Spinoff: Are we willing to be wrong?

[cdn2wheeler]

I wasn't quite sure where to put this, so mods feel free to move it if you wish.

I'll cut right to the chase here: Are we willing to be wrong? Are we willing to have our preconceptions altered or smashed?

There's a lively and spirited discussion going on about the nature of evidence that's showing a clear divide between two camps.

Camp 1 says, "Our truth is our truth. We've experienced it for ourselves. We have no need or desire to prove it to anyone, so a request for evidence only shows how fearful the others are."

Camp 2 says, "There IS such a thing as objective truth, whether we like it or not. We seek evidence because that's how we make sense of the world. Denying a request for objective evidence only shows how fearful the others are."

And it goes around in circles, each camp armed to the existential teeth, hurling objections and denials and accusations of fear back and forth like rocks.

(Now, I know that both camps have various off-shoots with people in fluid stages of belief, so it's not nearly as binary as I present it here, but for the purposes of this thread I'm trying to keep it simple.)

For my personal part, I willingly admit that I'm in Camp 2. I've sought evidence (both here an in my life beyond the board... I do have one, really!) through study, argument, technique and wonder but, alas, have come up dry so far. That's not to say that there isn't evidence, it just means that I haven't found it yet.

But I'm willing to be wrong. I discuss these things and search for evidence because that's how I learn. A free exchange of ideas, argument and counter-argument are, to me, vital in expanding my understanding.

So I urge posters in BOTH camps to consider the possibility, however remote, that you may be wrong.

Camp 1-ers, consider the possibility that your experiences are the result of a wonderful imagination, maybe a trick of the brain that we don't understand or some other organic phemomenon, and be open to the spirit of study, evidence and inquiry.

Camp 2-ers, consider the possibility that maybe there is something going on that's not based purely in the physical organics of, say, brain chemistry, or wild imaginings or naturally-occuring altered states that aren't even remotely supernatural.

Be open to possibilities. In the spirit of open inquiry, be willing to be wrong.

[Brutha]

But I'm willing to be wrong. I discuss these things and search for evidence because that's how I learn. A free exchange of ideas, argument and counter-argument are, to me, vital in expanding my understanding.

How do you know? You could be wrong there too.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

So I urge posters in BOTH camps to consider the possibility, however remote, that you may be wrong.

Be open to possibilities. In the spirit of open inquiry, be willing to be wrong.

Most people here know i'm on Camp 2. People on camp 2 is the one that conceives the possiblity that they might be wrong, that's why we're always searching for proofs and evidences about our current beliefs and about beliefs that are suggested to us.

Meanwhile, people on Camp 1 just believe what they want to believe in, and they don't consider objective (and not subjective proofs created by wishful thinking) proofs to be valid if these proofs don't help them making their points.



Maybe i'm wrong, but that's why i'm constantly looking for proofs on my beliefs and on points of view/beliefs suggested by others.

[Angela]

uh-oh. It doesn't look like Sam's going to Camp CDN.

Sam, I think cdn is suggesting that it's not necessary to make others wrong in order for you to be right. (right, cdn? I took liberties with you, but what else is new.)

It's by no means the only way to go, but it gets you more chicks.

[Ree]

I must be in a totally different camp, because I DO NOT CARE what others believe. I KNOW that I am right as far as my own beliefs go. I also know that the rest of you will find out what is right for you in your own good time. Let's just say that I am not agitating over any of this I am not willing to be imprisoned by what you think or by what I KNOW about what you think! i think it's all (as they say) much ado about nothing!!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Ree

I must be in a totally different camp, because I DO NOT CARE what others believe. I KNOW that I am right as far as my own beliefs go. I also know that the rest of you will find out what is right for you in your own good time. Let's just say that I am not agitating over any of this I am not willing to be imprisoned by what you think or by what I KNOW about what you think! i think it's all (as they say) much ado about nothing!!

But you are willing to be imprisoned by what you think and by what you KNOW about what you think?

[Uplift]

I pretty much agree with Ree. I'll change anything if I experience, or feel a reason to.

