Childbirth and Enlightenment

[Cantando]

Enlightenment is a bit like childbirth - you just want to get that thing out of you, but it's so painful!

Isn't there a biblical quotation about creation being like one, giant, cosmic groan of childbirth?
It is reflected in each one of us, in our existential angst, the primal scream. It is there every morning when you wake up: "Why am I? Why am I conscious? Why aren't I not conscious?". You can never escape it.

If we face and accept the pain, it can be resolved, and then enlightenment may occur and one will be born anew.

Unfortunately, so many of us are ignorant of this, or refuse to accept it, running and hiding from it, in the pursuit of trivial and transient pleasures.

This concept is expounded by the Buddha in the first Noble Truth and continues into Christianity with the great symbology of the Agony in the Garden, the Crucifixion and the teaching that we all have our cross to bear.

The pursuit of pleasure is, ultimately, worthless. Of much greater significance, power and magnitude in the human psyche/soul is the sense of nobility, dignity and worthiness, in being able to face, withstand and resolve adversity and suffering. This is real self-acceptance, not telling yourself how happy and lovely you are and how marvellous your manifestations are.

We are tested by fire - do you have the courage to walk through it? If you don't, you will never find enlightenment. You will go round in circles thinking you can achieve happiness through the enjoyment of life's pleasures. Like a child with a toy, you soon tire of it and look for something else to play with.

Just my current view. Don't take it too seriously!

[Old Soul]

Just my current view. Don't take it too seriously!

why not take it seriously!!! It is brilliant:-)) pass the flame!....

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Enlightenment is a bit like childbirth - you just want to get that thing out of you, but it's so painful!

Isn't there a biblical quotation about creation being like one, giant, cosmic groan of childbirth?
It is reflected in each one of us, in our existential angst, the primal scream. It is there every morning when you wake up: "Why am I? Why am I conscious? Why aren't I not conscious?". You can never escape it.

If we face and accept the pain, it can be resolved, and then enlightenment may occur and one will be born anew.

Unfortunately, so many of us are ignorant of this, or refuse to accept it, running and hiding from it, in the pursuit of trivial and transient pleasures.

This concept is expounded by the Buddha in the first Noble Truth and continues into Christianity with the great symbology of the Agony in the Garden, the Crucifixion and the teaching that we all have our cross to bear.

The pursuit of pleasure is, ultimately, worthless. Of much greater significance, power and magnitude in the human psyche/soul is the sense of nobility, dignity and worthiness, in being able to face, withstand and resolve adversity and suffering. This is real self-acceptance, not telling yourself how happy and lovely you are and how marvellous your manifestations are.

We are tested by fire - do you have the courage to walk through it? If you don't, you will never find enlightenment. You will go round in circles thinking you can achieve happiness through the enjoyment of life's pleasures. Like a child with a toy, you soon tire of it and look for something else to play with.

Just my current view. Don't take it too seriously!

Why must you hurt yourself? Why do you feel like you need to endure something terrible for your existence to bear any fruit? Haven't you endured enough suffering already?

I say, cast away your desire to pursue happiness. You already know it's pointless. You said so yourself. Does your ego need to wear a badge of honor proving that you suffered to become enlightened? If you really want to get to the other side of the fire, then go through it. When you get to the other side you'll see that enlightenment is actually on the side you came from, so you'll cross back. Then you'll look over and see it on the other side again. How many times are you going to partake in this wild goose chase?

You won't achieve enlightenment. You will go round in circles thinking you can achieve happiness through enlightenment. Whatever you call your object of pursuit, you're still pursuing it. You're still being driven by your wants and desires. Exactly whose wants and desires are you trying to fulfill? Don't waste your time playing games with fire, just sit down, extinguish your ego, and realize your true nature.

[Holistic Star]

Also childbirth doesn't have to be painful!

Don't believe me - check out Hypnobirthing Natural Childbirth Education

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

.. just sit down, extinguish your ego, and realize your true nature.

That sound like a good way of achieving enlightenment to me!
So, how exactly would you extinguish your ego and realize your true nature?
I can understand the sitting down bit OK.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

Also childbirth doesn't have to be painful!

