What is Truth?

[Howie17]

There are many interpretations of truth, I think it is the cause of many religious constructs in existence today. At the core of it all, life in general, what is truth?

I can look and see the color brown, someone in another part of the world, may only see a shoe, as such, we're both right, (if I'm indeed looking at a shoe), which statement is true? Well, clearly they both are. It's obvious there is some misinterpretation of the language being used, but that is a separate topic (I think). What rings true to every man, woman, child, regardless of race or religion? Is it just the distinction of love and hate? Beauty and tarnish? or is even that too subjective, to the perception of the one perceiving? Does the description of truth stop at being a "law of the universe"? Or for the theists, is that distinction the only "truth" we have for the existence of a god?

It has been my frustration in communication to define this, it seems communication either comes down to misinterpretation of words or a misinterpretation of what truth IS. Is truth ultimately subjective? Or is truth not ultimate?

[Terumoto]

I consider truth to be reality. Try to convey it in any way, especially with words, and it is obscured. It cannot be defined, explained, or accurately discussed, but it can be pointed to and experienced.

[Angela]

Howie, I had a thread sometime ago looking to see if there was an Ultimate Truth that we could all agree to, and it was clear that there was no such thing, even among us Pavliniacs.

Some might say that there is indeed an ultimate truth (such as god or whatever), and it's just that some folk don't recognize It as The Truth and must be Enlightened. In my opinion, that approach is one of the greatest robbers of peace on our planet.

[cdn2wheeler]

Angela makes a very good point (she's pretty smart). Various institutions have, at different times in history, declared that they are somehow keepers of truth. Not all of those institutions have been religious, though many of them have been. Governments have also been guilty of it (see Dubya's insistence of WMDs in Iraq, or the mythical benefits of supply-side economics) and corporations use their version of the truth all the time to further their own agendas ("Your call is important to us. Please wait for an operator." - well, if the call was important, you wouldn't stick me into voice-jail, would you? And the truth-telling veracity of many sales departments verges on the infinitesimal. I know, I've worked with them.)

Institutional truth seems to have generated a backlash that's been called "post-modernism" - that is, there is no objective truth, there's only subjective truth. My truth is different from your truth because our perceptions may be different.

But that doesn't work either. If an apple falls from a tree, it's going to hit the ground (or whatever's underneath it). Doesn't matter if I perceive it or you perceive it, the apple's going to fall regardless of whether we're there or not.

(Which leads me to a joke: If a man is talking in the forest and no woman is there to hear him, is he still wrong? But I digress...)

Perhaps "truth" is one of those concepts that's similar to "quality." Pirsig, in his brilliant work Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, dissects the concept of "quality" in this way. I won't try to summarize the book here; I simply suggest that you read it for yourself. It's time well spent; you won't regret picking it up.

[Howie17]

I agree with you Angela, on the perspective that this debate of taking sides is a major factor in what's robbing the earth of peace, I think it comes to this summarization, however incomplete, I don't want to just cause another debate heh... :

Some genious found truth, shared it, as others who didn't bother finding it knew it was credible, took it as their own, and used the leverage of being right to promote their own agendas, this spawned a force to counter that, bring balance on earth, they countered by equally disagreeing, now both sides aren't following the truth, they are pulling away from each other, thinking it is a game of tug-o-war, if one side can pull the other into the pit, they can stop and play in the truth, but not enough people realize they will be equally at peace, to humbly lose the competition.

Somewhat pessimistic and sarcastic, hopefully you got the pointer though. Thanks for the replies, I feel I've found some common ground.

I quote Einstein possibly too often, but I find his statements entertaining. "There are two ways to live: as if everything is a miracle, or nothing is a miracle." (Paraphrased), At some point the miracle thinkers, exclaimed they were right, and this caused the non-miracle thinkers to freak, so to counteract the other, they exclaimed in return, "Life is without meaning!"

So.. how do we dismantle this conundrum? Can it be done? Would it just require one side to stop making exclamations? This whole idea has been on my mind these past few days, rather frustrating, both sides are understandable from the crossroad I stand at, I just wish we could bridge the two, and carry on.

