"company culture" or "company clique-ability" ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[VetTechJess]

I am currently studying to be a veterinary technician. Last december 2006 I went on an interview at a veterinary clinic for a veterinary assistant position. I have ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE in the animal field whatsoever, so I marketed my education as an alternative. (I have since refined my interview tactics) I had an interview with a hiring manager who I swear was barely older than me or younger than me. (I didn't ask), but I didnt think of it at the time. Anyways I went on the interview and thought it turned out great.

I wasn't hired.

Hell, I didn't even get the dignity of the complementary "courtesy call" or "courtesy letter" telling me that someone else was hired. (I can count on one hand how many potential employers have done any of those) I actually had to call them and THATS when they told me someone else was hired!!!

I then was dissapointed (for sure) for obvious reasons. So I went to my online schools website forums for vet tech students and posted and asked why I wasnt hired and if they could give me reasons as to why.

thats when I learned about a little thing called "company culture"

I was partly appalled and floored by it, because in my view "company culture" can border from the rediculous to downright illegal discrimination based on the most absurd and stupid reasons.

I'll give you a prime example that REALLY HAPPENED (although the applicant was conveniently never told of this real reason as to why she wasnt hired):


As you may have guessed, there are some ppl on the vet tech board I was posting that were the Elite Few that were actually working at a vets office. Hell some even had the added Eliteness of being the ones who actually determined who was and was not hired!!!

here's what happened:

a poster I will call "susan" (not her real name) told me this (and I QUOTE!!!!!) :

"You know, one of the people who interviewed for the receptionist job at the office where I work wasn't hired or even seriously considered after her 1st interview because she was asked a simple, jokey question: " Will you be or at least pretend to be interested when we bring in pictures of our new children and gush about how adorable/smart/advanced they are?" (There are 4 out of 11 of us with kids under 3 years old). You know what she said? "NO"...and she was serious!
Sometimes, even the people who may be the BEST qualified for the job, just don't fit with the group. Do you get what I'm saying? So before you get all mad and irate at the veterinary offices in your area, consider the fact that maybe if they don't feel you'll fit in with them well, they're doing you a favor by not hiring you. They're giving you the opportunity to go someplace else and find the perfect entry into the field for you."

I underlined what I thought was the rediculous part.

that led me to believe that something as stupid as not having your hair done the right way is grounds enough to not get hired. (of course they wont come out and tell you this because they know they will be violating all kinds of employment laws and be subject to a lawsuit...theyll just simply placate the applicant by saying something along the lines of "not experienced enough" or "we found someone else to fit the job").........

any ideas on this? its led me to believe that its more about how to "fit in" with the "company clique" rather than trying to be a "team player" (or maybe thats what they mean when they say "team player" who knows)

okay enough of my rant....I need some of y'alls advice here!!!

[Angela]

When you spend a third of each day with people, it's not unreasonable to want those people to get along well. An office full of people who actively dislike each other, no matter how qualified they are for the job, is a nasty place to be.

When an interviewer asks, "will you at least pretend to be interested in our kids," she's telling the interviewee, "here's what's important to us. Our work environment will be much more pleasant if you are willing to be friendly and yielding on this issue." The person who said "No!" was saying, "I am unfriendly and unyielding on this issue." It doesn't take much to extropolate that the No-sayer is likely to be unfriendly and unyielding on other issues, as well. Result? No hire. This is not illegal at all; it is very good human resource tactic.

A good interviewer can spot a person with a chip on her shoulder a mile away. An attitude of entitlement ("I didn't even get a courtesy call or letter!") as opposed to contribution (Thank you note: "I would love to be part of making your company successful, and am looking forward to hearing from you."); an attitude of righteous indignation ("corporate culture is ridiculous and stupid and illegal!") as opposed to self-examination ("what can I shift within myself so that I'll be a good, happy fit for this organization?") is also easily spotted. The really great thing about a good attitude is that sometimes, even if you're not a good fit for one company, they might be able to refer you to the perfect person.