But, cdn, this is the blunt facts for me. If I'm standing in my beachside mansion, feeling deluxe, feeling awesome, surrounded by the love of my happy thriving family, stoked with now, and what I believe I'm creating, and I want to to be and am super fit and surf really well, when I like, and donate to charities and have all these dreams, and Spiritual leanings and experiences...and someone says...

'Hey mate, you're deluded. Illusional. You're foolin' yourself, dreamin', I know the truth, its all a coincidence, luck, you are doing this wrong, that wrong, and whats more, what you think is dangerous, you don't really know a thing.'

And, if that person was a physical wreck, standing out the front, trying to hitch a lift, to get to his rundown house next to the smelting works, and asked me if I could lend him a few bob... and was moaning about his job and this and that, well, what do you reckon. Naturally I would say, 'Geee mate, teach me, I'm all ears' (yeh, right)...more like, 'hey why don't you try manipulating all these consequenses, and using all these skills you are an expert in'.

Or alternatively, if I bumped into some guy or girl in the surf, and they were stoked outa there heads, ripping, surfing unreal, and they went into their awesome camper, maybe powered by that wind generator Dan showed us, and they looked awesomely heathy, fit and happy. I would want to know more. Then if they were telling me how they were doing all this stuff, fullfilling all these dreams, stoked, free, inspired, content, and they felt it was all due to certain beliefs...I would be clamouring for info. And when I tried it, if I found the same thing happening I would change, adopt it in an instant. And if I didn't like it, I wouldn't, and wouldn't expect the other person to care less.

And thats what I do. Regardless of what anyone thinks or says.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Brutha

How do you know? You could be wrong there too.

Could be. But I'd bet he has seen what happens to understanding when people argue to promote understanding rather than arguing for the sake of appearing right, or refusing to discuss things at all.

And I'd also bet that, like me, what he has seen/experienced shows that the first method, arguing with the intent of expanding understanding, has been much more effective than any other approach.

But I could be wrong

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

I wasn't quite sure where to put this, so mods feel free to move it if you wish.

I'll cut right to the chase here: Are we willing to be wrong? Are we willing to have our preconceptions altered or smashed?

As I believe in we create our own lives, I would ask, are you willing to be right? To totally truly wear it. To stand up and be totally self reliant, and totally accountable, totally right, regardless of the outcome. To have enough surity, certainty, fearlessness to be right.

Thats what I love about Richard Branson, well, me too. Anyone. Whatever you think about boxing, the night Muhammed Ali beat Foreman was just that. The rope a dope...no one even had a clue what he was doing. Trainers, managers, commentators, fans, experts, all screaming advice at him...'get off the ropes, he's doomed, what are you doing, disaster, he's gonna be knocked out, he's finished, he's gonna be this, he's gonna be that, he should do this, he should do that'. And he ignored the whole show, totally focused on his direction. And he backed himself totally, relied totally on his own belief, no doubt, no fear. As he always had done. A hero. Imagine what everyone praising him, would be saying if he lost. Thats where most peoples energy goes.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Uplift

To stand up and be totally self reliant, and totally accountable, totally right, regardless of the outcome. To have enough surity, certainty, fearlessness to be right...no one even had a clue what he was doing. Trainers, managers, commentators, fans, experts, all screaming advice at him...'get off the ropes, he's doomed, what are you doing, disaster, he's gonna be knocked out, he's finished, he's gonna be this, he's gonna be that, he should do this, he should do that'. And he ignored the whole show, totally focused on his direction. And he backed himself totally, relied totally on his own belief, no doubt, no fear. As he always had done.

You're talking about George W. Bush, right?

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Angela

You're talking about George W. Bush, right?

No, he sits at home shitting himself, while he sends everyone else off to fight. And without his voters he's gone.

[Max Power]

Right or wrong are practically irrelevant just as proof is. There is no proof that anything is right or wrong, the only thing we can ever do is align with a belief that empowers us and that provides results.

Max

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Uplift

As I believe in we create our own lives, I would ask, are you willing to be right? To totally truly wear it. To stand up and be totally self reliant, and totally accountable, totally right, regardless of the outcome. To have enough surity, certainty, fearlessness to be right.

