Dating, Sex, Marriage, and Beyond - Conflicted, Deluded, Naïve, Scarred, Insecure

[AlohaFromHawaii]

I just want to warn everyone that this post is VERY LONG – probably the longest one that I’ve ever written in my entire life. So long, in fact, that I had to separate it into two separate posts. So, I’ll go ahead and thank you in advance if you read the whole thing – for those that do, see you at the end.


Okay, so I sort of stumbled upon this forum not long ago and I’ve been lurking ever since. It seems like a good place to look to for advice from intelligent people with life experience about some of life’s most common obstacles and problems. So, I thought I’d toss in my deepest personal hang-up – one that’s been bothering me for well over a year now – with the hope of gaining some perspective and resolving my issue, as well as sharing it with others who might be in a similar situation as myself.

The topic of the thread basically prefaces what I’m hung-up about. Yes, the topic sounds a little abstract and cryptic, which is why I’ll have to elaborate…
Let me get the most pertinent facts out in the open first: I am 26-year-old male, and I am a virgin. I have never had a girlfriend. I have “hooked-up” (even using the word conservatively) with less than five girls in my life.

Now that that’s out of the way, I’ll rewind back to the adolescent years. I tend to be a timid, quiet guy, not exactly a social butterfly. This is probably the result of many factors: culture and upbringing, for sure, and perhaps hereditary as well.

I had the typical innocent crushes on girls even in elementary school that most boys have, yet I was usually too shy to act on those “feelings.” It’s no matter, many boys at that age were afraid to talk to girls.

Middle school: One crush. I looked up her phone number in the phone book and worked up the courage to talk to her. The relationship was platonic at best, since she had a boyfriend. Yet, she and I enjoyed the conversation. (What “conversation” meant at that age anyway.) Nothing happened beyond that.

High school: Still shy, interested in a few girls but never worked up the courage to connect. High school junior year: I spotted a really attractive freshman on the first day of school. I worked up the courage to ask her for her phone number. We chatted a few times, but I was so nervous that I couldn’t let things happen. In retrospect she seemed perfect – kind, intelligent, ethical, considerate. To this day, I only wonder what could have been, and I sometimes wonder where she is today. High school senior year: a girl, moderately attractive, expressed outward interest in me. I was elated, because that was a first. We went out on the weekends together for about a month or two. Then one night at a party, we had both been drinking, and ended up getting a little frisky. A little too tipsy, I got a little too frisky and a little too persistent. (In retrospect, nothing serious at my current age given today’s rather promiscuous standards.) And, we ended up just passing out. The next morning was a little awkward, and I acted like nothing happened. A week later, an awkward conversation followed, and she basically cut things off. I was totally shattered – my first real potential love interest, gone, just like that. I guess it was just one of those learning experiences that all of us go through at some point, where our hormones and our better judgment conflict, and the former get the better of the later. A lesson well learned.

College: During my freshman year, I met a girl. We had chemistry. Everything clicked. It started off platonic – we met through mutual friends. This was no “love-at-first-sight” encounter. We just got along well among the group, and eventually, we ended up hanging out together by ourselves and we had fun together. It was totally natural. Seamless. Then one night during a party, we got a little tipsy (of course), and hooked up – basically everything except sex. The next morning we both knew that at this point it was more than just platonic. We had crossed that line and there was no going back. But, we never talked about it. We just kept hanging out together more and more, sharing and disclosing more and more of ourselves. We acted like best buddies – laughing, joking, goofing around - except there was physical attraction as well. So of course, we hooked up again a few more times. A few months later, though, she met a guy. And it was at that point that she was able to conveniently chalk up our relationship to “just being friends.” While the relationship was platonic-romantic, she (at least outwardly) emphasized the platonic, while in my head, it was more romantic. Though, I suspect that knowing her as well as I did, she simply had too much pride to admit that she had the same feelings for me. In any case, I got jealous, and the expected insecurity followed. I became controlling (in the passive sense), expressed negativity towards many things about her that didn’t involve me. I was also whipped, too – I’d do anything to her. Keep in mind though, that she wasn’t a totally innocent party. She knew she could get away with certain things with me – for example, I’d pick her up from work, do her little favors, only to have her ditch me for her separate group of friends during the entire weekend. Eventually, I was so fed up that I tried as hard as I could to stop talking to her. The funny thing is that that’s when I realized that she rarely initiated contact anymore anyway. So once I stopped trying, we only rarely spoke anymore.

The summer after that incident, I studied abroad, and I (almost) forgot all about her. But when sophomore year started, I was still angry. Just livid by the fact that we had been such best friends and that after investing so much of my time in a friendship/relationship, she could so casually brush it aside and still be happy. I know it was a mistake to “put all my eggs in one basket” and derive my happiness from one person. In retrospect, I was a fool. Yet, while the lesson was well learned, and I acknowledge the mistake I made and forgive myself for it, the pain (or the effects thereof) still linger. I’d go to bed at night when my head was totally clear and unoccupied by the business of the day, only to find that that was the perfect time for the anger to creep in again, and steal from me hours of sleep and the next day’s feeling of restfulness. My grades suffered. And, it was at that point that I decided I couldn’t date. I couldn’t date until I could live a balanced life, work on myself to become a better person – better enough that I could sustain the emotional ups and downs of dating, without it bleeding into every other sphere of my life. I promised myself I wouldn’t put myself out there again, until I straightened myself out. And, that was a promise I kept for the rest of college.

