a question from christians

[Hsiang-Lin]

Wow, interesting perspective dorothy hanna. I never saw it that way. But you may be right, these simple acts we take for granted everyday are indeed miracles! Thanks for the inspiration

[Polonius Funk]

Originally Posted by nyxalpha

Tarot cards and other forms of divination are inherently spiritual. The 10 commandments state that you shall have no other gods before me. By seeking counsel and knowledge through divination you are putting it before God himself.

This is my belief also. A principle of Protestantism is that that you, directly, can speak to God and he will answer. (I know this is a principle of many other beliefs also, but right now we’re in the context of Christianity). So putting any device or person in between that amazing, sacred connection is undesirable.

Originally Posted by Hsiang-Lin

Arrrgh! So-called religious people sometimes really piss me off. They think they are furthering their cause when all they're doing is being ignorant and too caught up in their beliefs. Sigh...

Well, for the sake of fairness, anybody has the potential to be self-righteous. Including any of us! But I definitely do know what you mean!

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by dorothy hanna

Are you looking for the lies, and the Prince of lies, or are you looking for The Truth?

I do not anthropomorphize falsehood anymore than I pretend the Truth is a secret.

Regarding Miracles:

Does this mean that therefore all mothers have the authority of God when giving declarations? Are they always right? If we ever create testtube babies, do we therefore become divine, wielders of miracles by our knowledge of the world?

You state that the Will of God is merciful, loving kindness. In Kabbalah, this is called chesed, and it is called tiphereth, but to balance them, gevurah is required: discipline and restraint. Does not the Will of God include this as well? Why did it leave that goat in the first place, having miraculously entered it when it was born? Why does it leave any animal?

You quoted the Bible to me, and I took it at face value. But instead of answering my question, you instead lecture me about proof yet again. So I ask you again, by what authority do you speak? But since you don't like that question, permit to attempt a different one: how does one acquire the secret truth you profess has been oppressed by organized religion? You allude to a history that reveals the occlusion of the truth; where is it, how did you discover it?

Originally Posted by dorothy hanna

Jesus points The Way, and many just keep looking at His finger.

And now we're likening Jesus to Bruce Lee?

[MindReality]

Originally Posted by dorothy hanna

In other ways, warning people to not waste their time on things that are fruitless, time wasting, money wasting etc...due to ignorance, and superstition isn't a bad thing. But, the Church, and many others capitalized on peoples ignorance, and desperation, and fear. Jesus sought to set people free of this, and was killed for it. But, great news. The secret survived, as Jesus promised in the first place. THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!

Jesus wasn't killed because he sought to set people free. He gave his life for the world. No one could have the power to crucify him except he willingly allowed them to do so. Jesus came to bring salvation from sins to humanity, not just salvation from ignorance.

[KittyG]

I am going to republish my words from another similar thread . .



I believe once you have invited God to live in you (accepted Jesus), he is there for you, a small still quiet voice ever speaking to you. I often pray God will give me ears to hear him. I believe to look to other sources is idolatry. Once you have accepted Jesus, you are forever changed from that moment and he is your idol, the one you worship. I sympathize (with looking to other sources) as we often get impatient, "I want an answer NOW!" when, in fact, God ALWAYS answers you, sometimes the answer is "Wait." This is a difficult answer when you want the answer NOW, when you have something pressing on your heart. I believe that's when you surrender your burdens to God, "Let go and Let God." HE will give you what you need. HE is the only ONE who will give you what you need.
I had an experience when I was 7 or 8 with a friend's Ouiji (sp) board that said I would die at age 15 because of murder . .
I believe God loves you exactly where you're at, practicing non-Christian like things or not.
I am aware this is a highly controversial statement but it is my truth . .
I believe when you have accepted God in life, you have succeeded.
HE will take you from there.
I do not see myself above anyone else, he created us all in his image and we all have the opportunity to be used as an instrument of his truth, love, and light.

Kat

[Michael Chui]

Kat, Dorothy: I respect your beliefs, honestly I do, though it seems clear to me that you do not realize this. In fact, you may both also be right. But neither of you appear to be capable of communicating what truth you may have. I know this little difficulty well; it took me seven years and as many major revisions to communicate the truth I knew I had. And while I have more truth, I continue to struggle to communicate that, too, and it will take me more time and more revisions. But in the meantime, I have taught myself stronger, better, more effective means of communication.

How do I believe you, when you present me with nothing but assertions? How do I believe you, here?

I hear what you say, and I hear a chorus of people who wildly disagree with you, yet saying the same thing. I can hear this chorus because I have heard a multitude of perspectives. And they say you're wrong. And now you join this chorus, the next time I hear this again.

Why are you right?

[Dbarker]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Kat, Dorothy: I respect your beliefs, honestly I do, though it seems clear to me that you do not realize this. In fact, you may both also be right. But neither of you appear to be capable of communicating what truth you may have. I know this little difficulty well; it took me seven years and as many major revisions to communicate the truth I knew I had.

