Bachelorette Party for GF, Discomfort for Me

[Jes]

So, my girlfriend tells me last night she's going out of state tonight to a bachelorette party. Her brother is getting married next week, so it's for her future sister-in-law. My initial reaction was "sweet, more work time for me." The bride-to-be isn't really the wild type, so I assume there won't be anything going on that I'd object to.

Right.

But this morning, just as she's rushing out the door to get to work, she tells me "oh, turns out we ARE going to a strip club." Normally when she says or does something that would make some guys uncomfortable, I let it slide. I'm cool with the fact that all of her friends are guys, and that all of them buy her nicer birthday gifts than I can afford. Most of these guys want to sleep with her, but I don't say anything when she goes to hang out with them at the bar most nights of the week. I've even gotten over the fact that when we started dating, she was seeing me behind someone else's back (not the easiest way to build a "trusting" relationship). All in all, I consider myself a pretty secure boyfriend.

But I'm not comfortable with her spending the weekend inebriated (she can't hold her liquor, and she's a huge pothead) with a bunch of women I don't really know in another state at some random male strip club. So, I simply say "for the record, I want you to note my opposition." And does she? No. She immediately dismisses it, yelling at me because "she can't help that they decided they want to go to a strip club."

Now, it doesn't really bother me that she's still going (I know I don't control her). What bothers me is that she didn't even consider my feelings on the matter. We've been together 1 1/2 years, which isn't the longest relationship I've been in, but long enough to where I would consider her feelings in a similar situation. To me, this could be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Our relationship is rocky, and I put up with a lot more than I should. But then I think "wait, am I really that guy that's going to break up with her because she went to a strip club?" I know that's not really the reason, but that's definitely how she'll see it.

So, what do you think? Am I right in feeling this way? What should I do?

S

[Angela]

Two things jumped out at me in your post:
that she was seeing someone "behind your back" when you first started dating;
that she became angry and defensive when you told her how you feel.

First: when you first start dating someone, there is no obligation to tell each other details about whomever else you're seeing. It's not until you make some agreement about not seeing other people that the obligation kicks in. Until that point, you should assume your date is seeing other people unless told otherwise.

Second: It sounds to me like you guys are in the dark about each other's feelings in a big way due to a communication rift. Each of you is feeling something really important that you can't "hear" because your own unexpressed stuff is too loud in your head.

You might want to approach her in a neutral moment and speak calmly about the fact that you're concerned that both of your feelings are going unheard, and that it's important to you to address that and have an open, loving, and continually improving relationship. She might immediately get defensive if that's her habitual way of being. (If that happens, let it be and give her some time to mull it over and get back to you when she's feeling more safe.)

You might also want to think deeply about your boundaries, as you seem really willing to "give it up" to her -- what's going on with you and power? How was the power balance in your parent's relationship, and can you see any effects of that in your own life? And remember that your girlfriend has her own stuff about power and boundaries. It takes some great communication to jell all those issues together in a way that everybody can feel free, safe, and loving.

Wishing you the best!
angela

[Jes]

Originally Posted by Angela

that she was seeing someone "behind your back" when you first started dating

Oops. I should clarify: she wasn't seeing someone behind MY back. She was ALREADY seeing someone when we first met, then started dating ME behind the other guy's back (they were exclusive).

Originally Posted by Angela

you seem really willing to "give it up" to her

Haha. No, no. It's not that I'm saying "OK" to things I don't think are OK. I just don't micromanage my relationships. I'm pretty much the typical alpha-male, dominant type, and she's pretty submissive. She knows I have boundaries, and she rarely comes close to crossing the line. So I don't see the need to actively control every aspect of her life.

All that being said, however, she comes from a VERY wealthy family, was spoon-fed her entire life, and as a result is almost entirely self-centered. It's not that she's egotistical or bratty (most of the time); she's just consistently ignorant to other people's feelings. And I find that to be a serious character flaw.
.
Hopefully talking to her like you said will work, but I'm almost in a place of "my feelings have been ignored, so I'll ignore hers and just walk away."

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Jes

"my feelings have been ignored, so I'll ignore hers and just walk away."

