In Love With My Sister in Law

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Family bonds are real. Marriages are real. Divorce is real. Children's bonds with their parents are real. It's ridiculous to say that cheating doesn't cause any real harm when the stakes are so high.

You certainly make a stong argument there, and I wanted to think it through a bit before responding.

The only thing that is real is love. Everything else is a cry for help.

Thats a quote from A Course in Miracles. Pretty powerful.


This whole situation with Aprontao is really all about betrayal in its almost purest form. Shakespearean even: A man having an affair with his brother's wife. Ouch. And then, so many things in this case make it even worse. It happened on the first vacation they took alone together. It was supposed to be a business trip. The affair wasn't just a mistake that happened once, but continued over the course of three days. That there had been years of hidden lust before it took place. That there are kids involved in the marriage. That it was covered up afterwards.

Everyone's right when they say that it's a bad situation; its as bad as familial betrayal gets. As Minishark said, "he might try to kill you, and it probably wouldn't be undeserved." Also very Shakespearean..

But it's easy to miss that the entire perspective on this situation hinges precariously on one simple question that no one has examined. Is betrayal real?

Betrayal, at its core, requires a very conditional type of love: "I love you as long as you don't do.. $this." Its the idea that someone else's actions take something away from you, even it they didn't do any direct harm to you. Scarcity based thinking.

The idea of betrayal is very much in line with the other things you mention: Monogamy, for example, is also a form of conditional love. "I love you as long as you don't sleep with anyone else." Marriage is as well; too often marriage is simply a contract founded on conditional love, and divorce generally means that you broke the conditions of that love, and then its gone. You're fully right in saying that all of those things are very real in todays society.

But do you have to believe that betrayal exists? Are we better off for acknowledging it? What happens when we make betrayal actionable? To answer those questions we need to decide which belief is more empowering to an individual, the belief that betrayal is real, or a belief that betrayal is only an illusion.

By thinking betrayal is real you're choosing to believe that you can be betrayed simply by those who are close to you following their joys in life. You could be betrayed by a romantic interest committing adultery. Or by your partner moving to take a job in a different city, or by a friend not spending enough time with you. Or by your friends spending more time with someone else. By your roommate not cleaning the house, or by your kids watching too much TV. Anytime your partner, your family, or anyone else doesn't meet the expectations of your conditional love, you're entitled to feel betrayed, if you believe in betrayal. That's how it works.

If the betrayal is bad enough, you might even want to kill someone.

Or, you can believe that betrayal doesn't exist, that love is all there is. In this scenario you are fully responsible for finding your own joys in life, regardless of the actions of those closest to you. An affair isn't betrayal, simply your partner enjoying herself with someone else. Someone close to you moving for a new job isn't betrayal, but an opportunity to meet new people. You're free to love whoever you want too, when you want to, without exception. And since like attracts like you'll draw in people who love you unconditionally as well.

If your love is strong enough, you might even experience pure joy.

I fail to see how the logical extensions of a belief in betrayal can cause anything but harm, myself. It is fully a personal choice though, and anyone can feel that they've been wronged if they want to. Is it ridiculous to say that cheating doesn't cause any real harm when the stakes are so high? It's really up to you and how you choose to choose to react to it, isn't it.

But to say that its literally the adultery itself thats causing harm somehow, I don't think thats being very honest about things. Its maintaining conditional relationships and choosing to make a belief in betrayal actionable that causes the harm, not the adultery itself.

[Matthew Shea]

You've evidently thought long and hard Dan, which will require the same on my part. Stay tuned...