Don't believe me - check out Hypnobirthing Natural Childbirth Education

You did realize that I was using childbirth as an analogy? Didn't you???

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by Cantando

That sound like a good way of achieving enlightenment to me!
So, how exactly would you extinguish your ego and realize your true nature?
I can understand the sitting down bit OK.

More importantly, why would you need to extinguish something that's merely an illusion? Also, why try to "realize" or "make real" something that is innate in you?

Just sit down.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

More importantly, why would you need to extinguish something that's merely an illusion? Also, why try to "realize" or "make real" something that is innate in you?

Just sit down.

More importantly, why don't you answer the question?

You said, "just sit down, extinguish your ego, and realize your true nature", like it's 3 easy steps: A, B, C.
I've sat down. Now tell me, how do you extinguish your ego and realize your true nature? I'm assuming that you have already done this yourself. Is that correct?

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Cantando

That sound like a good way of achieving enlightenment to me!
So, how exactly would you extinguish your ego and realize your true nature?
I can understand the sitting down bit OK.

The best part is the balance.

Part god, part human avatar/ego, they are both wonderful.

To be able to know your creative power and to witness it's rendered form.

The ultimate best of both worlds.

Max

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by Cantando

More importantly, why don't you answer the question?

You said, "just sit down, extinguish your ego, and realize your true nature", like it's 3 easy steps: A, B, C.
I've sat down. Now tell me, how do you extinguish your ego and realize your true nature? I'm assuming that you have already done this yourself. Is that correct?

I haven't done a single thing.

What do you want me to do? Give you a how-to list of what exactly needs to be done to "extinguish your ego" and "realize your true nature?"

You don't need to "do" anything, it's all in your perception. I'm assuming you know the theory behind the self being an illusion and your "true nature" being an enlightened state?

Chances are you're still clinging onto the illusion. Enlightenment isn't about gaining some sort of higher level consciousness and becoming better than other people. It's only about getting rid of things that cloud your perception of the truth and the world. The funny thing is, the thing you have to get rid of isn't real in the first place. You can't do anything to get rid of it because technically you don't have it. Truly seeing through the illusion is all you need to do.

If you know about all of that stuff, there must be something hindering you. Maybe something like, it is your self/ego that wants to become better by attaining enlightenment, and it can go around saying the self is an illusion but to really realize that is hard, because getting rid of itself to achieve the goal of making itself better doesn't make sense.

My answer to your question is that if you were really just sitting, nothing else would need to be done. Have you ever heard the story of the Zen monk who asked his teacher what enlightenment was? The teacher said to him, "When hungry, eat. When tired, sleep."

You're basically asking me "Hey, could you give me directions to my current position?" then when I say "Sorry, you don't have to do anything to get to where you want to be, you just have to realize that you are already standing at your destination," you just ask me again, "Yeah but that doesn't tell me how to get there, does it?"

If you don't want to wake up to the truth, then don't. Nothing in the world is hidden. What would you have me say?

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

I haven't done a single thing.

What do you want me to do? Give you a how-to list of what exactly needs to be done to "extinguish your ego" and "realize your true nature?"

You don't need to "do" anything, it's all in your perception. I'm assuming you know the theory behind the self being an illusion and your "true nature" being an enlightened state?

Chances are you're still clinging onto the illusion. Enlightenment isn't about gaining some sort of higher level consciousness and becoming better than other people. It's only about getting rid of things that cloud your perception of the truth and the world. The funny thing is, the thing you have to get rid of isn't real in the first place. You can't do anything to get rid of it because technically you don't have it. Truly seeing through the illusion is all you need to do.

If you know about all of that stuff, there must be something hindering you. Maybe something like, it is your self/ego that wants to become better by attaining enlightenment, and it can go around saying the self is an illusion but to really realize that is hard, because getting rid of itself to achieve the goal of making itself better doesn't make sense.

My answer to your question is that if you were really just sitting, nothing else would need to be done. Have you ever heard the story of the Zen monk who asked his teacher what enlightenment was? The teacher said to him, "When hungry, eat. When tired, sleep."

You're basically asking me "Hey, could you give me directions to my current position?" then when I say "Sorry, you don't have to do anything to get to where you want to be, you just have to realize that you are already standing at your destination," you just ask me again, "Yeah but that doesn't tell me how to get there, does it?"