Hey, Jes. Can you hear the retribution and hurt in this attitude? It really sounds like there is a power struggle in your relationship with this woman. If you walk away without resolving it so you're satisfied and fulfilled (rather than resentful and wronged), you'll carry it with you into the next relationship.

Do you feel like she "owes" you or anyone else consideration of feelings? She does not. That may be something you'd like to have in a relationship, and it may end up being a dealbreaker for you, but you are not "owed" anything from this woman. You mentioned that she comes from a wealthy family; maybe she and you are mirroring for each other a sense of being entitled, although yours looks so different from hers you can barely recognize it. You say that because she knows not to cross your boundary lines, you "don't feel the need to actively control every aspect of her life" -- ironically, to an ear outside of your head that can sound like a very controlling statement . I don't think you mean to be controlling, but can you feel how that attitude might feel constraining to her? And that she might chafe against it?

Can you see where your responsibility lies in the rockiness of your relationship? If you see it as all her doing, you are giving away all your power in the creation of a loving relationship that works for you.

(Jes, I'm not saying you are wrong, because whatever you are feeling is right. I'm just asking you try on a point of view of 100% responsibility, just to see if you can find another way to be as effective and successful as you'd like to be in your relationship. You sound like you love this woman, otherwise you wouldn't bother about it, right?)

Lots of love,
Angela

[Shamou]

Angela.... very wise and powerful advice...

.

[Carl Carlson IV]

I may be young, but I know that a great relationship and trust is built upon good communication and openness. I have been dating my girlfriend now for almost 4.5 years and I know that we will eventually get married and have a family. We are very trusting with each other and greatly repsect each others concerns. In my eyes it is the perfect relationship and could never be happier!

You seem to be very understanding and trusting, which is good. Most people would be very insecure with their spouse going out with the opposite sex regularly. Just from the short story it doesn't seem like everything is totally mutual, which it should be. I would ask her to be more understanding of your feelings and concerns.

Have you ever read The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman? If not, I suggest you and your girlfriend read it together. We just did and learned a lot about how to show our love to each other, it's a great read!

[Carl Carlson IV]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Angela.... very wise and powerful advice...

.

QFT! Strong words.

[Jes]

This was probably a mistake, but I just called her and left a message. The more I thought about it throughout the day, the more uncomfortable I became with the idea. I felt obligated to call and set the record straight on where I stand, this way there'd be no misunderstanding.

In the end, I always feel like a villain.

[Doku]

what I read into this as being the major part of the problem is that she is stupid when she's drunk. Why not suggest that you feel uncomfortable with the situation and would feel a lot better if she didn't drink before/during the strip club?
(although from the time of the posts, I assume that the strip club has already happened)

[larnen]

Hmm...Have you been to a male strip club? They are more amusing than arousing. If she loves you, man nipples and thongs won't drive her away.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Doku

what I read into this as being the major part of the problem is that she is a stupid drunk.

I feel that this is highly offensive to Jes... If I were Jes I would certainly report that... you are talking about a guy's girlfriend here...

.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Shamou

I feel that this is highly offensive to Jes... If I were Jes I would certainly report that... you are talking about a guy's girlfriend here...

.

That remark was offensive all around, as we're talking about a human being here. Doku, would you please rethink and rephrase your post so as to avoid referring to a person in such a poisonous way?

Thanks.

[Doku]

Changed it to "stupid when drunk" which is what was intended.

Does seem harsh when I re-read the origional.... sorry.

[medaille]

Originally Posted by Doku
what I read into this as being the major part of the problem is that she is a stupid drunk.

I wouldn't worry too much about this comment. I understood what it mean perfectly. Maybe people from other parts of the country don't talk like that, who knows. Or maybe they don't have different kinds of drunks?

Anyway, with regards to the strip club. I think you are making way too much out of the deal.

From her perspective, I would imagine that she is at a can't miss social gathering where the hostess(es) set up the plans. Here you come along and tell her that you want her to miss an important event in the life of someone she's close to. You are restricting her ability to share her socialability at a once in a lifetime moment for someone in her family.

Who better to go to the strip club with then a family member? How crazy can it possibly get before word spreads through the family? She most likely will do anything in her power to avoid be labeled the slut of the family. Heck, maybe her brother recuited her to make sure the bride didn't go to crazy? In that instance, you would be asking her to betray her brothers best interest.

