Struggling with this dating thing

[Cochonette]

Oooh, boy. This is the most I've ever dated one person, and it's been not even 2.5 months since we met. The past few weeks with her have been stressing me the hell out! And that's a lot for someone you just started dating.

I am having trouble deciding whether I should just break it off or try to be the bigger person because she's definitely not going to be the person who saves this relationship, I can tell.

The thing is, she was intensely interested in me at first. More so than I was interested in her, really. But apparently I'm the one who gets attached a lot more easily, so it doesn't matter that she liked me more than vice versa.

Suddenly one day I discovered her tumblr blog where I discovered a lot of stuff she was posting about me. The latest thing about me was the first negative thing she wrote with regard to knowing me, and it say "monotony... or monogamy. i'm headed straight for it and i'm already looking for the lever to derail." This trouble me, but since it was only one thing, I decided to wait it out and see what else she posted on there and how she interacted with me. Well, our date the next night went beautifully, so I decided not to worry. But the night after that she quickly stopped our making out (compared to usual) and just went to sleep. Then the next night was much worse - she didn't seem to have any affection for me at all, or if she did, it seemed forced. Then the next day was Thanksgiving, which we'd been planning together for a while... we were alone, and I discovered she wrote on her blog something that I thought must be about me since she was spending all her time with me. It said "that moment when you want to go back to every single feeling that put you in this situation and squash the ♥♥♥♥ out of all of them." Well, I went to her place and tried expressing tons of affection the whole evening, but she again seemed undesirous and forced.

What a miserable Thanksgiving. I asked her then if she was tired of me. She looked up at me with a furrowed brow, as if annoyed, and said that she barely knew me, how could she be tired of me.

So then that Friday night I noticed she wrote on her blog that she wanted to go out to this lesbian bar even though she was so tired and had work in the morning just because she met a girl who is "beyond cute" and with whom she hit it off really well..

Okay, the next day I asked her at work (we work together) if she wasn't interested in me anymore. She said, "Don't be like that," and that she was still interested. Again, it seemed a little forced.

The day after THAT I read a rather disturbing message on her blog saying that she thought "she" was "doting" on her and how it just makes her want her alone time. I thought this was about me, so a few days after that and seeing as her interest in me seemed renewed, I did tell her I read her blog and was bothered by it.

Lo and behold, she tells me some of the things I thought were about me were NOT. The thing about someone doting on her was about this girl at her other job who she had had a thing with, who was wanting to spend more time with her while she was busy hanging out with me.

This conversation seemed to make her quite uncomfortable, like she wanted it to end quickly. She asked if we were good, and I said yes because I was afraid to pursue the matter and push her further away.

After that things were fine for a while... she didn't post on her blog for a week, I presume because of that conversation.

But I became anxious about things again lately, and then she posted on her blog: "What if I’m just bored?

What happens to us now?"

I was so distraught and sure it was about me that I immediately called her up and asked if it was about me. She said it wasn't. She said the thing about monotony and monogamy also wasn't about me. (Oh, by the way, after I read that bit I asked her how she felt about polyamory, and she said it stressed her out. Funny, huh?)

Anyway, she again didn't seem too keen on reassuring me, though she made attempts. What I recall her saying after we discussed it was, "I don't know how else to reassure you," yet I could think so many ways she could have reassured me, like by actually sounding like she really wanted to reassure me!

She sounded like she really wanted to make things right when she "formally" invited me over "anytime" the following evening to continue the conversation (tonight). I did find the conversation reassuring mostly, though, because I realized I had been a fool and wrong that those things on her blog were about me.

I called her at 8:00, and she told me that she'd forgotten there was book club happening right then at her house. She said she'd call me later but sounded totally unenthusiastic. I waited and waited like a fool, knowing she has work at 9AM.Stressing, I finally decided to reopen her blog. It says that last night she posted "I had one of the most awkward conversations tonight.
I’m pretty sure this is one of those times when it’s going to get worse before it gets better.

I’m really tired of this dating game." Imagine how stressed I am because my first question to her with regard to all this drama was "Are you tired of me?" And here she goes saying she is tired of this dating game with me.

I called her at nearly 11:00, and she just sent me a FB message saying they were choosing the next book. Finally just now as I am writing this post, she calls me and asked if I still wanted to talk. I said, "Do you want to talk?" She says not really, but we "should." We both don't like making decisions, so we had a really awkward moment where neither of us was obviously eager to say we wanted to have this conversation and neither of us wanted to make the decision to have it tonight or not. Now she is coming over in a few, though.