My first reaction, though, is that we have to define what truly constitutes betrayal. Someone might feel betrayed, but that doesn't necessarily mean they truly have been betrayed. For example, if I forget to take the trash out after being requested to do so by my wife, she might feel that I've betrayed her in ignoring her request. In fact, however, I've not ignored her, as she thinks, but merely been forgetful, possibly careless. In this case, hopefully a simple conversation would establish that my lack of ill intent removes the possibility of betrayal and relegates the problem to a simple lack of action on my part.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Perhaps it's the story we tell ourselves about what adultery means that in fact does us harm, and not the actual act. 'He doesn't love me. He loves someone else more.' and so on. However, if I am married and my husband begins and affair and completely neglects everything he's committed to me and our children, I may still love him, but I will not continue the marriage. If all of his time is spent with another woman, what is the purpose of continuing the relationship? Is it so I can prove that I love someone without condition? If I misunderstand you I do apologize. I may accept that he finds happiness with someone else, but I will not maintain a marriage in which I am basically a placeholder. I would rather be given the option to split with love than be lied to and neglected. Your post is definitely food for thought, but I still believe that people should keep the committments they've agreed to. Or if they cannot/choose not to they should give their partner the information to decide whether they want to continue the relationship or lovingly move on.

Maybe the OPs sister in law maintains the exact same relationship with her husband despite her affair with the OP. However, I would doubt it. Why should her husband live that way when he could find someone who would share the same level of committment and the same values as he? Then they could both be happy. (This is presuming a lot of things about him in order to attempt to make my point). I don't have any problem with polyamoury or open relationships when everyone involved is fully aware and accepting. When one partner believes they are in a monogomous relationship and they are in fact not, I start to have a problem.

That's the best I can describe my position on the spur of the moment. I hope I've made sense.

[Angela]

Woweee, Dan. That was very well said. I am going to take a fresh look at my relationship with Danger Man. I would strongly prefer that he didn't sleep with other women, but the thought that triggers is not love at all, it's just fear. The fear of "losing" something -- but I don't own it, so how can I lose it? Since we've promised each other we will not have sex with others, I would hope that I could talk with him about what had transpired, either between us or solely within himself, that he broke that promise. I would want to make that discussion be part of (and maybe even deepen ) our loving, generous relationship. I will be thinking about what you've said, and what it might mean for own sexual jealousy. Thank you.

Matthew, as for the trash can analogy, actually I think women DO feel hurt and betrayed when their man is merely forgetful or careless, as opposed to just being "ignored", because it's important to us to be seen and heard in our relationships. If you forget or are careless with what she has said, I think it's possible that she might make it mean what she says is not important to you. It's important to her that you, the person she loves most in the world, find what she says and wants important.

I'm not saying this has to do with your trash can, but I think that's one reason why women sleep with men other than their mate -- they want to feel seen and heard again. Maybe that's why Aprontao's love interest strayed -- she must have felt very brilliant in the light of his adoration and lust.

[september]

Skipping the lengthy (and definitely worthy of reading, well-formulated) discussion because I don't have time, Aprontao, you need to sit down with her and talk to her, instead of judging she wants things to end from connotations. Sure, it's years too late. Sure, it will upset her and perhaps cause her to get defensive. But if you love her and challenge her perception of things needing to stay the way they are by explaining to her exactly what you've explained to us, you might be able to help her leave an unhappy and unfulfilling marriage, and depending on the quality of your brother's parenting abilities, help her children as well.

It definitely IS opening a huge can of worms. No one wants to do that. But solving big, knotty problems involves fight, not flight.

Speaking of fight-or-flight, if she does get upset and emphatically let you know that things are done - you still have that other option of leaving. It's pointless not to try, especially when whether you succeed or fail when talking to her, things are out in the open - which is always better than leaving them unresolved.

Also, quickly, "bros before hos" isn't just offensive because of its use of the word "ho" (you can talk to Don Imus about that...). It's offensive because it creates this hierarchical structure of men above women, instead of equals in a partnership. My boyfriend used that excuse to my face once, and it really made me start to scrutinize the reasons for his neglectful actions toward me. I found out how sexist the bastard was, among other things, and got out of there. I mean, same with "chicks before dicks". While I thought it mildly witty upon first hearing it, it also instantiates this same hierarchy of "I'm going to be friends with girls and date boys, no mixing of sexes", along with the offensive "I value my female friends above you, because of their/your gender" statement. It's reprehensible on a number of levels, especially if, like me, the majority of your friends are of the opposite sex, and if, like me, you consider your partner your best friend also.

