Signs of low status people (aka losers)

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by ken nubo

Hmm, live and learn, that's what I do everyday.

Might I suggest "Live and learn" as a better title for your blog? The current title is a bit of a misnomer... there's nothing unconventional about your thinking.

(there is, of course, nothing wrong with conventional thinking)

[Lexi]

Originally Posted by ken nubo

Wow, I should edit my post for grammar. It sounds like some incoherent muttering of a drunkard.

You might consider editing your entire blog for grammar. I'm not sure how so many misspelled words are supposed to make anybody "smarter" as you claim.

[frajilthunder]

Originally Posted by Lexi

You might consider editing your entire blog for grammar. I'm not sure how so many misspelled words are supposed to make anybody "smarter" as you claim.

Yeah, but how can you think unconventionally within the restrictive conventions of grammar?

[danas]

Thank you for your post, you put into words the very reason why I recently made a difficult discision to end a relationsip with a man I loved and whom loved me very much.
yes, he had very difficult past experiences and upbringing, there was a big difference in our social-economical backrounds, which was difficult for him- he even said his parents were losers, so he cant be proud of his family like I am of mine, and was always pissed off when we spent more time my family.
but mostly I left him because of this one:

Originally Posted by ken nubo

They're very emotionally reactive – small events can trigger anger, despair, and anxiety for them. They bitch, whine and cry but do nothing about it. They take small things and blow it out of proportion. Because small things effect small minds.

exactly!
he kept getting hurt from everything, I found myself walking on eggs all the time, and when he was hurt he would just leave for 2 days, this happened about once a month, and I would always miss him and take him back.but last time I said- no more! I finally realised this is such a built in pattern, which unless he intensionaly seeks help to change, this will keep going on.
I saw how this influenced his whole life achivements and ambitions, even though hes smart and talented.

I think that anyone can change if they seek to grow.

I wanted him so much to change cause I saw how these behaviors were ruining his life and mostly our relationship, but that only made things worse ofcourse.
My friends and family who knew him dont always seem to understand how I left such a nice loving guy, especially as i miss him alot two weeks later. He did make a very long way from his starting point, but still he had so many "loser" behaviors he hadnt let go of yet (.maybe now he will), and my outlook on life and the way I deal with things was too different to his way

[jsot]

Reading through TC's post, this sound a lot like me. Is there any way I can change?

[SmartAlx]

Hello everybody! Sorry about resurrecting an old thread, but I'm new here and I just had to respond since no one is taking the Devil's Advocate side. Allow me, if you will.

What you have listed is a pretty accurate description of one type of loser. But please understand that these behaviors are only the symptoms of being a loser. They aren't the cause.

Statisticians say that mathematically, there should be people who are naturally lucky and on the flip side, there should be unlucky people. Do you know of any unlucky people who have good attitudes? Yes? Well, I say that they aren't really unlucky. They might be currently having a bad streak of luck, but bad luck isn't a natural state for them. In order for you to have good expectations, you have to have experience with good outcomes. If you live your life setting goals, take note of other people's processes to accomplish the same goals, figure out what you need to accomplish those goals, execute the plan perfectly, and then watch a completely random and seemingly innocuous event destroy the goal, after the thousandth time this happens in one year you will naturally start to think that life is short changing you.

You only look down on people like this because you don't know what it's like to experience the things that cause a person to be that way. I would say walk in their shoes for one day, but really it's not enough to walk in their shoes for one day because it's not a single day of bad luck, but a lifetime of bad luck that makes someone get this way. Walk in their shoes for a year and you'll begin to see what it's like to live with bad luck. You think that they cause bad things to happen because of a bad attitude, but you have it backwards. They have a bad attitude because of the bad things that consistently happen that they have no control over. I know that their bad attitude makes it worse, but when you are stuck swirling down the drain, it's hard to pull yourself out without help.

And please don't point me to the "Intention - Minifestation" board. I'm so sick of that religion, and it is a religion. It's a humanistic religion whereby someone attempts to either tap into a higher power, or to replace the higher power with himself. (Luck is not a higher power, it's just mathematical streaks working for or against someone.) If intention worked, then people who "feel lucky" getting off the plane in Vegas wouldn't be broke 3 hours later. And you know that this happens all the time.

Rather than judge "losers" and laugh in their face, which only makes things worse for them, why not help them instead? Bring some positive energy into their life. Be a wingman for them one night. And if they push you away, don't take it badly and take it out on them. You'll only make it worse. They probably need the support of more than one person to change their opinion of humanity. They are callous after a lifetime of bad luck. Give them enough positive people who are willing to support and help them to fight the bad luck, and you will see a different person emerge. This will especially work when lucky people enter his life, as long as the lucky people align their goals with the unlucky person instead of against him. If they compete with him, then, well, that's a good way to make him go postal and start shooting.