Grad school: There was one girl. She was gorgeous. But, because I had numbed myself since college, it didn’t even occur to me to talk to her. It just didn’t register. And, after extracting any desire to take interest in girls, my confidence had taken a corresponding dive, so I assumed she wasn’t interested in me anyway. When she was around me, I’d get nervous. When she talked to me, I’d get even more nervous, quiet. Then I’d heard through a mutual acquaintance that she’d been complaining that she thought I was attractive, but that I wouldn’t talk to her. So I happened to run into her one night. She was with a friend, and they’d both been drinking. For once, I was friendly with her, and she invited me back to her apartment to have a drink with the two of them. I was trying to hold down the nervousness, and figured I’d drink a little faster to sooth the nerves. Instead, all it did was loosen my inhibitions and I acted a little belligerent. Nothing, outrageous, but I think she sensed my insecurities, and I retreated, embarrassed. It was awkward after that. We’d cross paths and she’d avert her eyes, which made it even worse for me to deal with – I had to ask myself, did I act so badly that she wouldn’t even talk to me? Because I lacked self-esteem at the time, I gave her the benefit of the doubt instead of really questioning whether I had done anything wrong. I burdened myself with guilt. [Cont'd]

[AlohaFromHawaii]

It was at that point, that I had this feeling of emptiness. This wasn’t just about abstaining from dating anymore. I realized I had deeper issues to deal with; security, esteem, confidence, and maturity issues. The concept of “personal growth” finally dawned on me, and I took it into my own hands to improve myself as a person on a profound level, constantly trying to tweak myself little by little. Yet, after we graduated, the guilt didn’t go away. I felt that I had unresolved issues with this last girl. So, I emailed her and apologized to her for the way I had acted a year earlier. She claimed it was not a big deal. (I didn’t believe her.) But in any case, we exchanged a few more round of emails and it turned out that we had both recently dealt with similar social crises with close friends, and we sort of bonded over our similar situations. As it turned out, she was going to be in town the coming weekend. I asked her if she perhaps wanted to grab coffee together while she was in town. She said she’d give me a call so we could meet up. Friday rolled around, and I had this sense of impending doom – that she was not going to call me. I text messaged her. Nothing. The anxiety hit me then, and it tired me out, physically and emotionally, by the end of the weekend. Then, the anger and rejection hit me too. I’d been duped, or I was the victim of a flaky girl. Which brings me to my next point: While this girl was really gorgeous, she didn’t have much substance on the inside – integrity, honesty, and forthrightness, were not exactly her strong suits. The problem though, is that while I realize this now, and understand that objectively speaking, she isn’t the right girl for me, the emotional longing that I developed when I was naïve has not gone away. In fact, if she were to call me and ask me out today, I can’t say that I’d have the backbone to turn her down.

There was another girl I met in grad school though. Not gorgeous, but cute. She was very unassuming and approachable, and friendly to everyone. Yet, I was so scarred at that point that I had trouble even talking to her. Finally one of my friends convinced me I had to talk to her or that I’d regret it. And so we talked, and was she ever so easy to talk to. After the fact, I had no idea what I had to be afraid of. Unfortunately, she revealed that she had a boyfriend. But in my mind, this girl set a precedent. There was something about this girl that struck me in a way that I had not felt since my junior year in high school when I met that high school freshman. I sensed benevolence from her. And I felt adoration for her, not lust. After a brief run-in in an elevator, I’d feel a deep tingling sensation deep in my chest. And to be blunt, yet vulgar, she had me by the heart, and not by the balls. I could be myself around this girl. This girl was accomplished, too. I admired her, she inspired me, and she had a sensitivity for others that is neither learned nor taught.
So that’s where things stand now. Except there’s one more thing: The girl from college, the platonic-romantic one, the “best buddies” one, the one that I literally lost sleep over. We kept in very casual contact. She took a walk down the aisle last week and got married. She invited me to the wedding, but due in part to occupational obligations and part to my refusing to go out of my way for her after everything she put me though, I didn’t attend. I did, however, send her a wedding gift. Today, I found out that my credit card had been credited, because the gift had been returned - a slap in the face to say the least. I can only wonder if I, yet again, did something to upset her. All the insecurity, the jealousy, the anger, that I thought I had gutted from my head and toss away forever – all of it came back at the snap of a finger. There is something to be said about certain people who bring out the best in you. This girl brings out the worst in me. She either causes me to feel insecure, and emotionally immature, or, because of our history, she has a way of bringing out those aspects in myself that I thought I had taken care of. And this is what has prompted me to finally lay everything out so that others can help me to resolve my issues.

