a question from christians

[yasi_joy]

why does christianity consider tarot cards and psychic help bad?
isn't it just helping you to find your way easier through life?
if tarot cards lead you to whats best for you and warns you from what which will cause you harm why does it have to be bad??

thank you

[tropicality]

I think we should all remember why christianity was heavily promoted in its early stages. I think that some of the strong original ideas associated with it are still here today. For example, its something we all learned in school, Galileo and others, who were locked up because of their ideas. Christian clergy said NO! and locked them up.

I think that is why the resentment to tarot cards and the likes exists today, it is deeply rooted.

That is just my opinion.

[Josip]

Tarot can lead you and tell you what is best for you?

How cards do that?

I think it is only superstition, tarot is useful only for fun. But, what cards "tell" you can change your thoughts and thoughts can change your behavior, behavior can change your so called "destiny".

In fact, there is no "destiny" or "talking cards" or horoscope or magic etc., it is only your beliefs encourage your action.

As Henry Ford said; "If you think you can, or you think you can't, you are right."

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by yasi_joy

why does christianity consider tarot cards and psychic help bad?
isn't it just helping you find your way easier through life?
if tarot cards lead you to whats best for you and warns you from what which will cause you har why does it have to be bad??

thank you

I believe the Catholic Church's stance, based on Biblical warnings against using mediums (even though King Saul did), was that they're openings for demonic possession.

Regarding "find your way easier through life", it would be wiser to determine your own purpose, rather than asking someone else or a deck of cards for the answers.

[dorothy hanna]

For those who are aware of the secret, the history of organized religion shows that it quite deliberatly sought to suppress the secret. Those involved sought to hide, and coveted the secret for themselves. This secret is what Jesus taught.
They enslaved people to ignorance, and misinformation, and placed themselves betweeb people, and their creative power, by telling them horror stories, making them fearful of demonic poseesion, hell fire damnation etc...

In other ways, warning people to not waste their time on things that are fruitless, time wasting, money wasting etc...due to ignorance, and superstition isn't a bad thing. But, the Church, and many others capitalized on peoples ignorance, and desperation, and fear. Jesus sought to set people free of this, and was killed for it. But, great news. The secret survived, as Jesus promised in the first place. THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!

Once you know the truth, the sacred secret, as Jesus put it, you will not go back to ingnorance, as you see THRUTH, all around you, always.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by dorothy hanna

For those who are aware of the secret, the history of organized religion shows that it quite deliberatly sought to suppress the secret. Those involved sought to hide, and coveted the secret for themselves. This secret is what Jesus taught.
They enslaved people to ignorance, and misinformation, and placed themselves betweeb people, and their creative power, by telling them horror stories, making them fearful of demonic poseesion, hell fire damnation etc...

In other ways, warning people to not waste their time on things that are fruitless, time wasting, money wasting etc...due to ignorance, and superstition isn't a bad thing. But, the Church, and many others capitalized on peoples ignorance, and desperation, and fear. Jesus sought to set people free of this, and was killed for it. But, great news. The secret survived, as Jesus promised in the first place. THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!

Once you know the truth, the sacred secret, as Jesus put it, you will not go back to ingnorance, as you see THRUTH, all around you, always.

I've always been wary of claims of "I have the truth". So, I ask you this before I criticize: what is your source? What is the basis for your statements? And please use fewer exclamation points.

[carl]

Originally Posted by yasi_joy

why does christianity consider tarot cards and psychic help bad?
isn't it just helping you find your way easier through life?
if tarot cards lead you to whats best for you and warns you from what which will cause you har why does it have to be bad??

This would be my guess:

There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deuteronomy 18:10 (KJV)

Diviniation (of which Tarot is a form) is considered an abomination.

[placebo]

they say that the most important thing they do is helping people. So if someone is told by tarot lady that he will be happy, he don't have right to feel happy. Beacause church didn't tell him that than some lady? Sounds like pure monopoly

[Richful]

Originally Posted by dorothy hanna

For those who are aware of the secret, the history of organized religion shows that it quite deliberatly sought to suppress the secret. Those involved sought to hide, and coveted the secret for themselves. This secret is what Jesus taught.
They enslaved people to ignorance, and misinformation, and placed themselves betweeb people, and their creative power, by telling them horror stories, making them fearful of demonic poseesion, hell fire damnation etc...

In other ways, warning people to not waste their time on things that are fruitless, time wasting, money wasting etc...due to ignorance, and superstition isn't a bad thing. But, the Church, and many others capitalized on peoples ignorance, and desperation, and fear. Jesus sought to set people free of this, and was killed for it.