Thanks for listening.
-Alex

[missing]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

And please don't point me to the "Intention - Minifestation" board. I'm so sick of that religion, and it is a religion. It's a humanistic religion whereby someone attempts to either tap into a higher power, or to replace the higher power with himself. (Luck is not a higher power, it's just mathematical streaks working for or against someone.) If intention worked, then people who "feel lucky" getting off the plane in Vegas wouldn't be broke 3 hours later. And you know that this happens all the time.

Good post and I largely agree. I'd say though that the "religion" is not "Intention-manifestation", but something more broad in scope. IM is just a symptom of a larger belief, which I think it could be better termed "personal responsibility", or the idea that people's circumstances have no bearing whatsoever as to the kind of life they live. I have a hard time coming up with a belief system capable of inflicting worse damage psychologically. And one wonders why there are so may "losers" or "low status" people out walking around.

btw I'm not against personal responsibility when reasonable, but I think in our society we take it way too far.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by missing

btw I'm not against personal responsibility when reasonable, but I think in our society we take it way too far.

Funny... I feel society has taken things way to far towards the other end of the scale, with governments' apparent desire for regulating every last minute of our lives. As if they feel it is their duty to reduce humanity to mindless drones, for our own protection.

No thank you!

I also have a hard time seeing losers as being the ones who have taken too much personal responsibility, as the few losers I know are losers precisely because they avoid taking responsibility for anything in their lives. Nothing is their fault, there is always someone else to blame and they are true victims of their circumstance.

Makes me very sad to think that someone would choose to live like that...

[missing]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

I also have a hard time seeing losers as being the ones who have taken too much personal responsibility, as the few losers I know are losers precisely because they avoid taking responsibility for anything in their lives. Nothing is their fault, there is always someone else to blame and they are true victims of their circumstance.

Makes me very sad to think that someone would choose to live like that...

the thing is, everybody's situation is different. You really don't know for sure why somebody's life is the way it is. You may have hints and clues but there always can be something you don't know. For some so called "losers" it might NOT be a choice but you can't see it because your "personal responsibility" lens blinds you to other perspectives. Not saying this is always the case but different situations call for different lenses to view them through, and it's probably a good idea to view the same situation through as many different lenses as you can. Sometimes the "PR" lens is a good one to go by, but not always. Many people, especially people in Personal Development, and "successful" people (it's easy to take personal responsibility when things go your way) are guilty of overuse, IMO. They view all reality through the lens of "personal responsibility" and thus cheapen both the collective value of the lens, and their ability to get a realistic grasp of the world. Thus they wind up doing more harm than good, even though they are often well intentioned.

That makes me sad.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Ak47

If you want to meet anyone like this though, probably 5/10 drug abusers (*HEAVY* marijuana abuse or other substances) would fit the description very well (from personal experience). They can't rely on themselves or anything else for relief from their downward spiral of what seems to them to be misfortune and badluck- not realizing that only they can change it. Not a mind flattening gas, pill or powder.

You say you know this from personal experience,but i have personal experience too and i've never met a heavy marijuana smoker who fits this negative description. I know heavy pot smokers who work at 3M,work in the field of architecture,have MANY friends,have no misfortune or bad luck,and are not on a "downward spiral". Maybe that description holds true for some,but i just had to say i haven't met any who are like that. In fact i have a friend who is seriously depressed,mentally messed up in almost every way,yet she won't touch drugs or alcohol.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by missing

the thing is, everybody's situation is different. You really don't know for sure why somebody's life is the way it is. You may have hints and clues but there always can be something you don't know. For some so called "losers" it might NOT be a choice

Giving yourself over to circumstance is always a choice, IMHO.

If you've been dealt a bad hand, you can choose to make the best of it or do nothing but bitch and moan about how the big bad world isn't giving you any breaks. Doing the latter makes you a loser - regardless of circumstance.

Not saying this is always the case but different situations call for different lenses to view them through, and it's probably a good idea to view the same situation through as many different lenses as you can. Sometimes the "PR" lens is a good one to go by, but not always.

Thing is, I am perfectly capable of viewing different situations through different lenses, but none of those negate the fact that people can either give in to their circumstances or try to overcome them.

The people who overcome their circumstance give us grand stories, like the guy who had to have his legs amputated and then went on to win the New York Marathon with prosthetic legs, or small ones, like the single mom working three jobs to pay for her son's education and then sees him grow up to be successful high priced lawyer.

Not all these stories of people trying to overcome circumstance have happy endings, unfortunately - but each and everyone is a better tale than that of those who gave up before trying.