But here's the thing... I feel like I am just stressing out because it's a habit and because I need to keep working on that self-confidence and "100% responsibility," right? I want to just be love. To just be calm, stable, collected, emotionally in control, understanding, unassuming, decisive, independent, spontaneous, playful, courageous, and free. I can be all these things, certainly!

And yet I know that I am imperfect and will continue to struggle with this. It really, really stresses me out when it does. Maybe we are just incompatible. She is not perfect either. I know that in some ways she is more confident than I am - able to be free of me, unattached. That's great! I want to be like so! But on the other hand, I have realized we are such different people. We actually like to express and receive affection differently, which has nothing to do with anyone's insecurities. Furthermore, I like to communicate directly and openly about feelings and reassure the one I like/love if they have doubts about us, as long as it's not an attack on me. I'd never feel like I just need alone time if the other person were expressing too much affection. I'd never feel tired of them for trying to communicate directly and honestly with me about how they feel.

Yet she does. And that bothers me. And I don't want it to bother me.

Also knowing how she is also imperfect - look at that assumption she made about me saying that this is probably going to get worse before better... I felt not too bad until I read that! Self-fulfilling prophecies on both ends! I thought I was the only fool making assumptions here. I am probably just another self-fulfilling prophecy by worrying about all of this!

I also wonder how honest she is. The first time we had a conversation about her blog, I said, "Well, that was awkward," and she brushed it off saying she's used to awkward. Plus she always told me she likes awkwardness. Now she is saying she is so tired of awkward. How honest is this really? She told me before that she's working on not being a pushover, and I told her to let me know if anything I did bothered her. She agreed.

I already got two books in the mail about creating healthy and magical relationships and am reading one as we speak, but I'd appreciate any feedback on my particular case.

THANKS and sorry this message is so long! I wanted to type it really fast before she gets here!!!

[Criseyde]

Awww, Cocho.

I think that if she doesn't want to talk things out with you, it might be better to let her go. You deserve to have your concerns taken seriously and talked through. That's not an unrealistic desire. It's basic relationship maintenance.

Here's a thing about reassurance, though. Many people don't want to spend a lot of time doing it. Personally, I would be okay with it once in a while, but having to reassure someone every day or every few days would wear me out quickly. I can see why you wanted it -- because you never got any real resolution for your concerns -- but asking for reassurance basically amounts to asking somebody else to manage your feelings for you. I'm not saying it's wrong or bad to do it (I definitely have done it, and I don't think it was always wrong!), but some people are not going to be okay with the expectation that they'll reassure you whenever you want it.

I feel for you so much!! Call me if you want to talk more. <3

[Cochonette]

Thanks, dear. You are right, but I feel like there is more to the thing about reassurance. I know it's unhealthy to need reassurance, but maybe the reason I am feeling the need of it so much is more to do with the fact that we don't belong together.

She came over and we did talk. She told me that she thought the issue was that I am taking this more seriously than she. She said we were "casually dating." I asked "how casual." She said she didn't understand - it's casual because we aren't girlfriends. So I just took that to mean she definitely does not want to have a relationship.

We had a conversation that seemed more about me reassuring her than vice versa. Her agenda for meeting up with me was not so much to reassure me, I felt, but to reassure herself that I didn't need reassurance and wouldn't be "attacking" her. I tried to explain things in a way that just made it about me growing as a person and reassured her that I wasn't attacking her, but she only told me rather decidedly that she didn't know how to help me. And then she told me that she just wants to know that this is cleared up so she doesn't have it coming back to "bite [her] in the ass.... Because I surely don't need any of that in my life right now."

I mean, I know that this needing reassurance is bad. But isn't it healthy on some level? It seems to me like everyone pretty much needs reassurance if things aren't going the way they like. Am I just not being "100% responsible," or am I just dating the wrong person? Probably both, eh........

I am not sure how to feel about this "casual dating." I realize now that I was conflicted between wanting a relationship and wanting to be cool with what she calls "casual dating." I didn't think of this term myself. I just thought of us as dating, period. What does casual dating mean? That you are just spending time together and trying to get to know each other but not looking for a relationship? I guess it makes sense, but I can't reconcile how I feel right now with the word "casual."

Maybe it is just because I am clingy. I felt independent like I didn't need a woman to be happy, but once I got involved with a woman, I reverted back and started feeling like I need her and can't give her up even when it is stressing me the hell out. I absolutely know and believe I will be fine after we are apart for a while, but I don't want to deal with "a while" seeing how I am already so stressed out.

But I know plenty of people who don't seem to be particularly clingy, yet wouldn't "casually date."

I have barely dated and am already realizing that it's probably better to be single than deal with all this mess. Yeah. I think maybe I need to work on myself more first before dating again. There is no such thing as profound comfort in another person... only I can give me that.

