Fearing God?

[SweetMelissa]

I am having conflicting thoughts on the idea of fearing God. If the ego is responsible for all our fear and misunderstanding, shouldn't we NOT fear God?
I know it greatly depends on personal beliefs (what we each feel God is), but when trying to mesh the spiritual idea that we're all connected and our ego is our biggest enemy, the idea of fearing God somehow doesn't fit for me. Just wondering if anyone had some insight on this.

[Anagogy]

For information on that subject, you should check out A Course In Miracles. Basically, to crudely sum up a mere fraction of its philosophy, we disassociated from god which amounted to a kind of metaphysical attack on God. This created consciousness that involves perception, and made the former state of union with God a mere memory. Now we are on our own, and we experienced the separation in a VERY negative way -- an intense state of guilt and fear (of an imagined wrath from God -- a fate worse than death). This guilt and fear is beyond what any human mind could understand or deal with alone, and sits deep inside our unconscious mind (according to ACIM).

Consciously, we may or may not fear God, but if you put stock in the afformentioned material, the very fact that we continue existing in a world of duality and separation indicates the fear and guilt are still there, denied and projected elsewhere, and this reality (which gives reality to the psychic structure called the ego) is a smoke-screen to hide from our primal fear of God's wrath. You may or may not put any stock in A Course In Miracles, however, I thought I would just throw it out there. It's definitely interesting to read.

[SweetMelissa]

Thank you, Anagogy. I adore ACIM, but haven't had the time to read all of it. My mother and I were discussing this topic today and in our discussion we found that since we as humans naturally "fear the unknown" that fearing God (in the beginning) means you do not know him and so your desire to know him draws you closer.

[Liara Covert]

Anagogy makes great points. ACIM can certainly open one's mind to how to heal separation. Questioning illusions is the first step to undoing them.

Consider ACIM: Chapter 3 INNOCENT PERCEPTION (p.36)

1. A further point must be perfectly clear before any residual fear still associated with miracles can disappear. The crucifixion did not establish the atonement; the ressurrection did. Many sincere Christians have misunderstood this. No one who is free of the belief of scarcity could possibly make this mistake. If the crucifixion is seen from an upside-down point of view, it does appear as if God permitted and even encouraged one of his sons to suffer because he was good. This particularly unfortunate interpretation, which arose out of projection, has led many people to be bitterly afraid of God. Such anti-religios concepts enter into many religions. Yet the real Christian should pause and ask, " How could this be?" Is it likely God himself would be capable of the kind of thinking which His Own words have clearly stated is unworthy of His Son?

[beautyscientist]

Liara, the whole Jesus dieing for my sins, albeit only temporarily, makes no sense to me at all. If God is all powerful why does He need this elaborate exercise to forgive us our sins? Indeed, why not just not make us sinful in the first place?

[Old Soul]

i always interpret fearing God as meaning

Respect, standing in awe.. Revere .....

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by beautyscientist

Liara, the whole Jesus dieing for my sins, albeit only temporarily, makes no sense to me at all. If God is all powerful why does He need this elaborate exercise to forgive us our sins? Indeed, why not just not make us sinful in the first place?

If you read ACIM, beauty, you'll see that it answers the very paradox you bring up. We aren't sinful according to ACIM. We are the part of the Christ Mind that had a tiny mad idea...the idea to go off on our own, and experience separation. Indeed, an important message of ACIM is that God had nothing to do with the creation of this world. This world we live in, of duality and separation, is a projection in order for us to hide from the pain of choosing to work against God. Then we got stuck here -- not because God saw us as sinful or guilty (God doesn't even acknowledge this world as "real"), but because we, ourselves decided that we were guilty. And the only way we can get out is by forgiving ourselves and all the symbols of guilt we have created unconsciously.

[Lychee]

The fear of our ego, if persisted in for a period of time, eventually seeps into our hearts if it is not treated early on. The ego is not our biggest enemy. If it was, we wouldn't have it. The ego is simply a tool that we have to remember is under our control. We cannot have the tool use us.

The phrase "fear God" doesn't necessary mean fear in the "scary" sense, to me. It means a humble acknowledgment of who God is.

Liara, the whole Jesus dieing for my sins, albeit only temporarily, makes no sense to me at all. If God is all powerful why does He need this elaborate exercise to forgive us our sins? Indeed, why not just not make us sinful in the first place?

That is only under the assumption that trinitarian doctrine of Christianity is correct.

[Chinese Dragon]

To paraphrase freehovind.com,

Originally Posted by freehovind.com

God created this world, that means he owns it and he makes the rules. So we better find out who he is and what he wants or we may be in trouble some day.

There is no question that we are guilty of breaking his laws and we're going to be punished, or we need to find a substitute. That's where Jesus comes in. He wants to pay for your sins. If you died today where would you go? You ought to think about that because you're going to be dead for a very long time. Did you know George Washington has been dead for over 200 years and he's still dead?

