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| Social & Relationships Social skills, friends, dating, sex, seduction, monogamy, polyamory, marriage, alternative relationships, soul mates, parenting, children, family life, education |
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| | #1 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4
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Hello everyone, This seems to be a community filled with smart people, so I've decided to confess my sins here and ask for advice in the process. In 1998, while on leave from the military, I ran into Kristine (an old high school crush) at a local fair. At the time we ran into each other, I hadn't seen her in about 7 years. She had changed a lot since high school. Physically she was still the most gorgeous girl in town, but she was no longer the stuck up beauty queen she had been during her teenage years. We hit it off big time. We had a lot of the same interests at that point in our lives, and for the next 10 days we spent every waking moment together -- until I had to go back to Germany. I was smitten by her to say the least. That high school crush was back and bigger than ever, and I immediately started making plans in my head to leave the military when my contract was up, move back to my hometown, and marry Kristine -- even though during those short 10 days everything between us was strictly platonic. Imagine my surprise when in December 1999, as I was making my last visit home before my actual discharge in May of 2000....I found out Kristine had just started dating my brother. I couldn't hold it against her, because our friendship never reached the sentimental stage, but I was deeply hurt because my crush for her had grown to full blown LOVE -- and now she was with my brother. At first I figured the relationship wouldn't last, because my brother had always been the womanizer and troublemaker of the family, and she seemed much too stable to be with someone like him for the long term. But in the summer of 2000 they got engaged, and in February 2001 they got married. I was back home by then, finishing college, and still making plans with Kristine to launch our own business, which we finally did in 2003, after my first nephew was born. In 2005 my second nephew was born, so their family kept growing, but so were my feelings for Kristine. I knew it was wrong, but the more time I spent with her, the more I fell in love with her....even after all those years. I finished a masters degree, was the driving force behind the launching of our business, and made it into a financial success, but I felt like I had done it all for her, not for me. The only thing that made me happy was spending time with her. One thing that has irked me through the years is that my brother has always treated her like crap. I don't think he has ever physically abused her, but the mental abuse is definitely there in the way he talks down at her and how he thinks she's nothing more than his personal maid. And a couple of years ago our mother asked me to talk to him because she claimed he was sleeping around with a teenage girl from the neighborhood, but my brother has always denied that claim, and as far as I know, Kristine has never heard about it. But for better or worse, the rules of the game changed earlier this year. Kristine and I decided to spoil ourselves and attend a business conference in Hawaii. Unlike other business trips we had taken before, my brother decided not to go this time because he had "too much work" ---- which was fine with me, because I always enjoy her company more when he's not around. When they are together they are always arguing and she's always mad, but her and I have never had a serious argument or been mad at each other for any reason. It's a night and day difference. To make a long story short, during that week-long "working vacation", Kristine and I ended up sleeping together. One night she came over to my room to watch the show Blind Date, because one of our things as friends was to make fun of those people that rely on TV shows to help them find "true love". That night I had the sliding door open, and the Hawaiian breeze had made the room a little chilly, so very innocently I invited her to crawl under the blankets with me, and we sort of started cuddling. I knew immediately that was probably a mistake, because we were both wearing shorts and I got instantly aroused, and by the way I kept rubbing my legs against hers, I don't think I hid it very well. So as human beings, next thing we knew we were all over each other, and you can imagine the rest of the story. We slept in the same bed, and had amazing sex the last three nights we were there. We roamed the beaches of Maui like newlyweds without a care in the world, knowing very well that when we got back home life would never be the same again....but we never even stopped to discuss the consequences of what we were doing. The night we flew home I took her to her house, and seeing my nephews jump all over her broke my heart, because I knew if something went wrong, they would be the real victims. I couldn't look my brother in the eye either, which made the few minutes I was at their house very uncomfortable. The way we have our business setup, Kristine works from home so she can take care of the kids, and I run the office with our small group of employees, so we didn't have the problem of awkwardness at the office after our little romp in paradise. We talked about what happened several times, and we even kissed a couple of more times, knowing we were headed down a very complicated path. But things just got even more complicated. At least for me anyway, since Kristine just told me that she's pregnant (again). The child is not mine, because we had our "affair" in January, but now I really feel like I have lost her forever, since with three kids it will be very difficult for her to leave my a**hole brother, let alone start a relationship with me afterwards. Judging by the way she told me she was pregnant, she pretty much made it very clear that we could never be together again, which of course is the right decision for the children's sake ---- but if our happiness as a couple was a long shot before, it's a nearly impossible one now. I realize that being in love and sleeping with my brother's wife makes me a horrible person in the eyes of society, but it's my reality, and at this point I can't go back and change the past. I wish I could change at least my feelings towards her, but I can't. Tonight they are at my parent's house telling everyone the big news, so I decided to skip the "celebration". Now I'm considering moving away to another state, because if after all these years I haven't been able to even have a long-term relationship because of my feelings for her, I don't think being around her is the smartest thing I can do moving forward with my life....especially after having had her like I did during the most amazing week of my life in Maui just a few months ago. Has anybody been in this situation before? (I know it's a rare one)....and how can I move on with the rest of my life now....being happy for them, while trying to somehow make myself happy also. Thank you for any advice you can provide. |