What I need right now is just a plan for how I'm going to build myself up out of all of this and be the strongest person I can be. What she does is irrelevant to my happiness... not only can she not provide my happiness, she can't even provide a single ounce of it! Every single ounce of my happiness must begin and end with me. That's what this is making me realize. They say you must be happy first and that a relationship just adds to the happiness... I cannot see it that way anymore. I say a relationship cannot add to your happiness at all except in how it helps you see that you are the one and ONLY source of your happiness. It might appear to add to your happiness until it falls apart. Indeed, even in the best that I've had so far, I cannot say that all the pleasure was worth the suffering that ensued. It is never worth it. Pleasure is simply not happiness.

Maybe I'm exaggerating because, by this standard, no one would be happy... all happiness is conditional to some extent upon external circumstances... because no one is perfect and no one can endure just anything. But as I've said elsewhere before, it is about depending upon what is the most dependable in life...

the book I'm reading on self-coaching says that there is no such thing as security as such. There is only relative security. Happiness is relative. So we must find what is the most reliable thing in life in order to be relatively happy. What is the most reliable source of happiness? Something within that we must seek out and manifest into experience.

So I answered my own question, but your feedback is still most welcome.

[aelle]

I have hugs for you if you want them, C.

Originally Posted by Cochonette

I have barely dated and am already realizing that it's probably better to be single than deal with all this mess.

You got it. Dating should not cause you that much stress or anxiety, not unless it's temporary and you're trading it for a significant upside. Sometimes early relationships are stressful, but in my experience it's because you're very in love and full of butterflies.
It sounds like the 2 of you are not looking for the same thing at the moment. If you find the idea of "casual dating" grating, there's no need for you to try and twist your desires to fit into hers. You can also get out peacefully, and look for someone who is currently looking for the same thing from dating as you.

The cryptic blog thing would probably rub me the wrong way, too. I find it almost passive aggressive. Did she know you were reading her stuff from the start? If I had been in your shoes at that time, I think I would have expected a decoded version, especially if it could look like it's about me. I definitely don't think it's too much to ask, or that you are clingy for asking. But if having to communicate transparently on this issue rubs her the wrong way, then maybe you two are not in a place to be together in a mutually-beneficial manner at the moment.

Best of luck for the next step in your dating exploration <3

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by aelle

I have hugs for you if you want them, C.



You got it. Dating should not cause you that much stress or anxiety, not unless it's temporary and you're trading it for a significant upside. Sometimes early relationships are stressful, but in my experience it's because you're very in love and full of butterflies.
It sounds like the 2 of you are not looking for the same thing at the moment. If you find the idea of "casual dating" grating, there's no need for you to try and twist your desires to fit into hers. You can also get out peacefully, and look for someone who is currently looking for the same thing from dating as you.

The cryptic blog thing would probably rub me the wrong way, too. I find it almost passive aggressive. Did she know you were reading her stuff from the start? If I had been in your shoes at that time, I think I would have expected a decoded version, especially if it could look like it's about me. I definitely don't think it's too much to ask, or that you are clingy for asking. But if having to communicate transparently on this issue rubs her the wrong way, then maybe you two are not in a place to be together in a mutually-beneficial manner at the moment.

Best of luck for the next step in your dating exploration <3

Thanks, aelle. Your comments are very sensible and helpful.

I thought she wasn't expecting me to read her blog because it would be so weird, but when I told her I was, she told me that she wasn't surprised at all because she'd given me the link to her blog when we first met... but I never went to it till much later when the address had changed.

I think I'm just going to cut things off with her. It's so hard for me, I absolutely hate to do this, but I am so frustrated with the way that she communicates with me. I can't stand how she gets all defensive on me just for seeking a little reassurance, and when I try to reassure her, she doesn't get it. I apologize when I make false assumptions, but she doesn't apologize when she does the same. I try to see how I can be a better person in this, but she obviously is not trying to be a better person for it. Instead, she simply perceives me to be the problem and herself to be perfect. Furthermore, I don't trust her. I can't trust someone who turns on me for trying to clarify something very much related to my well-being and who denies that something bothers her and then later posts on her blog that the very same thing very much bothers her

[veragarcia]

Love puts the fun in together, the sad in apart, and the joy in a heart.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by veragarcia

Love puts the fun in together, the sad in apart, and the joy in a heart.

LOL! Thanks. It's true. I was thinking, too... that I just need to remember my 2011 New Year's Resolution: love.

Anyway, I had decided we are just friends already. I woke up this morning to read a message from her saying we should just be friends. This time she actually sounded very concerned for me and actually attempted to reassure me. Funny she couldn't do that until after we decided to end it. But she told me that a coworker I had talked to about her told her everything I told her and that it made her think she had already hurt me a lot and would continue to. Well, this is true, so what can I say?