If by "The Secret" you mean intention manifestation and the like well the Tarot is a symbolic "how to" manual for just that... and more. The angels on the cards are actually the holy archangels Ariel, Gabriel, Michael and Raphael. One of the cards now known as The Heirophant has been known as The Pope.
The symbolism itself agrees with the bible, but not church doctrine.
Any path of self knowledge is a threat to established religious doctrine.

Fortune tellers aren't all sweetness and light either, within such communities plenty of stories abound of occult gurus who abuse their disciples. IMO divination can only tell u where u are and where u might be if the current course continues. Tarot can be put to use in better ways

I guess the devil is the sticking point with occult stuff. Christianity believes the big bad one is the source of occult forces and he's evil itself, so occult is evil. Funny really, in the Tarot the devil is the force that binds you, but ultimately the force that sets you free.

[Dbarker]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I've always been wary of claims of "I have the truth". So, I ask you this before I criticize: what is your source? What is the basis for your statements? And please use fewer exclamation points.

This seemed to resonate with me and reminded me of a chapter in William Bach's book "One." In it, the main characters encounter a cleric and the three "see the light," so to speak. The one character wishes to write down "the truth" and take it back to the people. The cleric asks questions like, "will you allow anyone to change it?" and "who will keep it from being changed?" etc. It goes to the root of religion versus spirituality. People resort to violence to either defend or spread their religion when spirituality, in its purest form, does not promote such violence.

[Michael Chui]

Incidentally, when I read about Kabbalah (book referenced in signature), it had a few remarks about astrology, as characterized by God's conversation with Abraham and the stars. This was interpreted to mean that, while the rest of humanity would be enslaved to the sovereignty of the stars, the Jewish people would be free of their influence. That is to say, they would have free will.

Divination can be interpreted, thusly, as a surrender of that gift. A thought.

[nyxalpha]

Tarot cards and other forms of divination are inherently spiritual. The 10 commandments state that you shall have no other gods before me. By seeking counsel and knowledge through divination you are putting it before God himself. You might ask then why should Christians seek help from anything, becauase that would inexplicablely put that person or thing before God. I think the reason that divination is condemned specifically is because it claims spiritual knowledge as well as connections in the spiritual world that God never intended there to be. I myself believe that "black magic" such as tarot cards do indeed work, but only because they are empowered by Lucifier. Simple objects can have no power. As CS Lewis would say, we are living in enemy occupied territory.

Tarot cards seek to take from God what is his. An they "work" to a certain extent I am sure. Yet the path of life as a "Christian" (I prefer follower of Jesus), is not supposed to be easy, it is the "strait and narrow path."

[Richful]

Originally Posted by nyxalpha

I think the reason that divination is condemned specifically is because it claims spiritual knowledge as well as connections in the spiritual world that God never intended there to be. I myself believe that "black magic" such as tarot cards do indeed work, but only because they are empowered by Lucifier. Simple objects can have no power. As CS Lewis would say, we are living in enemy occupied territory.

Tarot cards seek to take from God what is his. An they "work" to a certain extent I am sure. Yet the path of life as a "Christian" (I prefer follower of Jesus), is not supposed to be easy, it is the "strait and narrow path."

Simple objects have no power? Is my toaster empowered by Lucifer too?
Is a faith healing gods or lucifers power? Some consider that "magic".
Does that make intention maniestation the devil's work?
Sorry for the sarcasm but a lot of people met gruesome deaths at the hands of "christians" (I don't consider anyone christian who kills others) because of similar ideas.

[KittyG]

One word: Idolatry

[KittyG]

One word:Idolatry . .from Christian Wikipedia,

Idolatry, in Christian theology, is "the worship of a created object (either made by human hands or created by God" rather than worship one would give to the true God Himself. The term "idol" often refers to conceptual constructs such as fame, money, nationality, ethnicity, and the ritual of attachment related to these is considered idolatry. Because a knowledge of God is supposed to transcend the conceptual, residing instead within people's emotional understanding, the theological concept of idolaty is related to the psychological concept of attachment.


My dearest of friends, Erykah Badu says it well in her song:
" . . Most intellects do not believe in God but they fear him just the same . ."


A pastor once said to an atheist; "If there was a God would you want to know him?"
Good question.

Kat

[Adam]

There are a couple of things that I would like to point out real quick...

Non-Christians: The answer "because that is how I interpret the Bible" is a perfectly valid one to this question. The question was why they believe that divinations tools are evil. If the question didn't include the word 'believe,' then there would be a very hot debate in here, indeed, because the definition of evil is a very subjective one. Please keep in mind that these people are sharing their beliefs, not forcing them down your throat.