I could keep bringing up examples of where I've seen this recently.. but I rest for now.

[Angela]

cdn2wheeler, thanks -- at least I'm dressed smart.

Howie, I think it's interesting that you think in terms of "two sides" when it comes to the truth -- and that in fact one side "found" the truth and the other side "countered" it. This implies that, indeed, there is One Truth (but it sounds like you're willing to tolerate those who can't "take it as their own."

So when you ask, "how can we dismantle this conundrum?" my answer is -- we realize that this conundrum is an illusion. You have one way of looking at the idea of truth, I have another, cdn2wheeler has another, and so on. The truth has infinite facets and appears to be a different gem when looked at from different points of view. Remember that old elephant fable, with the blind men warring over what they are touching, I believe that if we would surrender our need to be right and make others wrong, and accept our present moment and at the same time commit to broadening our horizons, we would be able to help each other love what is, whatever it is. And after all, what is the truth that is an elephant?

I think we start with ourselves as individuals, and let it spiral up.

[Howie17]

I'm not familiar with the elephant parable.. but I agree that it starts with us. My frustration comes from feeling I've made that change, now why won't everyone else! =) I'm a victim of my own desires, wishing the world would change at the rate I do. heh.

[BlueCrane]

I tried to get to the bottom of 'the truth' last year when I researched the legend of the 'Flying Dutchman' - I lived in an area then where the ghost ship was seen repeatedly, and very believably. Fascinating stuff, by the way, you can read my article about it if you want.

The conclusion I came to is that there is indeed no such thing as 'the truth' - everybody has their own truths (plural) because from our limited perspective, none of us know enough to be absolutely 100% sure about anything.

There are certain things that a great number of people agree upon, and if this number is overwhelming, then these things are labelled 'the truth'. The term implies that 'the truth' is something that is absolute, that never changes - but that doesn't exist : the only certainty is change.

But is that 'the truth'?

The truth of the Middle Ages was that the earth is flat and you'll fall off if you sail far enough. Today's truth is that calories have an effect on our body weight ...

'The Truth' is relative - very, very relative. Albert Einstein knew this even before he explored Quantum Physics.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Howie17

I'm not familiar with the elephant parable.. but I agree that it starts with us. My frustration comes from feeling I've made that change, now why won't everyone else! =) I'm a victim of my own desires, wishing the world would change at the rate I do. heh.

That's very funny, Howie! You mean this as a joke, I think, yes?

"I've made the change in myself that I don't need to be right and make others wrong, now why can't all those other stupid meatheads do the same thing and be enlightened like me?!?"

[Akashic_Librarian]

Truth is a subjective thing. If you are being yourself, living true to your "spirit" or "conscious" then, you are Truth. Truth is a verb

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Truth is a verb

I truth you, Akashic. I truth you very much!

[Ree]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Truth is a subjective thing. If you are being yourself, living true to your "spirit" or "conscious" then, you are Truth. Truth is a verb

Oh, I LIKE that, AL! If we want more truth in the world, we have to put it there!! We have to BE it. How inspiring.......

[Billy]

Sometimes I think that truth is totally subjective and when you get down to it everybody's truth is their truth, as well to ask what is belief aside from a few people that know what they know it is even more of an illusion, if I tell somebody that my cat is black and they believe me and my cat is in fact white have they not been deluded? Is belief in fact hope.

[Howie17]

Originally Posted by Angela

That's very funny, Howie! You mean this as a joke, I think, yes?

"I've made the change in myself that I don't need to be right and make others wrong, now why can't all those other stupid meatheads do the same thing and be enlightened like me?!?"

I was pointing out the irony of my situation, and how that could be seen humorously, full blown joke, not quite. Coming to terms that there is no absolute truth for us to experience tangibly here on earth, but that we have to interpret our subjective experiences to whatever end we find would be more of the change I'm looking for, a global realization, that no one can claim right and therefore another wrong, we can point out the flawed logic in theories but its still up to the person to decide what to believe and more importantly why. Given all this, I wouldn't personally use the term enlightenment, but maybe you define that term differently than I do.