Now I wrote up a long message back to her and telling her I had already decided we are just friends. I am afraid that I sent the message too quickly and that she will feel upset about some of the things I said. This always happens in my break-ups... I end up quickly writing a long message to her about my struggles and my fears involving her, things I was afraid to say before that had suddenly become clear. I think that if I add in a lot of apologies and tell her I know I may be wrong and such, that it will make it better to say the things I say. Then I feel confident and urgent in it and send it right away. Then I think, maybe I should have rewritten it. Maybe it was too selfish. And in the previous break-ups (not formally break-ups since we weren't in formal relationships), they would scarcely reply and were clearly unable to come to terms with my message.

So I know I am doing something wrong here. Gah. This is why it's so hard for me to communicate in the first place. I have too many things I worry about. No lover can resolve these things for me, yet I always find myself thinking that, if only I can progress in a relationship with someone, I can grow wise and mature through experience and learn not to think these things... but they never live it out with me.

She probably thinks I'm crazy now. Oh, well. I am. We'll see if this time the result is any different, but why should it be? It was only a casual thing to her anyway.

See, now I think I should have been writing to comfort her rather than out of a desire to be comforted. But every time I think about it, I can't figure out how I'd comfort her, other than to be perfect and never in need of comfort.

[RonSouther]

Aren't you really struggling just to be happy being with you?

So much energy trying to figure out where we stand with others....but where do we stand with ourselves?

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Aren't you really struggling just to be happy being with you?

So much energy trying to figure out where we stand with others....but where do we stand with ourselves?

True, true.

I realized that I have lost a considerable amount of weight in the past few weeks.. I think it's from spending all that time with her. I normally comfort myself with food, but I replaced that with cuddles. But I continue to feel the need for something to comfort me, physically. I don't know how to prevent that. I suppose just staying focused on other things would do it. 'cause being so focused on the joy of cuddling made me forget food, so if I find myself able to really focus on some other more practical, but time-consuming joy, I can forget both food and cuddling.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

True, true.

I realized that I have lost a considerable amount of weight in the past few weeks.. I think it's from spending all that time with her. I normally comfort myself with food, but I replaced that with cuddles. But I continue to feel the need for something to comfort me, physically. I don't know how to prevent that. I suppose just staying focused on other things would do it. 'cause being so focused on the joy of cuddling made me forget food, so if I find myself able to really focus on some other more practical, but time-consuming joy, I can forget both food and cuddling.

Thanks for sharing...no judgment here, ok?

Your logic thinks that you can possess love and that's why you try. Has it ever worked? Nope, everyone knows that, but no one has the clarity to let go and allow what is real to remain. If the love is strong enough, when you let go, the love stays. If not, it goes and that's good so that you don't waste your life on an illusion.

Life and love are illogical. Don't trust your mind to fix your love life. The only fix for it is to let go and to get to know yourself better. The greatest thing that you can come to see about self is your mind...how it works, why we are so confused, how that confusion steals our joy and how that puts us on this pursuit of happiness that leads to escapes like you have with food and women.

You're not working on the source of the problem, but on the symptoms. You keep creating symptoms because the source hasn't been realized. You don't know who you are. You don't love yourself. Your "love" for others is possession and not freedom. And the end result is problems on top of problems, confusion on top of confusion.

The only thing wrong with you is that you don't understand what is driving all this. And when you do, this quote will make sense....it will be alive in you...

"Letting Go"...A Beautiful Quote and The Heart of Profound-Self-Help.com

You're in the same boat as 99% of people and that make you seem normal, but we don't realize that normal is doing their version of your stuff and confused too and greedy for relief too.

There's nothing wrong with you that awareness can't fix....this stuff is like clockwork and as you read the stories of people in your boat, you will see really the same message from everyone, just their version of the symptoms.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Thanks for sharing...no judgment here, ok?

Your logic thinks that you can possess love and that's why you try. Has it ever worked? Nope, everyone knows that, but no one has the clarity to let go and allow what is real to remain. If the love is strong enough, when you let go, the love stays. If not, it goes and that's good so that you don't waste your life on an illusion.

Life and love are illogical. Don't trust your mind to fix your love life. The only fix for it is to let go and to get to know yourself better. The greatest thing that you can come to see about self is your mind...how it works, why we are so confused, how that confusion steals our joy and how that puts us on this pursuit of happiness that leads to escapes like you have with food and women.

You're not working on the source of the problem, but on the symptoms. You keep creating symptoms because the source hasn't been realized. You don't know who you are. You don't love yourself. Your "love" for others is possession and not freedom. And the end result is problems on top of problems, confusion on top of confusion.

