What is Truth?

[Clarity]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Was Jesus's message to follow him and only him? Or isn't his message that one can connect to God just as he himself did? In other words in false idols and the connection is within oneself.
Yes, Wolfgang, his message was to follow only him. But...there is always free choice. You can reject him, just as those that crucified him did.

I'm not following the falls idol thing, but God in the Holy Bible says Thou shall have no other God's before me that would include brazen idols and making oneself a god.


Are you saying that "the truth will set you free" is not to be taken as saying that which is true creates more freedom?
Very good question. I am saying God/Jesus has a supernatural enablement to reveal truth like no other. As for other truth of course telling the truth is always best. Thou shall not lie. I would be interested to hear, however, an example of how that which is true creates freedom. I do know that accepting responsibility creates freedom as we are then able to realize it is our choices that make a difference.
Are you also saying that anything other than Jesus is not true and thus not liberating?

Again, I am saying Jesus provides ultimate liberation. Many things mimic his power.

[Michael Chui]

Are you talking about truth, or are you talking about Jesus? The latter isn't really a part of this thread's topic.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Clarity

Very good question. I am saying God/Jesus has a supernatural enablement to reveal truth like no other. As for other truth of course telling the truth is always best. Thou shall not lie. I would be interested to hear, however, an example of how that which is true creates freedom. I do know that accepting responsibility creates freedom as we are then able to realize it is our choices that make a difference.

If you are saying God/Jesus reveals truth like no other - is this just saying God/Jesus is an optimized way to truth but not really the only way?

You kind of answered how truth creates freedom. Accepting responsibility is a form of truth - like there are no lies when you are responsible. Lies generate the opposite of freedom - one becomes a slave to keeping the secrets.

There could be truths that help us grow up. Like when someone stops beliving they don't have the right to speak up, or that they aren't beautiful, or any other limiting behaviourial belief is not producing freedom. Once the truth is experienced (that you can speak up or that you are beautiful) you become more whole and grow up some because of the truth.

[Cantando]

If God is the great unknowable and Christ is the Logos, the Word of God, that which says "I AM", then any of us who are on the spiritual path are, by default, true Christians, since we are trying to allow the flow of Christ, who is source energy and love, into ourselves.

The powers that be in Christianity and the other world faith religions know this, but only impart a fragment of this truth to their followers. They basically want to keep others in control through fear and the threat of eternal punishment.

Each of us has full access to the truth and the flow of love and joy (Christ) from Source/God right now. We just have to remove the blinkers from our eyes (fossilized beliefs and resistance).

It may help some to read the bible or practice rituals, but it is not really necessary.

No one can reveal the truth to us. No one is going to come down and save us. We automatically experience the truth when we ourselves see through our self-created, fear-based illusions, and, unfortunately, that includes many religious beliefs.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Cantando

If God is the great unknowable and Christ is the Logos, the Word of God, that which says "I AM", then any of us who are on the spiritual path are, by default, true Christians, since we are trying to allow the flow of Christ, who is source energy and love, into ourselves.

It seems that once you go to a meta level with Christ, it's not a specific logos.

The powers that be in Christianity and the other world faith religions know this, but only impart a fragment of this truth to their followers. They basically want to keep others in control through fear and the threat of eternal punishment.

How do other religions motivate through fear but you say Christianity doesn't? Isn't Christianity based on saying we are born sinners and must be saved or be damned to hell? Is that not a fear based motivation?

Each of us has full access to the truth and the flow of love and joy (Christ) from Source/God right now. We just have to remove the blinkers from our eyes (fossilized beliefs and resistance).

It may help some to read the bible or practice rituals, but it is not really necessary.

No one can reveal the truth to us. No one is going to come down and save us. We automatically experience the truth when we ourselves see through our self-created, fear-based illusions, and, unfortunately, that includes many religious beliefs.

I see it this way too. Truth is that which unburdens you and allows your true nature at the present moment to be realized and enjoyed, where ever you are in growth.

[Howie17]

Isn't Christianity based on saying we are born sinners and must be saved or be damned to hell?

No.

Try reading the Bible without looking for evidence to prove your prejudices.

