Nice Guys, Right Guys

[Jamie]

It also occurs to me, while it's important, the words that come out of our mouths, way more important is the energy and intention behind them; or even the energy and intention behind saying nothing. If other people want to be toxic, and revel in the notion that they're at the top of some social ladder, let them. Just be more concerned with the quality of energy that comes out of your being.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

In other words, because you have nothing better to say, you'll say something random (BANANA HAMMOCK) just to fill the silence with white noise.

And you laud this.

Just because people are shallow doesn't mean you have to defend their struggle to remain so.

Uh, I can't tell if you're being fascecious? I don't know what banter means where you're from but where I'm from it doesn't mean saying random words. You could if you wanted to but people might think you were a little weird!

We got some communication problems folks!! Haven't got time to reply to everyone now. I shall be back tomorrow to resume discussion. Yay! Take it easy boys.

[Soul Vibe]

Originally Posted by Plato

Robc... that's quite a post. I was tempted to quote it but managed to restrain myself.

I think the key point to be taken from your post is that it is perfectly possible to be "true to yourself" whilst changing your external behaviours and even thought processes. It requires recognition that the way we behave and think is not who we are.

Who are we then? What is it that defines a person, if not the way we behave and think? I agree with what you are saying, but if a person cannot identify with themselves in some way, what is left? Who is it that the woman falls in love with? I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around this problem (see my last post in this thread). I suppose the answer may lie somewhere in the fact that one man's maturity is another man's devolution, and vice versa... hmm. I just don't know.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Soul Vibe

Who is it that the woman falls in love with?

She falls in love with the image of herself in his mirror.

[missing]

Originally Posted by Plato

We got some communication problems folks!! Haven't got time to reply to everyone now. I shall be back tomorrow to resume discussion. Yay! Take it easy boys.

I agree with the bold and I've got a few ideas as to what is going on (at least in regards to some stuff, we're getting a bit scattered topic-wise), but I'll wait and see how/if this thread continues to develop before posting them.

[missing]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Anyway, my question is, why does 'fat boy', stick around his 'friends'?

I think that's the kind of question only "fat boy" can answer. He may have his reasons, and they may be very compelling. Or not. People have a need to feel part of a group, and often the price for such is suppressing your individuality. For some this is a decent trade off, others not so much. For the most part we are dealt different hands, some better than others. Fair? No but I think we all know that to be a fact of life.

[Vasilisa]

I think that the inability communicate becomes a new plague in our day and age. A lot of people are lonely and afraid of each other.
WE can hide behind the words "we are better, it's all not worthy", but we are actually giving in to our fear and robbing ourselves of the experiencing life in its fullest.
Again the problem is separation from other people where we should try to feel "togetherness".
Jamie, you are asking why you should put yourself out there and give people a chance "to stomp on you" to satisfy their egos...
The thing is that if you are afraid of the bad experience and do not take a risk, you will never get a good experience.
You need to work on your courage.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

Jamie, you are asking why you should put yourself out there and give people a chance "to stomp on you" to satisfy their egos...

Hmmm, not really.

I merely question the wisdom of putting yourself in to a vulnerable position with people who are behave in a seemigly cruel and unkind way.

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

The thing is that if you are afraid of the bad experience and do not take a risk, you will never get a good experience.

Is there such a thing as 'good' experience, or 'bad' experience; what makes one experience good and another bad? It's an interesting question?

Ultimately, I think it's all good, like a child in a fun fair, you can try different things and get different results. Sometimes the results are not to our liking, as when I say that I despise shallow women, I get 'wonderwoman' on my case (sorry Angela, I love you really). It's all a learning process, and also a learning process in how best to articulate and express ourselves through the medium of language.

I take your point though, there is always a thing of risk, of putting yourself on the line; but we can put ourselves on the line either skillfully, smooth and swave and seemingly effortless, or clumsily.

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

You need to work on your courage.

Explain please, what do YOU think 'courage' is?

Peace,
x

[Vasilisa]

For me courage is acting inspite of fear.
In this case, say, if I am afraid that someone can hurt my ego, I just start interacting with the person anyway, before my fear became overwhelming and I can't deal with it.

Yes, they say that experiences cant' be bad. But if you experience makes you scared to do something later and limits your abilities in any area (personal interactions in this case) I wouldn't call it good.
Who wouldn't like to be smooth and skillfull in major areas of life? But unfortunately it rarely comes without experience, ups and downs and clumsiness. For me the answer is just "keep trying".
You can't imagine how alien people in States seem to me sometimes and how scared I used to be of communicating with them with my clumsy language and different views. But It's the question of survival. You either trying inspite of fear and putting yourself on the line, sometimes being ridiculed and "stomped on", but you are still learning and improving or you will always be "different" and have much fewer opportunities than those who are not scared.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Explain please, what do YOU think 'courage' is?