The only thing wrong with you is that you don't understand what is driving all this. And when you do, this quote will make sense....it will be alive in you...

"Letting Go"...A Beautiful Quote and The Heart of Profound-Self-Help.com

You're in the same boat as 99% of people and that make you seem normal, but we don't realize that normal is doing their version of your stuff and confused too and greedy for relief too.

There's nothing wrong with you that awareness can't fix....this stuff is like clockwork and as you read the stories of people in your boat, you will see really the same message from everyone, just their version of the symptoms.

Yes. Well, I do love myself. And I do love her. Just not completely!!! And not enough to save this.

It's ok. Every failure is a learning experience. I know that my love will be greater the next time.

It's funny because now that it's all said and done, I want to blame myself for it. And yet, nothing could have snapped me out of it except to have explicitly ended things with her + communicated with her all the things that letting go gave me the clarity to do. We get blinded by our fears, we can't see what we already know.

I can love her more now that we have let each other go. And so it is probably for the better. Nothing is irreversible, so theoretically we can get back together later. This is good to know. In the future, if I find myself confusing myself like so, perhaps I should break it off temporarily just to gain some clarity without hurting the other person.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Yes. Well, I do love myself. And I do love her. Just not completely!!! And not enough to save this.

It's ok. Every failure is a learning experience. I know that my love will be greater the next time.

It's funny because now that it's all said and done, I want to blame myself for it. And yet, nothing could have snapped me out of it except to have explicitly ended things with her + communicated with her all the things that letting go gave me the clarity to do. We get blinded by our fears, we can't see what we already know.

I can love her more now that we have let each other go. And so it is probably for the better. Nothing is irreversible, so theoretically we can get back together later. This is good to know. In the future, if I find myself confusing myself like so, perhaps I should break it off temporarily just to gain some clarity without hurting the other person.

Sounds good!! True love will possess both of you....if you're not possessed by it, let it go and move on....life's too short to try to control it.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Sounds good!! True love will possess both of you....if you're not possessed by it, let it go and move on....life's too short to try to control it.

Yes... but today I feel differently. I feel very, very badly. I am just regretting everything. She has been totally vague with me about when she wants to talk about this in person. She has people to fall back on - other people she's been seeing - while I don't.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Yes... but today I feel differently. I feel very, very badly. I am just regretting everything. She has been totally vague with me about when she wants to talk about this in person. She has people to fall back on - other people she's been seeing - while I don't.

Which is a reminder of the real issue...that you need a crutch. That makes the other person an object to you, polluting whatever love you have.

This is a great book about just that... Online Store - Intimacy: Trusting Oneself and the Other

[Cochonette]

The fact of the matter is that she's the only friend I've ever had like that in my entire life. And now she isn't even going to want to be my friend. I don't make friends like that easily, whereas she probably does. Most people have a close friend or group of friends to turn to when their love life goes wrong, whereas I only have a collection of semi-close online friends and random people I talk to in person.

Basically, the only people I've ever felt that close to were girls I am attracted to, and those you can pretty much only have one at a time.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

The fact of the matter is that she's the only friend I've ever had like that in my entire life. And now she isn't even going to want to be my friend. I don't make friends like that easily, whereas she probably does. Most people have a close friend or group of friends to turn to when their love life goes wrong, whereas I only have a collection of semi-close online friends and random people I talk to in person.

Basically, the only people I've ever felt that close to were girls I am attracted to, and those you can pretty much only have one at a time.

I'm the same as you....introverted and wherever a relationship didn't work out for me was with an extroverted female. The introverts are where I can really get intimate but most of us have such negative self images from a life of social rejection that it's hard to be with us.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I'm the same as you....introverted and wherever a relationship didn't work out for me was with an extroverted female. The introverts are where I can really get intimate but most of us have such negative self images from a life of social rejection that it's hard to be with us.

Very interesting, haha. I never really thought of introverts as having relatively negative self-images. The girl I was dating is actually an introvert herself, but I don't think she deals with a lot of social rejection (relatively speaking)... I mean, she's the type of person who just connects easily with others... she's attracted to a lot of people and doesn't get anxious around strangers, and I don't think she ever has. Plus, she's physically gorgeous. She goes out and socializes a lot but will often be the quiet one sitting at a table.

Part of my frustration regarding her is just with life in general, really... because I am terrible at focusing, so it's easy to get lost in thought about a girl.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Part of my frustration regarding her is just with life in general, really... because I am terrible at focusing, so it's easy to get lost in thought about a girl.

I have no trouble focusing on what I'm interested in so I learned not to judge myself for not focusing on stuff I don't care about.

