The Myth of a Happy Marriage

[Interpreneur]

Based on some things that have happened around my social circle over the past few months, I am starting to wonder if most people would actually be willing to wreck a marriage and a home --- whether it's their own or someone else's --- just to be with the person they think they love.

I know most people in here will jump the gun and say they wouldn't do it....but I do wonder about most of society.

Example # 1: Sometime in early May I was visiting a happily married friend at his retail store and as we were staring out the window he told me that a girl who worked at the store next door was driving him crazy because she was so beautiful.

Fast forward a few weeks and this girl is now working for him. Fast forward a few more weeks and I find out three things.

a. His wife is pregnant.

b. He wants to divorce her right now.

c. He has rented a condo near his store where his young employee Jessikah (with a K and an H) will be living "for a while".

This is a highly educated and relatively wealthy man with what I thought were supreme moral values. But one 19 year old hottie has turned his world upside down.

Example # 2: In 2005 Cousin A and Cousin B got into a massive argument in my office. Cousin A claimed that Cousin B owed him $10,000 over a business deal gone bad a few years before.

After Cousin B left, Cousin A told me that he was going to make things even by "nailing" his wife. I blew off the comment as stupid jock talk. The arguments between them over the money continued for some time, but I stayed out of it because that had nothing to do with me.

Then a few months ago Cousin B got a DVD in the mail. The DVD allegedly featured Cousin A and Cousin B's wife having sex on several occassions, at different hotels, etc.

I had not talked to either of them for a while, but Cousin B told me everything after he came looking for Cousin A's new address (Cousin A moved to another state last year).

Cousin B and his wife are now going through a very nasty divorce. So in this case, Cousin A wrecked that marriage over money and hatred, but Cousin B's wife just fell into a seduction trap and is just as guilty.

Example # 3: My 29 year old sister is rumored to be having an affair with another friend of mine. They are both married with 3 children each, so that's another time bomb waiting to explode -- and when it does it will take down 8 other people with them. I have talked to both of them, but they are still denying everything, even though they are not doing very much to keep it a secret.

These are adults, so I don't feel the need to babysit them. And they are all educated people with solid careers and as far as I know, doing pretty well financially, so if they need advice, they can afford the best therapy in town.

And I am by no means the morality police. I have my own skeletons in my closet, but I am not married, and as far know I have never slept with a married woman, so in this area I am a saint.

These cases make me wonder if anybody's marriage is really as safe as they think it is. Or if practically every marriage is just one good looking person and a smile away from getting wrecked.

[openeyes]

I think there are good, happy marriages in the US that can make it through most anything. It's just that it's less than 5% of the marriages out there.

[Shamou]

Wilt Chamberlain who claims to have had 20,000 women said, "I was just doing what was natural -- chasing good-looking ladies, whoever they were and wherever they were available."

That’s what I would call, “a bit excessive.”

.

[Chet]

But one 19 year old hottie has turned his world upside down.

he turned his world upside down, not the 'hottie'.

Few marriages today survive because we are so stuck on the pretense of monogamy. It really only works for a rare few, most people cheat. If we would stop pretending so much and accept that an occasional affair does not have to wreck a marriage everybody would be better off.

[agnostic]

I seriously doubt that humans are supposed to be monogamous. It looks more like an arbitrary game-rule and if that's the case it's time to get rid of it.

[MM19]

that so many people are now claiming "monogamy" is unnatural or the root issue here. Bringing in new friends, participating in new activities, revitalizing your love in your relationship bring as much to a relationship as sex with new/other partners. When did we forget the scares of the 1980s with STDs? When did we so easily forget the issue of impregnating someone outside of our relationship? Why are we looking toward polygamy as an option? I think it is lazy and a way of avoiding the painful growth a monogamous relationship can bring. If you are dissatisfied with your sex life, don't feel as stimulated as you did before by your partner/your life, are arguing a lot with your significant other, those problems are as much about you as your partner. To look outside for someone to raise your self-esteem or to make the sex "new and exciting" is just lazy. New problems will just creep up, and in the meantime, you have chosen to spend your time/energy on someone other than the person you committed your life to bc/ they bring out those things in you. They are a teaching tool, not someone to overlook, minimize, expose to STDs and the emotional baggage your new partner has, etc. I know many very happy couples, who have been together 30 years or more, and by working through their issues, they are stronger, happier, and better people, with far better sex lives than they had in their 20s and 30s.