Many people, especially people in Personal Development, and "successful" people (it's easy to take personal responsibility when things go your way)

Almost without exception, all those "successful" people got to where they are by taking personal responsibility when things didn't go their way. Their success (and I mean living a fulfilling life, not having lots of money) is the reward for making it trough the rough patches.

It is very rare to find success without hardship.

[missing]

Not all these stories of people trying to overcome circumstance have happy endings, unfortunately - but each and everyone is a better tale than that of those who gave up before trying.

nobody is talking about giving up before trying. The thing is sometimes people do try their best and it gets them nowhere. Eventually they stop trying because they realize it's a waste of energy and the chance of a happy ending is to small to be worth it. This is not their fault, simply how the world works. Giving up becomes the smart decision. People like you blaming them for their failures certainly doesn't make life any better for anyone.

Almost without exception, all those "successful" people got to where they are by taking personal responsibility when things didn't go their way. Their success (and I mean living a fulfilling life, not having lots of money) is the reward for making it trough the rough patches.

and not everyone has the inborn temperament to deal with lots of hardship. That's completely out of one's control. Just once I'd like to hear a successful person say "I just got dealt a good hand" or, "I'm lucky I'm pretty resilient, the road blocks to the top didn't phase me too much". Instead they all peddle this "personal responsibility" crap.

Though I'm glad your religion seems to serve you well. Too bad it limits your ability view others. I can only hope the damage you inflict on them is as limited as can be.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by missing

People like you blaming them for their failures certainly doesn't make life any better for anyone.

I don't blame people for their failures. Failures are good. It is how you learn to succeed. I don't even blame people for giving in to circumstance. It's their choice to make.

I do think that such people should not envy my successes. If you don't want to cope with my failures (there were many), you have no right to be envious of the little success I have.

Just once I'd like to hear a successful person say "I just got dealt a good hand" or, "I'm lucky I'm pretty resilient, the road blocks to the top didn't phase me too much". Instead they all peddle this "personal responsibility" crap.

Perhaps that is because all successful people believe in that crap. Name one truly successful person whose life is not riddled with failures. Donald Trump went bankrupt numerous times, Steve Jobs was fired from the company he created (only to return as it's savior a decade later), Lenny Kravitz was rejected again and again by the music business until someone finally gave him a break... the list goes on...

All these people have in common that after every fall, they pick themselves up and try again. And again. And again.

Though I'm glad your religion seems to serve you well. Too bad it limits your ability view others. I can only hope the damage you inflict on them is as limited as can be.

It's not a religion and I am not holding a gun to anyone's head shouting "TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!", so my views can hardly be damaging to anyone but myself. Fortunately, what happens to me is entirely my responsibility.

So don't you worry

[Silent Lucidity]

I would have to a agree with missing, in this situation. When you try intention-manifestation, and it works for you, great, you're more likely to believe in that... you can 'feel' the results... I'm darned good at manifesting... but it's like battling the wall of my life-circumstance.. it's as tall and immovable as the world of the inorganic beings in Carlos Castenada's The Art of Dreaming.

I know many people on both ends of the scale. Actually my ex-partner is one of those people that doesn't believe in PR at all, believes in fate, and random chance. He was successful in life, and blames it entirely on luck. He caught on to a lucrative business opportunity at a young age, rode it, and now doesn't have to work. He claims that distribution of the world's wealth is a result of luck more than anything else.

I believe in personal responsibiltiy and intending results. I've got bad eyes, chronic athsma, chronic pain since I was six, and yet I worked to overcome all that, always got the marks, had lots of friends, made physical health/beauty/intelligence into a religion... stayed up until 10pm doing homework, it took longer b/c I couldn't see. Dealt with teasing, eyestrain headaches.... used dance to teach myself physical grace, Meditation helps with stress, etc.. and have I now have two degrees with honors. I chose the wrong field, though, for those degrees, and am now facing huge competition with regards to the art-proff job market, competeing with over 300 people for each potential job that starts at only 40k/year. I've spent my entire life working so hard... eight years of academia... for this? to have my professors reassure me I would get a job for sure.. and now nothing.

Now the health issues are worse. The drugs for the FMS and athsma cause daytime sleepiness, moodiness and apathy. Two years since then. I can't adjust to being out of school, to it not going they way I thought it would. No job, no car, had to move back home, no public transit, no friends here yet. My fiance didn't work out. Turned out to be emotionally controlling. I'm trapped here at my parents house on the mountainside. Yes, sometimes I just don't do anything, due to mental and spiritual exhaustion.

(I did just land several little jobs / projects recently so that's something).

There's no point trying to explain this to others... they would say, as people on here would say, that I'm not taking responsibility for my life.

I found your post so refreshing, someone that actually thinks there are other circumstances that people have to work with at times.