Girls are captivating for sure!!

[Cochonette]

Here's what I am thinking now... I'm ok with poly for the moment. What I'm realizing isn't working for me is casual dating. Dating is still too new to me for it to be casual, I think. But people like to date quite a while before or without getting into "a relationship." I just find it rather bizarre. I'd rather someone told me that they were poly and liked to date multiple people at once and committed to seeing me once a week than say that we're just casually dating, so they can go off and date other people and forget about me whenever they feel like it without any warning, and then defensively accuse me of taking things too seriously if I start to get attached.

I think it's partly fear of labels and partly selfishness. They are afraid of the "girlfriends" or "in a relationship" label because they don't want you to be their primary commitment, or aren't sure if they do. They want to be able to keep telling people they're single, yet date you as if you're in a full-on relationship. The reality is that these labels are just confusing due to our dominantly monogamous culture. All I want is at least a small commitment so I know that when the person decides to move on or spend less time with me, they have to tell me and don't accuse me of being possessive... so that I know I can at least expect this much. They don't have to call me their girlfriend or say that we're in a relationship. They don't have to use those labels. They can call themselves single for all I care, but I want that commitment to lean on! Primarily this is about a commitment to communication when things change between us. What is so strange about that?

And then I think it's also selfish because they want to be able to leave you at any moment without having to have a conversation about it. The way I see it, if we've been spending all our time together for months, having sex, etc., that's worthy of some type of commitment, even if it's a small one.

Like the girl I was dating said, "This isn't a one night stand. I'm not ♥♥♥♥ing you and leaving." I mean, exactly! This isn't No Strings Attached, so why are we treating it like it is?

[RonSouther]

Cocho,

The ONLY real commitment is found in true love. It's automatic.

You're worried about being labelled "possessive" and your entire message was about partially possessing someone enough to get some amount of happiness of the other.

Your self-absorption is normal for anyone in a state of confusion in life, but is also poison for love because it drives you to possessiveness.

First, you need to find out who you are...only then will your love for another be pure love and not this negotiation attitude that drives girls away.

First your mental wholeness. And then you will attract women like flies on honey. With your neediness, a girl is going to feel smothered by you and not loved. And you can't merely repress your neediness either. You have to grow. How? For me it's been to come to see what my mind is, how it works, how it is exploited and how it is confused, robbing me of joy for life.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Cocho,

The ONLY real commitment is found in true love. It's automatic.

You're worried about being labelled "possessive" and your entire message was about partially possessing someone enough to get some amount of happiness of the other.

Your self-absorption is normal for anyone in a state of confusion in life, but is also poison for love because it drives you to possessiveness.

First, you need to find out who you are...only then will your love for another be pure love and not this negotiation attitude that drives girls away.

First your mental wholeness. And then you will attract women like flies on honey. With your neediness, a girl is going to feel smothered by you and not loved. And you can't merely repress your neediness either. You have to grow. How? For me it's been to come to see what my mind is, how it works, how it is exploited and how it is confused, robbing me of joy for life.

It's not about possessing someone, dude. In fact, it's the opposite. It's about using a tool (commitment) to NOT be possessive of someone. I think it's natural to get attached. And it's natural to seek commitment. The girls I'm attracted to get attached, too. In fact, I read on her blog where she said things such as "that moment when jealousy and doubt creep in to attack your happiness" and "I know it's selfish, but I want her all to myself"... AND she asked me informally at one point to let her know if I was planning on ending our cuddle sessions. The only difference with what I want is that it's slightly more formal of a request. As she said, she's selfish, too. And actually, I think it's also selfish in that she would like to accuse me defensively of being possessive only when she has become relatively disinterested, but meanwhile when she is feeling more attached, she tells me how empty her bed is without me in it, that I should be a "permanent fixture" in her bed, and to please let her know if I was planning on ending cuddle sessions. It's a tad hypocritical.

Even the most self-disciplined people I know cry and feel anguished when someone breaks up with them. Especially when they first start dating. I think part of not getting too attached will come naturally with experience and volume of social connections. But right now, this is what I would like, if it's possible. If not, I will do my best with what I've got, but it will be harder that way.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

It's not about possessing someone, dude. In fact, it's the opposite. It's about using a tool (commitment) to NOT be possessive of someone. I think it's natural to get attached. And it's natural to seek commitment. The girls I'm attracted to get attached, too. In fact, I read on her blog where she said things such as "that moment when jealousy and doubt creep in to attack your happiness" and "I know it's selfish, but I want her all to myself"... AND she asked me informally at one point to let her know if I was planning on ending our cuddle sessions. The only difference with what I want is that it's slightly more formal of a request. As she said, she's selfish, too. And actually, I think it's also selfish in that she would like to accuse me defensively of being possessive only when she has become relatively disinterested, but meanwhile when she is feeling more attached, she tells me how empty her bed is without me in it, that I should be a "permanent fixture" in her bed, and to please let her know if I was planning on ending cuddle sessions. It's a tad hypocritical.