Occasionally, my mother will ask me if I’ve “met any nice girls.” She’s talking about marriage. Little does she know how much of a hang-up all of this is for me. And, it doesn’t help that when she says that, it makes me realize just how far I have to go and how long I am from even finding “the one.” I feel like I have the dating IQ of a 14-year-old, unversed in the unspoken rules and obligations of dating that are only learned through years of experience. What also doesn’t help is that I tend to be romantic about marriage; not hopelessly so, but in the sense that I’m not willing to settle for anything less than true love. I have this idea that the girl that “set the precedent” for me – the one that “had my by the heart and not by the balls” – could have been one of those “ones.” And it comforts me to know that at least I know what kind of girl I’ll put it all out there for. But then I doubt myself, because I have so little experience; that I feel like she was only one of those “ones” because I never dated her and then broke-up with her to realize how little I knew in the first place. Then, there’s my sexual inexperience, and the stigma and resulting insecurity attached to guys being virgins – that maybe even if I meet a girl that I like, she’ll kick me to the curb because I don’t know what I’m doing in the bedroom. On top of that, there’s my unwillingness to put myself out there emotionally again. I feel like I’m finally coming into my own, figuring myself out, because there isn’t some girl in my life that’s stealing my time and energy, occupying my thoughts. I’m on a roll, and I don’t want it to all come crashing down like it has three times before. But a guy is a guy, and when a guy isn’t getting action from girls, it leads to suppression. Yet, I feel I often have it under control. I’ll catch myself looking at an attractive girl, and tell myself, no, no, no, I won’t let her own my attention, own my thoughts, take my time from me. Usually, it works, and I’m happy, because it feels liberating, knowing that a girl can’t control me. There’s something to be said for guys who take the “I don’t care attitude” so they can try to attract girls. In my case, however, I’m starting to really not care. I’ve been condition to associate relationships with pain, and apathy becoming the natural course to take. But desire is biological (we wouldn’t exist as human race without it), and if it weren’t for fear of accidental pregnancy, STDs, and social stigma, I not be able to fight my sexual repression anymore and completely lose it to a series of one-night-stands. Ultimately, on the one hand, part of me wants to wait until I meet a girl that is perfect (not objectively, but subjectively) for me, and just marry her, so I don’t have to deal with the emotional ups and downs of dating anymore. On the other hand, who knows if that will ever happen. And lingering in the background are my unsatisfied hormones, building pressure like a high-capacity pressure cooker. But there’s one more twist – I’m a really good-looking guy. And, I’m not simply trying to stroke my ego. I know this because of the way girls look at me and act around me if they don’t know me. And this complicates things, because I feel like they’re all sharks looking to take a bite. Most guys would enjoy this, but I tend to become guarded when a girl takes interest in me. In fact, my explanation for this is that the three girls that brought drama into my life where the ones who initially took interest in me, followed by me caving to their interests. And so when people meet me for the first time, they have this idea that I’m a player, that I get all kinds of girls, when that’s simply not the case at all. So, I tend to play things off quite passively, because I wouldn’t dare let anyone know that I’m a virgin.

So, yes – I have some major issues, this much is clear. This is why I have issues with dating, sex, marriage, and whatever is beyond that that I simply don’t have the capacity to understand right now. And this is why I’m conflicted, deluded, naïve, scarred, insecure, unsure – vicious self-reinforcing cycles replaying, ad infinitum. And so if you’ve read this far, I personally commend you, because I cannot say I would have had the patience to do the same. And I simply hope that if you have read this far, it’s because you can impart some words of advice.

[Matthew Shea]

Holy Moses! I'll have to leave this one to the speed readers.

Best of luck to you, though.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Aloha, I did read your entire story. I can sympathize in a round about way. Although I am female, I was a virgin until 25. I never dated. I generally felt that I was just not the kind of girl guys liked...except I've always had plenty of guy friends who loved to hang out with me because I was more laid back/less bitchy than the girls they were dating and was just as happy at a super bowl party or camping out as shopping or going for a nice dinner (maybe moreso).

I will try to think of some more in-depth advice considering you took the time to write out the story of your life, but on first look: You are thinking too much. I know how it is. You are getting into 'analysis paralysis' (as Steve calls it). If I were to give you one piece of advice that's helped me the most, it would be just live. Go out with friends, be friendly, show genuine interest in people. I know there are lots of girls out there who would be more than happy to find a guy like you, you only need to stop beating yourself up about this.

I know it's different for guys when it comes to not having sex, but you will probably find, as I did, that it's fun learning how it works. And your partner (who I am confident you will find) will be more than happy to help you figure it all out because the practice is so fun.

Best wishes. I will write some more if I come up with anything.

[AnnaC]

Wow, that was a long post. My answer is also quite long

Ok, Can i first of all say that there is no need to be hung up over being a virgin. From a girl's point of view (and I am a girl) It's kind of nice (and special) to share someone's first time. I recently dated a guy who was a virgin. He lied to me about it and then I later found out (don't do that!) Anyone who is bothered by the fact that you're a virgin really isn't worth dating anyway.

Something else that might be useful to know is that you aren't the only one who has been scarred by your interactions with women! I have had two serious boyfriends who were both to some extent screwed up because of the way they had reacted to previous experiences with women who they felt had treated them badly/messed them around. One of them in particular felt like he had lost some dignity in a way. That affected our relationship in a negative way.

You don't sound as if you're naive or deluded. You are aware of your problem and what has caused it. Have you thought about going to see a counsellor/therapist? If you haven't, I'd say that's definitely something to consider at this point. If not, you could at least try talking to someone close to you?

