies.

Read the book Aghora III: The Law of Karma by Robert Svoboda; it's excellent.

Great insight! Is there anyway to overcome the karma we put forth in another lifetime?

[TheColonel]

What a thorough response. Thank you.

[Antarananda]

Originally Posted by Mitalp

Great insight! Is there anyway to overcome the karma we put forth in another lifetime?

If the Karma from previous lifetimes is still a potentiality (Sanchita), but has not been expressed, exercising awareness in thought word and deed can help loosen the bonds of karma.

Meditation and surrender to Existence (the real meaning of "Thy will be done") also allows us to be free from subtle impressions in the mind (called samskaras) which otherwise drive us to unconscious behavior.

We still exercise conscious choice with awareness, of course, but recognize more and more that there is no such thing as free will. We are all functioning from a genetic-environmentally programmed mind-body mechanism. While we can alter our paths somewhat, ultimately it is only grace which can remove effects of strong Karma, and bring about enlightenment, when the time is right. That is what explains miraculous healings etc. It happens through grace, and is a signal of receptivity to pure consciousness.

The link in my post above explains it very well.

[Mitalp]

Originally Posted by Antarananda

If the Karma from previous lifetimes is still a potentiality (Sanchita), but has not been expressed, exercising awareness in thought word and deed can help loosen the bonds of karma.

Meditation and surrender to Existence (the real meaning of "Thy will be done") also allows us to be free from subtle impressions in the mind (called samskaras) which otherwise drive us to unconscious behavior.

We still exercise conscious choice with awareness, of course, but recognize more and more that there is no such thing as free will. We are all functioning from a genetic-environmentally programmed mind-body mechanism. While we can alter our paths somewhat, ultimately it is only grace which can remove effects of strong Karma, and bring about enlightenment, when the time is right. That is what explains miraculous healings etc. It happens through grace, and is a signal of receptivity to pure consciousness.

The link in my post above explains it very well.

Thanks! You def. know what your talking about. I'll def. give that link a look.

[magickmystik]

I copy this from Don Miguel Ruiz book 'The Art of Relationship'

""" Create an act of power and forgive yourself for everything you have done in your whole life. And if you believe in past lives, forgive everything you believe you did in all of your past lives. The concept of karma is true only because we believe it is true. Because of our beliefs about being good and bad, we feel ashamed about what we believe is bad. We find ourselves guilty, we believe we deserve to be punished, and we punish ourselves. We have the belief that what we create is so dirty that it needs to be cleaned. And just because you believe it, then, "Thy will be done." It is real for you. You create your karma, and you have to pay for it. That is how powerful you are. To break old karma is simple. You just stop that belief by refusing to believe it, and the karma is gone. You don't need to suffer, you don't need to pay anything; it is over. If you can forgive yourself, the karma is gone just like that. From this point on, you can start all over again. Then life becomes easy, because forgiveness is the only way to clean the emotional wounds. Forgiveness is the only way to heal them.
Once we have cleaned the wounds, we are going to use a powerful medicine to accelerate the process of healing. Of course, the medicine also comes from the same great Master: It is Love. Love is the medicine that accelerates the process of healing. There is no other medicine but unconditional love. Not: I love you or I love myself if. There is no if. There is no justification. There is no explanation. It is just to love. Love yourself, love your neighbor, and love your enemies. This is simple, common sense, but we cannot love others until we love ourselves. That is why we must begin with self-love."""

so my question is: is it that simple?

[Antarananda]

Originally Posted by magickmystik

so my question is: is it that simple?

Is it that simple? Yes and no

What Ruiz explains is the truth, but to realize the truth one must transcend all duality and be established in non-dual awareness. My own Master never pays much importance to karma in his own talks, because to focus too much on karma is to continue to remain bound by the illusion that we are trapped in the relative plane, with dualities of pleasure and pain, good and bad. What Ruiz has described is a state we can all attain to by transcending the mind, not by continuing to be a slave to it and our desires, no matter how noble. This does mean surrendering all personal power to what is, to Existence, or God, or whatever name you wish to call it.

When we are able to accept all that comes our way without judgment or preference, then karma fails to bind us, and we are free. That is the state of bliss that all sages have praised as the summum bonum, the peak of human realization. The Ocean has ceased to identify itself with the little wave. It does not mean that you will no more encounter effects of karma that has already been put into motion, such as physical disease, but one has attained the eternal realization of oneself as the eternal substratum of all life, and so while the body may feel pain, there is no more suffering in the mind. However, as long as one remains identified with the relative realm, where desires bind us and cause us to wish things different from as they are in our lives, the Law of Karma strongly holds true.

[Reyv]

I don't personally believe in Karma. I haven't bothered to really understand it either, but from the superficial understanding I do have of it, I just can't agree.

magickmystik's quote made very much sense to me, and is exactly what I was thinking as well. If you believe in Karma, then it's true for you. I would much rather choose to do things out of unconditional love, rather than out of guilt of past mistakes.