[Matthew Shea]

Just to clarify, my trash can story was completely fictional, it just happened to be trash day when I posted that so it was on my mind. Your point is well understood, though, Angela. My initial reaction to it is to be defensive, but it seems to offer a valuable insight into the female mind that I will be certain to mull over for a while.

In response to Dan's post, I think that in an ideal world, where people are mature enough, aware enough and intelligent enough to always consider the entire picture before acting and reacting to situations, that could work and probably work very well. Marriage, however, isn't a form of conditional love. When two people get engaged and married, love is a prerequisite, not a condition. You don't go into a marriage saying "I will love you as long as you fufill the terms of this contract." You say "I love you and want to formalize my commitment because I intend to be with you for the rest of my life." At least that's the way it should be. If your spouse then does something to tear down the love between the two of you, that's what constitutes betrayal. As long as people continue to do that, betrayal will always exist. I would also argue that this applies whether you're married or not. You could potentially be in any sort of a relationship and, if one person does something to tear down the bonds of love and trust between the two people, betrayal will exist.

Getting back around to the issue of adultery, or any form or cheating, the harm then lies in that betrayal of love and trust that should exist between the partners. In the act of clandestinely engaging in a sexual relationship with another person when an agreement, either ex- or implicit, has been made not to do so, one partner tears down those bonds of love and trust that we've agreed are very real. That betrayal can then manifest itself in a variety of ways, but it all centers around the one act of cheating. For the betrayal not to exist, the affected partner has to consent beforehand.

[Angela]

I did take your trashcan story as just a manner of speaking, Matthew. It just made me think of some of the stories of women I know who have had extramarital sex, or who have been vaguely unhappy in their relationship. It seems to me it's often a feeling of being invisible that gets them there. I'm wondering, what about that triggered a feeling of defensiveness for you? Please know that I wasn't meaning to address you personally; I was just speaking generally about something I've noticed.

I understood Dan's post to describe betrayal as a human construct -- an emotional and psychological invention -- and if my mate has sex with someone other than me, it has no inherent meaning, although I'm free to experience it as a betrayal if I choose. I'm also free to choose to experience it as an opportunity to feel my love for him, and my joy at his finding happiness where ever he may find it. Or I could choose any of an infinite variety of ways of experiencing it.

The really valuable think I take from his post is that I tend to fall into my automatic story about what is real -- when that alleged "reality" is only a story. And as long as I'm caught up in the illusion that the story is an illusion that I'm stuck with -- "that's just the way it is!" -- then I'm not free. And if I'm not free, I'm not likely to create an environment of freedom for the people in my life either.

I find that rather empowering. I intend to stay conscious of that in my relationship with Danger Man. Wish me luck in that!

[Megan]

Living congruently is the issue here, seems to me. I think Steve wrote a blog on that.

If our romantic life damages our family life, then the two are not congruent.

I truly understand the compelling nature of tempestous emotions, but if I had my life to live over, I would factor in how my behavior was going to impact my children and their children, and somehow, somehow find a way to take care of myself without hurting other people.

Even if there are no children presently involved, the family dynamics will get passed on in energetic form, if Bert Hellinger's Family Constellation work holds any merit, and I believe it does.

There is no judgment in what I say, just hard, hard experience.

Megan

[Brutha]

I'm certainly not condoning the use of hateful language. The whole Don Imus debable a couple months ago certainly underscored the effects that hateful words can have. But we as individuals are products of the society in which we were raised, so society needs to share the responsibility for the use of such language by its members. You can't pin the blame for the hateful language solely on the individual, although the individual ultimately is still responsible for his actions.

First keep in mind that Angela is a moderator of this forum.

By accepting the post made by a forum member without critising the moderators of this forum (as representive of PavlinaLLC) would take the legal responsibilty for a post.
By distancing from the post the creator of the post bears the responsibilty.