Well, Uplift, I'm quite sure that's what George W. considers himself to be doing. Truly wearing his rightness. "Ignoring the whole show." Relying on his own belief. Just like the examples you listed, and just like Josef Stalin, Osama bin Laden, Kim Jong-Il, Adolf Hitler, and Britney Spears -- all of them own the certainty of their beliefs and totally focused on their direction, just as you recommend.

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, Uplift, I'm quite sure that's what George W. considers himself to be doing. Truly wearing his rightness. "Ignoring the whole show." Relying on his own belief. Just like the examples you listed, and just like Josef Stalin, Osama bin Laden, Kim Jong-Il, Adolf Hitler, and Britney Spears -- all of them own the certainty of their beliefs and totally focused on their direction, just as you recommend.

No, Ali went to prison, rather than kill. Faced the racist nation on his own two feet. Sat in jail, gave up the championship. My examples stand on their own two feet. This site is for smart people...isn't it. Killing each other is dumb. Like I said, your examples send every one else to kill for them. Gutless. I don't know who is more gutless though, them or the cowards that bow down to them and kill each other. Unlike Ali, people snivell at their feet, and kill each other for them, on all sides.

Keep trying though, you never know your...err how does it go, what should I learn...coincidence, illusion, delusion, vivid imagination, or luck.

[Angela]

Uplift, regardless of your judgement of those people, they were doing what you recommend people do: being positive of their own rightness, regardless of what other people say. That is a quality that you profess to admire! In this case, you are the "other people," so does that mean you only want people to own their rightness if YOU think they're right?

Incidentally, I happen to think that Muhammad Ali's profession, fighting for money, is "dumb", as you put it. Especially considering all the pain and mental and physical problems he's had as a direct result of it. I don't condone beating people to a bloody pulp any more than you condone mass execution. Or Britney's recent performances.

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Angela

Uplift, regardless of your judgement of those people, they were doing what you recommend people do: being positive of their own rightness, regardless of what other people say. That is a quality that you profess to admire! In this case, you are the "other people," so does that mean you only want people to own their rightness if YOU think they're right?

Incidentally, I happen to think that Muhammad Ali's profession, fighting for money, is "dumb", as you put it. Especially considering all the pain and mental and physical problems he's had as a direct result of it. I don't condone beating people to a bloody pulp any more than you condone mass execution. Or Britney's recent performances.

Its not my judgement, Its fact. When are they fighting each other, killing each other. Standing on their own two feet. Being totally self reliant. Self accountable. They are too cowardly. Its not like Harrison in the movies. And the people do go off and kill for them. Its happening right now, no matter how I judge it.

I think its honest, boxing. At least the two involved choose it and only harm each other. Each has a choice and knows the consequences. Rather than cunningly and sneakily trying to attack each other, and get one over each other, using any sneaky means possible, like most afraid people do. Ali payed his price and wore it himself. He didn't force boxing on anyone. In fact he is famous for encouraging and fostering equalness and peace, because he did it.

Britneys a good target for the brave isn't she.

'Lets pummel the **** out of that mixed up young woman, us big brave reporters and countries. Come on join in, give her one in the guts. Quick, get a shot of her dying. What? Help her? But then we won't get to see and sell her tits and arse anymore.'

No recruits here to beat up Britney, not here. Helping her is a bit harder, eh? Does'nt sell.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Uplift

Its not my judgement, Its fact.

By "it", do you mean "what I believe is true about the people listed here"? You believe that what you believe is true (this person is good; that person is dumb) is fact, and not judgement?

While I think you're right that being committed to your own sense of rightness can lead you to great personal power -- witness all the people we've listed in this thread; regardless of how you or I judge them, they achieved a great deal of power (such as it is), didn't they? -- I also believe that being 100% convinced of your own righteousness and 0% committed to being open to the possibility that something else would work better is a great way to keep yourself tethered in the darkness of what you don't know you don't know.

I'd rather be free.

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Angela

By "it", do you mean "what I believe is true about the people listed here"? You believe that what you believe is true (this person is good; that person is dumb) is fact, and not judgement?