But that happens to granters more often than to ranters. Good luck!

[VetTechJess]

Originally Posted by Angela

When you spend a third of each day with people, it's not unreasonable to want those people to get along well. An office full of people who actively dislike each other, no matter how qualified they are for the job, is a nasty place to be.

When an interviewer asks, "will you at least pretend to be interested in our kids," she's telling the interviewee, "here's what's important to us. Our work environment will be much more pleasant if you are willing to be friendly and yielding on this issue." The person who said "No!" was saying, "I am unfriendly and unyielding on this issue." It doesn't take much to extropolate that the No-sayer is likely to be unfriendly and unyielding on other issues, as well. Result? No hire. This is not illegal at all; it is very good human resource tactic.

A good interviewer can spot a person with a chip on her shoulder a mile away. An attitude of entitlement ("I didn't even get a courtesy call or letter!") as opposed to contribution (Thank you note: "I would love to be part of making your company successful, and am looking forward to hearing from you."); an attitude of righteous indignation ("corporate culture is ridiculous and stupid and illegal!") as opposed to self-examination ("what can I shift within myself so that I'll be a good, happy fit for this organization?") is also easily spotted. The really great thing about a good attitude is that sometimes, even if you're not a good fit for one company, they might be able to refer you to the perfect person.

But that happens to granters more often than to ranters. Good luck!

well yeah but how can I tell a companys culture on just one interview with a brief tour of the facility???

[Brutha]

As an employer you friendly positive people.
A receptionist doesn't need a lot of skills, but she needs the ability to be friendly to any customer who comes in.

A quote from Terry Pratchett:
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind.

Nobody wants people with such an negative attitude in their workplace.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by VetTechJess

well yeah but how can I tell a companys culture on just one interview with a brief tour of the facility???

By listening!


They'll give you a clue, just like the person you quoted who jokingly asked if the candidate would be willing to pretend to admire her children. She was giving the candidate a chance to show that she:
a) has a sense of humor
b) is willing to bring a "family" sensibility to work
c) is friendly and flexible

Every question an interviewer asks or statement she makes contains an opportunity for you to learn something, and an invitation for you to demonstrate your interpersonal skills.

Also, you can ask directly! "Would you please tell me about the company's atmosphere, and what kind of person would best fit in?" Then be that person. Your aim is to get the job offer, so don't resist an invitation to be something you're not used to being. Think of it as dancing lessons from god. Resilience might be the key to a big improvement in your circumstances. And if you find that the job or people don't mesh with your values or the situation is simply unworkable, you can turn down the offer. But get the offer!

Most potential employers are looking for similar attitude traits: being friendly, adaptable, eager, responsible, enthusiastic, accountable and especially -- Be Present. Listen!

[llong]

What's so illegal about them not hiring you because you didn't fit? The world, and that employer, doesn't owe you a job. If you don't fit, you don't fit. Just as if you didn't like them, you wouldn't take the job either.

Methinks you should take Angela's advice to heart.

[Angela]

If you really want to make the most of your job hunt, take 100% responsibility. By this I mean:

Don't ever blame anyone, make them wrong, complain, rant, or use the thumbs-down symbol. If something feels wrong to you or isn't working well, look at what you've done to create it, and if you can't find anything you've done to create it, look harder. Look to see what you could do differently to create what you want next time. Look to see how your behavior negatively influenced or failed to give the desired impression. Let go of thinking that anyone else but you needs to change. Look at everything that goes wrong as an opportunity to learn something important about being the person you'll need to be in order to have the perfect job in the perfect company.

It is 100% up to you, Jessica!

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Angela

When an interviewer asks, "will you at least pretend to be interested in our kids," she's telling the interviewee, "here's what's important to us. Our work environment will be much more pleasant if you are willing to be friendly and yielding on this issue." The person who said "No!" was saying, "I am unfriendly and unyielding on this issue." It doesn't take much to extropolate that the No-sayer is likely to be unfriendly and unyielding on other issues, as well. Result? No hire. This is not illegal at all; it is very good human resource tactic.

