I came in here for an argument

[Mondrian]

Largely true, perhaps.

But I don't see anything wrong in looking for an argument. Social life can be frustrating when we tend to avoid awkward situations and arguments. I am more free to express my contrarian side here. It's an outlet and healthy for that.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

Largely true, perhaps.

But I don't see anything wrong in looking for an argument. Social life can be frustrating when we tend to avoid awkward situations and arguments. I am more free to express my contrarian side here. It's an outlet and healthy for that.

Arguments are fine, so long as you keep it civil.

You may be able to find one, depending on what you're looking to argue about. Personally, I think you should hire one of these guys instead:
Argument Clinic - YouTube

[nistacular]

I feel like too many people think arguments are so negative, and also so many people are scared shitless of negative emotions, or at least with disagreeing with people.... I absolutely think discussions should be as open and honest as possible at all costs. What'd ya want to argue about? lol

At the same time, deliberately provoking people or saying things you know to be offensive might have consequences in some settings.... lol

[nistacular]

Oh hey shitless isn't hearted out - maybe a mod can tell someone who can fix that or something.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by nistacular

Oh hey shitless isn't hearted out - maybe a mod can tell someone who can fix that or something.

You can edit your own posts, look for a button at the bottom right of the post.

[nistacular]

I meant fix the problem of it not being bleeped out in the first place - don't particularly care about it being there haha

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by nistacular

I meant fix the problem of it not being bleeped out in the first place - don't particularly care about it being there haha

Well, that's not a very nice attitude.

[FelineNostalgia]

Arguments can be a problem though when they don't change the fact the other person isn't going to listen. I like openly debating things , it makes life a lot simpler, but I come across people who might as well be talking to themselves because they take nothing the other person says in, it's just frustrating. Suppose at least you know where you stand afterwards

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Arguments are fine, so long as you keep it civil.

You may be able to find one, depending on what you're looking to argue about. Personally, I think you should hire one of these guys instead:
Argument Clinic - YouTube

Part of my point is that keeping it civil is what goes on in the 'real' world, and in here I want to be free to be less civil if I want to do so.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

Part of my point is that keeping it civil is what goes on in the 'real' world, and in here I want to be free to be less civil if I want to do so.

You should try another forum then. This one doesn't tolerate incivility.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

But I don't see anything wrong in looking for an argument.

Argument Clinic - YouTube

One of my all-time favorite sketches of anything.

[nistacular]

that's cuz most people don't know how to argue and not take things personally... you have to demand attention by like... asking direct questions and expecting answers. Then you have to be receptive to what they're saying and listen and respond to all points of contention - and THEN you add your own opinion back in and expect the same (sorry don't mean to preach to the choir btw) but yeah.... if they don't hold you to the same standard then it's sort of like a lack of respect for the argument, or an unwillingness to be open with you - I don't care to argue with these people. But if you argue correctly, you'll get down to the root cause of the disagreement, and you can usually happily agree to disagree or actually end up with a new respect for the other person/maybe even change your opinion... I know most people don't think that's possible but it is!

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by FelineNostalgia

Arguments can be a problem though when they don't change the fact the other person isn't going to listen. I like openly debating things , it makes life a lot simpler, but I come across people who might as well be talking to themselves because they take nothing the other person says in, it's just frustrating. Suppose at least you know where you stand afterwards

Maybe, though, having an argument, even of the type where you're just banging your head against a brick wall, so to speak, can be an outlet for frustration. I remember a recent argument I had where I felt better for getting really frustrated that the other person hadn't understood my point, and shouting out about frustrated I was with that.

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by VinceG

You should try another forum then. This one doesn't tolerate incivility.

Maybe you should try another forum.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

Maybe you should try another forum.

I do actually. I post on two others.

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by VinceG

I do actually. I post on two others.

In an uncivcil manner, at all?

If there are forums where one is allowed to be uncivil, that might negate the point of having an outlet to be uncivil because one needs the civil there to be able to challenge it with the uncivil. If there was nothing civil to 'rage against' then there perhaps would be no outlet. Or perhaps, no need for an outlet in the first place. I'm not saying that would be better because civility has many advantaes for me which I am keen to retain.

It could be, though, that a freely uncivil forum on the internet would provide such an outlet because it would still exist within the context of civil society, although somewhat underground with it being in cyberspace rather than the real world.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

In an uncivcil manner, at all?