How do I believe you, when you present me with nothing but assertions? How do I believe you, here?

I hear what you say, and I hear a chorus of people who wildly disagree with you, yet saying the same thing. I can hear this chorus because I have heard a multitude of perspectives. And they say you're wrong. And now you join this chorus, the next time I hear this again.

Why are you right?

I agree with you MIchael and yet I have great difficulty putting to words what the truth is. I do feel, however, that I have a sense that I know it when I see, hear, or feel it. And I too would like to know how each person KNOWS what is RIGHT. Quoting the bible or any other human source or text as the "one source" makes me wonder WHY that is the truth and not any other. Because a human in centuries past said so?

What Jesus taught and the evolution of Christianity are not necessarily the same thing. But why ONE? Weren't there other fully enlightened beings throughout history? I ask these things to enlighten myself and others.

[KittyG]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Kat, Dorothy: I respect your beliefs, honestly I do, though it seems clear to me that you do not realize this. In fact, you may both also be right. But neither of you appear to be capable of communicating what truth you may have. I know this little difficulty well; it took me seven years and as many major revisions to communicate the truth I knew I had. And while I have more truth, I continue to struggle to communicate that, too, and it will take me more time and more revisions. But in the meantime, I have taught myself stronger, better, more effective means of communication.

How do I believe you, when you present me with nothing but assertions? How do I believe you, here?

I hear what you say, and I hear a chorus of people who wildly disagree with you, yet saying the same thing. I can hear this chorus because I have heard a multitude of perspectives. And they say you're wrong. And now you join this chorus, the next time I hear this again.

Why are you right?

Michael,

I really don't know what to tell ya because you don't have to believe me . .
For the sake of further sharing, which seems to be what you're seeking . .
I can tell you, I have been traumatized a lot in my life .. victimized by molestation, rape, my mother was abusive and I found my father dead from an overdose 2 years ago on Fathers Day and I was High when I found him; I've battled drug addiction, a hair pulling addiction (trichotillamania) and other stuff.
Like you cannot see Love, but believe it and know it's there, there is sanctification through Christ.
I cannot make you believe.
It is not my intention to MAKE you do anything.
It is not my job to convince you either.
But I can share my story.
My testimony is that the holy spirit was there for me in my deepest darkest hours, when I called upon him.
I would just say have Faith, even if you can't see him.

Good luck in your journey, I believe God has created each one of us perfectly according to his plan.
He has a unique reason for each one of our existence.

Kat

[Michael Chui]

Yet, Kat, I have been there for others in their deepest, darkest, loneliest hours and I have pulled them through to the other end. In mine, I struggled forward until I broke out of the belly of the whale to emerge into the greater land where I was conscious of more than I had ever been before. My conception of God is more enlightening, free, empowering than any conception that has ever been shared with me.

You may believe what you believe, but don't demean others' beliefs as idolatry when you can't defend your own.

If you are right, if your beliefs are true, then the world including myself deserves to have the chance to believe them. This I believe: that belief is not exclusive to the elect, to the chosen. And if you are right, if your beliefs are true, the inability to communicate them is a tragedy. A harrowing story does not a logical argument make: the fallacy is known as Ad Misericordiam.

This is why I have learned to ask first, to ponder what is said, before choosing to agree or disagree. I do not disagree or disbelieve you, Kat; I simply don't believe you. I am still asking, but I don't think I'll get an answer anymore.

[dorothy hanna]

Well spoken, Kitty G. It seems some are talking belirfs, and others are steempting to duscribe their actual experiences, to others who.ve not had the experience of such a miracle.
As Kitty explained. No ones trying to get you to believe.

When I experienced some things, I did so, not because I believed. Many of my beleifs changed due to these experiences, and many were confirmed, and many were magnified.

[dorothy hanna]

Hi Michael,
The inability to affectively communicate ones experience, to one that has not experienced the same, is indeed a tragedy. In turn, the inability to understand is also a tragedy. But the dialouge is a good thing, because their are others, who have the eyes to see, and the ears to hear, and they understand when it is presented, others do not see, and do not hear, and so they do not believe. That just makes them an unbeliever. It has nothing to do with the messege, or the messenger.

[KittyG]

Michael,

I read your reply.

Thanks for responding.


Take care, Michael,

Kat

[Keith]

Originally Posted by KittyG

Like you cannot see Love, but believe it and know it's there, there is sanctification through Christ.

My 2c:

I believe there is sanctification (at the very least in terms of personal transformation). I believe that some people attain it through Christ. I also see no reason to believe that that is the only way to attain it. In fact, the multitude of happy followers of other religions, spiritual paths and philosophies strongly suggests the opposite.

BTW, I bounced off Kitty's comment there, but this is not a criticism of her post.