If you don't want to wake up to the truth, then don't. Nothing in the world is hidden. What would you have me say?

When something isn't working we think we need to be enlightened at the expense of the ego, but the ego is just as important as the energy being, the energy being created the ego and cares for it very much, it's the balance never at the expense of either entity that is the important part.

People who think that stripping the ego of it's requirements (material possessions) will lead to enlightenment are actually afraid of their ego and that makes no sense. A conscious energy being would never deny it's own creation once self aware. That's why mystics sitting around in bedsheets are no more enlightened than anyone else and most speak in riddles to allude to enlightenment. They are almost as bad as their fear.

Max

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

IYou're basically asking me "Hey, could you give me directions to my current position?" then when I say "Sorry, you don't have to do anything to get to where you want to be, you just have to realize that you are already standing at your destination," you just ask me again, "Yeah but that doesn't tell me how to get there, does it?"

If you don't want to wake up to the truth, then don't. Nothing in the world is hidden. What would you have me say?

I don't really want any directions from you, because, from the tone of your post, you have no sincere ones to give.

You were telling me to do those 3 things? Why? You tell me to do something without explaining why, or whether you have accomplished those things yourself. You couldn't answer a straight forward question

My OP obviously stirred up some kind of negative reaction in you. I suggest you search yourself for the root cause of it.

So, let's leave it there.

Pax.

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by Cantando

I don't really want any directions from you, because, from the tone of your post, you have no sincere ones to give.

You were telling me to do those 3 things? Why? You tell me to do something without explaining why, or whether you have accomplished those things yourself. You couldn't answer a straight forward question

My OP obviously stirred up some kind of negative reaction in you. I suggest you search yourself for the root cause of it.

So, let's leave it there.

Pax.

I gave you the sincerest directions I could. I assumed since your original post was about enlightenment that you knew about the self being a cause of suffering. I still believe you know about that, because of your mention of the noble truths.

I don't believe that you don't know why the ego is something that should be extinguished. If you honestly don't know why doing that would be better than not doing it, then ask and I'll tell you.

"Extinguish the ego"/"realize your true nature" are the same thing. The ego is the thing that gets in the way of us seeing the reality of things, so getting rid of it is equal to realizing your true nature. Why is it important to you whether I've done these things or not? It doesn't matter who I am, I could be a Zen Master, I could be a Christian, I could be a 12 year old girl... Does any one of those deserve to be listened to more than the others? Would it make you feel better if I told you I had done those things and was enlightened? For all you know, I could be lying about it. You wouldn't be able to trust me, so I don't think it really makes a difference what I tell you about myself.

Your OP did create some negative feelings in me. I don't think the idea of a person having to "walk through fire," so to speak, to become enlightened, is very helpful. All it's doing is encouraging suffering through misunderstanding (not yours, but somebody reading and misunderstanding what you've said). I can see that what you were saying is that our lives in general are the suffering that must be endured, but people might take that as they have to endure the suffering to become enlightened, when it's more like we are born into a world of suffering and it is up to us when we are relieved of that suffering. There isn't a certain amount that needs to be endured and endurance is not a major issue or a requirement. If somebody is searching for relief from suffering, they shouldn't be told that they need to suffer to get it.

I'm not against your view, since it's correct. I'm just not too sure about how useful it is. Then again, it's not very useful to simply tell somebody to "extinguish their ego" either... But that's what happens when you try to explain something that words can't explain.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

I gave you the sincerest directions I could. I assumed since your original post was about enlightenment that you knew about the self being a cause of suffering. I still believe you know about that, because of your mention of the noble truths.

I don't believe that you don't know why the ego is something that should be extinguished. If you honestly don't know why doing that would be better than not doing it, then ask and I'll tell you.

You are right - I do know what the ego is, and its significance. I questioned you, since your initial response seemed glib and not backed up. I wanted to see if you truthfully understood and meant what you were saying, and not just quoting stuff because you thought it sounded good.
Obviously, you have now displayed that you do know and understand a lot.

Yes, saying being tested by fire could have given out the wrong signals. Perhaps, I should have expounded more, but I didn't want the post to go on too long.