[Angela]

I just knew you were being funny.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Howie17

There are many interpretations of truth, I think it is the cause of many religious constructs in existence today. At the core of it all, life in general, what is truth?

Which truth do you mean?

Absolute truth, the truth about life, yourself, reality, existence, humanity? Whew, my head is spinning already!

We are fortunate in this great age of information to have access to history, philosophy, theology, psychology and the various arts and sciences to study and arrive at our own truth. Many sages and genius' throughout the history of the world have contributed their findings for us to learn about and discover.

Study up and find what rings true for you!

[Johnny5]

Originally Posted by Howie17

There are many interpretations of truth, I think it is the cause of many religious constructs in existence today. At the core of it all, life in general, what is truth?

The Truth was taught by the Buddha called "The Four Noble Truths". Learn and practice it accordingly you will understand truths and realities. There are two kinds of realities in existence. Conventional reality and ultimate reality. Conventional reality is impermanent, and ultimate reality is permanent. There is a book called Abhidhamma "Detail of Sequence of Consequences". This book is telling you the details of conventional reality and ultimate reality in detail.

Let share some truth about beings that are in the flesh. These beings enjoyed and addicted physical pleasure. For example, we are enjoy eating, drinking, playing, seeing, discussing, talking, having sex, owning things.

Because these pleasures are not permanent, that is why the mind of all beings are constantly wandering.....wandering to find pleasure and escaping from pain.

The Buddha found the solution to this problem....it is the "Four Noble Truths"

How do you keep the mind from seeking pleasure? The Buddha found the solution to that problem through "Right Concentration". When the mind is in deep concentration, there is an arising of pleasure of purity....this pleasure of purity is last longer than any physical pleasure: such as eating, drinking, sex, or seeing of beautiful object. It last as long as you are in deep concentration. So this practice offer mental pleasure to put, and you gain temporary suspended from past conditioning (kilesa); however, when you got out of deep concentration, you still face with present conditioning (asava) of your daily life.

So the Buddha found another solution to the problem. It is called wisdom. Wisdom will cut through present conditioning (asava). In order to develop wisdom, there is a tool called "right mindfulness".

You will see those tools in the "Eight Fold Path". All those things are within the "Four Noble Truth".

I hope you see some truths in "The Four Noble Truth".

Best Regards;

Johnny

[bentoak]

To those who claim there is no absolute truth, I say you can not possibly believe that.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by bentoak

To those who claim there is no absolute truth, I say you can not possibly believe that.

Winner: Most ironic statement of the day!

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by bentoak

To those who claim there is no absolute truth, I say you can not possibly believe that.

There may be absolute truth but we are not in a position to know what it is.

See: quantum reality, subjective reality, objective reality etc. - and we know how those discussions have gone!

[Howie17]

The Truth was taught by the Buddha called "The Four Noble Truths". Learn and practice it accordingly you will understand truths and realities. There are two kinds of realities in existence. Conventional reality and ultimate reality. Conventional reality is impermanent, and ultimate reality is permanent. There is a book called Abhidhamma "Detail of Sequence of Consequences". This book is telling you the details of conventional reality and ultimate reality in detail.

Let share some truth about beings that are in the flesh. These beings enjoyed and addicted physical pleasure. For example, we are enjoy eating, drinking, playing, seeing, discussing, talking, having sex, owning things.

Because these pleasures are not permanent, that is why the mind of all beings are constantly wandering.....wandering to find pleasure and escaping from pain.

The Buddha found the solution to this problem....it is the "Four Noble Truths"

How do you keep the mind from seeking pleasure? The Buddha found the solution to that problem through "Right Concentration". When the mind is in deep concentration, there is an arising of pleasure of purity....this pleasure of purity is last longer than any physical pleasure: such as eating, drinking, sex, or seeing of beautiful object. It last as long as you are in deep concentration. So this practice offer mental pleasure to put, and you gain temporary suspended from past conditioning (kilesa); however, when you got out of deep concentration, you still face with present conditioning (asava) of your daily life.

So the Buddha found another solution to the problem. It is called wisdom. Wisdom will cut through present conditioning (asava). In order to develop wisdom, there is a tool called "right mindfulness".