Jesus is willing and able to pay for your sins. If you repent and turn to God, he will save you.

I think that once a person repents their ego would have no reason to fear God, because if you're saved what's to fear?

[Akashic_Librarian]

In the words of Elbert Hubbard:

"We are gods in the chrysalis."

"Thought is supreme"

Or in other words, WE are God. And don't fear God, or all you will do is make yourself a fearful person.

[wbindia]

If you had the faith and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Lord as Savior as I do, you would not fear God. 2 Timothy 1:7 For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.

Something to think and pray about!

Best-

Wayne

[royster]

Would you fear God for, say....



ONE MILLLLION DOLLARS?

I go with the "respect" comment, and also the ACIM observation...knowing that fear is the opposite of love. RESPECT for what God is capable of, but knowing Love doesn't go that far...usually.

As far as "personal saviors"...yet another "qualification" Freemasons injected into the bible. Jesus did not come to be worshipped or as a meal ticket. He came to show the patterns of thought/behavior/action to higher being.

[wbindia]

I go with the "respect" comment, and also the ACIM observation...knowing that fear is the opposite of love. RESPECT for what God is capable of, but knowing Love doesn't go that far...usually.

As far as "personal saviors"...yet another "qualification" Freemasons injected into the bible. Jesus did not come to be worshipped or as a meal ticket. He came to show the patterns of thought/behavior/action to higher being.

Royster-

As Chinese dragon and I said in our earlier thread-by accepting Jesus Christ alone as your personal Lord as Savior-you and others don't have to fear death, God and Hell. For non-believers-this is a very difficult concept to understand and accept since it is by our FAITH and TRUST in ONLY HIM we are saved. In Man's sinful ways-man has elevated himself to that of God-which is not only incorrect-it's blasphemous to state we are un equal planes as the supreme creator.

God creator of all-created us as well, sent his son (Jesus Christ) to die for all mankinds sins (yours and mine-and every human who was/is ever born) By his redemptive act of dying on the cross HE has removed all our sins-in HIS atonement for all mankind. It's by and through HIS grace and HIS grace alone we are saved.

Our wolrd today states and embraces a demonic culture statang all paths lead to salvation and heaven-but that is incorrect. There is no other name in heaven or under heaven by which we must be saved.

I'll be glad to provide you exact biblical refernces should you desire, but Moonrambler already informed me to not quote bible verses-which would help in providng specific scripture verses re. this. Read HIS word the bible and discover his promise of grace for yourself-or PM me offline if you have other ???

If you have have any more ??? feel free to ask.

Best-

Wayne

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by wbindia

I'll be glad to provide you exact biblical refernces should you desire, but Moonrambler already informed me to not quote bible verses-which would help in providng specific scripture verses re. this.

I did not inform you not to quote Bible verses. I asked you to stop quoting giant lists of Bible verses and filling up pages with them.

If you want to quote a specific Bible verse or two to back up your point, that's fine. Quoting 50 Bible verses, especially when most of them have nothing to do with the subject being discussed, does not contribute to the conversation.

[royster]

Again, you are assuming I am a "non-believer"...by your definition. I am quite happy with my own, well-established definition of what warrants "salvation". The path I am on is derived from basic Christian teachings, which lead to higher awareness. In essence, you're insisting I board a Grayhound bus when I'm booked on a flight...with good seats, incidently. Your basic belief, as it is being expressed here, amounts to superstition and gambling compared to what others have learned. If you're afraid of what I practice spiritually because you 'believe' it means doom for me, I ask you to let go of that fear; I am guided by very good energies, and their influence in my life far surpasses methodical linear-based religion.

I have come to see, firsthand, the pitfalls of such belief systems. Real-life experience has clearly shown me that mere utterances do NOT really address the greater threats of reality, including Hell. Merely 'accepting Jesus as my savior' is not a spiritual path of growth; it is a meal ticket to a vague promise. It also occurs to me (from experience) that one so insistant on looking outward to others as you do indicates a LOT of inner non-maintanence...the very thing meal-ticket religion promotes.

I suppose we can next discuss the fact that Jesus wasn't caucasian, but that would mean millions of bible pamphlets are a conspicuous lie or misrepresentation.

In short, your presentation of eternity is the 9/11 of religions: the "official" story might be right, but there are too many things wrong about it to seriously surrender my free will...and earned insight.

[wbindia]

Again, you are assuming I am a "non-believer"...by your definition. I am quite happy with my own, well-established definition of what warrants "salvation". The path I am on is derived from basic Christian teachings, which lead to higher awareness. In essence, you're insisting I board a Grayhound bus when I'm booked on a flight...with good seats, incidently. Your basic belief, as it is being expressed here, amounts to superstition and gambling compared to what others have learned. If you're afraid of what I practice spiritually because you 'believe' it means doom for me, I ask you to let go of that fear; I am guided by very good energies, and their influence in my life far surpasses methodical linear-based religion.