As you know, the first Noble Truth says that suffering exists. We can label it reality or illusion, it doesn't matter. It's there, it persists and we experience it. I agree with the Buddhist and Christian concepts that suffering can be transcended, but only if we confront it, go into it and try to understand its true nature. The point of my post (OK, it may not be helpful or useful to many) was that no one escapes suffering, and I mean no one. And the reason is, in my current thinking, is because at the core of all external suffering (grieving over a lost one, fear, pain, shame, anger, depression, etc), is the basic, existential angst, each and every one of us is born with.

A lot of us automaticall veer away from the least hint of suffering as we believe it is a negative, detrimental state. We seek palliatives and quick fixes - anything rather than face that inner angst. OK, it's not always immediately present and I'm not saying we should be going around feeling miserable all day. What I am saying is that there are a lot of spiritual quick-fixes on the market today which claim to solve all our problems. They don't. They may give some temporary relief (which is better than nothing, I suppose), but they don't get to the root cause. They only treat the symptoms. I could say it would be a bit like taking a couple of paracetamol for a migraine attact. You may feel OK for a while, but the migraine keeps coming back. Surely, it's best to try and get to the root cause of it?

Transcending the suffering (in whatever form it is presented to us) ennobles and enriches us. Even after the Buddha was enlightened, it didn't mean he ceased to experience suffering. He did continue to experience it - but in a completely different way.

[Terumoto]

Ah OK, I see where you were coming from now. The suffering is there, and to overcome it we need to face it rather than distract ourselves from it. Facing it usually causes a whole lot more suffering, but that is what allows us to transcend it. I guess I just misinterpreted your OP.

I definately agree with you. It's almost as if that suffering is worse than death. It is kind of a mental death, since you have to see through your ego, effectively killing it. Oh well... Even Jesus had to die and endure hell for a couple of days before he went back to his eternal life in Heaven. -_-

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

Facing it usually causes a whole lot more suffering, but that is what allows us to transcend it.

Yes, possibly. I think my analogy begins to break down there.
Obviously, if you are in acute pain, and it is stopping you from living normally, you should seek medical help.

If we accept there is this existential, spiritual angst/pain deep down in each of us, however, then what?

A lot of us think that whatever ails us is a result of something that has happened in our experience - you lose you job, your girlfriend, your house, whatever, so you feel bad. We think this is the cause, but it isn't.

This is where I disagree with Hick's teachings. He says that if you have a negative feeling, e.g. anger, all you have to do is move up a notch in the vibrational scale and the problem is solved; all you have to do is desire something and allow it to manifest and you will be happy. If you get bored with what you manifested, then you just choose something else to manifest, ad infinitum. For me, that is not a recipe for happiness - it is just a succession of temporary fixes which don't address the real problem.

The ego tries to repress this feeling of angst. It tries to keep the lid on, because it does not want to experience pain. If there is any hint of pain, the ego immediately looks around for a cure. This is where craving (subtly called desire by Hicks) starts. All craving is a desire to escape the presence of angst/suffering. This is what is described in the Buddha's Second Noble Truth. We feel dissatisfaction, we look around, then crave something to get rid of that feeling.

Where I disagree with the Buddha's teaching, however, is that I don't believe suffering stops if you remove the object of desire. And, I don't believe the supporting verse in the New Testament where it says that if your eye sins, you should pluck it out, because that is not addressing the cause of the problem.

As I said, whatever event has happened to you - that is not the cause of your present dissatisfaction. The cause is that you have not come to terms with your inner angst. It is like having a simmering pot on the stove. You've put the lid on, but it keeps vibrating. Vapour and bubbles from it constantly rise and filter through your consciousness to be manifested as dissatisfaction, negative feelings and cravings in your outer experience.

But, where does the angst itself come from?
All Christians know (or believe that they know) where it originates. It is the result of being separated from God.

Now, I would like to invite all of you to consider what the options are. Do you think you come under one of the categories below? If so, why? Think it through, meditate on it. I hope you have a wonderful realization.

