Question about Subjective Reality/IM

[Nelson]

Do starving kids in africa/india/mexico create their own reality? Or do only people in 1st world countries create their own reality?

[cooljd9009]

if your talking about subjective reality, the only reality is yours, so in a sense you are creating their conditions. Remember, you are the only consciense(sp?) being

[torilink]

yours is the only reality, you create it. These things exist because of your beliefs. You believe in a world with starving children. You believe there can be lack. You believe that there are really other people separate from you. and so on.

[Euragios]

Originally Posted by torilink

yours is the only reality, you create it. These things exist because of your beliefs. You believe in a world with starving children. You believe there can be lack. You believe that there are really other people separate from you. and so on.

Takes me to this quote, which I really like:
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Albert Einstein

Everything we see, think, feel or live is just our look on reality. Nothing really exists. You create it.

[Rahzad]

Originally Posted by Nelson

Do starving kids in africa/india/mexico create their own reality? Or do only people in 1st world countries create their own reality?

Maslow tells us if you deprive people of some basic things, they will be stuck in an endless self limiting cycle and fail to actualize or transcend. Therefore they end up creating their own reality by default, without actually realizing they are creating a personal reality that stinks. This is why it is so powerful to keep people in a state of fear, and why fear is the modus of the powers that be, it is effect at keeping people down below levels they can actualize and transcend.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Euragios

Takes me to this quote, which I really like:
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Albert Einstein

Everything we see, think, feel or live is just our look on reality. Nothing really exists. You create it.

wonderful quote. and yes, it is persistent isn't it.

[Euragios]

Originally Posted by torilink

wonderful quote. and yes, it is persistent isn't it.

Yes it is, unless you change your views and opinions; then your reality changes with them.

[jippykid]

Originally Posted by torilink

yours is the only reality, you create it. These things exist because of your beliefs. You believe in a world with starving children. You believe there can be lack. You believe that there are really other people separate from you. and so on.

How about if you've actually been to a third world country, and have seen starving children firsthand? In the SR model, should I believe that the only reason I witnessed this is because it's what I expected to witness? If I would have traveled there expecting to see a city made of gold, would that have been my experience?

I'm curious, Torilink, do these children exist in your reality? That sounds like I'm trolling, but I assure you it's an honest question.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by jippykid

How about if you've actually been to a third world country, and have seen starving children firsthand? In the SR model, should I believe that the only reason I witnessed this is because it's what I expected to witness? If I would have traveled there expecting to see a city made of gold, would that have been my experience?

I'm curious, Torilink, do these children exist in your reality? That sounds like I'm trolling, but I assure you it's an honest question.

Jipp, I understand what you are saying.

If someone lived in a small village, perhaps, their awareness would be restricted to whatever was happening in that village.
But now, in the 21st century, the world is one big village and we are aware of the plight of others via the media and one's awareness expands.

If you are still in your little village, with no TV, that's fine.
But, if you have been made aware of the plight of others around the world, then try to shut it out, that it is not happening, and construct cotton wool buffers of SR to shield yourself from the possibility that others may exist, then you are denying what you are truly aware of, and who you truly are.

I really can't understand why some posters say that they are God, that they are pure consciousness and yet shut out the reality of others, who share the same consciousness, and don't feel a scrap of compassion for them.

That is New Age belief at its most foul extreme: there is only me, no-one else exists.
I have noticed that these subscribers to SR never speak about love or compassion, sharing or giving. It is all about me, me, me.

[Rahzad]

Originally Posted by jippykid

If I would have traveled there expecting to see a city made of gold, would that have been my experience?

Yeah, thats where this whole radical-SR movement comes to a screeching halt.

Originally Posted by Cantando

That is New Age belief at its most foul extreme: there is only me, no-one else exists. I have noticed that these subscribers to SR never speak about love or compassion, sharing or giving. It is all about me, me, me.

What a perfect way to screw oneself out of enlightenment, Satan would be proud. Oh wait, evil doesn't exist? Keep telling yourself that while you live a life that would make evil clap with joy. A lot of New Age is a bunch of mind manipulation BS, people are buying right into it hook line and sinker these days.

[jippykid]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Jipp, I understand what you are saying.