While I think you're right that being committed to your own sense of rightness can lead you to great personal power -- witness all the people we've listed in this thread; regardless of how you or I judge them, they achieved a great deal of power (such as it is), didn't they? -- I also believe that being 100% convinced of your own righteousness and 0% committed to being open to the possibility that something else would work better is a great way to keep yourself tethered in the darkness of what you don't know you don't know.

I'd rather be free.

Good, I'm glad you are 100% committed to being free.

And killing each other is dumb, it wont lead to freedom, it will end humanity. I'm 100% certain, and I don't want to kill anyone, or get anyone to do it. I'll say no. Not worth playing word games over.

I'm going to bed, to my awesome lady, tethered as I am in my awesome house, listening to the ocean, feeling awesome. And I'll send some sincere love Britney's way.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Uplift

And killing each other is dumb, it wont lead to freedom, it will end humanity. I'm 100% certain, and I don't want to kill anyone, or get anyone to do it. I'll say no. Not worth playing word games over.

Word games? My question had nothing to do with killing. In response to your posts about your beliefs about people (some of whom are killers, some of whom are not) I asked you:

By "it", do you mean "what I believe is true about the people listed here"? You believe that what you believe is true (this person is good; that person is dumb) is fact, and not judgement?

No word games here, Uplift. Just direct questions that you're not getting around to answering for some reason. Maybe cuz you're sleepy. Sweet dreams!

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Angela

Word games? My question had nothing to do with killing. In response to your posts about your beliefs about people (some of whom are killers, some of whom are not) I asked you:



No word games here, Uplift. Just direct questions that you're not getting around to answering for some reason. Maybe cuz you're sleepy. Sweet dreams!

I broke my own rule, and stayed up way too late to try and continue to interact with you. It was more than sweet dreams for me, though.

Angela, all your examples were the opposite to my belief. Hitler relied on everyone else to kill, and the killers relied on his direction to think. No self reliance. If there was, if Hitler had to kill all the Jews himself, or if the disciples told him where to go, things would be different. I say constantly, example. If you think thats smart, good example worth following, go for it.

You don't want my answer, you don't like it. Fine, who cares. I love it. Show me something that will make me want to change and I'll love yours.

I am happy, in fact awe inspired to throw my examples of self reliance up, no matter what. If you think the example sucks, go elsewhere. I have my understanding of self, its Spiritual. Self reliance is unlimited, and unlimited in its wisdom. No killing. If people learned about themselves, their true self, if they had any understanding of it, they wouldn't kill anyone, like your examples. My examples truly are self reliant, and the outcomes awe inspiring to me, the opposite of killing. I believe learning about yourself, finding it, like anything else, is easy, guarranteed, with total unwavering focus, belief, commitment, self reliance, no matter what.

Look at all these post here, 'how can I do this, how can I do that, why am I feeling no good, why this, why that, why no muscles, why shitty boss, why no weight loss, why no money, why drugs, why no spiritual experience.' No one wants the answer. Then more posts, 'weights don't work, this doesnt work, this is delusional, this is impossible.' None of it is a mystery to me. Especially when the askers espouse their beliefs.

If we disected personal examples, truthfully, its easy to see. 'I would love this, its my dream, I really would love it. Right, I'm going to get it, do it. Here I go everyone, full bore, dream here I come. Full self reliance, full focus... Coffee, where, what time, I was gonna...nah, nah nah, wait I'm coming. Okay, that was great, met some great people too. Now the dream...I'm gonna visualise...I see myself...**** that coffee was good, I might give em a ring. That's the phone...gidday, I've been visualising, doesn't work eh, oh yeh, I gave it a shot, whoa and what a shot eh, couldn't of done it any better than me. Whats that, the professor said what, I gotta read it, yeh, thats it, I tried all that other stuff, this is it. What do you think, did they... show me that new one, yeh, now that makes sense. That other stuff, professer whatever, always sounded a bit suss eh' I think i'll stick with this...who, what website, give us a look. Incredible discussion eh! Dream...oh that, no dreams are dillusional, not really my thing.'