I thought about this question and I came across an answer in Kahlil Gibran's "The Prophet" which I was reading earlier.
In the section on love he says:

"But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,
Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,
Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears."

I interpret that as being the life where you shut yourself off from the potential of getting hurt and subsequently diminish life.

Later in the section he says:

"Love has no other desire but to fulfil itself.
But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:
To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.
To know the pain of too much tenderness.
To be wounded by your own understanding of love;
And to bleed willingly and joyfully."

If you want to read all of it, it's online and it's not very long-
The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran

It's awesome. Really deep. One of the Pav's top reccommendations too.

[Vasilisa]

"I interpret that as being the life where you shut yourself off from the potential of getting hurt and subsequently diminish life."

yes, that's what I wanted to say "diminish life" out of fear is the opposite of courage.

[Jamie]

Plato, yes yes; the Kahlil Gibran think reminds me that fear (which stops us from acting) is linked to doing things for a selfish reason, esp. where relationships and just interacting with other people, is concerned. In contrast, if you're coming from a genuine loving and giving place, the fear isn't there, or isn't so strong.

Vasilisa; yes, I very much agree with your views on courage, it could be a whole new thread in fact. Not being inhibited by our fears, but to keep expressing ourselves.

[agnostic]

Here's my take on the nice guy issue, having recovered from being one:

Nice guys are socially anxious, especially around women. They base their self-worth (by itself a valueless concept) on what other people, especially women, think about them. This drains them of all sense of power and drives them into victimhood. They then begin hating the people whose approval they so desperately need, because they don't get it.
The cure is rather simple, once you understand it. Live your life for yourself. Don't care what other people think. Follow your idea of what you want your life to be and not other people's expectations.
Live an exciting and successful life on your own terms.

[Vasilisa]

Agnostic, that's exactly what Jamie is doing, but it doesn't help him to get rid of his anxiety around women.
The thing is that most of us need social approval in one or another degree. And more than that anyone wants to have friends and lovers. Quality of life is not the same if we don't have anybody to hold our hand, to listen to us, to hug and to make love to.
Denying it is just trying to justify social anxiety and fear.
In my opinion in order not to be worried so much in a particular situation a person should throw oneself in the situation inspite of fear over and over, learning from mistakes until anxiety faids. That's what I usually do.
May be reminding oneself that it's just a learning process and any clumsiness and mistakes are allowed will help?

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

Agnostic, that's exactly what Jamie is doing, but it doesn't help him to get rid of his anxiety around women.
The thing is that most of us need social approvement in one or another degree. And more than that anyone wants to have friends and lovers. Quality of life is not the same if we don't have anybody to hold our hand, to listen to us, to hug and to make love to.
Denying it is just trying to justify social anxiety and fear.
In my opinion in order not to be worried so much in a particular situation a person should throw oneself in the situation inspite of fear over and over, learning from mistakes until anxiety faids. That's what I usually do.
May be reminding oneself that it's just a learning process and any clumsiness and mistakes are allowed will help?

Absolutely agree.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

Agnostic, that's exactly what Jamie is doing, but it doesn't help him to get rid of his anxiety around women.

Yep, to a degree, I am. However, my own situation, isn't so simple.

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

In my opinion in order not to be worried so much in a particular situation a person should throw oneself in the situation inspite of fear over and over, learning from mistakes until anxiety faids. That's what I usually do.
May be reminding oneself that it's just a learning process and any clumsiness and mistakes are allowed will help?

Sure.

I think it's also a lot to do with beliefs.
I was out dancing tonight; and had maybe 3 dances with this woman I'm very strongly attracted to, I like her on so many levels, just about in every way. My ideal really. She's realy cheeky, naughty and fun with it.

In contrast, dancing with other women, there just isn't the same energy, or feeling, or heart-felt connection there. However, I can sense other women, getting quite frisky in my company, very close body contact etc. But without the 'feeling' bit, what's the point? Then I feel a little guilty for dancing close, because I don't want to lead her on.

I have loads of dances with lots of women, and it's such a wonderful (mutual) experience. However, while I'm so strongly attracted to this one women, it feels kinda futile that, I won't be open to other women. Even just for a s**g or something.

I guess, sometimes, everything just don't feel right. So I guess what I'm saying is that I didn't want to progress anything with the girl I was close dancing with because it wasn't what I wanted in my heart of hearts, the love wasn't there. I guess we need that, or it helps big-time, to have that heart connection, to really really want to be with someone, not just because they're there, but because you love them, like them, and want them completely.

*sigh*

Probably screwed up.

[Vasilisa]

Jamie, I am sorry I didn't quite get it this time. Are you in love with that "Cheeky and naughty" girl? That' s why every other woman is not good enough?
But what about her? Does she give any signs, that she likes you?
I understand though, when I am in love I can like and desire other people, but these feelings are kind of empty.