[Chet]

Cheating is not new in marriages, just the divorce rate it causes. At one time people would have tried harder to stay together and work things now.
I am of course assuming that some reasonable care for issues like STD's and pregnancy but I would rather have a mate be honest about attractions to others than to have them sneak around and do it anyway.

Is monogamy a 'natrual' human state? I have no idea, it apparently works sometimes but not often enough to be really convincing. ( and I don't think we should count serial monogamy).

[C33]

I am not married so I wouldn t know what it feels from the inside.

However, I witnessed a lot of marriages being destroyed through cheating. I would say that the cause of the marriage s disintegration was a lack of communication and excitement that was manifested through the act of cheating. Cheating seems to be a symptom.

My perception of this is that:
Women seem to cheat to get the attention they don t get at home.They tend to desire to build something with the other person. As a result they are more likely to leave their husbands to start a relationship with their lovers. The affair gives them the incentive to get out of the marriage, something they seem not to be able to do by themselves.

The men seem to cheat in order to keep their marriage. That is they get their excitement elsewhere so that they can bear the boredom of their marriage while keeping the commitment.

I agree with the person who says that a lot of people just translate their problems into a new relationship.

Maybe I should work for Hallmark, but I believe in monogamy. However, I am not so candid as to think that a high percentage of people can love and be excited by the same person for 50 years and more.

[Lynn 007]

It takes two to tango!!!

I will be celebrating my 20th wedding anniversary this year and can say I have never cheated on my husband. I am not saying I haven't been propositioned but nothing has presented itself as "worth" breaking my vows, someone's heart that I respect and have spent so much time with. I have not been inside a church (wedding & funerals don't count) since my wedding day but I took my vows seriously. I value myself too much to even think of "shaggin" someone one night to potentially give up all the time I have invested in my marriage. It takes work to have a successful marriage.

I was a teenager when I met my husband so I'm happy that so far we are growing together but who knows what tomorrow brings - I will not take anything for granted. I want my husband to stay interested in me so I have a life that keeps me busy and interesting for me; and the fact he still finds me interesting and I still pique his interest is great. Right now I am focusing on running a marathon in the fall and new career developments. He on the other hand is looking at a career change and I will support him 110%.

To me life is all about ups and downs, changes, you need to give and take and at the end of the day a sense of humour is what is needed to get you through the rough patches.

His grandfather told us something on our wedding day I will never forget. He told my husband (in my presence) three things to a happy marriage are: (he was married over 50 years and idolized his wife).

1. Tell your wife how beautiful she is regularly
2. buy flowers on a regular basis for her
3. buy "just because" gifts on a regular basis to let her know you were thinking of her.

He said if you follow these three things you will never end up divorced.

So far so good.

[silicon toad2000]

I've been married 8 years and we were engaged for a number of years before that.
The thing many people stumble on is that we will at least once in our lives, sometimes often, find a person whom we 'click' with better than our partners. People need to understand this, deal with it and accept it.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by silicon toad2000

The thing many people stumble on is that we will at least once in our lives, sometimes often, find a person whom we 'click' with better than our partners. People need to understand this, deal with it and accept it.

While I totally agree with the above statement it has nothing to do with having a healthy, happy marriage. I've actually found many people I 'click' with better than my husband, but having gotten to know some of them very well, I would not be able to be married to them for one reason or another (values, common goals, personality etc.)

People make the mistake of thinking your spouse/partner has to fulfill all of your needs. If that were true, we wouldn't need anyone else in our lives.

There are many components to a healthy marriage/relationship. You can enjoy what others have to offer without damaging your relationship with your partner if you know where to draw the line and put it in perspective.

