Nice Guys, Right Guys

[Soul Vibe]

Thank you Brien, I always intend to go back and edit for structure, but rarely do. In the future, I will keep in mind that

The walls of text can cause "tl;dr" in hurried readers.

[Soul Vibe]

LOL - Brien, that comic is hilarious! Yes, that is precisely how I feel.

[fascinoma]

The female equivalent of that FastSeduction stuff is "The Rules".

I'm a follower of Dr. Tracy... her site is Love Advice from Dr. Tracy Cabot.

The whole problem is overgiving - whether it's men or women doing the overgiving, whether the relationships are heterosexual or homosexual.

Don't give so much in the beginning that your intended doesn't have room to fantasize about you. Don't push togetherness too much, let the other person actually have a chance to reciprocate... Flowers are good, compliments are good, but don't bury the person... it should be common sense...

[Erock]

I think the problem stems from a nice guy's parent's relationship. For example, my dad, although he is an amazing guy, is definitely less dominate in the relationship than my mom. That's really the only flaw in him, but it's something that has definitely affected my life. I've had to work really hard at developing my own masculine side, and I've had to look elsewhere for models of that. I think that every young man's model of masculinity should be his father, and a lot of young American males aren't getting that.

Erock

[fascinoma]

I also see traditional masculinity being less of an influence.

In my generation (Generation X) and younger, girls grew up with "Girl Power" "Girls can do anything!", Punky Brewster, Riot Grrls, Geraldine Ferrarro being the first woman vice presidential candidate, and Hillary Clinton. Boys on the other hand are discouraged from being boys. It's sort of like girls/women can be Everything, and boys are just sort of reduced to being emasculated figures who can't grow up to be either women or men. Women don't even need men to get pregnant, anymore. They can go to the sperm bank. The choice of whether a father is in the life of their baby is the woman's, not the man's. However, a man who wants a baby and wants to raise that baby pretty much still needs a wife and if there's a divorce, he has to fight like hell.

In my generation it seems like more girls grow up to wear the power suit while a lot of guys remain in a psychosexual state of perpetual boyhood.

Some of these "nice guys" try to approach women like a female friend approaches a woman. It does not work any more than women being "one of the guys" gets women dates.

These guys also don't tend to be very guy-identified.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by fascinoma

I also see traditional masculinity being less of an influence.

In my generation (Generation X) and younger, girls grew up with "Girl Power" "Girls can do anything!", Punky Brewster, Riot Grrls, Geraldine Ferrarro being the first woman vice presidential candidate, and Hillary Clinton. Boys on the other hand are discouraged from being boys. It's sort of like girls/women can be Everything, and boys are just sort of reduced to being emasculated figures who can't grow up to be either women or men. Women don't even need men to get pregnant, anymore. They can go to the sperm bank. The choice of whether a father is in the life of their baby is the woman's, not the man's. However, a man who wants a baby and wants to raise that baby pretty much still needs a wife and if there's a divorce, he has to fight like hell.

In my generation it seems like more girls grow up to wear the power suit while a lot of guys remain in a psychosexual state of perpetual boyhood.

Some of these "nice guys" try to approach women like a female friend approaches a woman. It does not work any more than women being "one of the guys" gets women dates.

These guys also don't tend to be very guy-identified.

Have to agree with this; there's no way (it's not ok) for men to be men in this day and age. It's very easy for a guy to feel totally pee'd off at the whole woman thing, and not want anything to do with them; which I think is a perfectly natural response after years of ill treatment.

I'm a very truthful, honest, loving and affectionate guy, or at least I used to be; not so much anymore, it's been knocked out of me, by the way (most) women are, by the way society is.

I'm not really that bitter about it either, but I am resigned to being single, and not trusting women, and probably despising most of them, how they are, how they feel it's OK to be abusive (in all kinds of way) towards men, and that real men should be able to take that kinda crap, yadda yadda.

[steve0617]

Generation X nice guys (guys like me in the mid to late 30's) did exactly what was posted here. We most likely had a lousy (or missing) relationship with our dad (we never really learning how to be a guy), and we were bombarded with girl power (nothing wrong with that) ideas and the wussification (a new word!) of men through the 70's and 80's. Thus, wimpy nice guys who want to please women since that's what 'good boys' did to please their mothers.