I get the impression that you are making a lot of assumptions, when you should just be asking her how she feels or what she thinks of it.

What exactly bothers you('re ego) about her going to the strip club with her sister-in-law?

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by medaille

I wouldn't worry too much about this comment. I understood what it mean perfectly. Maybe people from other parts of the country don't talk like that, who knows. Or maybe they don't have different kinds of drunks?

Is it acceptable to call a guy's girlfriend a "stupid drunk" where you live...???

.

[medaille]

Is it acceptable to call someone an "angry drunk" or a "violent drunk" where you live?

It just describes how the alcohol affects them, meaning they make less intelligent choices, are more angry, or are more violent under the effects of alcohol.

You aren't calling them a STUPID DRUNK as in "That stupid drunk driver almost hit me, how dumb can you be to drive drunk?" It's more along the lines of "I can't believe it, I forgot my credit card at the bar again. I should just pay in cash because sometimes I'm a stupid drunk."

The word stupid is an adjective of the word drunk and not of the person who is drunk thus explaining the "she's stupid when she's drunk".

Like anything, it's acceptable in the appropriate context.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by medaille

Like anything, it's acceptable in the appropriate context.

It may be... but Doku was talking about Jes' girlfriend... how acceptable is that...???

.

[Angela]

I think that would like saying it's contextually appropriate to call someone a "f**cking numbskull" in a situation in which her head bumps too hard against the headboard during sex. Which is to say, not really.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Angela

I think that would like saying it's contextually appropriate to call someone a "f**cking numbskull" in a situation in which her head bumps too hard against the headboard during sex. Which is to say, not really.

Bwahahaha... that is so funny... I think you got the point across...

.

[Matthew Shea]

WRT the stupid drunk comment, while it may not have been well-considered when Doku posted it, I think he's getting too much of a hard time. My wife calls herself a "cheap date" because of her low tolerance. I'd group the term "stupid drunk" right in with that and, if someone I cared about fit that description, I wouldn't necessarily take offense to it, depending on the intent of the person using that term. I don't think Doku had any ill intent.

WRT the strip club, I wouldn't worry about it, Jes. I've been privy to several discussions my wife has had with her friends about their visit to a male strip club in Windsor, Ontario (where they can take it ALL off). (This visit was before she met me, FWIW). It seems to me that women primarily view it as a curiosity, not something arousing, like men tend to view a strip club experience. Sure there's an excitement to it, but only the most raunchy of our fairer-sexed companions would consider even allowing any contact whatsoever. My wife, for example, had a stripper grind his crotch near her face, not making contact, mind you, but getting very close. She was really, authentically creeped out by it. Her friend noticed what was happening and read the stripper the riot act because of it.

[medaille]

And this threads been officially sidetracked even though no one had any bad intentions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medaille
Like anything, it's acceptable in the appropriate context.

It may be... but Doku was talking about Jes' girlfriend... how acceptable is that...???

How acceptable is it to call your best friend a "stupid m@therf@cker"?

He clearly wasn't intending to belittle her. He stated it in plain english and he reworded his statements when his original statements didn't transfer the message he was trying to convey. We all unconsciously use the language that is native to us to try to convey the thoughts we are trying to express. Maybe he wasn't completely conscious of the fact that the choice of words he would use in his everyday life around the people he's with most wouldn't be heard the way he desired when stripped of tonality, facial expressions, and body language and expressed to people of different cultures.

Maybe someday, internet communication will effectively replicate the 95% of communication not reflected purely through words.

Until that day, we'll all just have to learn that each of us lives under different cultural guidelines which confuse the crap out of people that don't live within those cultures.

It may be... but Doku was talking about Jes' girlfriend... how acceptable is that...???

Jes said that she doesn't hold her liquor and that he worried about what she would do while drunk at the strip club. In my culture, that is the definition of being stupid when you're drunk. It means that when you're drunk you do stuff you wouldn't do sober.

It wouldn't be that big of an issue to call anybody a stupid drunk in my culture when it's already been defined.

[Angela]

That headboard thing happens most often when I've been drinking. So that would make me a "f**king numbskull drunk."