[Matthew Shea]

Personally, I think those that argue "monogamy is not natural for humans" are missing the point. Whether or not it's natural is irrelevant since, as intelligent beings, we're obligated to deal with the consequences of our actions as best we can. You can't just jump from partner to partner spreading disease and impregnating anyone who just might be at the right time in her cycle without having a destructive influence on society. The needs of society outweigh our "natural" desires.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

While monogamy may be considered unnatural, I feel like if one agreed to it (which is essentially one of the main agreements of a marriage) that one should abide by it. If one chooses not to (when one realizes how 'unnatural' it is) then exit the marriage and pursue all of the polyamoury you want or bring it up to your spouse and agree on an open marriage.

I am all for polyamoury if that floats someone's boat. However, I feel like if I am in an acknowledged, exclusive relationship with someone, them going behind my back to have a relationship with someone else is dishonest. It's particularly unnerving when I could be exposed to diseases. Tell me how you've embraced polyamoury and want to get it on with other ladies so I can decide whether I think it's a great idea or whether I would rather find someone who shares my love of monogomy. The people doing it on the DL are just trying to have their cake and eat it too. And that is my very bitter opinion for what it's worth.

There are lots of people who I 'click' with. During the low points in a relationship they might look pretty good, but I am the common denominator in any relationship I am in, so my problems with one would follow me to the other. And I would hate myself for lying and cheating. So it's not for me and I wouldn't want it done to me.

[silicon toad2000]

My point exactly, the whole click thing SHOULD have nothing to do with a happy marriage.
Those of us that realise this have a somewhat easier path ahead than those that do not.
Another thing as ZHereford pointed out, the side to people we see in life other than out partners is generally like the preview to a movie, all the good bits.
heh, like the joke says, you never know someone until they are comfortable enough to fart in front of you. (I know, I know, there are some people who will fart in front of you seconds after you meet, but lets not bring that into it)
I thank (insert deity of choice here) for my wife, I know I couldn't put up with me as well as she does.

[Ree]

I agree with a lot of what has been posted above. In my humble opinion, we have become a society seeking instant gratification. In a relationship of any kind, business, social or romantic, it takes time to discover areas where you differ with the other individual and additional time to work out compromises. There may be some differences that are deal-breakers and you certainly want to find out about those before you make a commitment. Too often, folks just barely take time to scratch the surface of getting to know a potential significant other and they fill in the blanks with what they THINK or WISH that person to be.

Then there's television, movies, the media, our peers. The level of expectation is raised to an unbelievable mark, so not only do we want it NOW, but it better be DAMN FANTASTIC! It's a recipe for disaster.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Ree

I agree with a lot of what has been posted above. In my humble opinion, we have become a society seeking instant gratification. ... Too often, folks just barely take time to scratch the surface of getting to know a potential significant other and they fill in the blanks with what they THINK or WISH that person to be.

Then there's television, movies, the media, our peers. The level of expectation is raised to an unbelievable mark, so not only do we want it NOW, but it better be DAMN FANTASTIC! It's a recipe for disaster.

While this is certainly true, there's a further problem that exists: the presumption that anyone can be anything. Kids today are raised believing that they can be anything they want to be, which is false. This transfers onto potential partners: they can be anything they want to be, too.

On the other hand, (and not to derail the thread!), should we therefore provide quality and service lower than our capabilities, in order to make sure people remain properly expectant of lower standards? (I'm speaking of more than relationships, obviously, but all those other sources of instant gratification.)

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Personally, I think those that argue "monogamy is not natural for humans" are missing the point. Whether or not it's natural is irrelevant since, as intelligent beings, we're obligated to deal with the consequences of our actions as best we can. You can't just jump from partner to partner spreading disease and impregnating anyone who just might be at the right time in her cycle without having a destructive influence on society. The needs of society outweigh our "natural" desires.

Would it be acceptable if this person shouldered the responsibility of every resultant child's upbringing?

Marriage, and the nuclear family, is an utter fragmentation of society. Families are insular and atomic units of cultural upraising, far more than pre-American societies had been, to my knowledge. If I had my way, I would fragment these further, and force would be cultural nurturers to do so in the public forum, rather than in the privacy of their homes, and in so doing coerce the exposure of diversity to children.

Gah, and I'm derailing the damned thread again. If either of you are inclined towards discussing either topic further, feel free to make a thread or ask me to.