Now, I am NOT suggesting that there's anything wrong with the female side of raising kids. Nor am I blaming women AT ALL. But for a male child of the 70's and 80's to not also experience positive male role models can absolutely contribute to Nice Guyisms.

Oh, and what do women want? (My $0.02 and what I've seen first hand)

A good man with an edge.

A man who's honest, ethical, upstanding, communicative and loving, but who still has guy qualities like strength, perseverance, courage, goals, advancement and achievement. Guys who may be the first set but who also sit on the couch all day long and never actually implement anything? Not attractive.

At least that's what I've experienced in my dating life.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I'm not really that bitter about it either, but I am resigned to being single, and not trusting women, and probably despising most of them, how they are, how they feel it's OK to be abusive (in all kinds of way) towards men, and that real men should be able to take that kinda crap, yadda yadda.

I guess you've never tried going out and intentionally getting rejected by multitudes of girls? At first it's like ripping off plasters but there comes a point where you realise it doesn't hurt... and the more creatively you go about getting rejected the more fun you start having... and the more difficult it becomes to get those damn girls to reject you.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Plato

I guess you've never tried going out and intentionally getting rejected by multitudes of girls? At first it's like ripping off plasters but there comes a point where you realise it doesn't hurt... and the more creatively you go about getting rejected the more fun you start having... and the more difficult it becomes to get those damn girls to reject you.

Why would I wanna go out and get rejected by multiple women? A lot of women, who I find physically attractive, I actually find quite repugnant, personality wise, in their attitudes and mannerisms. I don't need to go out and play silly head games (mostly with myself), or getting rejected on purpose. Okay, if other people do, but it's just not for me.

It's also like, what do you gravitate towards? For me, it's myself; by that, I mean the energy and awareness within my own being, I focus on that, like a light, and more and more I find my each moment of life to be bliss. When you focus on that light within you, it gets brighter, and feeds you, emotionally, and other people notice it too; when you're not chasing women (instead, you focus on your own inner light), they start to show a lot more interest in you, and you're just indifferent, but still polite.

I just don't hold much hope though, because I notice most nice looking ladies, who I find physically attractive, to be quite shallow. I guess they're used to being in a position of power with most men, and it gets to their heads? That said, it would be nice to meet someone attractive, and also with depth and self-awareness.

That's how it is for me, and I don't do stupid silly games with people, and I just be myself, sincere. How people react to me, well, that's their business.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I guess they're used to being in a position of power with most men, and it gets to their heads? That said, it would be nice to meet someone attractive, and also with depth and self-awareness.

"Girls aren't b*tches, they're only b*tches to you." A quote I heard once. It is crude but very much to the point.

And who said anything about chasing girls? Certainly not me. I was talking about getting over fear of rejection by experiencing it so often your brain realises it's not a bad thing. In fact, rejection doesn't even exist because you can't be rejected by somebody who you were just having a good time with. Without fear of girls it's actually possible to see the best in them- neither as untouchable goddesses or shallow whores- actually as human beings who are just looking for the same things as everyone else. But no, you're right Jamie, you're too good for girls.

Peace.

[Vasilisa]

I think everybody is too preoccupied with being liked by other sex. A person should be oneself in the relationship. With all bad and good traits.
Honest and open. That's about it.
If you feel a need for something - say about it. If you want a woman -express it in some way (subtle . If she doesn't like it , don't bother, there are plenty of others.
Give flowers, say compliments and pay in the restaurants but only if you want to do it for this particular woman, if you want to make her happy and get a smile on her face, not because you want get something out of her. If you don't feel it, don't do it. We feel when it's fake.
And the biggest turn on for women is brave, courageous men. We don't like chickens, so don't behave like one. Get rid of the submissive postures, too sweet smiles and feminine gestures. And if you have a chance to demonstrate your confidence and courage in front of the woman in the social situation - you are lucky, don't miss it!
I could say more. But I am afraid to say too much.
I constantly discuss stuff like that with my girlfriends, so I have a general view of what most of us like.