I can say that, but YOU can't. Not in my culture.



p.s. Jes, what happened!?

[medaille]

Next time we're in that situation, I'll call you that and we'll both laugh like there's no tomorrow.

p.s. Jes, what happened!?

Ditto.

[Jes]

First off, even if he intentionally called her a stupid drunk, I'm not offended. I don't think that's what he meant to write, but he'd be dead-on if it was.

Anyway, I'm fully aware of what a male strip club is, what goes on there, etc. The issue really wasn't with the club, but with my feelings and her disregard for them. I had two rules: don't sleep with anybody, and stay away from strip clubs. Now I guess I'm only allowed one.

Well, we had a long talk about it, and I don't think anything was resolved, really. I feel like at the end of the day, I had no choice but to either A) end the relationship, or B) pretend it didn't happen. I didn't have the strength to end it (I'm not ready to be single again), especially on that note, so I guess I'm stuck with dealing with it on my own.

What really bothers me now that I've heard the whole story, though, is that I don't think the groom-to-be is aware of any of it. I don't think he was told what was going to happen, nor was he told what DID happen. His idea of a bachelor party was him and his buddies drinking wine, playing Atari, and watching old war movies. And I think his idea of a bachelorette party was a "girls' night out," not Girls Gone Wild. And I know that's none of my business, but it definitely added to my loss of respect for my girlfriend. He probably wouldn't be cool with what happened this weekend, and she knows that, but she didn't do anything before or after the fact to consider his feelings either.

So now I've got a four hour car-ride with her to the wedding tomorrow, and I just don't know what to do. I've been trying to observe the relationship objectively, and some of you are right: there DOES seem to be a power struggle. All week she's been on this "female empowerment" trip. Now, I view men and women pretty equally, but this goes beyond equality. She's blatantly being out of line, defending herself everytime I speak (NO, I'M NOT GIVING HER ANY REASON TO), and offending me everytime she speaks (NO, I'M NOT GIVING HER ANY REASON TO). Honestly, between this and the weekend and my past relationships, I'm beginning to harbor a lot of sexist thoughts. And just when I think "God, I can't do this anymore," she smiles and I remember how unprepared I am for the single life. I don't know what to do. I won't stand for her talking back much longer (because I'm a person, not because she's a woman), but the other option is really even less appealing.

Ugh.

[Shamou]

Total respect is essential to a relationship... and total respect means that you can accept the other person's view and let him or her make her own decisions...

I am married to a strong and independent woman... and I love her that way... wimps are not for me...

Good luck to you...

.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

If you don't respect your girlfriend there will probably not be a way to resolve this. I understand where you are coming from. In my relationship there have been some of the same issues and a sense of power or control being sought by both sides. It makes for some very trying times. I don't now how to fix it. I also know how hard it is to just chuck it all and go back to the single life after you've invested time and such into a relationship.

My only advice is to consider whether staying in the relationship is more or less appealing than quiting it. Maybe for now you just want to hang in there for whatever comfort or familiarity that brings you. But I would challenge you to look deeper and find out why you are really staying in a relationship that upsets you so much (and this is a challenge I am dealing with as well, so I wouldn't blame you if you chose not to even go there).

I think in the end, there is hope for almost every relationship if both parties want to make it work and really put in an effort. But is she willing to do that? Are you?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Jes

First off, even if he intentionally called her a stupid drunk, I'm not offended. I don't think that's what he meant to write, but he'd be dead-on if it was..

...The issue really wasn't with the club, but with my feelings and her disregard for them. I had two rules: don't sleep with anybody, and stay away from strip clubs. Now I guess I'm only allowed one...

...She's blatantly being out of line, defending herself everytime I speak (NO, I'M NOT GIVING HER ANY REASON TO), and offending me everytime she speaks (NO, I'M NOT GIVING HER ANY REASON TO). Honestly, between this and the weekend and my past relationships, I'm beginning to harbor a lot of sexist thoughts. And just when I think "God, I can't do this anymore," she smiles and I remember how unprepared I am for the single life. I don't know what to do. I won't stand for her talking back much longer (because I'm a person, not because she's a woman), but the other option is really even less appealing...