Even the most self-disciplined people I know cry and feel anguished when someone breaks up with them. Especially when they first start dating. I think part of not getting too attached will come naturally with experience and volume of social connections. But right now, this is what I would like, if it's possible. If not, I will do my best with what I've got, but it will be harder that way.

The whole idea of making a commitment is so "mental", so "logical". If she makes a commitment, then you are giving the green light to possess but all of this is mental.

You're not allowing life to be as it is. You're trying to control life and what do you get from it? Confusion, anxiety, anguish.

The mouth can speak for the heart or can speak for the it's own greed. It can make the false sound like truth. The mind can speak promises that the heart can't keep.

The only commitment is true love. Love possesses and that is awesome. When the mind possessing, love is destroyed.

You don't know it, but you're not after love....you're after a woman to trigger in you what you haven't been able to do for yourself. You don't know how to be happy alone, but you've felt happy with a woman. She isn't your happiness, but a trigger for your mind to rest and that is happiness. You don't know this yet and you turn women into objects because of it.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The whole idea of making a commitment is so "mental", so "logical". If she makes a commitment, then you are giving the green light to possess but all of this is mental.

You're not allowing life to be as it is. You're trying to control life and what do you get from it? Confusion, anxiety, anguish.

The mouth can speak for the heart or can speak for the it's own greed. It can make the false sound like truth. The mind can speak promises that the heart can't keep.

The only commitment is true love. Love possesses and that is awesome. When the mind possessing, love is destroyed.

You don't know it, but you're not after love....you're after a woman to trigger in you what you haven't been able to do for yourself. You don't know how to be happy alone, but you've felt happy with a woman. She isn't your happiness, but a trigger for your mind to rest and that is happiness. You don't know this yet and you turn women into objects because of it.

Maybe you're right, ALTHOUGH I'm pretty sure that happiness is love. It's hard to seek happiness without seeking love because love is the seeking of happiness (I am not making this up - this is how Buddhism describes love, and I am Buddhist). You are again telling me that I'm not loving. And there's truth in what you say, but I don't like the absolute quality of your statements on love because I don't see love as absolute in the way that you mean it. I have yet to meet anyone who was absolutely loving, and I've certainly met people who are happy with themselves and their lives who still get very upset when someone breaks up with them.

Yes, I realize it is comfort that I am seeking more than to love. I will think on it. I have never fully trusted my ability to be "possessed" by love, as you say. Love has, rather, been a thing I have learned gradually - even when I have given it my all, on the whole it always has been and will continue to be a gradual learning. There was one time in my life that I was in love in a detached way, because I knew it wasn't mutual at all, but she did love me... and the love was very deep, although oddly enough I don't feel it strongly now that I'm not in love with her. She taught me how to love and, in doing so, saved my life. I can't say I became happy via this love, but I was closer to happiness, or more importantly, farther from despair.

But right now I am not enjoying my life much at all outside of sexual relationships. I really can't stand it. And I love myself, but I hate my life.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Maybe you're right, ALTHOUGH I'm pretty sure that happiness is love. It's hard to seek happiness without seeking love because love is the seeking of happiness (I am not making this up - this is how Buddhism describes love, and I am Buddhist). You are again telling me that I'm not loving. And there's truth in what you say, but I don't like the absolute quality of your statements on love because I don't see love as absolute in the way that you mean it. I have yet to meet anyone who was absolutely loving, and I've certainly met people who are happy with themselves and their lives who still get very upset when someone breaks up with them.

Seeking love to be happy is not love at all. It's greed. True love is an unconditional gift of self, not a desire to receive. If you do receive love, great!! That's awesome but you are describing attachment which is mental and not love at all.

And proof is that you are confused and trying to figure out how to negotiate "love" and it's not working.

Buddhism is not Buddha, btw. It's another imitation of the real deal. Organized religions are mental, even buddhism. They are about living in ideas and trying to shape life to those ideas. Again, the proof is in the results you're getting.

You won't see pure love except in a buddha.

Yes, I realize it is comfort that I am seeking more than to love. I will think on it. I have never fully trusted my ability to be "possessed" by love, as you say.

You won't be possessed by love until you are with the right person for you. You can't decide to be possessed...that's mental again, not existential. When it's there, it holds you hostage and it's amazing. No decision possible. You won't be able to let it go. It feels like one soul is sharing two bodies.