[garentee]

The real issue is that people are attracted to whats in their past. I have been going after emotionally unavailable women for quite a while. I have recently come to realize what my pattern was. The problem is that it is easy to get yourself in trouble if you really like someone. I had a small fling with a really really good friend of mine recently and she is going through a divorce. A classic emotionally unavailable ... Since we have a really deep friendship I fooled myself into thinking that she was different. NOT SO!!!!!!! Shes a classic garentee pattern. The thing about it though was that I kept an eye on myself through the whole thing and learned sooooo much.
At the end of the day the good guy bad guy thing does not have much to do with it... Its how you say what you say and how you make her feel...

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Plato

But no, you're right Jamie, you're too good for girls.

I lol'd, because I was trying to decide whether or not to write that myself.

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

I think everybody is too preoccupied with being liked by other sex. A person should be oneself in the relationship.

I agree. People should experiment with homosexuality, too. Especially guys. And with doing something by yourself, intentionally, deliberately, for weeks.

[missing]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I agree. People should experiment with homosexuality, too. Especially guys.

I honestly can't tell if you are being tongue in cheek, but I think this is lousy advice. Many people are confused enough sexually and that's the LAST fire you want to throw fuel on. If you are gay, you are going to know it without experimenting.

I'd also add, in regards to Jamie's plight, that hating women because they aren't how you want them to be, is akin to hating gravity because it doesn't let you fly. If you want to be angry about something, be angry at the social conditioning that lied to you about female nature. You could probably channel that anger to get chicks into you, but you don't want them anyway, those superficial little b*tches... right?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by missing

I honestly can't tell if you are being tongue in cheek, but I think this is lousy advice. Many people are confused enough sexually and that's the LAST fire you want to throw fuel on. If you are gay, you are going to know it without experimenting.

No, the point is to recognize that men are as sexual, and as obvious about it, as women are: this is a point most men miss. Try to understand the male half of the species from the perspective of someone who sizes up a guy as a sex object. And if you're male and you're not capable of stepping into the shoes of an actual female, then the next best thing is to step into the shoes of another male.

It's a short step from recognizing other guys as sexual to recognizing yourself as sexual. It helps you understand how women can feel about being objectified, as well as delivering numerous insights on myriads of topics.

You'll discover yourself just fine through other means. Masturbate and sample different types of women and you'll orient your sexuality just fine; frankly, it's a little hard to fail. Really, the only way to fail is to not experiment. All I'm doing is suggesting that you experiment with the entire human race, rather than just half of it.

And by the same token, I equally advise all women to experiment with homosexuality. Most average women tend to size up their gender in terms of what males see, which is nice but frequently... annoying. Looking at someone from the perspective of your own desires brings something different to the table.

As a bonus, doing this also makes it that much harder to be a sexist: it steps on the gender boundary rather rudely.

P.S. Masturbation is not what I meant when I said you should do something by yourself for weeks. -_- I meant something like... backpacking on a weekend, travelling, or even just touring your city and sampling restaurants. Become a connoisseur of something random. Like street musicians.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Plato

But no, you're right Jamie, you're too good for girls.

Ah, you're suggesting that I'm a snob and elitist in my thinking? (that I consider myself to be better than other people etc). Is that what you're saying? It's the impression I get, appologies if I am mistaken, it's just that I can't see 'being too good for' in a positive light at all, it strikes me as being very elitist, which I find somewhat abhorent.

Peace to you also.

Jamie.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I lol'd, because I was trying to decide whether or not to write that myself.

Why beat around the bush, if you've got something to say, or find fault with anything I've said, spit it out man! Articulate yourself, you may well have a point, and it may well be something I need to consider or take on board. No need to be obtuse or flippant about it.

Thanks.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by missing

I'd also add, in regards to Jamie's plight, that hating women because they aren't how you want them to be, is akin to hating gravity because it doesn't let you fly.

You seem to be suggesting that I hate women? or perhaps I gave that impression? It's not the case at all. It's more like an indifference, though underneath it all, I recognise that women are as much part and parcel of nature as are men; we're all expressions of the divine and have depth without limit, though some of us recognise this more that others (and I believe our ability to recognise such, has little to do with our gender). So that the same source that gives life to me, gives life to all life; the more a person recognises this truth, the less able he is to hate other life forms.

All that said, it's true, I don't like the silly games; but neither do I need them (as I need, or cannot escape, gravity); so I believe your analogy is misleading in some ways.