[172]

Originally Posted by Chet

he turned his world upside down, not the 'hottie'.

Few marriages today survive because we are so stuck on the pretense of monogamy. It really only works for a rare few, most people cheat. If we would stop pretending so much and accept that an occasional affair does not have to wreck a marriage everybody would be better off.

ITA!!!!!!!!! There was an MSN article on this very topic a couple of months back that discussed how infidelity is such a deal-breaker in the US but, in other countries, infidelity is viewed as par for the course in marriage (or, at least, certainly not worthy of divorce) and, therefore, there are lower divorce rates as a result.

[Jayne]

My 2 cents - having recently survived an affair:
A happy marriage is not a myth. I know a few truly happily married couples - but not many. Thankfully Jonathan and I are one of them.
A happy marriage does require 2 happy people - 2 people who take responsibility for their own happiness. When we realize it's up to us to be happy and quit relying on someone else to make us happy, or quit trying to make others happy - then we can happily coexist.
Look at any happy marriage and i bet you'll see 2 people who are happy with themselves.
Sometimes it takes an affair to teach us how to do that. I certainly had to learn the hard way. But I learned the lesson. I am responsible for my happiness, and most importantly, am not responsible for my husband's. Just that realization has been more powerful to me than anything else I have learned through the process.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Personally, I think those that argue "monogamy is not natural for humans" are missing the point. Whether or not it's natural is irrelevant since, as intelligent beings, we're obligated to deal with the consequences of our actions as best we can. You can't just jump from partner to partner spreading disease and impregnating anyone who just might be at the right time in her cycle without having a destructive influence on society. The needs of society outweigh our "natural" desires.

Hey there, Matthew. Any thinking person can avoid spreading disease and unintentionally impregnating people. Aside from avoiding those negatives, which can be easily avoided without monogamy, what needs of society does monogamy fulfill?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I will say that monogomy just seems like the thing for me, though I don't expect everyone to agree...just the person I happen to be dating or married to.

As to the avoidance of spreading disease, I wonder how many people who cheat are really careful. I don't suppose there are any studies, but I do hear about a lot of pregnancies resulting from affairs. If that's the case there are obviously people who aren't being too careful.

If people are agreed to having an open relationship, I think that's great. What I don't think is great is when one person thinks they are in a monogomous relationship and they are not. Especially if their partner is engaging in less than safe sex.

Jayne, I think what you posted is great. I would wager a lot of the reason behind cheating is more a matter of people looking for fullfilment in others rather than in themselves. When their parter doesn't live up to that, they look elsewhere. I would think most of the people who have multiple partners on principle (as in they don't believe in monogomy) would be upfront about it rather than secretive.

I would like to hear your response to Angela's question too, Matthew. I agree that I don't feel like monogomy is outdated. In fact I think it's a great idea. But that's more of a feeling than a philosophy I have. I am curious to see what you have to say. Maybe you will give a voice to some things or give me something to think about.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I would like to hear your response to Angela's question too, Matthew. I agree that I don't feel like monogomy is outdated. In fact I think it's a great idea.

I like being in my monogamous relationship and hope it lasts a long time. But I can't see any real ways that it's the best or only way to live. I'm starting to see that I've been socialized to believe that, by powerful and effective sources! (in other words, by people.) It seems to me that the monogamy/marriage "rules" just don't work in promoting the values that are important to me. Instead, I see people suffering over expectations and perceived debts owed and using words like "cheating" and "betrayal" to describe what could be high expressions of love if it weren't for these rules.

Matthew, I'm pretty sure you feel strongly that monogamy/marriage ARE good for society, so that's why I asked. In a weird way, I would LIKE to believe in them.

This whole thing might just be that I'm in my Last Chance to Get Pregnant time, and I think my hormones are all signing the petition for me to go out and maximize my opportunities. If it weren't for Danger Man, I would be on a Round-Up!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Angela

Instead, I see people suffering over expectations and perceived debts owed and using words like "cheating" and "betrayal" to describe what could be high expressions of love if it weren't for these rules.