In my view, it's not a bad idea to avoid getting into a relationship for the time being and just figure out your thoughts. If you get into a relationship now, if you meet someone who's not so nice, it could just end up reinforcing your negative state of mind and if you meet someone kind, you could end up using them as a therapist! Someone told me that there are two types of couples - ones who share all their joys and one who share all their woes. (I guess realistically many are in between), but you want to have enough good stuff to bring to the relationship as your partner. Also, you say at least once that you are scared of girls 'stealing' your attention and occupying your thoughts. When you meet someone you like, I don't think it will be like that. It shouldn't be a struggle for control or power. You'll want her to occupy your thoughts because she stimulates you and you'll want her to steal your attention because you're stealing hers as well. The dating process shouldn’t be an emotional roller coaster. Perhaps it is for you because you’ve had bad experiences and because you take things to heart. Try not to take stuff like that girl returning your present to heart. It seems like you’ve acted honourably with her. If you meet somone you like who doesn't seem interested or who doesn't treat you well, just retreat and leave it alone. There is no reason to take it to heart or to let it hurt you. Although it can take time and experience to develop a thick skin if you're sensitive.

When you are ready for a relationship, I can assure you that there will be more than a few girls out there who could be 'the one'. Since I have been dating, I have noticed that each time I date someone, I get closer and closer to the kind of person I want to end up with. Like a process of elimination. And it always amazes me the wonderful people who are out there, who are wonderful, but not necessarily for me. I think it’s right to look for your ideal of true love.

So, a summary of what I think:

keep away from women who bring out the worst in you and only hang around with women who treat you nicely (don’t compromise on this otherwise you’ll end up dating people who just aren’t that good for you),

don’t take things to heart (I know this is difficult when you’re sensitive!)

and spend some time talking about your issues with someone

remember that it’s more than OK to be a virgin (especially in today’s world) and try to relax!!

I’m sure this issue won’t be as bad in the future as it seems right now. The more pointless worrying you do over it, the bigger it will seem to you and it won’t help you. Working on yourself and your issues in a constructive way (e.g. counselling) might help you, creating a good life for yourself in other areas (social, professional, hobbies, etc) will help also I reckon.

Anna

[Mayo]

Personally i still feel virgin, well it's been almost 4 years of self-inflicted abstinence.. i had first experience at 16 and again series from 18 to 23 but that does not change a bit of how i feel... i am also introvert, shy and a darn nerd...

I could only wish i was virgin until today because i'm still fuzzed out and previous "relationships" only made me even more insecure. The only way you will feel at ease with you, your feelings and your sexual urge will be when you will be at ease with your self, with accepting who you really are...

If you feel awkward with your self then the person who you want to be with you will also feel awkward being with you... If you don't know what to feel then other person will also not know what to feel towards you. The most important thing is to respect other ones feelings and you will be respected too.

[Nyx]

Hi,

Date me lol. Just joking.

But seriously, try your hardest to forget about the past and give yourself a fresh new start. People are not after you, don't take things too personally

Cheers and I wish you all the best of luck in your future endeavors.

*hugs*
Nyx

[Erock]

I see a lot of posts similar to yours, and invariably I respond to all the ones I see. One insight I may be able to offer you is that, because you typed up your entire history with girls-instead of just posting one of those "how do I get chicks threads-you obviously are very attached to your past. You need to mentally let go of it. I'm not sure how to do that, but doing things like typing the entire thing up probably aren't helping.

Another insight that may help you break through this is that long term success with women (not this short term PUA crap-which I'm sure you've read about) is a reflection of inner confidence and self assuredness. This answer will probably piss you off, and I understand that, because these things are elusive and the terms get thrown around a lot, but it's the truth. Very few guys really have this stuff down-far less then you think-and the ones that do usually gain it from experience. You're going to need experience, but you can do some inner work that can really make a difference.

One more thing, before I give you a list of things to do. Although you might have become a misogynist by now, women really are noble creatures. They will fall all over a man of high character. Nice guys are the worst, because they are dishonest. It is so obvious from their behavior that they absolutely adore a girl, yet they won't come out and say it or act on it. Jerks are a step above that, because even though they still hide their desires, they don't make it obvious that they like her through their behavior, so she thinks they are congruent. Confident men who express their desires honestly will get lots of girls no doubt, but a man who combines that confidence with high character and a strong purpose in life will be irresistible.

So how to do this? Well I'm not perfect yet either, but here is what I would suggest.

Inner work:
-find your purpose in life by whatever means you like
-sit down and discover exactly what you want to acheive by the time you die.
-Break this down into shorter goals, really get your life together, be on the path to fulfilling your purpose and dreams.
-Look at steve's list of values. Pick out the ones that resonate with you, along with the ones that you know will be neccessary in acheiving your dreams/purpose.
-think about those values and what life would be like if you lived 100% congruently with those.
-Do daily work on changing limiting beliefs. Affirmations, visualization, NLP, hypnosis, whatever. What has worked for me, being a more logical person, is a book called Mind Lines. Check it out if you got time.
-I'd recommend the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. This really helps one go from a greater purpose/vision to practical daily implementation.

Outer work:
-get 2 or 3 male mentors immediately.
-get a large circle of female friends. Watch what happens when you start to act confidently, start to lead them, start to see your inner work kick in, start to be busy and have an exciting life, start to exhibit high character and be an embodyment of those values you listed. They will get attracted to you.
-get a large circle of male friends. Ones who will invite you to parties, get you out of the house, introduce you to girls, exc.
-live an exciting life. Do the external things needed to accomplish your purpose/dreams. Learn how to have fun.
-once you start having some success, teach other men (what I'm doing right now). Mentor others. It will help reinforce what you know logically is right, but still don't have a 100% matching belief system yet.