Originally Posted by missing

If you want to be angry about something, be angry at the social conditioning that lied to you about female nature. You could probably channel that anger to get chicks into you, but you don't want them anyway, those superficial little b*tches... right?

I don't want to be angry about anything. Why would anyone want to be angry? Anger only leads to pain; much better to accept, and cultivate loving and nurturing energy within ourselves.

Jamie.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Ah, you're suggesting that I'm a snob and elitist in my thinking? (that I consider myself to be better than other people etc).

You seem chilled which I respect and I'm sorry for being so abrupt. In fact it's really none of my business but I was trying to get you to see in yourself what I see in myself: fear. Or to be more precise, fear of having your ego hurt by girls not treating you the way your ego thinks you should be treated. Thing is with these ego constructs you can never be on the same level as somebody else- you are either above them (the ego construct you have created, where nobody is interesting to you), or below where everybody is attractive to you! I've experienced both sides and neither is fulfilling at all. It's why spirituality is so fundamental to good relationships and all these guys who play "silly stupid games" are meditating away to reveal their authentic self. Cracks me up just thinking about it.

I of course started out at the low end of the scale so I really was chasing girls, in the sense I thought I didn't deserve them. By the way, the fact that I talk as if there is a "Them and Us" is suggestive of my unhealthy state of mind- beyond that way of thinking everybody is on the same side, as you know. So I decided to get this part of my life handled so I went out 7 nights a week for a year like a man on a mission. Then after getting what I wanted I found I didn't like it. Every time a girl fell for me my ego suddenly placed me as better than her... and I lost my attraction for her. Ridiculous. My mistake at this point was to come to the same conclusion as you- that girls are shallow blah blah and that I was all of a sudden, too good for them! I stopped going out to protect my precious ego, I refused to be more than polite to girls (except the special few around whom I was comfortable enough to be myself), preffering to hang out with my buddies, and only recently I've began to realise how god damned scared I am of getting hurt. The only way to be true to oneself is to have the courage to put your personality on the line and maybe, just maybe you'll meet somebody who connects deeply with that part of you. More often than not girls will have their egos in the way too so they'll still want to have sex with you, be your girlfriend, whatever because you're such an authentic, nonjudgmental, fun guy, but you'll know when the enlightened girls come along.

If you want to see the home of the spiritual chasers of womankind have a look at Real Social Dynamics Nation - Powered by vBulletin. It's very ironic but at the same, they're really onto something and guys who stick with that are going to find a place of peace and sexual abundance. I recently include myself as one of those on the path to that place.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Plato

You seem chilled which I respect and I'm sorry for being so abrupt. In fact it's really none of my business but I was trying to get you to see in yourself what I see in myself: fear. Or to be more precise, fear of having your ego hurt by girls not treating you the way your ego thinks you should be treated. Thing is with these ego constructs you can never be on the same level as somebody else- you are either above them (the ego construct you have created, where nobody is interesting to you), or below where everybody is attractive to you! I've experienced both sides and neither is fulfilling at all. It's why spirituality is so fundamental to good relationships and all these guys who play "silly stupid games" are meditating away to reveal their authentic self. Cracks me up just thinking about it.

You know, I'm really more than happy to talk about this stuff. It's not like I'm saying my way is better than anyone else's either, it's just my way, of working through this stuff, and we'll all have our own way, I guess. What's good for one person, may not be so good for another; same with everything in life.

One thing with the spirituality aspect to all this, is how people have a tendency to go looking for happiness and satisfaction in the world, out there. When all along, you have everything you need already within you. In recent times, I just feel like I'm making massive progress in terms of connecting with myself, really knowing who and what I am, it's hard to describe, and words will never explain; but I hope you get what I mean, it's just a spirutal journey thing, I guess. I don't have a relationship to get in the way of that, I'm pretty content with how things are, and I can be civil and friendly with women, and I have a lot of salsa friends who are women, and the interactions always seem fun, friendly, and genuine.

There's also the thing of recognising the divinity (not in a religious sense), in a woman; she's the spark of creation, just as much as we are. I dunno, I think in some sense I become more and more not needing to ball her, to have a connection and enjoy her company.

Again, I can't say that this is right for all guys, it's just the way I'm personally going with this.