Christians: Not everybody believes in the concept of a devil. Personally, it is an extremely alien concept. I'm not saying that you should stop trying to help people, but the argument that if someone doesn't shape up, they'll go to hell doesn't hold any weight if that person doesn't believe in hell to begin with. Keep that in mind, and you'll have much more success in inter-religious debates.

There are a lot of good comments on both side... Please, though, try not to attack anyone's beliefs directly. Using the words "my opinion is" goes a *very* long way in getting your point across without people getting defensive.

[yasi_joy]

black magic is totally seprate from tarot cards

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by KittyG

One word:Idolatry . .from Christian Wikipedia,

Idolatry, in Christian theology, is "the worship of a created object (either made by human hands or created by God" rather than worship one would give to the true God Himself. The term "idol" often refers to conceptual constructs such as fame, money, nationality, ethnicity, and the ritual of attachment related to these is considered idolatry. Because a knowledge of God is supposed to transcend the conceptual, residing instead within people's emotional understanding, the theological concept of idolaty is related to the psychological concept of attachment.

FYI, Kat: you can edit your own posts. There's an Edit button next to the Quote button.

When you say "Christian theology", do you include Catholic doctrine? How about Mormonism? When you say "worship", where is the line between healthy respect, veneration, and worship? When you say "created object", do you include the Bible or any other purportedly authoritative reference material (such as the Christian Wikipedia)?

Also, what is the basis for the placement of "emotional understanding" above "conceptual understanding"?

[KittyG]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

FYI, Kat: you can edit your own posts. There's an Edit button next to the Quote button.

When you say "Christian theology", do you include Catholic doctrine? How about Mormonism? When you say "worship", where is the line between healthy respect, veneration, and worship? When you say "created object", do you include the Bible or any other purportedly authoritative reference material (such as the Christian Wikipedia)?

Also, what is the basis for the placement of "emotional understanding" above "conceptual understanding"?

Michael,
As I said, the definition is from Christian Wikipedia . .

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by KittyG

Michael,
As I said, the definition is from Christian Wikipedia . .

Post a link?

And shouldn't you be able to answer these questions yourself?

[Richful]

Idolatry, in Christian theology, is "the worship of a created object (either made by human hands or created by God" rather than worship one would give to the true God Himself. The term "idol" often refers to conceptual constructs such as fame, money, nationality, ethnicity, and the ritual of attachment related to these is considered idolatry. Because a knowledge of God is supposed to transcend the conceptual, residing instead within people's emotional understanding, the theological concept of idolaty is related to the psychological concept of attachment.

Tarot cards aren't meant to be worshiped, they are a tool. IMO a tool or discipline for communion with god. Prayer is also a tool/discipline for the same purpose.
Last week in Brisbane all the church leaders got together to pray for rain as we're in a serious drought. I heard a sermon (on TV) about how prayer matures over time from asking for stuff to alligning yourself with gods will, Tarot is the same.
Incidentally it did rain, a lot, yesterday we had a storm which blew the roofs of several churches.

[Dbarker]

Originally Posted by KittyG

Idolatry, in Christian theology, is "the worship of a created object (either made by human hands or created by God" rather than worship one would give to the true God Himself. The term "idol" often refers to conceptual constructs such as fame, money, nationality, ethnicity, and the ritual of attachment related to these is considered idolatry.

A famous Zen saying: If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha. IMO, attachment to anything, even to the "idea" of God is still attachment. Our thoughts and perceptions influence what we see as reality and we create God based on those thoughts and perceptions. There is no way to describe God; however, we may experience it.

Originally Posted by Adam

There are a lot of good comments on both side... Please, though, try not to attack anyone's beliefs directly. Using the words "my opinion is" goes a *very* long way in getting your point across without people getting defensive.

Good points Adam, and thanks for the advice.

[dorothy hanna]

Hi Michael Chui,
Your wariness of what I wrote, is understandable. Your question asking about my source reference, ("What is your source"?) reminds me how the Pharasees asked Jesus, ("By whay authority, do you speak?")

[Erin Pavlina]

Quick aside, but related. When I came out publicly that I am a medium someone I had known for years wrote to me and told me she could no longer have any contact with me or anything else that I was involved in because I was a satan worshipper. I was shocked to say the least. She said her Christian beliefs told her that I could not possibly have access to future information unless it came from Satan, and therefore I was to be avoided at all costs.

It was eye opening for me. I had no idea there were people out there who would see my divine gifts as evil.

[ditto]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Quick aside, but related. When I came out publicly that I am a medium someone I had known for years wrote to me and told me she could no longer have any contact with me or anything else that I was involved in because I was a satan worshipper. I was shocked to say the least. She said her Christian beliefs told her that I could not possibly have access to future information unless it came from Satan, and therefore I was to be avoided at all costs.