Who else thinks that karma, Intention-Manifestation, etc inflict psychological damage? I wonder how many of us here....

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Silent Lucidity

There's no point trying to explain this to others... they would say, as people on here would say, that I'm not taking responsibility for my life.

But you are taking responsibility! By your own admission:

(I did just land several little jobs / projects recently so that's something)

Despite everything, you haven't given up on yourself.

Don't you agree that those little jobs / projects are infinitely more rewarding than handing yourself over to fate and circumstance completely?

[missing]

I don't blame people for their failures. Failures are good. It is how you learn to succeed. I don't even blame people for giving in to circumstance. It's their choice to make.

but maybe they would choose not to give in. They simply have to. For example; a marathon runner trains every day for the big race and gets turned quadriplegic by a drunk driver. He can no longer participate in the race. Whose responsible? Why the marathon runner of course. For being dumb enough to get in the path of a drunk driver. He better take some responsibility...

Oh I forgot. Quadriplegics are out winning marathons left and right. They just get some mechanic legs and go...

I do think that such people should not envy my successes. If you don't want to cope with my failures (there were many), you have no right to be envious of the little success I have.

well first off, you can't tell people what they have a "right" to be envious of.

Perhaps that is because all successful people believe in that crap. Name one truly successful person whose life is not riddled with failures. Donald Trump went bankrupt numerous times, Steve Jobs was fired from the company he created (only to return as it's savior a decade later), Lenny Kravitz was rejected again and again by the music business until someone finally gave him a break... the list goes on...

All these people have in common that after every fall, they pick themselves up and try again. And again. And again.

I agree that failure is usually a necessary step up towards success. However, some people are more resilient than others. The reasons for this are complex and cannot simply be chalked up "personal responsibility". Well they can, but only if that is your religion. It's like saying the sky is blue because god made it that way. Steve Jobs got where he was cause he took more responsibility than anyone else. Both statements might be true. But you can't prove either of them.

It's not a religion and I am not holding a gun to anyone's head shouting "TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!", so my views can hardly be damaging to anyone but myself. Fortunately, what happens to me is entirely my responsibility.

I hate to break it to you but you don't live in a bubble. We share this world, this reality, my friend. Ignore that truth at yours and everyone else's peril.

I'm not trying to say personal responsibility doesn't exist. I believe it does, but its merely one factor in determining how somebody's life turns out. When people start viewing it as the ONLY factor, that is when we get distorted views and perspectives about people. This translates into actions that have very real consequences.

[missing]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

But you are taking responsibility! By your own admission:



Despite everything, you haven't given up on yourself.

Don't you agree that those little jobs / projects are infinitely more rewarding than handing yourself over to fate and circumstance completely?

I think you are missing (haha, a pun) the point. Silent Lucidity is taking responsibility but it's still gotten him (or her) nowhere near the life they want for themselves, and the future out look is relatively bleak. Certainly it's better to take whatever responsibility one can, but this only goes on so much. At some point fatigue gets the best of you. Swim against the tide and you WILL drown, but you can't go the other direction for it will carry you out to sea. It's a no win situation. The game is "rigged" against you.

In my mind, the people who tout "personal responsibility" religiously are people who have the game rigged in their favor. They don't understand other perspectives because they have never experienced them. That is why successful people like to tout PR; the game is rigged for them, and taking such a viewpoint appeals to their ego. This isn't to say they don't take some responsibility, but they have an easier time at it than many others. These people need to walk a mile in the shoes of the less fortunate; only then will they realize how limited their perspective is. Sadly, it's these "PR" wing nuts that have success and thus gain influence on society, which lets them spread their pathological religion to the rest of us.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by missing

Swim against the tide and you WILL drown, but you can't go the other direction for it will carry you out to sea.

So why don't you let yourself be carried out to sea and find out where it takes you? Swimming against the tide is clearly not working for you... no point in keeping it up. Out on the sea you might just find yourself a nice tropical island to be marooned on...

It's a no win situation. The game is "rigged" against you.

Only if you want to believe that - it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The game isn't rigged for or against anyone.

They don't understand other perspectives because they have never experienced them.

That is your assumption. You just feel more comfortable thinking that.

These people need to walk a mile in the shoes of the less fortunate

Who says they haven't? Just because they have a good life now, doesn't mean that it was always like that.

only then will they realize how limited their perspective is

The same can be said for those who categorically claim that their lives are just the product of pure chance and circumstance. They are so caught up playing the victim that they wouldn't see a solution if it was staring them in the face. That's the difference. If you accept responsibility, then your eyes are wide open to see what's around you; to see what in this world could possibly improve your situation.

Taking responsibility isn't about getting all you want.
It is about making the best of what you got.