I do think it's an amazing powerful thing though, not to be needy; to be content right as you are, and not just in regards to sex and relationships, it's in any aspect of life (like business etc), a generic principle.

Of course, I have a lot to learn and to grow and to change; but I feel quite sure to go my own way with this, your own way is always the right way (for you).

I also tried forcing this issue, going out, smiling at girls and stuff; I really didn't like it, just felt forced, unnatural, wierd. In contrast, when I'm natural, and spontaneous, things just flow and 'work'.

I still don't know why it is though, maybe some of the more flirty type girls, just turn me off, maybe they're not so aware of their own depth, and haven't matured enough, for my liking; though on a purely physical level, I can be attracted, other aspects of my being just get turned off by her. It's like women who wear skimpy clothes in cold weather; I just think she must be thick and lack intelligence or care for her own well-being (I told my sister this, she laughed!).

Jamie.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Jamie

It's very easy for a guy to feel totally pee'd off at the whole woman thing, and not want anything to do with them; which I think is a perfectly natural response after years of ill treatment....

I'm not really that bitter about it either, but I am resigned to being single, and not trusting women, and probably despising most of them, how they are, how they feel it's OK to be abusive (in all kinds of way) towards men, and that real men should be able to take that kinda crap, yadda yadda.

Jamie, you say you don't hate women in one post, and in another you say you despise most of us -- that we feel it's ok to be abusive in all kinds of ways and that real me should take that kinda crap, and that we're not trustworthy. But you're not bitter!

It doesn't feel good to be despised. It doesn't exactly create a warm fuzzy feeling for me, and my guess is that other women feel as I do -- it tends to make us either mirror your bad feelings or in more self-aware women, to just stay away. That's not what you want, I don't think; but can you see how you're actually the source of it?

[Jamie]

I don't know that I am the source of it Angela.

The kind of women I don't like so much (that I refer to here), are the calous, less aware kind, who are manipulative and just think it's a fun game, being cruel to men. Sometimes I feel like the majority of women are that way; yep, I know it's probably not true, but it is how I feel at times.

I remember from way back in school, I've always been a fairly genuine and honest person, and say what I feel, and perhaps don't have so much guile or craftiness about me. The world doesn't seem to value truthfulness or fairness in people, women certainly don't seem to value that. Anyway, yes, even back in primary school, I remember girls not liking me, dispising me, and could be quite cruel. I think that started me on the road to not trusting women so much.

But you're right, it doens't feel good to be despised. It doens't create a good feeling for me either (from being on the recieving end of it for so long), and in some deeper ways, it's no so important if your the giver or reciever of it.

People are like sponges, we soak up our environment, and emotions of the people around us; so what's there, in me, it's just what's come to me; that I have absorbed, not what's come FROM me. I don't purposefully set out to despise women (or anyone else for that matter, in fact I do healing meditations to heal the hurt I feel). How well I process and let go of that pain, and can resolve those issues, is another matter. Does that make sense?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I don't know that I am the source of it Angela.... Sometimes I feel like the majority of women are that way; yep, I know it's probably not true, but it is how I feel at times.

That is how you are sourcing it -- by thinking thoughts that most women are such and such, you are having your whole world occur for you as a world full of such and such women. Imagine if you were the source of "I love women!" thoughts. "Women are doing the best they can, just like I am, and I am totally having fun learning about how to be joyful and connected with women!" Your entire world would be different, the women in your life would be responding to you in a new way, and you would be attracting women with whom you can joyfully connect. You might be thinking, "nah, I'd just be delusional." and that would be more sourcing, too!

But you're right, it doens't feel good to be despised. It doens't create a good feeling for me either (from being on the recieving end of it for so long), and in some deeper ways, it's no so important if your the giver or reciever of it.

That is a very wise and valuable insight.

You seem to have it that your despising is something that *happens to you* -- like it's an external force that works upon you. That has you feeling like a paper boat on the sea. A powerful way to "process" that is to try on a new way of being, one that works better, and inspire yourself. You can live your life like a paper boat on the sea if you want to, but what if you were to try on being the captain of your own steamliner? Or maybe even Neptune?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Why beat around the bush, if you've got something to say, or find fault with anything I've said, spit it out man! Articulate yourself, you may well have a point, and it may well be something I need to consider or take on board. No need to be obtuse or flippant about it.