It was eye opening for me. I had no idea there were people out there who would see my divine gifts as evil.

I'm surprised that they did this too. I'm Christian, but I don't agree with disassociating yourself from somebody because they're doing something like this. My beliefs on this issue are summed up in this maxim: "Love the sinner and hate the sin." (St. Augustine)

[MindReality]

Many symbols in this world are neither good nor evil. They are neutral.

All the symbols of the tarrot cards are purely symbolic. There is a certain order to it that is based on divine wisdom.

Both the powers of good and evil can make use of symbols. It is the intent of the user that makes something good or evil.

As for the psychic ability to access future information, I do not give credit to the devil as the source of such ability.

I am a Christian but I do not consider psychic ability as satanic or of the devil.

The truth is, even the devil is using power that comes from the source (God).

How can the devil use God's power? Well, the explaination to such a mystery can be found at:

The Universal and Personal Aspect of God » Secrets of Mind and Reality

Hence, psychic ability is truly available for all beings of higher consciousness to develop and use. It is a natural ability that we all possess.

[Hsiang-Lin]

Wow, Erin, that is astounding.

Whenever I hear stories about these people I always get angry as they just serve to further enforce reasonable people to go further away from religion.

I believe in a higher spirit/order/God, but not anything that would dictate me to follow set rituals and traditions. I believe some practices are good for the mind and body, but I believe any religion that forces people to do things to show veneration is at once going to run into trouble.

That is why I embrace Buddhism in the sense that it is a lifestyle and the most tolerant religion in my opinion. Of course, there are various sects and types of Buddhism, but the one I espouse is the one that is the most tolerant and forgiving of others. In fact, I see personal development as a religion much like Steve does.

Arrrgh! So-called religious people sometimes really piss me off. They think they are furthering their cause when all they're doing is being ignorant and too caught up in their beliefs. Sigh...

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by dorothy hanna

Hi Michael Chui,
Your wariness of what I wrote, is understandable. Your question asking about my source reference, ("What is your source"?) reminds me how the Pharasees asked Jesus, ("By whay authority, do you speak?")

Fair comparison. So I'll put it this way: how am I supposed to thus differentiate between your words and the Prince of Lies' words? What is it that proves to me your words are true? This is the quandary you present me with, with your secret knowledge and carefree declarations.

The question put to Jesus was not about the authority of his words, but the authority by which he performed his actions. How many evil spirits have you driven out, lately? Put a different way, how many have I? Why do I have less authority than you? Not that I am using what authority I might have... But you have, after all, no miracles to demonstrate a mandate from God, or do you?

When the question was asked of Jesus, he actually answered it.

[Zach]

I, personally, don't do anything with tarot cards and the like because I don't need to. I don't have the kind of questions like, "What is my purpose in life?" or "Why do I exist?" because I have trust in God to lead me down the right path. I don't waste time worrying because I have faith..

I certainly don't consider people who use tarot cards and other similar things to be "satan worshipers".

[dorothy hanna]

Hi Michael Chui,
Are you looking for the lies, and the Prince of lies, or are you looking for The Truth?

As for what miracles I've performed? I've witnessed, participated in many miracles.
For starters, I've participated in, and co-created the miracle of birth. 3 times. My children, who have brought forth my 8 grandchildren. If you trivialize the miracle of birth, than you trivialize the miracle of God. If you trivialize the miracle of God, you trivialize God. If you trivialize God, then you trivialize yourself, as you are one of Gods miracles.

I am a follower of Christ. Christ taught the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and all that these gifts will bring, and inturn, all that will be made manifest through these things.

Others miracles I've participated in?
I participated in the healing of a dieing goat. All that the veterinarians tried were to no avail. So, I placed my hands on him, and I prayed, "Do with this tiny one, what is Your Will, according to your merciful, loving kindness. According to Your Will, what is what this tiny one needs." I prayed with my hands on the goat for about 15 minutes, all the while, envisioning the merciful, loving kindness (which is The Will Of God), as God is Life, and Love itself. I envisioned God flowing into the goat. After a little while, I envisioned the goat, resting peacefully, (in The Peace Of God). Within that hour, the goat got up, and called for food. I brought him food, and water, and he drank, and he ate, and he wagged his little tail. We both stood there, and just visited awhile, feeling much happiness, and gratitude.

Miracles are all around you. Everyday. Do you see them? Are you participating in the miracles of God? Or do you simply participate in doubt, and question each miracle you see.
Do you want to witness the power of God? Open your eyes. Look and see. See the Power and Miracles of God.

Jesus points The Way, and many just keep looking at His finger.