You will see those tools in the "Eight Fold Path". All those things are within the "Four Noble Truth".

I hope you see some truths in "The Four Noble Truth".

Best Regards;

Johnny

Would you say, "Detail of Sequence of Consequences" is the best place (or just a good place) to start understanding these Buddhist teachings? That of the "Eight Fold Path" & "The Four Noble Truth"? If so, I'm all about picking it up. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

[Chado2423]

Originally Posted by Angela

Howie, I had a thread sometime ago looking to see if there was an Ultimate Truth that we could all agree to, and it was clear that there was no such thing, even among us Pavliniacs.

LOL, Pavliniac, is that what I am? glad you clarified that for me... Anyway, in all seriousness I agree, there is no absolute truth that all of us can agree to, except one, and that is just that... that there is no absolute truth that all us can agree to... that alone is the only truth we can absolutely agree on, without fail.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Chado2423

LOL, Pavliniac, is that what I am? glad you clarified that for me... Anyway, in all seriousness I agree, there is no absolute truth that all of us can agree to, except one, and that is just that... that there is no absolute truth that all us can agree to... that alone is the only truth we can absolutely agree on, without fail.

Even that one we can't all agree to! Did you see bentoak's message, that says I "cannot possibly believe there is no ultimate truth"? No absolute truth, no absolute time, no absolute authority, no meaning other than the meaning we create; that works for me.

Pavliniacs, pavlinians, pavlinoids, pavlinants, pavlina's dogs (who salivate at the sound of personal development), pavlinarexics, pavlinalooneys.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Howie17

There are many interpretations of truth, I think it is the cause of many religious constructs in existence today. At the core of it all, life in general, what is truth?

"Truth is that which sets you free." It is a moving target but at the core it stays the same in effect. There may be many different truths along the way to becoming whole and each truth may not actually have to be a specific thing to believe forever. What truth has to do to be true is to set you free - or to make you open up and feel more connected and alive. If believeing a certain belief helps you, then it is true for you while it helps you. I don't know, something like that or just trying on a differnt angle on this TRUTH thing here.

[Clarity]

Jesus said, "I am the Truth".

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Clarity

Jesus said, "I am the Truth".

Lots of people say "I am the Truth."

[Clarity]

Who would you rather believe then? A 2000 year messiah who is still followed today, or some guru?

Actually I've never heard others say I am the truth except maybe someone trying to give themselves an affirmation which is hokey.

That statement "The truth will set you free" is also misinterpreted. It is Biblical and when in context what is The Truth the truth is Jesus, so who sets you free - Jesus. When we seek the truth if we are seeking it from him, he will reveal it. If we seek it elsewhere we are given false messages.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Clarity

Who would you rather believe then? A 2000 year messiah who is still followed today, or some guru?

You seem to imply I must believe someone who tells me he is the truth, and that Jesus is the better choice. But I wouldn't believe anyone who told me he "is the truth." Talk about hokey.

However, I am far more likely to believe what someone tells me if that person actually exists. That would definitely be a swaying point for me.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Clarity

Who would you rather believe then? A 2000 year messiah who is still followed today, or some guru?

Was Jesus's message to follow him and only him? Or isn't his message that one can connect to God just as he himself did? In other words in false idols and the connection is within oneself.

Actually I've never heard others say I am the truth except maybe someone trying to give themselves an affirmation which is hokey.

That statement "The truth will set you free" is also misinterpreted. It is Biblical and when in context what is The Truth the truth is Jesus, so who sets you free - Jesus. When we seek the truth if we are seeking it from him, he will reveal it. If we seek it elsewhere we are given false messages.

Are you saying that "the truth will set you free" is not to be taken as saying that which is true creates more freedom?

Are you also saying that anything other than Jesus is not true and thus not liberating?

[Michael Chui]

Truth and reality are synonyms. One is usually lofty, and the other usually cynical. Substituting them for each other produces the same meaning with different implications.

Also:

I am the Truth.

Incidentally, I get walked on while people are going somewhere, since I'm the Way, and people switch me off at night when they go to bed, since I'm the Light, and nasty things are done in the dark.