The job of a forum moderator is to enforce a certain culture of discussion.
By accepting the forum rules you affirm that the moderators shall do that job.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

If you've either been through it or seen it happen to others, I can't see how you could think it wouldn't. The best you can hope for is it minimize the impact. Seeing their parents split up, even in a bad marriage, is still traumatic for most kids.

Divorce, even when done well, is traumatic - that's undeniable. Whether it's more or less traumatic than an unhappy marriage is a trickier question. I suspect that depends a lot on the specifics of a particular marriage.

Originally Posted by Angela

Matthew, as for the trash can analogy, actually I think women DO feel hurt and betrayed when their man is merely forgetful or careless, as opposed to just being "ignored", because it's important to us to be seen and heard in our relationships. If you forget or are careless with what she has said, I think it's possible that she might make it mean what she says is not important to you. It's important to her that you, the person she loves most in the world, find what she says and wants important.

For the record, it's not just women. Men need to feel heard and valued just as much as women do.

Aprontao,
It seems to me that the ball is very much in her court. You seem to be trying to decide what the right thing is to do on her behalf, and that's not really possible. She has some very difficult decisions to make about what is the appropriate thing to do in a very difficult circumstance.

[Lauxa]

Hey Apronto,

You were asking for similar situations, and I've seen similar situations in my family. My sister had an affair with her, um, sister-in-law and my father-in-law had an affair as well, though not with a relative. And those situations are very painful for everyone involved and cause a lot of drama. IMO you have to put the kids first. And no matter how rocky their marriage is you have NO RIGHT to come between them until they are DIVORCED. At this point, you probably should move away and make a clean break and not see her again until you are in another committed relationship because the wound will not be able to heal if you keep ripping off the scab.

Good luck, I know this is a tough situation but you can get through it.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

the wound will not be able to heal if you keep ripping off the scab.

That's pretty close to a line from The Postal Service... Nothing Better,

Don't you feed me lines about some idealistic future.
Your heart won't heal right if you keep tearing out the sutures.

[mariusa]

I understood Dan's post to describe betrayal as a human construct -- an emotional and psychological invention -- and if my mate has sex with someone other than me, it has no inherent meaning, although I'm free to experience it as a betrayal if I choose. I'm also free to choose to experience it as an opportunity to feel my love for him, and my joy at his finding happiness where ever he may find it. Or I could choose any of an infinite variety of ways of experiencing it.

Oh the time I'm having with the whole concept of betrayal!!!! And I so wish I could become the free thinker in that statement above!!!

My situation is similar (but went a step further) to Apronto except fot the fact of everyone not being related but employee/friends.
My husbands affair partner was a close friend and is an employee. They have had a mutual respect relationship from the moment they met 6 years ago that I wasn't threatened by. She being 18 years younger than he, him sort of like a father figure/mentor, and getting to know her family (husband and 2 small children) for all those years.
Well they left thier families (us having 2 kids also) for eachother.
I'm having a very hard time getting past the betrayal, not only of our marriage vows but also being forced out of the business I helped him grow for most of the 20 years we were married.
I would love to let go of this feeling of betrayal but it is so hard. Being conditioned to believe that marriage and children do indicate some sort of commitment, I understand that it is an ego driven feeling...that I've been wronged.
But on the other hand if you can't depend on the commiment that we both freely agreed to then what is there left? What does it all mean if anyone can just go about doing anything they want in pursue thier own happiness?? Does intergrity mean nothing??
If Apronto pursues his SIL to the point where she decides to leave her husband and children, is that OK because it is pursuing something they perceive as true.....thier love for eachother, that they might belong together?? Or is the commitment she made to her husband and family void because another relationship is more exciting and potentially more satisfying.
Or is the potential to be sacrificed for the commitment??
This is the whole point of my feelings. What is honor and intergry? Is it sacrifice?? Is it the spiritually mature thing to do to sacrifice your potencial happiness for the sake of honoring your commitments to marriage and family??