Jes, you know what goes on in a male strip club, and "the issue really wasn't with the club," so why did you have a rule that she had to stay away from them? It sounds like an arbitrary rule designed to control her.

You say that she is defensive, and yet you are capital-letters defensive yourself. You complain that she is insensitive to your feelings, but then you derisively say she's on a "female empowerment trip" without seeming to be at all interested in what's bugging her or how your actions might factor in to her behavior -- you call it "talking back" which sounds very paternal and controlling.

And you allow a derogatory comment to be applied to her as dead-on. (If you don't think that calling the woman you're involved with a "stupid drunk" involves derision, you're missing something big.) Finally, you're beginning to harbor sexist thoughts because of this woman and your past relationships. In other words, your relationship problems are all women's fault!

All this, and yet you're willing to remain in this contempt-filled relationship because you're terrified of being alone. That sounds horrible, for both of you.

If you can find the generosity in your heart, I recommend you either:

a) Take 100% responsibility for this and all your relationships: figure out what you are doing to create and maintain what's going on, and what you can do differently that would work better; or

b) Let her go. If you are not willing to grant your lover the freedom to be exactly who she is and who she isn't, it's something other than love.

If you choose b), you will almost certainly continue this pattern of finding yourself thinking your relationships would be great, if it weren't for the woman! If you choose a), you'll be generating all the power in the world to create a life you're in love with. Plus the wedding tomorrow will be way more fun.

Good luck to you, and sorry about the tough love. I really hope you are successful.

Lots of love,
Angela

[Jes]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

If you don't respect your girlfriend there will probably not be a way to resolve this. I understand where you are coming from. In my relationship there have been some of the same issues and a sense of power or control being sought by both sides. It makes for some very trying times. I don't now how to fix it. I also know how hard it is to just chuck it all and go back to the single life after you've invested time and such into a relationship.

My only advice is to consider whether staying in the relationship is more or less appealing than quiting it. Maybe for now you just want to hang in there for whatever comfort or familiarity that brings you. But I would challenge you to look deeper and find out why you are really staying in a relationship that upsets you so much (and this is a challenge I am dealing with as well, so I wouldn't blame you if you chose not to even go there).

I think in the end, there is hope for almost every relationship if both parties want to make it work and really put in an effort. But is she willing to do that? Are you?

Well, I'm in a weird place. I am in no way ready to get married, and I can't imagine being ready for at least another decade. That being said, I'm 99% certain that I don't want to marry this girl. She's a terrific companion (life companion, even), but she lacks the qualities that I'd look for in the mother of my children. And I wouldn't marry a woman just because I love her. I'd marry a woman because I want to raise my children with her. Ideally, I'd be able to do both at the same time.

So, if marriage is out of the question, why am I still with her?

A) I'm depressed, I've constantly been in long-term relationships since high school, and I'm self-employed. If not for her, the only other people I'd see on a regular basis are my parents. No co-workers, no local friends. Learning how to be completely alone is a lesson I REALLY want to learn, but I don't think I'm strong enough to take the course yet.
B) Music: I've never met a woman with such an intense passion for music. She is the only person I know who has a better record collection than me. I've been an active musician for ten years, so this is a really big deal for me. She's even told me that I usually don't bother talking in public unless it's about music.
C) Sex: I don't remember what it's like to go without it for more than three days.
D) Weed: I don't remember what it's like to go without it for more than three days.
E) She's smart and cultured, so we have a lot to talk about, and a lot in common. If we ever get bored, there's always Scrabble.
F) She's attractive. All of her guy friends want to sleep with her. Personally, I think a makeover and a little exercise could take her a long way (she's got one hell of a canvas, but she's a lazy Tomboy), but my last girlfriend was a fashion designer who never left the bedroom without looking better than the day before. Still, most guys wouldn't complain.