I have come to see, firsthand, the pitfalls of such belief systems. Real-life experience has clearly shown me that mere utterances do NOT really address the greater threats of reality, including Hell. Merely 'accepting Jesus as my savior' is not a spiritual path of growth; it is a meal ticket to a vague promise. It also occurs to me (from experience) that one so insistant on looking outward to others as you do indicates a LOT of inner non-maintanence...the very thing meal-ticket religion promotes.

I suppose we can next discuss the fact that Jesus wasn't caucasian, but that would mean millions of bible pamphlets are a conspicuous lie or misrepresentation.

In short, your presentation of eternity is the 9/11 of religions: the "official" story might be right, but there are too many things wrong about it to seriously surrender my free will...and earned insight.

Royster-

The only path to salvation is through Christ Himself In John 14:6 Jesus saith, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me... was he wrong? Is this statement of Jesus Christ a misnomer... difficult to understand!

We all know and understand that before the advent of Jesus Christ there was nothing like Christianity that existed on Mother Earth. Around 3600 years before came Lord Krishna, considered an Avatar (manifest God) in Hinduism. About 1500 years later followed Mahavira, the 24th Tirthankara of Jainism.

About 77 years later followed him Gautama Buddha. And finally about 423 years later came Jesus Christ. And with the advent of Jesus Christ... a new religion Christianity was born. What in fact is Christianity? Truthfully Christianity is following the teachings of Jesus Christ. The following of Mahavira is never termed as Christianity or the teachings of Gautama Buddha!

Having cleared the concept that Christianity was born with the advent of Jesus Christ... it rather becomes clear that none before Jesus Christ in Christianity had ever gained enlightenment. And thus spake Jesus Christ in John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me follows.

Mankind snce the beginning of time has been trying to "edify" himself to God status-which is wrong and blasphemous becuase without the saving grace of the Lord Himself-makind is lost. Contrary to New Age GURUS, and world religions, psychics, mystics et al all paths do not lead to the same destination contrary to what teachings you embrace and follow.

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

My question to you Royster and to other "non-believers" what tangible proof do you have that you are going to heaven when you die-because sadly-only "those" who accept Christ's as their personal Lord an Savior will enter into the Kingdom of God-heaven-all others spend eternity in eternal hell torment and damnation.

1. Nature God has revealed certain truths about Himself through nature or the created order. Psalm 19:1-6 states, “The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.” Nature tells everyone about God’s glory and that everything is made by Him.

Romans 1:18-21 declares, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” According to this text, nature reveals that God exists and that He is powerful. This testimony is so powerful that no person can claim that he or she knows nothing about God.


2. Providence God reveals Himself through His moment-by-moment control of the world. This is often referred to as “providence.” God’s providence can be seen in His gracious giving of sunshine and rain to everyone (Matt. 5:45), His providing of food, rain, and gladness for people (Acts 14:15-17), and His installation and removal of world rulers (Daniel 2:21). Providence is one of the ‘quiet’ ways in which God manifests himself. But as we look at history we can see the hand of God if we take the time to notice. The survival of the nation Israel is one such example of God’s providence in action.

3. Conscience God has revealed Himself to everyone through an internal sense of right and wrong. Romans 2:14-15 states that every person has the Law of God “written in their hearts.” This internal compass that alerts us to what is right and wrong points to the Ultimate Lawgiver who determines right and wrong.

This forum is about spiritualiy and consciousness, Romans 2: 14-15 resonates loud and clear every person has the Law of God “written in their hearts This internal compass that alerts us to what is right and wrong points to the Ultimate Lawgiver who determines right and wrong. Without an onimopnent Loving Creator-mankind would not be able to discern between right and wrong-good vs evil. The "conscienousness" and awareness that that many forum members on this forum have stated they are aware of-is God Almighty Himself-speaking to each and everyone of us.I challenge you and others to read the bible, examine the scriptures, look at nature all around you that speaks and sccreams to all mankind about HIS awesomenss and onimpotence in our lives.

God is here-you just need to ask him (Jesus Christ) to come into your life to experience the peace, joy, and saving grace that only HE can provide.

Best-

Wayne

[royster]

Right. And the tag on my mattress says "DO NOT REMOVE under penalty of law"...so I removed it under the ceiling fan instead. Can they still arrest me, those bedding police? Maybe, because printed words said so.

Enough, Wayne. I respect your view, and it will not go to waste....for you. I am finished in this thread.

[wbindia]

Right. And the tag on my mattress says "DO NOT REMOVE under penalty of law"...so I removed it under the ceiling fan instead. Can they still arrest me, those bedding police? Maybe, because printed words said so.