Quoted for truth. Great responses Angela!

Hiring good people who can operate as part of a team is crucial, not ridiculous. Would you start your own company and hire a bunch of people who don't care about being part of the team? Of course not, not if you wanted the company to be sucessful.

[VetTechJess]

Originally Posted by Angela

By listening!


They'll give you a clue, just like the person you quoted who jokingly asked if the candidate would be willing to pretend to admire her children. She was giving the candidate a chance to show that she:
a) has a sense of humor
b) is willing to bring a "family" sensibility to work
c) is friendly and flexible

Every question an interviewer asks or statement she makes contains an opportunity for you to learn something, and an invitation for you to demonstrate your interpersonal skills.

Also, you can ask directly! "Would you please tell me about the company's atmosphere, and what kind of person would best fit in?" Then be that person. Your aim is to get the job offer, so don't resist an invitation to be something you're not used to being. Think of it as dancing lessons from god. Resilience might be the key to a big improvement in your circumstances. And if you find that the job or people don't mesh with your values or the situation is simply unworkable, you can turn down the offer. But get the offer!

Most potential employers are looking for similar attitude traits: being friendly, adaptable, eager, responsible, enthusiastic, accountable and especially -- Be Present. Listen!

yea that may be true but company culture means different things to different ppl. for example:

when a hiring manager thinks "company culture" he or she may think in the professional standpoint of 'professional, hardworking, enthusiastic team player.'

however.....

lets say when the other coworkers think of "company culture" they view it from a social standpoint of 'laid back, friendly person who is willing to go bar hopping with the girls (or guys) every friday evening.' Or they could also view "company culture" more along the lines of "friendly laid back person who has kids" (thus being unfair to those who dont or cannot have any kids)

believe it or not, when I applied for a taco bell job here where I live, the interviewer asked if I had any kids! to which I replied "no" because I dont. I then changed my answer to say I had furry little kids (my pet cats and ferrets). needless to say I didnt get the job, but they didnt say why.

I looked it up on the internet and asking about someones age, marital status, and whether or not they have kids are actual illegal interview questions!!!!!!

[Brutha]

believe it or not, when I applied for a taco bell job here where I live, the interviewer asked if I had any kids! to which I replied "no" because I dont. I then changed my answer to say I had furry little kids (my pet cats and ferrets). needless to say I didnt get the job, but they didnt say why.

Not having kids probably wasn't the reason why they didn't hired you.
When you present yourself with an attitude of: "You have no right to ask me that question!", that is unsympatic.

when a hiring manager thinks "company culture" he or she may think in the professional standpoint of 'professional, hardworking, enthusiastic team player.'

You can spot someone who wants a "professional" company culture by the way he and his employes dress.

In addition you shouldn't try to be someone who you aren't. Don't be self-centered (I am here, and give me the job, now!) but shift your attention to the interviewer.

[Angela]

Jessica, you've got a serious case of the yeahbuts.

It seems to me like you're really resisting taking on responsibility, and like you're determined to blame others for not giving you what you want. You're free to do that, of course. It's just not very likely to get you a great job.

In this thread, you requested advice, which has been given in good faith. so far, the only acknowledgement of that has been, "yeah, that may be true, buttttttt..........." which sounds a lot like you're not really being present to anything we say to you. If an interviewer were to get the same impression (and she probably would!) your chances of getting the job are next to nil. Not because you don't fit any "corporate culture," but because no one wants to work with a pain in the ass.

I wish for you the willingness to take 100% responsibility for your life, and that you get everything you want. Good luck!