Well, after writing all of that out, I guess I'd look like an idiot if I didn't post the negatives:

A) She's a negative influence. For example, I had a root canal last week, so I thought I shouldn't smoke for at least three days afterward. But because my doctor "didn't say it," she kept trying to get me to. My doctor also didn't say I needed a prescription for Penicillin. I had to ask.
B) She's the laziest person I've ever met. If I didn't wake her up in the morning, she'd never get to work on time. Her parents are multi-millionaires, and sent her to three different Ivy League schools. She was too lazy to finish the last semester. If she wanted to go to graduate school anywhere in the world, her parents could buy her in, and pay for the whole ride. If she wanted to start a business, her parents could give her a million in startup capital. But what does she do? She works at a sneaker store in the mall for $7/hr., part-time.
C) She's allegedly "bi-polar" or MPD or Schizo, but she's well-medicated, so I haven't seen any of that in a really long time. Still, the thought that she could snap at any time is a burden. Mental instability somehow justifies me sleeping with a knife in my pocket.
D) She's unhealthy. As I said, she's heavily medicated, and the "doctors" she sees show no signs of wanting to get her off the 6 medications she's on, or lose any of the thousands of dollars a week they make off her "therapy" sessions discussing last week's "Sopranos." She smokes a pack every other day, and eats a 60%Fat/30%Carb/10%Protein diet, with multiple cups of coffee and Red Bull on top of Adderall every day. Her only exercise is walking from house to car to work to car to house. What's this got to do with me? To start, almost every cigarette she smokes kills her and me at the same time.

OK. Done rambling.

[Doku]

Originally Posted by Jes

The issue really wasn't with the club, but with my feelings and her disregard for them. I had two rules: don't sleep with anybody, and stay away from strip clubs. Now I guess I'm only allowed one.

My guess is that she told you she was going instead of asking if she could go. And then you "ordered" her to not go, and it was a downward spiral from there.

If this is the case, then my suggestion would be having a conversation something along the lines of: "Look. The issue I have is not really that you went. It's that you TOLD me that you were going, and did not involve me in the decision even though you know that I don't like the idea. If we are going to be integrating our lives, we need to integrate the decisions as well because our actions shape our lives."

Just remember... discussions solve problems. Arguments just create more.

Originally Posted by Jes

What really bothers me now that I've heard the whole story, though, is that I don't think the groom-to-be is aware of any of it. I don't think he was told what was going to happen, nor was he told what DID happen.

Starting out a relationship on lies and deception... not good. I'd suggest telling that to the bride, but then you'd look like an ass for raining on her wedding. Ratting her out to her husband will do no good. She has to be the one to tell him herself.

Originally Posted by Jes

there DOES seem to be a power struggle.

I'd suggest a lack of respect and maturity more than anything.

Originally Posted by Jes

And just when I think "God, I can't do this anymore," she smiles and I remember how unprepared I am for the single life. I don't know what to do. I won't stand for her talking back much longer (because I'm a person, not because she's a woman), but the other option is really even less appealing.

Two things here.
1) Unprepared for single life... and you think that in another six months, a year, 2, 4, 5, ... you will be ready to go back?
2) Her talking back?? Pardon, but wtf? It's a two way street. The instant you try to "lay down the law" with ANYONE, you can expect them to lash out at you. Again, discussion, not arguments.

[Doku]

Originally Posted by Jes

So, if marriage is out of the question, why am I still with her?

A) Get out more. Go to concerts, or live entertainment at a local bar/restaurant, or ...
B) You need to find more topics to discuss.
C) Get married... then you'll remember.
D) Try to learn
E) Pick some intellectual things to do... museums, exhibits, etc.
F) Start exercising together... hiking, biking, canoeing, etc.

Originally Posted by Jes

Well, after writing all of that out, I guess I'd look like an idiot if I didn't post the negatives:

A) See D) above.
B) a. See F) above. b. Get her parents involved in an intervention.
C) See F) above.
D) a. See F) above. b. Get her parents involved in an intervention.


There are a few things at work here. First off, even if you don't see marriage as a possibility, you are still integrating your lives, and need to have mutual respect with each other. Otherwise, things aren't going to go well no matter what.
Second, "Drugs are bad. Mmmm-Kay?!" That's likely a good bit of her mental issues, her sloth, etc. as well as some of your issues.
Third, get her involved in some kind of athletic activity. Join it with her. Be it dance classes, or bodybuilding, hang gliding or surfing, jogging or martial arts... just get active. You will be much healthier and happier because of it. (and you'll also have another thing to talk about)