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| | #3 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NM, USA
Posts: 1,394
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You got to experience having a love relationship with your SIL. That's what you wanted, that's what you gave yourself, but still you cry about being in lack of that experience? Helllooo? It's time to move on, you said yourself, her getting pregnant again ended the future of you being together. Ok, be with that. You keep going into the future and seeing "no girl" there. How about be where you are and allow some space for a new girlfriend instead of holding on to the past with the SIL? |
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| | #4 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Croatia
Posts: 448
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| | #5 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,090
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Yes Aprontao, I agree with everyone else here. It's time to move on. Your sister-in-law has made it clear she's going to stay with her husband no matter what. She does not have you in mind for her future. Don't waste any more time or energy. |
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| | #10 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 22,520
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Aprontao may not meet the standards of your rather anacronistic sexual dogma, but he deserves to be listened to without judgement here as he works through this difficult situation. That said, Aprontao, I agree that everyone would be best served by letting them be in their commitment to each other to see what they can work out. You've already shown yourself that you're capable of big, passionate love; Kristine won't be the last woman you share that with. | |
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| | #11 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Ohio
Posts: 376
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You are here today in this situation because of the choices you made in the past especially on that day when you knew that she is getting married to your brother. You had a choice to either continue loving her or letting go and finding your own partner. According to me you chose the wrong path and that led you here. We are humans and sometimes we make mistakes. The good news is that your past has nothing to do with your future (if you want it to be that way). Its what you do today that will influence your future. You have a choice now, a decision to make. Use your past to learn your mistakes so that you make the right choice now. I get a feeling that you are so much in love that you havent made a conscious effort to analyze the whole situation. This is important because if you dont take control of the present then your past will come to haunt your future in one way or the other. Good luck! |
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| | #12 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Rafael, CA
Posts: 4,896
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She doesn't need to stay in her marriage if she doesn't want to, but you can't make that call for her. | |
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| | #13 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Detroit
Posts: 772
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I'm going to stick up for Minishark for a minute. First, Angela, he's not claiming that any one person owns any other. The phrase "your girl" or "her boyfriend" or anything similar merely implies a monogamous relationship. We all know that just because I refer to the person I married as "my wife", it doesn't mean that I've staked any claims over her. It just describes our relationship and sets a certain level of expectations. Also, Dan, the way I see it, there's no rule saying that the expression "bros before hos" is limited to friends only. The expression means that you have to keep your priorities in check. In this case, consideration for the brother, being family, should come before the OP's libido. Do you disagree? Now I do think that Minishark was much too harsh with his wording and I think the name calling was out of place, but I don't know him and I don't know his background. For all I know, that post could be gentle by the standards of what he was brought up with. Whatever the case, though, we owe it to him to look past the wording and respond to the message itself. And, for what it's worth, I essentially agree with his point: sleeping with your brother's wife is despicable. Let's call a spade a spade. The brother is a cuckold and doesn't even know it. How would any of you feel if you were him? The OP should never have put himself in that situation. What's more is that the wife has made it clear that further advances are unwanted. It's time to be an adult and let it go. There are plenty of others out there and I'm sure that many of them wouldn't put themselves in a situation where they're cheating on their husband with their brother-in-law. Regarding the issue of being judgemental, I agree that's unwarranted, but that doesn't mean we can't confront the issue. Note that I never said the OP was a bad person in any way, I merely called his action despicable. |
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| | #14 (permalink) | ||
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Rafael, CA
Posts: 4,896
| Quote:
There is only a perception of harm in this situation, rooting from Kristine breaking her marital contract, but considering that she enjoyed the experience so much I'd question the marital contract itself rather than just labeling what she did as wrong. Isn't it despicable to stay in a marriage that you don't really want to be in? Quote:
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| | #15 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 3,709
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It appears to me that people have already been hurt by this and it has the potential to hurt many more, some of whom have no choice in the matter (children particularly). | |
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| | #16 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Rafael, CA
Posts: 4,896
| Quote:
Do you believe that divorce automatically harms children? | |
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| | #17 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 3,709
| Now that it's been done, yes. But my point was that she never should have done it in the first place. She could have left the marriage before she got with the OP. No, no. It's not the divorce that I think would harm them necessarily (depending on how it was handled), but rather the realization of the actual infidelity. 'Why doesn't mommy love daddy anymore?' is one question I can see a child asking himself in this situation which could have serious repercussions for him. I would imagine the whole scenario would be very hard for a child to comprehend, very confusing. Lies and infidelity are harmful to the people who perpetrate them as well as to everyone they effect (that is my personal opinion, of course). Divorce can go smoothly, but I doubt in this case it would considering the nature of what would have precipitated it. |
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| | #18 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Detroit
Posts: 772
| If you've either been through it or seen it happen to others, I can't see how you could think it wouldn't. The best you can hope for is it minimize the impact. Seeing their parents split up, even in a bad marriage, is still traumatic for most kids. Regarding your response to my previous post, Kristine has clearly made her choice. She has chosen to stay in her marriage. There is yet to be any evidence presented that she's unhappy in that marriage. Furthermore, go ahead and tell the husband that the harm inflicted by his brother sleeping with his wife is only perceptual and see what happens. Family bonds are real. Marriages are real. Divorce is real. Children's bonds with their parents are real. It's ridiculous to say that cheating doesn't cause any real harm when the stakes are so high. Even if the husband and kids never find out, this cheating has already destroyed a certain level of trust that may very well impact the marriage when the wife, having known what she's done herself, doesn't trust her husband anymore and starts to treat him like a suspect all the time. Now I'm being hypothetical here, but can you tell me that this scenario never happens? (To give you a hint, I've seen it personally). |
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| | #19 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 3,709
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I do want to add that I feel for the OP. I can see what a painful situation this is for him. I just have a very stong personal aversion to infidelity. I think there are far better ways to go about handling any situation where cheating is one option. To me, it is never an option. | |
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| | #20 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 22,520
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And again, judging him to be a "pathetic human being" has no place in a forum like this, where we're all trying to honestly work out our stuff. It doesn't matter what his background is -- using a phrase like that was uncalled for. I totally agree with Dan -- everything that happened was consensual. Yes, there was an agreement broken between Kristine and her husband, and yes, the husband sounds like he treats her badly, and yes, Aprontao is having to suffer the consequences of being party to all that, but all three people are responsible for their relationships, and they're all trying to work it out as best as they are able. I hope that when you, Minishark, or I post about something we're ashamed of or are having difficulty doing the right thing, that we're not met with judgement and condemnation. | |
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| | #21 (permalink) | |||
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Detroit
Posts: 772
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For the record, I really do hope that Aprontao is able to come to terms with this and that all parties involved come to an amenable solution. I don't know if I advocate telling the brother, as more harm may come from that, especially for the kids, but obviously there's still some issues left for Aprontao and his SIL to work through. For my part, I hope that everyone here understands that I've never intended to judge or condemn. We have to expose the truth, though, ugly as it may be and sugarcoating things isn't going to help anyone. We have to face the reality we create for ourselves in its entirety before we can make it better. | |||
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| | #22 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 22,520
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I get what you're saying, Matthew, thanks. It's important to me that this be a safe place where people can talk through their issues without being judged or labeled, so if I seem too quick on the draw about those things, it's because I'm coming from that background. (That word "ho" -- I find it as ugly as any ethnic slur, whatever the personal connotations of the speaker are.) |
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| | #25 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 22,520
| Sorry, no can do. Words have power, and I won't let hateful words go unchallenged. If a statement includes hateful words, even if that statement could be construed as really valuable, it contains a meta-message of hatefulness. |
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| | #26 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Detroit
Posts: 772
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Yes, but you're potentially transferring responsibility for a certain negative statement to an individual who a) had no intention of coming across that way and b) may not be aware or intelligent enough to express themselves more accurately. To dismiss what someone says based on this demeans them as an individual and inhibits their growth. A faulty means of expression can be corrected and that fault doesn't change the intent of the statement. Words only have as much power as we give them. If a statement has inherent value, but is poorly expressed, we owe it to the person to at least clarify the meaning of the statement so that a relatively minor issue such as word choice doesn't get in the way of dealing with a larger issue. People aren't perfect and we're all guilty of expressing ourselves inaccurately or inappropriately at times. I'd argue that if you can't learn to forgive that, you could allow yourself to get caught up in semanitics that will prevent you from addressing the bigger issue and may cause you to miss something of great value.