If there are forums where one is allowed to be uncivil, that might negate the point of having an outlet to be uncivil because one needs the civil there to be able to challenge it with the uncivil. If there was nothing civil to 'rage against' then there perhaps would be no outlet. Or perhaps, no need for an outlet in the first place. I'm not saying that would be better because civility has many advantaes for me which I am keen to retain.

It could be, though, that a freely uncivil forum on the internet would provide such an outlet because it would still exist within the context of civil society, although somewhat underground with it being in cyberspace rather than the real world.

No actually, both those forums demand civility too. But I did used to post on one that tolerated incivility, just not over-the-top profanity. And I would take advantage of that when it suited me. Over time I came to realize that I didn't really need this "outlet," and my lack of inner discipline was hurting my ability to connect with others.

So I came to appreciate forums which do not tolerate people taking their issues out on others.

[Brutha]

If there are forums where one is allowed to be uncivil, that might negate the point of having an outlet to be uncivil because one needs the civil there to be able to challenge it with the uncivil.

4chan would be a forum that allow you to be uncivil. People troll each other and you will see more different forums of uncivility than you imagined beforehand.

This forum however exists for a different purpose. It's not a place to let loose.

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by VinceG

No actually, both those forums demand civility too. But I did used to post on one that tolerated incivility, just not over-the-top profanity. And I would take advantage of that when it suited me. Over time I came to realize that I didn't really need this "outlet," and my lack of inner discipline was hurting my ability to connect with others.

So I came to appreciate forums which do not tolerate people taking their issues out on others.

Okay.

How does your lack of inner discipline nurt your ability to connect with others? I mean, I don't know what you were saying on these other forums, but in some ways, a more freely expressive person might connect better through their authenticity. You know?

I certainly didn't feel connected to you when you suggested I should try another forum. I felt, 'what is this, 1984?: I've mentioned the word 'argument' and the police have arrived'.

I think this forum is largely about working out issues with others and part of that sometimes involves people taking their issues out on others. I'm not sure you can effectively separate the two. I think as long as suchlike is seen in that context it is okay for this forum.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

Okay.

How does your lack of inner discipline nurt your ability to connect with others? I mean, I don't know what you were saying on these other forums, but in some ways, a more freely expressive person might connect better through their authenticity. You know?

Yes, this is one thing that can happen, that's what happened at my former boards, actually. Another thing that can happen is the general level of discourse on the forums steadily declines. You see this effect particularly in online video games.

I certainly didn't feel connected to you when you suggested I should try another forum. I felt, 'what is this, 1984?: I've mentioned the word 'argument' and the police have arrived'.

Well, I didn't suggest another forum until you declared an intention to be uncivil. And that was only because the forum rules are clear in this instance.

I think this forum is largely about working out issues with others and part of that sometimes involves people taking their issues out on others. I'm not sure you can effectively separate the two. I think as long as suchlike is seen in that context it is okay for this forum.

You can do anything you want here, so long as you keep it civil.

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by Brutha

4chan would be a forum that allow you to be uncivil. People troll each other and you will see more different forums of uncivility than you imagined beforehand.

This forum however exists for a different purpose. It's not a place to let loose.

Surely this forum is a place to let loose within the context of that different purpose. If that different purpose that you speak of excludes 'letting loose' then I think that purpose is more limited than I thought.

This is the forum for PD for SM. Part of being smart and part of developing is challenging the status quo, challenging the rules which are taken to be fixed and seeing that they are not. I find you are too quick to dismiss and suppress such activity.

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Well, I didn't suggest another forum until you declared an intention to be uncivil. And that was only because the forum rules are clear in this instance.

I don't think I declared an intention to be uncivil. I think you jumped the gun a little.

I also want to discuss what is 'civil' as part of my PD. Is it civil to discuss the meaning of civil and challenge the definition of civil as a rule of conduct on this forum?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

I don't think I declared an intention to be uncivil. I think you jumped the gun a little.

Okay, I can accept that.

I also want to discuss what is 'civil' as part of my PD. Is it civil to discuss the meaning of civil and challenge the definition of civil as a rule of conduct on this forum?

Sure. There's nothing wrong with what you're doing in this thread.

[Angela]

Mondrian, have you read Steve's very recent blog post, in which he declares that he has been lax about enforcing the rules but will be nipping rulebreakers in the bud going forward?