But is it always an expression of love? If that were the case I might be a little more inclined to change some of my views. For people in open relationships (described in a post by openeyes I think very nicely) I can see a much more thoughtful and loving approach to multiple partners. Most of the extra-relationship/marital nookie I've seen going on was more about not getting enough sex at home or some problem in the relationship that could be addressed without going that route and hurting the person you've agreed to a committment with. And without lying.

To me, if I am a person who is comfortable with myself and responsible for my own happiness, then monogomy becomes all the more natural because I won't be looking for my partner to provide me with anything. Rather I would be sharing the great things in life with someone I enjoy. And if there was a time when he did something that annoyed me or pained me, I would not need to go sleep with someone else to make it better.

Hmm, now I really want to hear what you have to say Matthew.

I don't think monogomy is the best and only way to live. I still feel like it is the way I would like to live.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Angela

It seems to me that the monogamy/marriage "rules" just don't work in promoting the values that are important to me.

Could you expound on that?

I ask because I have some fairly good examples in my life of people who don't seem to have 'rules' per se, but who are committed. They generally enjoy each other and support each other and wouldn't think of any extra-marital sex.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Could you expound on that?

Well, I'm talking more about the unspoken or implied rules more than the "I'll be true, till we're blue" explicit promises. My values, and how I see marriage possibly affecting them:

Freedom: "if he really loved me, he would know what I want, would intuitively satisfy my needs, wouldn't look at other women, wouldn't need time apart (abandon me)." Monogamy tends to give people the idea that they are "owed" certain things, and society reinforces that by judging perpetrators harshly. That seems to me to strongly inhibit a sense of Freedom, and to create feelings of resentment (and, incidentally, to encourage the partner to flee or have sex with others to relieve the constraint, and then be called a "cheater" or "betrayer" -- kind of a downward spiral.)

Joy: I know there is joy to be had in marriage. But in many the marriages I've seen, there's a sense that the spouse is responsible for his/her partner's Joy. You know I believe each person is responsible for generating joy in his/her own life, and depending on another to do it for you is a surefire recipe for suffering.

Connection: When you're married, there's a certain amount of taking each other for granted. Wouldn't we generate more connection with our partner if it were not taken for granted? Maybe.

Flow: Marriage makes promises that don't take into account the flow of a lifetime. I promise to be true (and all those other unspoken vows), but it just seems unreasonable to me, especially for a healthy, horny younger person, that you should be expected never to indulge in canoodling with ANY OTHER PERSON, EVER IN YOUR WHOLE LIFE. In some cases, the punishment for that is death! Remember the guy in that other thread who said the guy who slept with his brother's wife probably deserved to be killed? Yikes! You can get out of a murder charge if it's a "crime of passion" (e.g., you catch your wife in bed with the pool boy.)

Well, I'm just thinking out loud, you know. It's not like I'm dead-set against monogamy and my thoughts about it are not all negative. As I said, I love my relationship with Danger Man and would prefer that it remain monogamous.

[Matthew Shea]

The first thing that should be pointed out is that there are no 100% sure ways to avoid pregnancy or disease when you have sex with someone. Birth control is not 100% effective and the only way to prevent disease currently is with a condom and we all know that those break.

I think the case for monogamy, though, is largely one of establishing a type of social bonding that gives order to our natural desire to reproduce. Has anyone ever watched a documentary on lions, for instance? It's been observed that a male lion will kill a lioness' cubs from another male to cause the lioness to go into heat so the new male can spread his genes instead. This is not to say that a widespread breakdown in monogamy would result in infanticide on a mass scale, but it would put every male in competition with every other male where the propegation of the species is concerned. You can further argue that it would cause males to view each other primarily as a threat, even more so than already happens, and it would cause them to view the children of other men in a similar way. This would bring down society as a whole.

Now if anyone has an alternate system that avoids the problems of putting men in competition with each other, I'm all ears. Polygamy would be one such system, but then there aren't enough women around to make that work fairly, so on a widespread basis, you're alienating large groups of men. You can strongly argue that such a system is not fair to women, either.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Angela, thanks for that. I prefer to clearly understand (as much as I can) what someone else is saying before I reply. I think I pretty much agree with you on all points and yet I still don't think I would want to be in a relationship that was not monogomous, definitely not one that was thought to be but in fact wasn't.