Last time I checked, Guilt was at the very bottom of the emotional chain, the exact opposite of our natural state of Joy and Love.

How do I know our natural state is Love? Let me put it this way: Is unconditional love not a trait generally ascribed to enlightened beings? And what is enlightenment other than a realization of our true nature?

That given, I just can't make the connection between a deity whose true nature is unconditional love, and the idea of controlling human behaviour through fear and guilt (aka Karma), the exact opposite of said love.


And another thing, if we're stuck inside a cycle of forced rebirth (unless I misunderstood this), then just how do you explain the fact that psychics can contact deceased relatives? I kind of doubt said relatives had achieved enlightenment in their lifetimes.

Disclaimer: I don't really know what I'm talking about, so if I've seriously misrepresented the notion of Karma, then please don't flame me.

[Antarananda]

Karma has nothing to do with guilt. You plant a seed, it sprouts into a tree. That's it. See the Wikipedia entry for a comprehensive explanation which goes beyond the New-Agey "good karma / bad karma" oversimplification.

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by Antarananda

Is it that simple? Yes and no

What Ruiz explains is the truth, but to realize the truth one must transcend all duality and be established in non-dual awareness. My own Master never pays much importance to karma in his own talks, because to focus too much on karma is to continue to remain bound by the illusion that we are trapped in the relative plane, with dualities of pleasure and pain, good and bad. What Ruiz has described is a state we can all attain to by transcending the mind, not by continuing to be a slave to it and our desires, no matter how noble. This does mean surrendering all personal power to what is, to Existence, or God, or whatever name you wish to call it.

When we are able to accept all that comes our way without judgment or preference, then karma fails to bind us, and we are free. That is the state of bliss that all sages have praised as the summum bonum, the peak of human realization. The Ocean has ceased to identify itself with the little wave. It does not mean that you will no more encounter effects of karma that has already been put into motion, such as physical disease, but one has attained the eternal realization of oneself as the eternal substratum of all life, and so while the body may feel pain, there is no more suffering in the mind. However, as long as one remains identified with the relative realm, where desires bind us and cause us to wish things different from as they are in our lives, the Law of Karma strongly holds true.

Have you awoken? I ask this because you talk sorta like you have and I NEED to talk to someone who has awoken because I am buddhist and I have seen my karma physically and I have seen the way it shapes my life and I have physically began to awaken to the true nature of everything where I feel connected to everything and feel it physically as a part of me, this has caused me to love everyone because they are me and I am them but I still want to foster love throughtout my friends and the world, I am striving to create peace far and wide. The problem is when I begin to awaken it is a bit physically painful and stimulus overload and I try to analyze the situation and I begin to be fearful of death and as my vision begins to pan out and I begin to see more and more of "the picture" I get scared and pull myself back to my body. My heart at this point is racing and I am cold and shaking. This has happened 15+ times. Anyways to the point of karma I believe in it. I also believe it can be overcame by fostering love and helping anyone anytime. I don't do this because I feel guilty I do this because I genuienly love everyone and I want them all to be happy.

[Antarananda]

@ DoAnyOfYouExist

No, I have not, although I've had a few satoris. But I've gotten intellectual clarity from my meditation practice. I've sent you a PM.

[MartialDev]

Originally Posted by magickmystik

The concept of karma is true only because we believe it is true....
so my question is: is it that simple?

If you throw a rock and believe it will never land, what happens?

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by MartialDev

If you throw a rock and believe it will never land, what happens?

You would have to believe that there is no gravity and I mean REALLY believe it. 100% belief, no doubt, no skepticism. Find me a man who believes this and you will find a man who can throw a rock and have it never land, but how would he stay grounded?

[AdamKayce]

Not being a buddhist, I can't comment on the karma issue... Sufism and Taoism (my background) don't get into karma in quite the same way, as I understand it.

But, as a potential reference for you, I read The Diamond Cutter by Geshe Michael Roach, and he's got a very interesting description of karma.

[MartialDev]

Originally Posted by DoAnyOfYouExist

You would have to believe that there is no gravity and I mean REALLY believe it. 100% belief, no doubt, no skepticism. Find me a man who believes this and you will find a man who can throw a rock and have it never land, but how would he stay grounded?

Asylums are full of people like this!

Of course, you can claim they don't REALLY believe it--that is, if you don't want to believe that people with such beliefs are deluded. Or cannot accept it. As you like.

[magickmystik]

Find a nice website about karma

articles on karma

enjoy

[tropicality]

There is no karma, only the karma you create in YOUR MIND... the LoA will make it true if you believe in karma.

[Cron]

What comes around goes around....always.....even if you aren't there to see it.

No matter where you are, you can improve things with good intentions and good deeds........nothing is lost.