And if you do all of this, and you still don't have girls....Who cares? You have a purpose in life, you're living your dreams, you have a huge group of male and female friends, and you have an exciting life.

Good luck to ya
Erock

[Jayne]

I think you have already received some very sound advice here. I was a 26 year old virgin when I met my husband. My story was much like yours - one relationship in high school and 2 or 3 after that. But most of my encounters did not last past one night - being female and not wanting to have sex when you are in your ealy 20's doesn't lead to many relationships. I was okay with that. There were men I totally adored - but if they couldn't understand my need to have a relationship before having sex, then they weren't for me.

I was also the tomboy - red hair, freckles, glasses - the nerd who was very successful in her career (and therefore intimidating) but not at all the Barbie type. I grew up with brothers so I felt comfortable around guys - and most of my friends at the time were guys - but none of them interested in me because I wouldn't sleep with them.

When I met my husband I had no intentions of having a romantic relationship - just thought we'd be friends - and we were. Our relationship started out as a very deep friendship. It still is more of a friendship than anything today. We were together for a month before we really did anything physical - and it was finally me who initiated.

My whole point here - I really believe friendship is more important than chemistry. It's the friendship that has gotten us through the tough times, not the sex. The chemistry comes and goes - but if you have a solid friendship, and a spiritual connection - the relationship has staying power.

So follow Erock's guidance. Be friends with lots of girls. Focus on the friendships first - and one of these days you'll be surprised when one of those friendships turns into more than you ever expected. More than anything, be yourself. If you stay true to yourself, then when you do find your true love, she will be in love with the real you, not somebody you made up. I feel that if you start making friends and just focus on being friends it will take away the enormous pressure you are putting on yourself, and you'll find that your confidence grows and it becomes easier.

They all say about careers that you should do what you love and the money will follow. Same goes with relationships - do what you love, be who you are - and it will happen for you.

I wish you the best!
Jayne

[XeutonMojukai]

I am 19, so yeah I'm not as wizened as the rest of these folks, but my story has some aspects you should be happy to hear. A little schaudenfreude (sp?) never hurt anyone (except me in this case, but whatever )

I'm not a virgin, and I've had relationships.

You're lucky.

My first sexual experience was the most painful sensory experience I can remember, and I unfortunately can remember it vividly.

My second sexual experience (and last as of the moment) was no better.

I've never actually finished, as you can imagine, so I prefer to continue to consider myself essentially a virgin.

My relationships are not the shining examples that people who know me usually expect.

One of my liaisons turned out to have killed her parents in cold blood four years prior.

Another of them had been manipulated into losing everything by a manipulative man, and as a result was afraid of me.

I'm only 19, and my peers are simply not very likely to be at my level of thought. It's depressing, since I still have the sex drive of a young man, despite the pain and suffering I've endured every time I've tried to satisfy it.

So basically, just think of yourself as fortunate, for having avoided the potentially negative relationships that often befall people who are just opening up their higher selves.

~ David

[medaille]

I think Erock gave you some pretty good advice.

There are two areas of focus. Constantly improve yourself so that you'll have more self confidence and you'll be more attractive to women. I'd start with going to the gym and getting some good exercise in. This will also help drain some of the negative energy your dealing with.

Secondly, you need to consciously work on being better with women. I think there's a lot that can be learned from the PUA community if it's used in the right frame of mind. A lot of their techniques can be used to help get a feel for a situation until you can do it more naturally.

With regards to not letting an attractive woman control your thoughts. I think that's a very poor mindset. You shouldn't be repressing your your urges. You should be removing your attachment to the outcome. You should be talking to every woman you are attracted to, but not worried if it leads anywhere.

Also, don't just go after the really hot women. Practice on all women. Just dedicate a day or week or however long it takes to talking to random women in public until it doesn't bother you anymore. You're nervous because you don't do it often enough so you don't have the experience and practice you need to be confident with it. Once you get passed that stage start asking women on dates if you are even moderately interested in them. Just think about them as if you were trying to acquire new and interesting friends and if they really blow you away then you'll let it go further because she earned it.

Good Luck.

[somaziro]

I agree with the above poster in the 'dont practice on hot women'

What you really need is just to be able to act like 'yourself' around anyone, I think that hanging out and/or going out on casual dates with just regular women will get you more comfortable being around women in general and will allow you to be yourself and natural when you are around someone you are physically attracted to.

[Christian223]

Oh i cant avoid to reply, i feel so identified, and i want to help, its not like i have overcome all my problems, but hopewfully you can learn something from my unique perspective.

Since i was born up to until i was 12 years old i was very extroverted and funny with everyone, i was just a bit shy, but somehow i got to be really funny and energetic, i felt that i was the most incredible and awesome thing that ever walked on the earth, but suddenly the emotional abuse that my parents did to me started to make an effect on my personality, i changed from that to beign extremely introverted and anti-social so fast that i didnt even noticed until someone asked me why i didnt want to talk as all the other boys... this continues until now, although im working on fixing it.

From that period of my life i can get a few interesting things:

First: Confidence, i really felt that i was the greatest and most fun thing that ever walked the earth, this means that the way you look at yourself really has an effect on the things you do and say, no the other way around...

Second: Beign creative is extremelly important, you must allways be on guard to find things that are common to everybody, so that people understand you and identify with what you say. You must also be creative to be able to surprise people in a good sense, think about giving gifts to people, but this gifts come from your personality...