Even if the love in the marriage is dead or perceived to be dead....I feel the commitment continues to exist. So that means exhausting all efforts to keep the bond (commitment) alive. Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not against divorce, but I am against selfish pursuits of happiness.

I do think, until the concept of marriage is changed from a life long commitment of loving support and partnership, betrayal will always exsist. It's just an expectation that goes along with the institution.

I wish I was raised differently, beleive me, I wish I could turn it off because it really hurts!!!

[Amadeus]

Damn, I know this was posted over a month ago, but what the hell were you thinking? You should have never gotten yourself in that situation if you knew you had feelings for her.

With that said and done, you must get over her. My advice would be to focus on your nephews. Know that she is their mommy and love them. Also know that you can NEVER go there again, even if they separate or divorce. It's just not right for the kids. If she makes advances towards you, let her know quickly that you'll never be interested.

Unfortunately or fortunately, your brother will find out about this. No, I wouldn't tell him because it is really on her to say something since it is her marriage and family. But, women are generally transparent, especially emotionally. She is going to believe that her marriage is broken because of this lie. She will break down this year or years from now, but be prepared. When she does do this, get on your hands and knees and apologize to your brother and let him know that you had feelings for her. Tell him that you should have never put yourself in that situation and that it will never happen again. Good luck to you.

[Bene]

Originally Posted by Aprontao

I wish I could change at least my feelings towards her, but I can't.

You can... it takes effort but you can. You need to move away... start a new life. Any type of contact (bar the ones on thanksgiving and such) only make it more difficult. In fact thats probably why you fell in love with her by being around her even after they got married.

As in anything... move your attention to new things (and other even better women).

[ns123]

sorry, had to have my say. This thread is very interesting.

About betrayal:

The SIL betrayed her husband. A marriage is a contract. The SIL broke it. AP knew of the contract, and he helped enable it's breaking. Yes there is a betrayal. Sorry, no way around it.

If the SIL and brother were not married (ie, an agreement, a contract) - then different story. If the brother agreed to have an "open" marriage, different story. If the SIL divorced the brother and then got with AP, different story.

The point here is, when the SIL made a vow, a promise, a contract, then uh, she is supposed to keep it. Yeah, the SIL and brother can both agree to end the terms of the contract, that's not a betrayal. But the SIL should not LIE to the brother and act like she is still keeping her word when she, in fact, has not.

It feels wrong, doesn't it? Breaking one's word. Breaking your contract with someone else? How is this different than breaking your contract about your life with all the other souls before you incarnated? Oh, oops, it got too hard, so I'll just quietly kill myself. Yeah, no karmic repercussions there.

If people do not keep their word, what else is there? Love? Love at the expense of others is not love, it's selfishness and weakness. (others meaning the children, the cuckolded brother, etc)

Do we make mistakes? Yes we do. And that's ok. We can always make amends for it. Own up, acknowledge the pain we've caused, ask for forgiveness, and forgive ourselves. Then move on.

Advice to AP:
move on from the SIL. I know it's challenging, and you think you can't do it. But you have to. For yourself. And the first step is making that decision. Take it one step at a time.

an aside: I love this discussion by the way. Yall have very interesting perspectives!
hah! didn't realize this post was over 1 year old! so probably my advice is no longer valid, since maybe AP has moved on? Who knows?!?

[Angela]

Wow. Having gone through something similar during the year since your post, Dan, I can only express my tremendous gratitude towards you for lighting a little fire inside me that came in handy later, when something important was ready to be cooked.

If I had not gone through my whole "broken promise" thing with Danger Man, and if I hadn't been sparked by Dan's post, I don't think I would have gone through my recent shift in perspective to Way Beyond 100% Responsibility -- in fact, I'm pretty sure I would be *suffering* now instead of recognizing more joy, power and abundance than I ever before realized existed in me.

From "betrayal" to breakthrough -- Dan, thank you from my bottom to my heart.

Ai chihuahua! What's going to happen in the next year?!?