Yes, you do. I couldn't put my finger on it like you did here:

Originally Posted by Cantando

But, if you have been made aware of the plight of others around the world, then try to shut it out, that it is not happening, and construct cotton wool buffers of SR to shield yourself from the possibility that others may exist, then you are denying what you are truly aware of, and who you truly are.

I really can't understand why some posters say that they are God, that they are pure consciousness and yet shut out the reality of others, who share the same consciousness, and don't feel a scrap of compassion for them.

That is New Age belief at its most foul extreme: there is only me, no-one else exists.
I have noticed that these subscribers to SR never speak about love or compassion, sharing or giving. It is all about me, me, me.

There is still quite a bit that I don't understand or comprehend about my own consciousness. I am aware enough to know that I don't, and may never, have it all figured out. So I'm completely open to the idea of SR, but there's something that makes me queasy about it, and it's exactly what you wrote above.

It's great if the idea of SR empowers you to take action and make positive change in your life. For me, though, thinking this way makes me feel less human, and goes fundamentally against what I believe my higher purpose is: to serve others.

Proponents of SR, my guess is that you're thinking the only reason I see people who need me to help them is because I'm manifesting some sort of need to help myself? Please don't take this in the glib way I think it's coming across. I'd truly appreciate your opinion here.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by jippykid

How about if you've actually been to a third world country, and have seen starving children firsthand? In the SR model, should I believe that the only reason I witnessed this is because it's what I expected to witness?

I'm witnessing starving children on TV or in a third world country to show myself there are parts of me I keep in great denial.... denial of support (living conditions), denial of my own self-nurturance (food), and denial of creatorship (lack). I know I see these conditions on the outside because I am unaware of them inside myself.

If I see the children as separate from myself, I can keep the denial in place and avoid feeling the lack I carry inside. If I see them as myself and MORE than the simple mental acknowledgment that they are me, I give myself the opportunity to go deeper and see what is behind this reflection of myself.

I'm not an SR person, but that is how I'd answer jippykid's query.

[jippykid]

Originally Posted by Dharma

If I see the children as separate from myself, I can keep the denial in place and avoid feeling the lack I carry inside. If I see them as myself and MORE than the simple mental acknowledgment that they are me, I give myself the opportunity to go deeper and see what is behind this reflection of myself.

Where I take issue is when this line of reasoning does what Cantando outlines here:

Originally Posted by Cantando

That is New Age belief at its most foul extreme: there is only me, no-one else exists.
I have noticed that these subscribers to SR never speak about love or compassion, sharing or giving. It is all about me, me, me.

Here's what I can accept about SR. I can accept that how I perceive others' struggles -for consistency's sake, we'll use the starving children example again - reflects how I view the world in relation to my internal struggles. I can accept that upon observing this scenario, I'm immediately making judgments and assumptions about it based on the things that I currently struggle with.

So, when I observed that small village in Africa, I noticed the malnourished children and large plate of food they offered to me, and I immediately feel guilty. Most likely, I focused on this because I was obese and I came from the US where food is cheap and plentiful. I was responding to the "denial of support (living conditions), denial of my own self-nurturance (food)" which are two thing I take largely for granted (though I am working on that). If my situation was different when I had that experience, I may have instead put more focus on the way the adults interacted or the customs of the village, or who knows what else I missed.

My main point is that I think SR is great when it challenges you to work on those areas of your life which are not in sync with your higher self. Is reality something I create based on my assumptions and preconceptions, or do my observations about "laws" in nature form my beliefs about reality? Isn't this what this whole debate boils down to? A discussion of which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[incomprehensible]

What most of you SR posters seem to actually be talking about seems more like Solipsism.

This is an interesting article that seems applicable here:

Solipsism and the Problem of Other Minds [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

[torilink]

Originally Posted by jippykid

How about if you've actually been to a third world country, and have seen starving children firsthand? In the SR model, should I believe that the only reason I witnessed this is because it's what I expected to witness? If I would have traveled there expecting to see a city made of gold, would that have been my experience?

I'm curious, Torilink, do these children exist in your reality? That sounds like I'm trolling, but I assure you it's an honest question.

Well, first of all let me begin by stating that the question asked was about SR, in SR there is only one consciousness which creates everything.

How creation is viewed/experienced and perceived are dependent upon the ego mind. This is the perception based upon judgement of a circumstance/situation/experience.