Third: Love, if you start looking at the best of people and forgiving the worst of them youll be able to connect with them, youll be able to talk to them easier, youll be able to trully want to make them feel good, youll also will want to confort them in a personal way.

Fourth: walk to your own song (not really sure if its the correct expresion), i mean that you must allways have a mental filter with wich you pass all things that come from outside of you, wich also means that you only listen to yourself, wich means that you stand for your own opinions, this doesnt mean that you dont listen, it just means that you really have your own personality and that you dont want to borrow other peoples personality, this is important for confidence. This doesnt mean you need to be psycotic, but negotiate between you and your surrounding, dont surrender, negotiate, filter, judge, decide what you like and what not, and simply do not accept things you dont like.

Fifth: Be brave, take fear as an injection of energy, not as a bad and paralizing thing, fear is actually a good thing, you just need to not let it control you, but use it as a tool, if you feel fear dont start thinking about it because you may be increasing fear until its un-controlable...

(Im not like this right now, but when i look back this is what i remember from those days).

I hope that you get comforted by what im about to say, youll see that there are worse people than you

I havent dated a single girl in my life, and im 24!!!!

There, see?

Now, am i ashamed?, of course not!, i may get a little unconfortable to gather attention but, you know, i trully allways did what i really wanted to do, when i was in higschool i didnt appreciate beign with people at all, i prefered to live in my own inner world, the funny thing is that, just like you, i attract girls, and when some girl approached me i knew exactly what to do to keep them away from me, be completelly boring and act awkward and like a wussy, i knew they where trying to engage me, tease me, they tested me, they wanted my attention, i though at that time that they where trying to control me, maybe because of the way my parents raised me, so, since i was so sensitive about beign controlled i made sure to keep them away from me, and you know what?, im not really that good looking, i think that this kind of attitude is what kept girl attracted to me, i mean, beign able to stand all by myself not rellying on others, beign a lone wolf, hard to get, it all sums up to beign someone comfortable with yourself, someone masculine, someone who leads himself, completelly oposite to someone who puts girls in a pedestal, oposed to someone who looks for approval, comprehension, or undersanding, i dont need understanding, i walk to my own song.

I dont want to give the idea that beign antisocial is good, it isnt!, even when i thought that at that time i was comfortable, now im not!, now i want to start having a social life, i think its because im maturing...

Anyway, on your case, i think that you put too much value on women, as if women where the source of your happyness, and its not like that, a women should have the luck to be with you, not the oposite, you need to be the leader of your own life. Put value on yourself.

Some women seduce men to use them, you know that, so be strong and own your life, you should be the one to control your own life, dont give it to a woman who doesnt care about it, maybe you think that giving your life to a woman is something romantic?, thats un-healthy, so stop doing it, if you dont you are doomed.

Im not an expert, but really, dont you think that beign submissive is a good thing?, should you be the owner of your own life?.

My case is that my mind was so hurt that i completelly shut down my social muscle, this resulted in me not beign interested in people and developing a really weak "social sense" and nervousness for social situations, this is not good, the good thing is really owning your life, if you do, you wont be looking for girlfriends for pity (dont put un-real values on women, put it on yourself), but instead you would be looking to share your life with a girl, i think this is much better.

Develop your personality, fix yourself little by little, learn about women, try to understand them, how they think, what they do, know your own sexuality by studying sexology, pc muscles, sexuality in both women and men, right know i feel you arent very aware of it (there is also so much culture pressure to get laid, its over rated), you just want to "put it", youll discover things that will probably change your mind about sex and women, youll have more control of your impulses and youll be more mature.

This links are awesome:
Fast Seduction 101: Art of Pick-up and Seduction you dont need to be a pick up artist, i try to take what they say with real care because they kind of live lives that are kind of away from reality , but still you can learn lots about the oposite sex, youll comprehend them better.

How to have more social success | Free practical advice on social skills, getting along with people, and getting your act together This is really awesome too, it blowed my mind, its like a reflection of myself...

Ok i really hope this helped, and remember, do it, do overcome it, work towards your goals, be brave, good luck.

[Michael Chui]

I have two responses:

The first is an echo of something someone said earlier, but my second read-through of the thread missed it, so, ehm, yes:

Forget.

You're over-analyzing your past and making it harder for you to move on. Stop remembering. I recently read Phillip Zimbardo talking about the need to balance the past, present, and future perspectives. With regards to relationships, you have an overemphasized focus on the past; someone with a balanced perspective wouldn't be able to remember as much as you have. In the future, there is possibility. The immediate opportunities presented by attractive girls who you could call up or say hello to tomorrow. In the future, there are dreams, of marriage, of sex, of cross-country adventures for the hell of it.

Let it go. Move on. See what's in front of you. Dream.

The second is another general remark:

Don't assume.

There is a dating etiquette. It doesn't apply to you. No one cares about it. If you ever hear any advice, ignore it. Do what seems right based on the situation. If you do something that no one else does, and she likes it, you score points. Maybe you'll level up, too.

She's not interested in you. She's also interested in you. Why? Who the hell knows? That's beside the point. Are you interested in her? Okay, then go sell yourself to her. Give her reasons to be interested. If she's still not interested, then let it go. Forget about it; you have finite time and finite energy, spend it on a better prospect.

You're probably right about your problems and how messed up you are. Or you're not. Can you tell? No. So act as if you don't have any problems. You're fine, you'll do fine, continue.