There was one time in my life that I was in love in a detached way, because I knew it wasn't mutual at all, but she did love me... and the love was very deep, although oddly enough I don't feel it strongly now that I'm not in love with her. She taught me how to love and, in doing so, saved my life. I can't say I became happy via this love, but I was closer to happiness, or more importantly, farther from despair.

Good! Now move on...Something was missing or she would've stayed. And what is missing is not under anyone's control. It's related to how strong the natural match is...the harmony.

But right now I am not enjoying my life much at all outside of sexual relationships. I really can't stand it. And I love myself, but I hate my life.

Don't know how this is possible. Love doesn't know what hate it...Just like the light doesn't know what darkeness is.

[Cochonette]

Okay, now I pretty much didn't agree with anything in your last post. You go on and on about purity, and I don't believe in it. Also, this tells me you know don't know that much about Buddhism. Or Buddha. You are now talking about how "light" and "dark" are completely pure from one another, but the Buddha teaches us to find the light in the darkness and this very central concept of nonduality.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Okay, now I pretty much didn't agree with anything in your last post.

I know you don't. There is a paradox here....opposite day...you're on one side of the paradox trying to live out ideas. I'm on the other side of the paradox trying to say that you don't control life.

Your logic hasn't failed you bad enough for you to stop trusting it. Test logic and learn from life, but you're wasting your life trying to organize love.

Love is a fresh breeze and you're trying to trap it by closing the windows to keep it from escaping.

Bhuddism is an idea, not a reality.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I know you don't. There is a paradox here....opposite day...you're on one side of the paradox trying to live out ideas. I'm on the other side of the paradox trying to say that you don't control life.

Your logic hasn't failed you bad enough for you to stop trusting it. Test logic and learn from life, but you're wasting your life trying to organize love.

Love is a fresh breeze and you're trying to trap it by closing the windows to keep it from escaping.

Bhuddism is an idea, not a reality.

All right, my eyes are glazing over at your posts now. I find them to be pretty arrogant. Don't expect me to read more than a sentence or two of further posts written in this manner.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

All right, my eyes are glazing over at your posts now. I find them to be pretty arrogant. Don't expect me to read more than a sentence or two of further posts written in this manner.

I submit to your wishes....good day!

[Cochonette]

So this dating anxiety has been going on for some weeks now, and I had ordered several books on healthy relationships to deal with it. 2-3 days ago, a book came in called "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay." I've been reading it, and there's a lot of interesting stuff in there, though a lot of it that I thought would help me wasn't super helpful in clarifying anything.

But I am starting to feel better now. I have realized that this girl exhibits the classic patterns shown by the previous people I had break-up situations with. That is, her attitude is basically like, "I don't change. You don't change. If you have a problem, then let's end it. / I do not and cannot care enough to help you."

Yep. This has always stressed me the hell out, and I've just found myself practically begging them to give a ♥♥♥♥ or to forgive me. And I just have realized that this doesn't WORK. Not with people like this. They do not and cannot give a ♥♥♥♥.

So I think I'm going to say to her something like this:

"I am sorry for not trusting you. I have changed my mind. I trust you, and I can do this, if you are willing to take that risk.

I have worried that you're not the type of person to change her mind, much less change for another person. Even though I am. I cried many tears over it.

But I've realized something. If you don't want me, then you don't deserve me. I leave the door open to you, but it's up to you to decide whether or not you are worthy of me."

Hehe. Maybe not EXACTLY like that, but it felt good writing that.

I am just saying, I think that's the kind of game these girls have been playing on me. It's not that I didn't want them, but insert some other quality there, "If you don't.... then you aren't worthy of me."

And I let that determine my self-worth and felt worthless when they treated me like that. ♥♥♥♥ it. I am going to play her own game. I sure as hell am worthy!!! She just doesn't know it!

You know what!!! This totally reminds me of a two-person scene I did this semester that she came and watched me perform. But I also practiced it with her as my partner in her bedroom... it is about this servant woman who seduces an upper class soldier by telling him he isn't worthy of her because if she were a queen, she'd dare to stoop to his level, but he wouldn't dare to stoop to her level now. It's the best scene in the whole play (Arms and the Man). When I did this with her in her bedroom, she told me she was thoroughly seduced. that's the attitude it takes!!!!!!!

[Cochonette]

OK, at first I wasn't embracing this new perspective entirely because I still felt really afraid of not having her. But I honestly could not even help myself - this shift just happened kind of on its own... I can't prevent an incoming realization.

Now I feel great!!! It's truly stunning how quickly and beautifully I have shifted from a perspective of my own lack of worthiness to total self-empowerment!!!!!!!