[Clarity]

[I]Lies generate the opposite of freedom - one becomes a slave to keeping the secrets.
There could be truths that help us grow up. Like when someone stops beliving they don't have the right to speak up, or that they aren't beautiful, or any other limiting behaviourial belief is not producing freedom. Once the truth is experienced (that you can speak up or that you are beautiful) you become more whole and grow up some because of the truth.[/i]

I agree with you. When a person is shown their "mistaken thinking" and chooses to believe the truth (cognitive therapy), they are free and there is joy.

When I coach a client I ask them to seek "God's truth" which would be as you have said, that they are "not slaves", that they are "beautiful", etc. as opposed to lies they have believed from ingrained environmental influences, their own voices or lies from Satan.

[I]It may help some to read the bible or practice rituals, but it is not really necessary.[/I]

In defence of the necessity of Bible reading. Some people believe the Bible is just a book and reading it a ritual. Those that have the Holy Spirit consult him and he speaks to them as they read and the words become not only alive, but pertinent to the situation they are in. This is why you see Christians re-reading this book over and over. One can read a passage and with the Holy Spirit's guidance get fresh insight each time. Those that don't have the Holy Spirit may not find this to be true. Mystics consult their mediums in a similar manner which I feel is a counterfeit of the real thing - stemming from a syncretic system of beliefs having its source in Babylon, a combination of human reason aided by demonic spirits and astrological prognostication.

[I]The powers that be in Christianity and the other world faith religions know this, but only impart a fragment of this truth to their followers. They basically want to keep others in control through fear and the threat of eternal punishment.[/I]


The key work here is "they". Of course there is spiritual abuse prevalent. This is why we are not to follow a leader or a religion, but our faith and as Christians Christ. We are always to check out for ourselves the truth. Why would we become dependent on "the powers that be"? Perhaps that is the blockage.

As for the [i]threat of eternal punishment [i] they are merely quoting Jesus Matthew 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" God created hell, not Christians. They feel it is their duty to tell others or as Wolfgang has put it 90% of the population won't know.

[i]
No one can reveal the truth to us.[/I] I'm not sure about this. Counsellors do it all the time. As for ultimate truth many of us believe God is Omniscience: This term means God knows all things, past, present, future and possible Some of us believe God reveals truth to us through our mind focused on him, through prayer, through others he brings in our path, through is word as it is written in the Holy Bible.

How do other religions motivate through fear but you say Christianity doesn't? Isn't Christianity based on saying we are born sinners and must be saved or be damned to hell? Is that not a fear based motivation?

Yes it is fearful - Godly fear, but some would also say it is truth, it is warning. It is like your counsellor saying "there is a reality in life in the kitchen, stoves are hot, that's the way they were created, I want to warn you out of love, that if you choose to put your hand on the burner, you will burn. I know this frustrates you and you don't want to believe this, but this is the way it is. The safest and best thing for you is to accept my gift of an insulated oven mit that I'm offering you for free, that is for your own good an protection. Not only will you then be able to survive in the kitchen, you will bake some wonderful brownies and pies. I'm telling you the truth."

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Howie17

No.

Try reading the Bible without looking for evidence to prove your prejudices.

Hmm... what does the bible say then about Jesus saves us? Why do we need to be "saved"?

If the stove is hot and my mother tells me not to touch it - do I know that it's hot for myself? I need to experience the heat and danger of that stove for myself or I really never really know it's hot - I'll just think it is and I'll be carrying a belief that is really someone esle's (even though it may be a true belief).

Telling me I need to believe in Jesus to not go to hell - well why is it only through Jesus? It's a warning message to believe something or else we suffer in the afterlife? And the warning is what? To believe Jesus saved our souls for us as long as we believe something the Jesus is the only way to connect to God? Or that without Jesus specifically we go to hell?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Clarity

The powers that be in Christianity and the other world faith religions know this, but only impart a fragment of this truth to their followers. They basically want to keep others in control through fear and the threat of eternal punishment.

The key work here is "they". Of course there is spiritual abuse prevalent. This is why we are not to follow a leader or a religion, but our faith and as Christians Christ. We are always to check out for ourselves the truth. Why would we become dependent on "the powers that be"? Perhaps that is the blockage.