There was another thread in which a member said pretty much what you're saying here, that one ought to be free to be uncivil in the forums and that it's an opportunity for growth, etc., and then he went ahead and posted in an uncivil way. (He got banned lickety split.) You might find the discussion in there interesting.

I think you ARE free to be uncivil in the forums, at least for as long as it takes for the consequences of that to kick in.

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Okay, I can accept that.


Sure. There's nothing wrong with what you're doing in this thread.

Thank you.

And thanks for keeping me right about the rules as I wouldn't want to get banned by mistake.

[Mounds]

Whatever you do, don't go looking for a different forum to argue in.

That would be flexible. Smart people don't do flexibility.

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by Angela

Mondrian, have you read Steve's very recent blog post, in which he declares that he has been lax about enforcing the rules but will be nipping rulebreakers in the bud going forward?

There was another thread in which a member said pretty much what you're saying here, that one ought to be free to be uncivil in the forums and that it's an opportunity for growth, etc., and then he went ahead and posted in an uncivil way. (He got banned lickety split.) You might find the discussion in there interesting.

I think you ARE free to be uncivil in the forums, at least for as long as it takes for the consequences of that to kick in.

I suppose I have my frustrations like anyone and want to voice those without being rejected. Do you know what I mean? I think there is a large uncivil side to us that is part of who we are. Speak for myself at least.

Perhaps I just want to know that I can be uncivil without and not be rejected.

You guys are effectively telling me I will be rejected for expressing part of who I am.

Of course I can go somewhere else and express myself and not be rejected but I am still rejected by this place.

I want to be honest and I will say something honest. I find the control of this forum quite cult-like (I don't care if this has been said before) and a lot of the posting quite cult-like too. I also find this forum a good place to explore and discuss different ideas and points of view and there are conversations I want to be part of. The whole human society and sub-societies are all quite cult-like in their own way, in my view, and this is probably necessary for them to run eficiently and achieve their function. But I don't want to be in a cult. I tend to get pleasure from challenging or rejecting cult-like activities.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

I want to be honest and I will say something honest. I find the control of this forum quite cult-like (I don't care if this has been said before) and a lot of the posting quite cult-like too. I also find this forum a good place to explore and discuss different ideas and points of view and there are conversations I want to be part of. The whole human society and sub-societies are all quite cult-like in their own way, in my view, and this is probably necessary for them to run eficiently and achieve their function. But I don't want to be in a cult. I tend to get pleasure from challenging or rejecting cult-like activities.

The problem is that you're basically asking everyone on this forum to change so that you can feel comfortable. That reeks of entitlement.

There's nothing wrong with dissent. Sometimes that will evolve into the argument you're looking for (check out World Affairs...). However, I don't think many people here feel the need to start arguments in order to vent frustration.

My serious suggestion is to you put out the call that you'd like to argue with people through PM. I'm sure you'll get takers. If you want to make it public, approximately 50% of the words written on the internet are venting frustration. Feel free to join them.

How exactly this forum is cult-like is beyond me. We're literally telling you that what you are looking for is not here, and encouraging you to go out into the open world to find your desire.

-Tim

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

Largely true, perhaps.

But I don't see anything wrong in looking for an argument. Social life can be frustrating when we tend to avoid awkward situations and arguments. I am more free to express my contrarian side here. It's an outlet and healthy for that.

Where in your life are you repressing yourself so much that you have to argue to let out this violence?

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by Mounds

The problem is that you're basically asking everyone on this forum to change so that you can feel comfortable. That reeks of entitlement.

I don't think I'm asking anyone to change. And if what I am doing 'reeks of entitlement', so what? I'm not here not to reek of entitlement for your benefit.

There's nothing wrong with dissent. Sometimes that will evolve into the argument you're looking for (check out World Affairs...). However, I don't think many people here feel the need to start arguments in order to vent frustration.

Again, so what? What does it matter to me what other people feel the need to do?

My serious suggestion is to you put out the call that you'd like to argue with people through PM. I'm sure you'll get takers. If you want to make it public, approximately 50% of the words written on the internet are venting frustration. Feel free to join them.

I'm not really interested in your sugestion. I'm here.

How exactly this forum is cult-like is beyond me. We're literally telling you that what you are looking for is not here, and encouraging you to go out into the open world to find your desire.

If you can't see what is cult-like about this forum or any other group human behaviour, it is not my problem. It is a defining characteristic of a cult-member that they can't see it as a cult that they are in.