That's worth repeating as a conclusion.

You're fine. You'll do fine. Continue. As I've said many times before, everything works out in the end. If it hasn't worked out, then it's not the end. You decide what the end is. You decide what it means for things to work out. You decide if it's over, or if it's worth pursuing. And when you decide, you're right, because it's your call.

[ellie]

Hi there AlohaFromHawaii,

I totally can understand where you are coming from. Although I didn't read your whole post because I have a short attention span

This is a timely post for me and I was umming and areing if I should post, but well why the heck not, I need to get out of my own comfort zone. I think it's time for me to start being honest and deal with this issue as well.

I so can totally sympathise with where you are. I too am a virgin (27) (god this feels like I'm in a AA meeting) and well it's getting pretty embarrassing really. I don't know exactly why I have got to this point. I keep on thinking there must be something totally wrong with me, or something that happened to me that I don't remember to be in this position. For me I think it's a number of unfortunate circumstances in my life that has made me less trusting of people and men in general.

I grew up in a strict religion that drummed in the belief that sex before marriage was wrong. Fortunately, I grew some balls (ok not balls ) and separated myself from this religion, but by then I was already tainted. It also probably didn't help that I was a sensitive only child and could pick-up that my father didn't really love my mother and I also had my mother drumming it in my ears from an early age that "make sure you find someone that loves you more than you love them".

When I was growing I had lots of guys like me, but I just freaked out all the time. So instead of understanding, facing my fears I just continually run away and continue to do so, to this day. Now all I wish is I could find someone that I could just say "look this is how it is, help me get over this fear". I'm really don't want to end up like a 40 year old virgin or 30 year old one for that matter Ah well at least I can still have a bit of a sense of humour on such a touchy subject for me.


This whole situation also probably had to do with not believing in myself and not believing that someone could actually really love me. I also have very high expectations of what I want, which in reality are probably very unrealistic but also probably a way for me to justify not getting into relationship. I'm also just down right scared and I tend to over analyse situations and I just think guys will think I’m weird – a girl that hasn’t has sex by 27 what’s wrong with her? I'm hoping though it's just liked my driving. I was so nervous when I first started to learn to drive that I nearly hyperventilated every time I drove, but then after about 6 goes (yes that’s right 6) I finally got my licence and stepped into an automatic and off I went and realised it wasn't such a big deal as I thought and now I drive everywhere

Hmm well this was not something I thought I would write about on here, and it probably wont help you too much Hawaii, but just know you’re not the only one. I know it’s much more difficult to broach or even deal with this subject when your over your mid 20’s.

[XeutonMojukai]

These other folks seem to have given advice that is much better than mine ended up being.

I figure I might as well clarify my own position:

Don't be hasty.

And how do you know if you're being hasty?

If you make the conscious decision to try to talk to someone, and you haven't had a spontaneous opportunity to do so (ie sitting next to each other at a bus stop with 20+ minutes to spare), then you're being hasty.

Hastiness is what got me into trouble.

I plan to avoid it.

I hope you're able to see just how amazing your celibacy is to someone like me.

It takes immense inner strength of a very high order to live as you do and not give up.

~ David

[Megan]

Aloha, I read your whole story and find the person behind it very likable and understandable and real. Definitely loving and lovable.

Some of us sensitive types get really wounded in relationships and then get in endless loops replaying the pain because our systems really couldn't handle another similar load on top of the unhealed past.

So the tape loops serve a good purpose, really, to keep us from getting in totally over our heads and drowning. They buy us time to sort things out.

In addition to all the good discussion above, I would add one of the things I use to work on all kinds of things including relationship issues: EFT--Emotional Freedom Technique. The manual is free and and you can subscribe to a free newsletter, as well. Here's a link:

EFT Provides Impressive Health and Emotional Freedom--New Discovery Often Works Where Nothing Else

Each one of our relationships, and each painful incident within them can be worked on extremely gently with EFT. Each relationship and incident within the relationship is an energy configuration which can be dissolved and integrated over time, sometimes within a surprisingly short time!

Here's a link to a specific example of EFT for matters of the heart--a mother who introduced it to her brokenhearted daughter and the results:

The next day, I got a call from her. She said she felt great. She woke up with more energy than she had had in a long time. She got up and went for a swim, treated herself to a nice lunch at a restaurant she had been wanting to try, and called some friends to get together with them.

She was amazed that the hurt she felt the day before had vanished. She thought she was going to feel lousy for weeks or months, but instead, she felt great the next day. She said she felt bad about the situation with her boyfriend, but it just didn’t trigger her anymore. Those deep hurt feelings were gone, and instead she was looking forward to the freedom of meeting new people in the future.

My daughter, who doesn’t always appreciate me or the things I do, literally thanked me about a dozen times during that one phone call. She even called again a second time that day just to thank me again for the EFT session and to let me know how great she felt. And this good feeling has lasted (even now 6 months later) – this is what amazes her the most. She has continued to feel good, and those hurt feelings have never resurfaced.

She was adamant that people be told about this amazing thing called EFT. She thinks of all the people who waste so much of their lives being “stuck” in heartache, and she wants them to know that they can move out of that “hurt” feeling into a feeling of hope and energy within virtually minutes of using EFT.

EFT for a Broken Heart

That would be called a "One-Minute Miracle" in EFT talk. It doesn't always happen that way, but sometimes it does!