[1000feet]

It seems to me that if there's forums full of people who aren't getting a certain kind of job (and have actually made an effort to get qualifications or experience), this kind of thing is natural (although stating that someone was passed over just because of their response to a joke may be a rumour). It's clear that there's a lot of people who want these jobs and only a few jobs, so either someone will come in with an education you can never dream of and 20 years of experience and offer to do the job for less than you can live on, or the hiring company will end up with 20-50 people who are equally good.

In that case it's all about who's the best at "closing the sale" by creating an emotional connection and having the employer want them to be the best (the way you sometimes buy things that aren't the best or cheapest because something caught your eye and you just like them). The direction your comments here are going doesn't seem like the best way to do this.

[VetTechJess]

well i have no experience in the veterinary field other than the course I am taking to become a veterinary technician. I try to market that atleast some because thats all I have and hell, its better than nothing. Ive also been thinking of other qualities.

In all the interviews Ive been on, the basis has been "we want experience and you dont have any." It seems typical quandary, you cant get a job without experience but all the same you cannot get experience without first being given the chance at having the job first. Lets face it, everyone, even those with 20+ years experience in whatever field theyre in, at one time had no experience whatsoever and partly relied on an employer to give them the benefit of the doubt and give them a chance to let them prove themselves.

So Ive been thinking and Ive come up with a new gameplan so to speak...(please feel free to add and subtract and modify my gameplan, I need all the *positive* help I can get!!)

Ive decided to market the fact that I have no experience and how that can be an asset, not a liability, to a veterinary office.

Based on the veterinary office interviews Ive been on, when Ive been told that they want experience and that I have none, and I ask why they only want experienced, about the same gist goes as this: (or something along the lines of...)

"people experienced in the veterinary field are easier to train because theyve been there done that before." they also said something along the lines of "itll be easier to train them in our vet offices way of doing things."

so Ive come up with a game plan for that (please help me modify if necessary)

Ive decided to somehow present the fact that while I have no experience whatsoever, it is an asset and not a liability due to the simple fact that:

while I have no experience in the vet office I am also easier to train because I have not been trained in another vets office specific way of doing things. Ive been told that each vets office has a specific way of "doing things" (this is based on both interviews for jobs and asking ppl who work in the vets office what their opinions are and how they got there)

I would tell them that while someone with experience may look nice at first glance on a resume, that it can be an obstacle simply due to the fact that depending on how long that said experienced person has been at the previous clinic (lets say, for the sake of argument that said experienced person has 10 years experience at another clinic,) would be a major obstacle because:

1.) theyve been at the previous clinic X number of years (in this case, ten years) which means that theyve had 10 years of following that other clinics policies and procedures.

2.) which means that theyve been exposed 10 years worth of another veterinary clinics "way of doing things"

3.) which brings me to the fact that they would be more likely to question the way the current new employer does things and would be less likely to change their way of doing things since 10 years of the same way of doing things, tends to die hard.....

4.) which would lead to a constant clash of questioning and not wanting to change which would lead to a stressful work environment.

HOWEVER................

theres me, someone with no experience, who hasnt had any prior training in another vets office's "way of doing things" and would be alot less likely to question and clash with the way things are done and thus would be easier to train and better to like office culture wise.


NOTE: THIS IS A ROUGH DRAFT DONE OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD JUST NOW. IT HAS NOT BEEN SENT OUT TO ANY EMPLOYERS OR TOLD TO ANY EMPLOYERS IN INTERVIEWS. I NEED YOUR HELP IN TRANSLATING IT TO A PROFESSIONAL TONE THAT DOESNT COME ACROSS AS RUDE, CONCEDED, JERKY, ETC. PLEASE HELP ME AS I KNOW IN ITS ROUGH DRAFT FORM IT WOULD NEVER GET ME THE JOB BECAUSE (AND I ADMIT) IT WOULD COME ACROSS AS ARROGANT, ETC.

[Iksander]

Experience means nothing - attitude everything.

I currently work for a high profile entertainment venue here in Las Vegas as a web developer. I am 20 yrs old, and am entirely self-taught in the field (ie, no school); yet here I am making good money with a great amount of professional experience being crammed into my belt.