Not to follow a leader or a religion - except for the religion you have found. Christianity has a way of sounding exclusive, believe this and only this or you wont get on the mother ship. If Jesus is a powerful connection that is a spirit we can connect to ,as well as God directly ourselves, then that's fine with me. Although, why would Jesus want to lock out other powerful wise spirits? Or why the need for a middle man to God? Wasn't part of Jesus's teachings to say - we don't need presists and animal sacrafices to connect to God and you can go through me too but you can also go direct yourself?

[Cantando]

We cannot really grasp absolutes (well, not in this lifetime anyway), like the absolute truth, happiness and evil.
Whatever religion or beliefs we adhere to is fine (from my pov) as long as they make us feel joyful, empowered and connected to source/God/universe/consciousness or whatever we want to label it.

Wherever we are in our consciousness/spiritual development, we hold what we believe to be true. Everyone's reality is true for them.

If you are on some remote island somewhere, offering gifts to your local deity and you feel happy and joyful, that's great. That is your current truth.

The only thing I might advise is that, wherever you are, watch your thoughts and feelings. If you start to feel less joyful and optimistic, move over to a happier thought and a nicer feeling, before the negative ones take hold and send you on a downward spiral towards depression.

There is no difference between the true messages of new age beliefs and the true teachings of Christianity. The essence of both is the same - to grow and expand joyfully, fulfilling our desires, united with source/God. That is what we should focus on - not on the limiting differences.

Oh, and by the way, I am a dyslexic devil worshipper. I sold my soul to Santa!

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Oh, and by the way, I am a dyslexic devil worshipper. I sold my soul to Santa!

So very wrong on so many levels.

[Clarity]

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If the stove is hot and my mother tells me not to touch it - do I know that it's hot for myself? I need to experience the heat and danger of that stove for myself or I really never really know it's hot - I'll just think it is and I'll be carrying a belief that is really someone esle's (even though it may be a true belief).QUOTE]

The problem is that we are talking about the spiritual realm. You can't go and touch or look into hell. None of us can. We also can't go back in history to the days when Jesus walked on the earth.

Telling me I need to believe in Jesus to not go to hell - well why is it only through Jesus? It's a warning message to believe something or else we suffer in the afterlife? And the warning is what? To believe Jesus saved our souls for us as long as we believe something the Jesus is the only way to connect to God? Or that without Jesus specifically we go to hell?[/

Well this is the way God made it happen in my belief system. We can only ask him. Have you watched The Christmas Movie that came out last year? It is helpful in understanding some of this.

Also I would challenge you to look for an "Alpha" course in your area where these types of questions can be challenged.


Everyone's reality is true for them.


True to the level of their investigation and learning and to the level of their choice. Some people, for instance my friend Jeff. He doesn't educate his children in any "faith" saying he will let his kids decide when they are older. When they are older how can they decide anything if they haven't been exposed? It is highly unlikely that at age 21 they will just start going into synagogues or churches to check things out on their own.

There is no difference between the true messages of new age beliefs and the true teachings of Christianity. The essence of both is the same - to grow and expand joyfully, fulfilling our desires, united with source/God. That is what we should focus on - not on the limiting differences.

The difference I see is that the New Age beliefs are a mimic counterfeit of the real thing and devoid in POWER. Those with the Holy Spirit have access to his power 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's[new age] wisdom, but on God's power.
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."


And, yes, this is ugly and scarry but here is a last thought. Not to deviate from the topic of "truth". The question is, is it wrong for some to believe this is true?

Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Clarity

And, yes, this is ugly and scarry but here is a last thought. Not to deviate from the topic of "truth". The question is, is it wrong for some to believe this is true?

Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

No, but it is wrong to abuse children by telling them this is The Truth.

[Clarity]

Children need something to believe in like a Perfect God. It adds security to their life, especially in light of the fact many parents fail.

How is it abuse if the God we teach them about is loving caring and will protect them?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Clarity

Children need something to believe in like a Perfect God. It adds security to their life, especially in light of the fact many parents fail.

How is it abuse if the God we teach them about is loving caring and will protect them?

Children, or immature adults? Children do not need security, of all things. They need permission.