[Jamie]

I believe I am; or at the very least I have very strong feelings for her that reach to the core of my being. She's so incredibly lovely, in my eyes, and I kinda feel like a puppy dog near her; though I have enough self-control not to fawn over her or chase her around. In any-case, she's unobtainable (married). Looking in to her eyes, I get the impression she likes me too, but she's a very likable person and is friendly with everyone.

In contrast to how I feel about her, for most other women, I feel nothing. They don't set me on fire, light up my soul, it's not the same. So as I was dancing with other ladies (as happens at salsa parties), though I completely love the dancing, and am respectful and friendly with them all, I don't want to escalate things to a relationship or sex with them. I guess they don't engage the fullness of my being, like this other woman does; and that's what I want. I think it's what we all want, deep down.

So the woman I really like, I also love dancing with her, she's one of the top dancers in the local scene; god she's fun to dance with ...

[Yellow]

Originally Posted by Old Soul

They like to see a little vulnerability, coupled with strength, a sense of humor too

They like to be supported in their endevours , not rescued...they want to walk side by side with their partners not one step behind or one step ahead

They avoid all men who are moma's boys

Very, very, very true.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Yellow

Very, very, very true.

You've met Old Soul's daughters!

[Vasilisa]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I believe I am; or at the very least I have very strong feelings for her that reach to the core of my being. She's so incredibly lovely, in my eyes, and I kinda feel like a puppy dog near her; though I have enough self-control not to fawn over her or chase her around. In any-case, she's unobtainable (married). Looking in to her eyes, I get the impression she likes me too, but she's a very likable person and is friendly with everyone.

In contrast to how I feel about her, for most other women, I feel nothing. They don't set me on fire, light up my soul, it's not the same. So as I was dancing with other ladies (as happens at salsa parties), though I completely love the dancing, and am respectful and friendly with them all, I don't want to escalate things to a relationship or sex with them. I guess they don't engage the fullness of my being, like this other woman does; and that's what I want. I think it's what we all want, deep down.

So the woman I really like, I also love dancing with her, she's one of the top dancers in the local scene; god she's fun to dance with ...

Then your main problem is that you are in love with unavailable woman.
Unless subconsiously you tend to fall in love only with unavailable women to
give yourself a reason not to act and be safe from rejection. It's just a thought.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

Then your main problem is that you are in love with unavailable woman.
Unless subconsiously you tend to fall in love only with unavailable women to
give yourself a reason not to act and be safe from rejection. It's just a thought.

Well ... with one unavailable woman. It's not something I make a habit out of!!

The thought had crossed my mind, that subconsiously I have a lot of mis-givings about relationships and women in general, and that maybe I am sabotaging my 'chances' by (on a soul level?) falling in love with unobtainable women. It is possible.

It's a challenge for me to gain anything of positive value from the situation. I do though, and it teaches me a lot about myself, and about the nature of love.

Many people say that love hurts; and having been in this situation with this woman for maybe 5 years, I have to disagree. Love never hurts. It's the wanting and thinking that hurts, it's when our minds turn love in to 'wanting to possess', that's how we torture ourselves.

I want a hot girlfriend. Someone who also resonates with me, on a soul level.

[Vasilisa]

"I want a hot girlfriend. Someone who also resonates with me, on a soul level."

Who doesn't?

[garentee]

being attracted to unavailable women is a pain in the a%$.That said usually the reason it ever happens is that you yourself are unavailable. I sense that Jamie is in that camp based on some of the comments he has made. It is a strange place to be when someone tells you this. I have a really good friend who just told this to me the other day and it has sent me scrambling all over the place looking at things that I havent looked at before... I am striving to become more available to the outside now that i know that my patterns are all from my own fears and insecurities. the long and short of this very interesting topic is that We as humans need to communicate better with one another and this forum is a great tool for that. Weather women go for good guy or bad guy or what have you is really based on whats in their past and whats on their plate at the present time. Nothing that anyone does or says is because of you. It is what is in their reality at the time. So it is best to take nothing personally and make no assumptions. The best book that I have read recently that deals with this sort of thing is called the four agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.. As usual disjointed thoughts and not enough time to string them together right now. Great topic.G

[Soul Vibe]

All this talk about availability... While I agree that people make themselves unavailable, by building all these walls around them, and thus, becoming attracted to more unavailable people in turn, I don't think the opposite is any more helpful. To be too available, (dare I say?) "needy" even. It's interesting to me how many people find themselves burning the candle at both ends. One moment they are protecting their emotions and becoming unavailable, the next they realize they have shut themselves off and become desperately lonely. Acting out of desperation rarely produces desirable results, so we're right back to building walls. Where is the middle ground? Where is the balance? How does one find that place, and more importantly, how does one inspire those around them to discover it as well?

[garentee]

There is a fine line and balance and the only way to find it (not that I have) is to try different tactics til you are comfortable with who and where you are. G