1. Angst does not exist. It is a self-inflicted delusion.

2. Angst does exist, but it's got nothing to do with being separated from God, because God doesn't exist.

3. Angst does exist, and is the result of being, or feeling, separated from God.

4. I don't care whether it exists or not. I feel fine, and if others feel angst or suffer, then that's their problem.

Are there any other options I may not have considered?

[Terumoto]

I think the angst is the result of being "separated" from God/Tao/The Universe, or whatever you want to call it, and I suppose it exists. Except, I also believe that the angst is a self-inflicted delusion. This is because it is actually impossible to be separate from God, and anybody who doesn't see that is creating an illusion of separation for themselves. It's the corny old idea of being one with the universe.

It gives our existence meaning. Two parts unite to create something greater than the sum of the two parts. The universe and the "true" self unite and the meaning is there, but it's not the kind of thing that can be explained in any way other than seeing it for yourself. When a wall is put up between the universe and the self, the angst kicks in and we feel lost, confused, isolated, pointless, etc. It's similar to the union between a man and a woman that creates a child, which is so much more to them than just the sum of the man and the woman... Or the union between sound and silence that creates music. Sound by itself, without any silence is pointless, it would just be a mess. Silence by itself without sound is equally boring and useless. When they unite, they can make all kinds of incredible music.

I don't think the Buddha was trying to get people to remove the object of desire, it's more like he was trying to get them to get rid of the root cause of the desire. That being the self/ego, which could be seen as the barrier that lies between a person and God/Tao/The Universe.

Cantando, what about you? Where do you think the angst comes from? Do you fall into one of the categories you listed, or do you think something different?

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

I think the angst is the result of being "separated" from God/Tao/The Universe, or whatever you want to call it, and I suppose it exists. Except, I also believe that the angst is a self-inflicted delusion. This is because it is actually impossible to be separate from God, and anybody who doesn't see that is creating an illusion of separation for themselves. It's the corny old idea of being one with the universe.
...
Cantando, what about you? Where do you think the angst comes from? Do you fall into one of the categories you listed, or do you think something different?

I agree with that.

I see angst as a condition or state, but it does seem to be real for as long as it persists. It is part of the human condition, otherwise we probably wouldn't be here experiencing it.

The only conclusion I can draw is that I feel angst and have the resulting negative negative feelings and experiences, because of the disconnection from the love of God. If it was caused by separateness/disconnection for any other reason, I don't think it would have such a deep, emotional and spiritual impact.

[Maguru]

I also have felt the journey to enlightenment can be likened to childbirth. Painful and hard work being the birth-mother and the birthing child at the same time. It doesn't surprise me that we all experience the journey in different ways but all are valid.
I take enlightenment to mean the awareness of something I was not previously aware of. It could be a false belief. It could be a new perception or feeling. It could be knowledge or wisdom. To me it is an expansion of the current known.
However, I found noblity and dignity are also ego based but I'll stick on worthiness. I've earned it.

Originally Posted by Cantando

Enlightenment is a bit like childbirth - you just want to get that thing out of you, but it's so painful!

Isn't there a biblical quotation about creation being like one, giant, cosmic groan of childbirth?
It is reflected in each one of us, in our existential angst, the primal scream. It is there every morning when you wake up: "Why am I? Why am I conscious? Why aren't I not conscious?". You can never escape it.

If we face and accept the pain, it can be resolved, and then enlightenment may occur and one will be born anew.

Unfortunately, so many of us are ignorant of this, or refuse to accept it, running and hiding from it, in the pursuit of trivial and transient pleasures.

This concept is expounded by the Buddha in the first Noble Truth and continues into Christianity with the great symbology of the Agony in the Garden, the Crucifixion and the teaching that we all have our cross to bear.

The pursuit of pleasure is, ultimately, worthless. Of much greater significance, power and magnitude in the human psyche/soul is the sense of nobility, dignity and worthiness, in being able to face, withstand and resolve adversity and suffering. This is real self-acceptance, not telling yourself how happy and lovely you are and how marvellous your manifestations are.

We are tested by fire - do you have the courage to walk through it? If you don't, you will never find enlightenment. You will go round in circles thinking you can achieve happiness through the enjoyment of life's pleasures. Like a child with a toy, you soon tire of it and look for something else to play with.

Just my current view. Don't take it too seriously!