Best wishes!

Megan

[Erki]

Originally Posted by ellie

I too am a virgin (27) (god this feels like I'm in a AA meeting) and well it's getting pretty embarrassing really.

Hello, my name is Erki and I am a virgin. Uhhhh...how to start then.... *sigh* ....


I wonder if anyone has been dumped simply because of their virginity. I don't think it's too big of a deal really. If someone dumped you because of this then I think it'd be a little silly, don't you think so too? And in what way is it embarrassing?

[ellie]

Originally Posted by Erki

Hello, my name is Erki and I am a virgin. Uhhhh...how to start then.... *sigh* ....


I wonder if anyone has been dumped simply because of their virginity. I don't think it's too big of a deal really. If someone dumped you because of this then I think it'd be a little silly, don't you think so too? And in what way is it embarrassing?

Well it is for me :P

I don't know, it's probably something that is just built up in my mind. It probably isn't a big deal or maybe it's the actual reason behind it rather, than been an actual virgin

[Michael Chui]

The chance to be someone's first is an appeal. Really, sex isn't all it's chalked up to be. You do it every now and then, you enjoy it, hopefully you're the sort who cuddles afterwards, but the bulk of the relationship is out of bed. I think that anyone who's had sex realizes this; it's just hard to see when you've never done it.

[ellie]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

The chance to be someone's first is an appeal. Really, sex isn't all it's chalked up to be. You do it every now and then, you enjoy it, hopefully you're the sort who cuddles afterwards, but the bulk of the relationship is out of bed. I think that anyone who's had sex realizes this; it's just hard to see when you've never done it.

Oh how depressing

[Erki]

I think mass media with all the lingerie shots make sex a bigger deal than it really is. Although perhaps it still is a big deal, just in a more... delicate(?) way? I don't know, obviously.

[fourthdan]

i have a lot in common with you, more than i really like declaring in public

i'm happy to say most of the advice you've recieved here is sound, and well thought of and quite wise. I'm probably going to end up repeating most of it, just because it is that important.

It used to be a huge source of worry - simply because I hung around with friends who placed a ridiculous amount of importance on sex. obviously the first step was to stop associating myself with those friends and remove the source of such negative, self-doubting emotions. like someone said here, be true to yourself.
second step was also what someone here has mentioned - find your purpose, surround yourself with positive, fun, happy guys and girls, and have a life that's awesome and cool. regardless of whether sex is great or hyped, it's just wrong to be unhappy and let the rest of the amazing possibilities you can do with your life go to waste.

I think the third point I'm about to say has been repeated, but I'm gonna put a slightly different angle to it - your past is your past - it's not a bad or a good thing - it is just what it is. stop letting it ruin your present and your future.

someone also pointed out its interesting you posted your past instead of "how can i get chicks". However my advice is that you don't consider becoming a pick-up artist - you will only alienate yourself by drawing lines with the fairer sex and making a game out of it - instead of treating them like the human beings, just like you are. That's just my opinion though. Though trying and "compensating for lost time / fun" is tempting as hell, first find out if that's being true to your self and congruent with your belief system. you might end up making your situation worse.

You Should relax - learn to filter out every negative thought as Steve said in his posts on Intention manifestation - but here, you're doing it for peace of mind and survival too. You obviously think your way through things, but sometimes you need to put the negative thought filteration process above "freedom of thought". Because this is a debate that can just go on and on and might destroy you inside. Indulge in the debate if you'd like, but with a logical, un-stressed mind that doesn't generate the mental and psychological toxins that cause you to bring down your confidence and self-image down.

ensure you're working on all 12 aspects of your life. achievements in all aspects translate into a person who is automatically attractive to girls.

helps to remember that 26 means another possibly 54 years that you have which can be filled with an amazing life, and at some point amazing sex.
don't get the sex if it comes with a destructive relationship. rubbish in, rubbish out - the rest of your life will begin to suffer.

faith, intention manifestation - do whatever it takes to stay positive and make it happen. The being positive helps in more than one way.

all the best

[Erki]

I have a very slightly off topic question...

Why does the letter "i" in word "naive" in thread title have two dots...? And what letter is that? I haven't see it before...

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Erki

I have a very slightly off topic question...

Why does the letter "i" in word "naive" in thread title have two dots...? And what letter is that? I haven't see it before...

It's a symbol called a diaresis or tréma. It means that "naive" is a two-syllable word, rather than one, as the "ai" isn't considered one sound, but two. French uses it, though I couldn't tell you where else. (I thought it was an actual letter until I looked it up. )

[theonlyjen]

I just want to say that if met a guy and i felt that we could make it work together then i would be really honored if it was the case that he was virgin, that he had chosen me to lose it with, well i would be amazed and in total awe of a man like that...and it would be an absolute honour if he thought i was the one he wanted to lose his viriginity to.


the key to a good relationship, in my opinion, is that you can be yourself with this person, you have the same values and that you can talk to them. communication is everything...good luck!

you will be fine
xx

PS i've just realised you posted this back in 2007 so..em..sorry about the lateness of the reply! hope u are doing well, good luck anyway! xx

[cacheborn]

Wow.. great suggestions guys. Did not realise it was an old thread.
There is so much here I identify with. Fear of people most of my life, being very suspicious, having no friends. Won't say I have overcame all of that 100%, but I am trying. And some of the suggestions were spot on.