I guess the challenge for most people is finding someone that shares the same view on relationships that they do. I think a lot of the problems stem from people denying or trying to "correct" (based on some societal expectation with which they do not agree) their beliefs about relationships. For instance, if openeyes and his partner agree to an open relationship, good. If Matthew and his wife are both strong believers in monogomy, good. If someone feels better being a serial monogomist and finds several partners over the course of their life who find that agreeable, good.

I am concluding for myself that I don't think any way is wrong, but that partners in a relationship should simply communicate and be on the same page. Then everyone can enjoy a relationship that works for them.

Ideally, for me, I would like a relationship based on mutual respect, love and commitment where both partners are dedicated to mutual growth. And where each is encouraged to pursue solitary pursuits or those with friends in order to create space for the relationship to remain exciting. Communication would be paramount as would honesty. Humor would be a running theme. For me, it would also be monogomous.

Without that last sentence, it's probably what most people are looking for?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Matthew, thanks for sharing that. I don't have a well thought out response right now, but I wanted to let you know that I've read what you wrote and I'm thinking about it. Off the cuff I would say that while we do have 'animalistic' tendancies, I would hope our human capacity for reason would prevent such a fate. However, human reason has failed us in the past .

If you don't mind me asking (and if you do, please let me know, I don't mean to overstep): Do you think your view on monogomy/marriage is defined more by the factors you listed or by the values of your religion? This is a sincere question as I was brought up Christian (although not Catholic) and still consider myself one, though probably much more liberal than most.

[JohnPlace]

Just a few points: The Happy Marriage is not a myth, as the title of this thread suggests. I am very happily married. I "believe" she is my soul mate. Marrying her was the best decision I ever made. Every moment I spend with her is a blessing.

I can really only speak for myself, but you know, it would only take one Big Foot to prove that Big Foot is not a myth, if you get my drift.

Is my relationship in the minority? Oh, I'm sure it is. It seems as though I'm constantly hearing someone say mean, nasty things about his or her spouse.

I realize people get married for their own personal reasons, but once you've had the type of relationship that synergizes your life, it's just hard to imagine settling for anything less.

For the record, if some 19 year old hottie showed up on my front door trying to break up my marriage, I'd kick her to the curb before she got one foot over the threshhold. My wife and I agree on the importance of monogamy in our relationship (as we agree on all the big things), so there is absolutely zero chance I'd ever put myself in a position where being unfaithful was a possibility.

I would never try to tell someone else how he should or shouldn't live his own life. But 90% of my marital success has resulted from marrying the right woman. The other 10% resulted from being mature enough to recognize her and to treat her with respect.

[Matthew Shea]

That's a fair question, aspiring. Having been raised and still being a practicing Catholic, my views were undeniably formed by the Church, but I'd like to think that, as a human with free will, I'm not necessarily bound by their ways. I think they should accept, for instance, the legality of abortion and focus all of that effort into ministry and giving people the tools to eliminate the need for such a procedure. However, I tend to give the Church the benefit of the doubt in many cases since they have such a long history and since the essence of morality doesn't change over the years. What once was right at a fundamental level doesn't all of a sudden become wrong and vice versa. Society's views can change, but most of the time you're talking about changes in people's tolerance for what lies outside their normal expectations.

In the case of monogamy, I just don't see how you can possibly separate us from our natural instincts when it comes to sex. Survival is one of the most fundamental instincts we have and humans are going to fight for it tooth and nail if necessary. If you eliminate a social structure that greatly reduces (and ideally eliminates) sexual competition between males, you've effectively deconstructed civilization by exactly that same amount.

To add to my previous post, if you increase sexual competition between males, you're also going to make females much more protective and defensive (especially of their kids), which would have the effect of breaking down communication, especially between opposite sexes.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by JohnPlace

The Happy Marriage is not a myth,

I can vouch for that also John... not only do I have a happy marriage... but my wife is my main reason to be... and, we will celebrate out 25th in two months...

But, I cannot take credit for anything... I was just lucky enough to get the seventh wonder of the world as a better half...

.