The biggest loser is a comedy to me, hilarious, as I was a personal trainer. Have a look at the army of people and resources trying to keep the one person focused, believing. And the stories in the beginning. 'I'll do anything to reach my goal. I'm serious.' 'Well here it is, day 2, my trainer is a dickhead, weights don't work for me, its been 2 days without a donut, I can't wait to see my family. That other guy is such a pain, I don't know how long I can cope with them.' And the unbelievably, massive army strives to keep them focused, create some self reliance. And one does. Wow they lost weight! And the others all have a story, and some great donuts and discussions to recall.

I would love to see a biggest loser version of LoA and stuff, it would be hilarious. 'What! We visualised yesterday!!! I can't focus, I cant see, it doesn't work, it never works! I just need some coffee, what time is it, this is ridiculous. Some body get me out of here!' And can you imagine the stories (personal trainers hear some beauties) 'I did it so hard, I mean, I was so focused, just visualising visualising, visualising, it was murder!!! Relaxed, Oh yeh, I was relaxed alright, believe me, it just doesn't work. Its so boring!!!They were so ridiculous and boring, its all they think about. They just don't get it, I'm...'

So I've got my examples, my dreams, and I know why. Like I said I'll change if I see a reason, and when I change, it is with total self reliance, total self belief, total unwavering focus, no matter what anyone says. No army needed. No excuses either. But tons of fullfilled dreams. If you want some examples to look at, no worries. Take it or leave it.

[Angela]

Uplift, pardon me, but are you operating on a lack of sleep? That was a long rant, but it didn't really address my question. I'm recreating the question here, along with the remarks that led me to it, so you can remember the logical progression:

You believe that what you believe is true (this person is good; that person is dumb) is fact, and not judgement?

Its not my judgement, Its fact.

Uplift, regardless of your judgement of those people, they were doing what you recommend people do: being positive of their own rightness, regardless of what other people say. That is a quality that you profess to admire! In this case, you are the "other people," so does that mean you only want people to own their rightness if YOU think they're right?

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Angela

Uplift, pardon me, but are you operating on a lack of sleep? That was a long rant, but it didn't really address my question. I'm recreating the question here, along with the remarks that led me to it, so you can remember the logical progression:

Still no examples.

My original post that you dont like, says, self reliance, self accountability.

I answered already. Show me your provided examples fighting, killing each other. They don't, they are gutless, no self reliance or accountability, self anything. So you can't. Its a fact. Are other people killing each other for them, because they are told to. Yes, its a fact. No self reliance, no self accountability, no wisdom. I believe in Self, Spirit as the ultimate, so the dumb act of killing is no suprise, it has nothing to do with self reliance, self accountability, my post. For some reason, you introduced it along with your bash Britney angle.

Thats one example I take note of.

To me, ranting is nothing to show behind the words. No examples.

I'm off to live and enjoy mine, my examples. Post your heart out. If there's some examples, I'll take note. But in all honesty, that Britney angle already says plenty to me.

[Angela]

I'm sorry, Uplift, I don't understand a word you're saying or what you're asking.

(Except that you feel I bashed Britney -- I didn't; I said she has a quality that you admire: she "truly wears her rightness, ignores the whole show, relies on her own belief." She's not your sister, is she? )

Well, I'm going to bow out of this discussion with you now due to almost complete bewilderment by your creative expression style.

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Angela

I'm sorry, Uplift, I don't understand a word you're saying or what you're asking.

(Except that you feel I bashed Britney -- I didn't; I said she has a quality that you admire: she "truly wears her rightness, ignores the whole show, relies on her own belief." She's not your sister, is she? )

Well, I'm going to bow out of this discussion with you now due to almost complete bewilderment by your creative expression style.

Yeh, yeh, yeh, thats great Angela, another awesome example of what you cant do.

Hows this though, its awesome, I love it. Remember I said I'm gonna send Britney some sincere love, before I hit the sack! Its six posts back, my exact words. Now this!!!

Spears avoids hit-and-run trial, gains unlikely ally

Its awesome!!! It's classic, the timing, everything, I love it, its so deluxe, isn't it. Example after example, after example, after example, you gotta love it though, you can't fool yourself.