[taylor]

A little of my thoughts on why Christians usually don't allow Tarot or Psychics:

Think of when the Christian bible was written. The early texts date back around 3,500 years ago. The human population at that point was very primitive, uneducated, and naive. Most early depictions of God are anthropomorphic and focus on sacrifice, death, and suffering, to assuage God's righteous fury. With a significantly spiritually underdeveloped population of people, the probability of finding a genuine psychic who resonates with compassion and love was probably very rare. Imagine the odds of finding an Erin 3,000 years ago! It seems like the early warnings against psychics, mediums, spiritists, etc, were out of concern for the naive people of the time getting suckered in by con artists -- or even worse, a psychic or medium who resonates with an evil energy, attracting guides from the realms of hell to 'help' you.

Even today, phonies abound in the psychic world. There are scores of books in the same vein that talk about the secret codes of so-and-so, or the 13 keys to planet zarbok, the 3rd secret teachings of Enoch, the illuminati's ufo pyramids, etc. Are these really helpful to anyone? No. They're just entertainment. People become enamored with these astral realms and waste lifetimes on them. So why do people go to see psychics? Many go for the same reason people read those books -- entertainment. They want the excitement of someone with 'magical' powers telling their fortune or communicating with strange invisible entities.

I think the psychic stuff can really be a distraction from true spirituality and can easily lead to deception, so I understand and respect the Christian tradition of shunning such practices. At the same time I understand those who out of a genuine intention either to get help or to give it, become involved in this domain. Personally, I think it really matters what your context is for using these tools, and the traditional context for the psychic domain has been negative. So, people are still understandably wary of what they see as demon channeling. A lot of the time it really is just that.

[Hilary]

Within any religion, there are certain accepted authorities that are the acknowledged source of truth. Different branches of Christianity might give different weight to the Bible or to the Church and its ministers, but there has to be some central authority that a religion's adherents have in common, or there wouldn't be much of a religion.

Divination means a personal, unmediated connection with the divine, which is necessarily outside any authority.

The individual nature of each consultation also tends to imply that what's morally right under one set of circumstances might be ill-advised in another. As an I Ching diviner, I find it's very hard to extract a set of 'rules' from practical use of the oracle, except perhaps 'honour truth'. So it's not at all easy to find a place for divination inside religion.

And also, divination implies trusting that some agency will ensure the messages you receive are true. So either you believe in a fundamentally benevolent universe - which isn't a traditional Christian belief - or else you look for some authority to sanction your divination. For instance, there's a Christian tradition of opening the Bible to a random passage to receive a personal message: divination, but from a 'safe' source. (Though it might be safer still to limit this to the NT...)

At school, many of my friends were evangelical Christians. They protested vehemently when another class ran a dream interpretation event: this, they said, was against God. I asked the obvious question - "What about Joseph?" - and was told that his dreams were from God, so they were OK. But our dreams might be from the devil, we couldn't tell, so we should leave them well alone.

I think that could be the key - the idea that 'we can't tell''. Our own intuitions about what is good and true are not to be trusted. So there can't be an unmediated connection with the divine, at least not in the form of specific guidance - all connections, all messages, need 'vetting'.

[yasi_joy]

im veRRYYYYYYYY confusedddd

so if one is christian it cant be spiritiualist ? u should choose one only right ??

[Richful]

Originally Posted by yasi_joy

im veRRYYYYYYYY confusedddd

so if one is christian it cant be spiritiualist ? u should choose one only right ??

You can choose both! Please don't reject either because of all our opinions.
My suggestion:
Talk to a priest about christianity, then Tarot/spiritualism etc.
And
Talk to a Tarot reader/spiritualist, if you can find a good one (by good I mean honest, knowledgable and experienced), about Tarot/spritualism and then about Christianity.

Discuss both topics with both parties, start with their speciality then ask about the controversial one, this way you gain an insight into their path without alienating them.

If you can't find a "good " Tarot reader read anything by Paul Foster Case, he is the best source on Tarot I've come across: B.O.T.A. Home Page

Personally I think the two complement each other IF you get to the heart of the teachings and avoid the "rules".

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Hilary

Within any religion, there are certain accepted authorities that are the acknowledged source of truth. Different branches of Christianity might give different weight to the Bible or to the Church and its ministers, but there has to be some central authority that a religion's adherents have in common, or there wouldn't be much of a religion.

Actually, this isn't necessarily true. Wicca, Buddhism and Taoism (for example) don't seem to need a central authority and they are definitely religions. It seems that it's possible for a religion to be bound together by culture rather than heirarchical structure.

[Hilary]

Yes, sorry, of course you're right. I was brought up a Christian and I got used to equating that with the 'religious' way of thinking.

I should add that there are as many kinds of Christian as blades of grass in the field, and that includes some who have no problem with divination. I've even done readings for one or two.

[Richful]

Hi all,
Wow this thread just keeps going...
Thought it might be a good idea to point out a few Tarot factoids;
Originally it was known as the Game of Man. Why? Because it is a tool to develop humans various abilities, mental, physical, spiritual. For example, the use of attention, memory, imagination, reason and intuition. It is a text book for the Law of Attraction and a guide to Spiritual knowledge of yourself and the macrocosm.
Quite impressive really for the first playing cards...