You assume that this exists outside of your reality, outside your thoughts and beliefs (ego mind), which according to SR is incorrect. Everything you see with the eyes is a reflection of your past thoughts and beliefs.

Unfortunately, I do still see many unpleasant things outside myself that have the appearance of reality, but I know they are a reflection - as I work within myself to change my beliefs & thoughts and to align my ego mind to that of consciousness, my perceptions of reality shift.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by incomprehensible

What most of you SR posters seem to actually be talking about seems more like Solipsism.

This is an interesting article that seems applicable here:

Solipsism and the Problem of Other Minds [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

No I don't think that is a correct accessment. If you hear what is being said through the ego, then that might seem to be how it appears, but it is not what is in fact being stated.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by jippykid

Yes, you do. I couldn't put my finger on it like you did here:



There is still quite a bit that I don't understand or comprehend about my own consciousness. I am aware enough to know that I don't, and may never, have it all figured out. So I'm completely open to the idea of SR, but there's something that makes me queasy about it, and it's exactly what you wrote above.

It's great if the idea of SR empowers you to take action and make positive change in your life. For me, though, thinking this way makes me feel less human, and goes fundamentally against what I believe my higher purpose is: to serve others.

Proponents of SR, my guess is that you're thinking the only reason I see people who need me to help them is because I'm manifesting some sort of need to help myself? Please don't take this in the glib way I think it's coming across. I'd truly appreciate your opinion here.

A good question to ask is what is more compassionate...

If SR is true, and by paying attention to illness, disease, and starvation - it manifests more of it for these "People" to experience, then the most compassionate thing, the most loving thing is to withdraw all belief in it.

For me, withdrawing belief in these things (lack, hunger, hate, death, evil, pain, suffering) is the most loving and compassionate thing I can do.

Perhaps you are too quick to judge what is or isn't compassionate or loving. We must all stop judging one another based upon our personal beliefs of good/bad, righteous/evil, loving/not loving.

[jippykid]

Originally Posted by torilink

If SR is true, and by paying attention to illness, disease, and starvation - it manifests more of it for these "People" to experience, then the most compassionate thing, the most loving thing is to withdraw all belief in it.

For me, withdrawing belief in these things (lack, hunger, hate, death, evil, pain, suffering) is the most loving and compassionate thing I can do.

Torilink - Thank you for so perfectly illustrating my opposition to SR. Excuse me for being so blunt, but this sounds to me as if you're saying the best thing to do is literally, yes literally, pull the wool over your eyes! This makes no sense to me at all. Don't you feel that this is a completely disempowering way in which to view the world? Isn't there room for personal growth in tandem with reaching out to others, being proactive?

I'm relieved to know that my understanding of SR -that is "I create reality, so the best thing for me to do to realize change in the world is to fix my own house" has been confirmed by at least one SR proponent here. Can the rest of you who've adopted this lens for viewing your world confirm this?

My apologies to all who don't feel the need to "prove" themselves, but I'm asking an honest question about a POV that I simply cannot accept.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by jippykid

Torilink - Thank you for so perfectly illustrating my opposition to SR. Excuse me for being so blunt, but this sounds to me as if you're saying the best thing to do is literally, yes literally, pull the wool over your eyes! This makes no sense to me at all. Don't you feel that this is a completely disempowering way in which to view the world? Isn't there room for personal growth in tandem with reaching out to others, being proactive?

the question was how this works IN the SR belief system, not your belief system. If thoughts create reality, if belief determines what we experience, then changing the beliefs & thoughts inside oneself is the ONLY way to help others or change the world.

No, it is extremely empowering to realize you are the only one who can save the world.

[jippykid]

Originally Posted by torilink

the question was how this works IN the SR belief system, not your belief system. If thoughts create reality, if belief determines what we experience, then changing the beliefs & thoughts inside oneself is the ONLY way to help others or change the world.

And those are some pretty huge "ifs" -I've had no experience which I believe supports this view on life.

Originally Posted by torilink

No, it is extremely empowering to realize you are the only one who can save the world.

Torilink, I genuinely wish you the best of luck with this. It sounds to me as though you have good intentions, though I cannot accept your philosophy moving forward. We'll have to agree to disagree.