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| | #27 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 22,520
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And because he has no responsibility, any hateful words he uses should be overlooked in favor of the inherent value of his statement? I didn't dismiss what the poster said, I responded to it. As it happens, I disagree strongly with his explicit message, and I object to his use of offensive language, its implication for women, and its propensity to make other posters feel judged and unsafe. What "larger issue" is there? There is nothing for me to forgive -- I stated my position (okay, I did judge his view as "anachronistic" but like you, that was his moral rule I was judging, not him as a person.) I don't believe I'm getting caught up in semantics; rather, I'm listening to what people say as well as to what they imply. If I feel that the statement or its implication is hateful, and thus inappropriate in this forum, I'll say so. I would expect everyone else to do the same if it were me being offensive (it has happened!). That's not semantics; that's communication and taking a stand. | |
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| | #28 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 22,520
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Matthew, I just realized I was feeling a little defensive when I wrote that post, and I'm sorry about that. It's hard to communicate with someone who is being defensive, and I would hate for that to get in the way of our conversation. Again, I apologize. I do wonder what your answers to my questions are, though; they weren't rhetorical. |
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| | #29 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Detroit
Posts: 772
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I'm certainly not condoning the use of hateful language. The whole Don Imus debable a couple months ago certainly underscored the effects that hateful words can have. But we as individuals are products of the society in which we were raised, so society needs to share the responsibility for the use of such language by its members. You can't pin the blame for the hateful language solely on the individual, although the individual ultimately is still responsible for his actions. What I'm basically saying, though, is that since you don't know all the influences responsible for the way Minishark expressed his opinion, it's unproductive to criticize him for coming across in a way he may not have intended. Rather, we should ask him to clarify and work on helping him fine tune his message so it doesn't come across in an insulting way. That way you're helping to truly eliminate the negativity, not creating more negativity in response to something that came across as negative itself. With regard to your specific problems with the post in question, I completely understand and agree that it could cause all those things. Like I said, though, I would advocate a helpful, loving approach to correcting the content of the post, not a tongue lashing. How we treat Minishark is reflective of how we would treat ANY poster on this forum. If we can treat him respectfully, we can treat EVERYONE respectfully and THAT will truly make people feel safe posting here, will it not? Regarding the issue of semantics, I suppose addressing a problematic post is not semantics, but it does distract from the point of the thread which, in my humble opinion, is a more immediate need. I'm not sure that it's any greater or lesser an issue, just more immediate. |
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| | #30 (permalink) | ||
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Rafael, CA
Posts: 4,896
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This whole situation with Aprontao is really all about betrayal in its almost purest form. Shakespearean even: A man having an affair with his brother's wife. Ouch. And then, so many things in this case make it even worse. It happened on the first vacation they took alone together. It was supposed to be a business trip. The affair wasn't just a mistake that happened once, but continued over the course of three days. That there had been years of hidden lust before it took place. That there are kids involved in the marriage. That it was covered up afterwards. Everyone's right when they say that it's a bad situation; its as bad as familial betrayal gets. As Minishark said, "he might try to kill you, and it probably wouldn't be undeserved." Also very Shakespearean.. But it's easy to miss that the entire perspective on this situation hinges precariously on one simple question that no one has examined. Is betrayal real? Betrayal, at its core, requires a very conditional type of love: "I love you as long as you don't do.. $this." Its the idea that someone else's actions take something away from you, even it they didn't do any direct harm to you. Scarcity based thinking. The idea of betrayal is very much in line with the other things you mention: Monogamy, for example, is also a form of conditional love. "I love you as long as you don't sleep with anyone else." Marriage is as well; too often marriage is simply a contract founded on conditional love, and divorce generally means that you broke the conditions of that love, and then its gone. You're fully right in saying that all of those things are very real in todays society. But do you have to believe that betrayal exists? Are we better off for acknowledging it? What happens when we make betrayal actionable? To answer those questions we need to decide which belief is more empowering to an individual, the belief that betrayal is real, or a belief that betrayal is only an illusion. By thinking betrayal is real you're choosing to believe that you can be betrayed simply by those who are close to you following their joys in life. You could be betrayed by a romantic interest committing adultery. Or by your partner moving to take a job in a different city, or by a friend not spending enough time with you. Or by your friends spending more time with someone else. By your roommate not cleaning the house, or by your kids watching too much TV. Anytime your partner, your family, or anyone else doesn't meet the expectations of your conditional love, you're entitled to feel betrayed, if you believe in betrayal. That's how it works. If the betrayal is bad enough, you might even want to kill someone. Or, you can believe that betrayal doesn't exist, that love is all there is. In this scenario you are fully responsible for finding your own joys in life, regardless of the actions of those closest to you. An affair isn't betrayal, simply your partner enjoying herself with someone else. Someone close to you moving for a new job isn't betrayal, but an opportunity to meet new people. You're free to love whoever you want too, when you want to, without exception. And since like attracts like you'll draw in people who love you unconditionally as well. If your love is strong enough, you might even experience pure joy. I fail to see how the logical extensions of a belief in betrayal can cause anything but harm, myself. It is fully a personal choice though, and anyone can feel that they've been wronged if they want to. Is it ridiculous to say that cheating doesn't cause any real harm when the stakes are so high? It's really up to you and how you choose to choose to react to it, isn't it. But to say that its literally the adultery itself thats causing harm somehow, I don't think thats being very honest about things. Its maintaining conditional relationships and choosing to make a belief in betrayal actionable that causes the harm, not the adultery itself. | ||
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