Thanks.

I did. Plato captured the exact sentiment I perceived in your writing. You're Enlightened, and find entire swaths of the female population Repugnant and Shallow. This is simply not true. While there exist people, many people, who are utterly and completely irredeemable as human beings, these people are and remain interesting if you spend enough time and effort drawing it out of them.

To dismiss, out of hand, some random vast majority and all future possibilities: this is elitist and sexist.

[Jamie]

I think I've made a serious mistake here; in being so open and vulnerable with people I don't really know.

This can be a very painful issue for me, very painful, and not something I care to debate in a public arena. I could so easily do that, and try to express my opinions and where I'm coming from, and how I'm dealing with it; but I get the distinct feeling that some people just don't give a damn; so why should I give anyone the satisfaction of exposing my vulnerable inner core (so their egos' can feel superiour?).

While some of the particular ideas and solutions offered here, are not how I would chose to deal with these issues, I very much apprecieate the spirit in which they're offered.

Thanks for all the fish!

Jamie.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Jamie

so why should I give anyone the satisfaction of exposing my vulnerable inner core (so their egos' can feel superiour?).

Actually, it's not for us it's for you! I am not saying there is anything at all you *should* do, but just consider that being vulnerable is a powerful place rather than a scary one.

Have you seen our thread? http://http://www.stevepavlina.com/f...+vulnerability

Maybe your resistance means you have a great opportunity. You don't have to work through it with us here, but why not take a closer look for yourself?

[missing]

well I for one am thankful you have been so open. I doubt I would post here if I didn't see it as a place where one could do such things. Who knows, perhaps it is not but I haven't given up yet. In many ways I completely agree with your general position re: women. I have to apologize if I come off as an ass or am projecting the wrong things onto you. Neither is my intent. Mostly I just don't believe you when you say that "you are not bitter". This isn't really personal. I feel the same way about anyone, male or female, when they say things about how they "don't need the opposite sex" and that they are not "bitter" that things aren't working out. It's sort of like the aging lybyrated career womyn who prominently proclaims any chance she gets, that she needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. Who is she kidding? Men and women do need one another, and it's really a tragedy that society works so hard to keep us at one another's throats.

I can totally understand not wanting to be a part of that situation, and not wanting to engage in things like "chasing women". Neither do I! But that doesn't mean I like not participating in this situation, and I don't get the sense that you do either. We'd both rather satisfy a need for female companionship in an honest, open way. And society gives us no help in this manner. I don't know about you but this makes me angry. I realize that anger is not a preferable state to be in, but their are worse things to be. If anger is one's legitimate response to a situation, I don't see why one should try and skirt around it. It's at least a step up from depression as feelings are being directed outward rather than inward, which may eventually lead to action. Maybe not, but you've gotta start somewhere.

Of course if as you claim you are not angry about things that's fine. I don't understand it but you feel what you feel and no matter what it's perfectly valid. It still does concern me when you say you will be "despising most women" while claiming not to hate them. I feel that to be a rather slippery slope to go down, simply because I don't see it lining up to reality. Perhaps it helps me that I have lived with attractive women (as roommates) and while they exhibited the same issues as most women, the kind that annoy the piss out of both you and I, it was easy to see they were not power tripping about it. They were simply confused, and not particularly happy about it. These were not shallow people either, and for the most part intelligent, but they were caught up in a cultural inertia like most of us. Now I'm not saying one should be feeling sympathy for them, but it helps to understand why they are the way they are, simply to better one's own understanding of reality. I think convincing yourself that women are somehow out to get men is doing yourself a disservice in that you are convincing yourself of a false reality. And in the end by doing so you will only be hurting yourself.

But this is just my take so I could of course be way off.

[Jamie]

Dear missing,

There really is very little bitterness in me, and it only comes up if I dwell on, or think about the situation.

In life, and I think for all people, when there's something that's troubling us, and we don't know the solution, it's often better to just let it go, and put it to one side; then go focus on something else. Our own bodies know what's best, if we just stop thinking about things, things tend to resolve themsevles.

So that's just what I've done here, and I've found the focusing on something else to be quite a good thing. Work, spiritual growth, connecting with myself, doing things I love with my life. It's by no means a bad situation with me, and I genuinely find that my life is fine, being single.