Enough, Wayne. I respect your view, and it will not go to waste....for you. I am finished in this thread.

Royster-

Although we disagree with our respective viewpoints/beliefs on God and eternal questions of salvation -et al, I none-the-less respect your viewpoints as you also respect mine.

My prayer for you is that you may one day come to know the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Peace be with always...

Best-

Wayne

[royster]

Jesus and gun sights don't mix
By LEONARD PITTS JR.
lpitts@MiamiHerald.com
Have you heard about the Jesus rifles?

ABC News broke the story last week. It seems there was this fellow named Glyn Bindon, who used weapons of war to speak for his faith.

Bindon, who lost his life in a 2003 plane crash, was the founder of Trijicon, a Michigan company that has a $600 million contract to provide gun sights to the U.S. military. Apparently he had a policy, which survived him, of inscribing coded references to Bible verses on the gun sights he manufactured for high-powered rifles used by U.S. service personnel. So that, for instance, one sight is marked, 2COR4:6, i.e., 2 Corinthians 4:6: "God said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness.' He made his light shine in our hearts. It shows us the light of God's glory in the face of Christ."

Tom Munson, a Trijicon executive, told ABC there was nothing wrong or illegal about the inscriptions and noted pointedly that the issue was being raised by a group (presumably meaning the Muslims who have complained) that is "not Christian." On Thursday, the company agreed to discontinue the practice.

Still, Munson's remarks deserve a riposte. Here it is:

In the first place, the gun sights actually seem a clear violation of a regulation specifically prohibiting service personnel from proselytizing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In the second place, the revelation is a fresh embarrassment for the U.S., which has labored for nine years to convince the Muslim world it is not leading a Christian crusade against Islam.

In the third place, the coded scriptural references provided a recruiting tool to warlords and terrorists who could truthfully tell followers they were being shot at by Jesus guns.

In the fourth place, Munson's airy dismissal of his critics as ``not Christian'' (e.g., we can ignore them) speaks volumes about the smug, insular fundamentalism at work here.

In the fifth place, there is a rather jarring cognitive disconnect involved in seeing weapons of war used to lionize the prince of peace.

And finally, in the sixth place: is this not one of the cheesiest expressions of religious faith you've ever seen? Not that that would make it unique. On the contrary, we specialize in cheesy expressions of faith here in God's favorite country. Indeed, you could build a tower unto heaven itself out of all the roadside Jesuses, prayer cloths, Ten Commandments rocks, and other trinkets of a cheap, disposable faith that says nothing, costs nothing, does nothing, risks nothing, that speaks not of God, external and eternal, but only of the grubby, temporal perspectives and fears of ground-bound women and men.

Last November, the University of Chicago published a study quantifying the blazingly obvious: people tend to create God in their own image, to ascribe to the deity their own opinions, interests and beliefs. But is that really faith, when you reduce God to a bigger version of you?

Mother Teresa's faith drove her to foreswear material riches and spend half a century working to uplift the wretched poor of Calcutta.

Martin Luther King's faith drove him to gamble his very life in a dangerous campaign to win human and civil rights for African-American people.

And then there's Glyn Bindon, whose faith led him to inscribe coded Bible verses on his gun sights.

The point is not that he or we can do what Martin Luther King did or be who Mother Teresa was -- we all suffer in that comparison. No, the point is that truest faith is not seen in a secret code on a gun sight, a trinket from a store or words on a rock. Rather, faith is seen in the substance of a life lived in service to others, lived as if God were not in fact one's personal echo chamber in the sky.

I submit that this is the only kind of faith that matters. And that it speaks for itself.

[rei]

Originally Posted by wbindia

Royster-

Although we disagree with our respective viewpoints/beliefs on God and eternal questions of salvation -et al, I none-the-less respect your viewpoints as you also respect mine.

My prayer for you is that you may one day come to know the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Peace be with always...

Best-

Wayne

God would like it if you stopped doing this... He says it is backfiring. Instead of people becoming eager to join the flock, they are even more resistant to joining.

yes, God just told me this. of course, you have free will to act on God's feedback or not.

[royster]

Thanks rei, I tend to push the envelope. But it was more the content of Mr. Pitts' article that I was interested in showing...in what appears an appropriate arena.

I'll stop, now.

See? Both hands where you can see 'em.

Now they are gentle clasped on my lap.

Sighhhhhhh. That's better.

[Eddy Arroyo]

People who say you should fear God just mean you should fear his Judgement. I dont fear god because he is life and why should you fear life?

[Requiem]

A god that has reason to make people afraid of him isn't much of a god in my opinion.

So if you're afraid of a god, don't worry, because either he's not worthy anyway and is not really god, or he's worthy and you have nothing to fear.

-peace