Why did I tell you that? Because you really can get a good foot-in-the-door job at a clinic, especially if you focus on YOUR positive attributes; rather than criticizing you or them for why or how the job didn't come through.

Instead of focusing energy on ranting, focus your energy on what it is you feel passionate about (I assume it is veterinary medicine) - read books, write up mock business plans for your own clinic and casually peruse job offerings from the local clinics to see what turns up.

I'll bet if you do that and really do relax about it - something just right will pop up out of nowhere.

[Brutha]

Based on the veterinary office interviews Ive been on, when Ive been told that they want experience and that I have none, and I ask why they only want experienced, about the same gist goes as this: (or something along the lines of...)

"people experienced in the veterinary field are easier to train because theyve been there done that before." they also said something along the lines of "itll be easier to train them in our vet offices way of doing things."

The problem is that you give people the impression that you won't want do things the way they want it to be done.
Practially that is what the thread about isn't it?
"The people at the vet office do bad things, they should do them differently."
That is something that is difficult to put into words when you ask the interviewer why they don't want you.
Therefore they will say give you your experience as a reason than your attitude.
But you don't want to change your attitude.

[Doku]

AAAahhhh yes. The dreaded "can't get a job w/o experience, can't get experience w/o job" catch22.

Ever consider something besides working at a vets office? How about working at an animal shelter? Horse farm? Pet grooming? It would not be the same as working in a vet's office, but would get demonstratable experience working with animals beyond your own pets. What about being a vet tech at the university where you are going to school?

I realize that the job hunt can be very frustrating, and there's a lot of truth in the saying "it's easier to get a job if you have a job."

To be able to say "I've been working at PetSmart for the past six months as a pet groomer, trimming hair, clipping nails, doing ears and teeth, etc. And I decided that I wanted to get more into pet health than pet grooming. I've been taking classes to be a vet tech, and am looking for some kind of job at a vets office to kinda get my foot in the door and learn the ropes so that I can hit the ground running when I finish my education." would go much further than the approach you appear to have been taking.

Another approach would be to impress the krap out of your profressor, and ask them... not for a letter of recommendation, but a recommendation of where would be a good place to work. Then call them up and say, "I'm taking classes with Professor X at XYU, and when I talked with him about employment while getting my education, he suggested that I call you. Do you happen to have any openings? Or would you be able to create a part-time opening doing odd jobs in between my classes?"


Bottom line: I don't think that your issue is company culture as much as it is your approach to getting a job.

[Ree]

There really is no place for negative comments in a job interview. It's not going to get you anywhere to point out how 10 years experience working in a vets office is a bad thing. The person interviewing you may have exactly 10 years experience and might take your comments as an insult.

When you're interviewing for a job, it's time to accentuate the positive and leave the negative at home. Obviously, you have an affinity for animals, so concentrate on that. Talk about how you love animals and want to make them your life's work. Talk about the pets you have at home.

For experience, have you considered volunteering at your local SPCA or animal shelter? My community has an organization called Molly's Militia, made up of volunteers who provide foster homes for animals who would otherwise be in line to be euthanized at shelters. Every Saturday, they stage adoption fairs at the local PetsMart and just about anywhere else that will allow them. The foster parents show up with their foster pets and meet and greet the prospective new adoptive parents. All the animals have had physical exams and had their shots and have been spayed/neutered. The adoptive parents pay a small fee to cover those costs and take their new pets home.

Experience can be gained in a volunteer setting as well as in a work setting and when a prospective employer sees that you have volunteered your time and effort, it makes a positive impression.

[Jill]

Some businesses are looking for those without experience, and some are looking for people with experience. It's a waste of everyone's time for you to apply to a job you have no experience for, if they're looking for someone with it.

Find the job opportunities who are looking for someone like YOU and you'll have a much better shot at getting the job!