In contrast, when I think about having a girl friend, I have so many negative assosiations with that, it's something I prefer to avoid. Are my negative assosiations grounded in reality? who knows! However, I do have them (and recognise them for what they are). I see the whole chasing women, being in relationship with a woman, to be a complete pain in the a$$, and more trouble than it's worth, and not at all nourishing and wholesome.

With the last girl friend I had (not had many), I confided in her, trusted her, was honest and open, and vulnerable with her; big mistake! When the relationship ended, she flipped out on me, and spread rumours and shared the private information I'd told her, with all and sundry; in an attempt to hurt and injure me.

Life experience, and also my own observations, as to the nature of people, make me very cautious about having anything to do with women.

Of course, men and women, have the exact same capacity for being 'good' or 'bad' people, and there is much variation within both genders. I'm not saying all women are bad or anything; as I've said before, we're all 'life' and all come from the same source.

I'm choosing not to dwell on bitterness. I can take or leave people, and for the most part, I'm easy going and natural and spontaneous. I certainly do not accept the sentiment that I'm a misogonist, or elitist; that's simply not true.

I really think that not making an effort, is the best way to go, in forging relationships with people. Also, that the most important issue, is the love you feel within youself; I think it's completely possible, and acceptable, to find the love and acceptance within yourself, and have less need to go looking for it from other people. It's ok for it to come from other people, of course, and to be open to that is fine. Just to not go looking for it, because you've already found that within, is fine too.

I hope that makes some sense. It's a subtle thing. I also appologise if I was harsh with anyone; I kinda felt like I was being branded a misogonist. Maybe I am, I dunno, I am what I am; and I totally accept that we create our own realities (based on our beliefs, and the energies we project, or allow to remain with us).

Perhaps I have some mis-trust and also fear of women (am sure I do). I'm not sure; but I suspect that a greater fear I have, is of losing my natural state. It's like our bodies know what's best for us, in a way more subtle, and profound way that what out intellect or minds tell us. Hence, while I appreciete your solutions are well meant, the most appropriate solution, I feel, is to do nothing, and just listen to my own body.

I don't know if I'm bitter or not! It's like I say, I only feel bitter when I dwell on the situation. Most of the time, I'm quite serene and at peace, and have love in my heart.

Jamie.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by missing

We'd both rather satisfy a need for female companionship in an honest, open way. And society gives us no help in this manner.

Well, I would argue that there is plenty of opportunity out there to meet great women. I mean, seriously, women are everywhere. I think what you are talking about is actually a situation where it's a gentle progression that makes it easy for you to open up to somebody? Whilst other people are making fun of each other, you want to be taking things really gently and easily- having polite, honest conversation? I totally get that by the way.

Thing is that's like wanting to use training wheels on a bike. My theory is that for most people those training wheels were on between the age of around 12 and 15. At that age everybody is trying on new ways of being and romance generally occurs almost by polite agreement! I call it the time before banter.

However by the age of 16-18 most people have matured to the point where they are confident enough to "banter." Anybody who lacks the confidence and abundance mindset to see the amusement in playfully insulting one another is to be sympathised with at best, obused at worst. Of course I'm generalising wildly but bear with me because I'm just trying to get my point across as clearly as possible.

Way I see it if you missed the boat between age 12-15 when everyone was learning their adult social skills, well you're gonna have to find a way to undo all the horrible negative thought processes that have become habits during your period of estrangement. That's difficult of course. Very difficult. Much easier is putting in new confident thought processes, but that's still very difficult because you have to do it without those training wheels that allow you to find your feet to begin with. It comes down to really learning to put your personality on the line- be vulnerable! Fastest way to obtain the confidence to be vulnerable is to do something abhorently embarrassing.

[Jamie]

But Plato, while you're solution and suggestion may work for some people, it's not a panacea, cure-all, for all people. I just want to add, that I think it's important for people to find their own road, their own way of dealing with things.

I don't agree with your following statement:

Anybody who lacks the confidence and abundance mindset to see the amusement in playfully insulting one another is to be sympathised with at best, obused at worst.

If someone is lacking in some social skill, and they're not intentionally setting out to harm other people; no way do they desrve to be abused.