Codependent Mum, Dad dead in the head

[wystan]

After a series of conversations with my mother, half of which were me telling her in a non-judgemental way why I grew up sad and am only just sorted out at age 30 and the other half were her blowing up in my face based on inferred 'belittlings' of her character, I have realised she is quite severely codependent.

This is not news - she is an untrained nurse who even lacks the self-respect to train! - and I have always called her a martyr. My dad is silent and distant and has professed to not having emotions and not wanting to have them.

But I have been through therapy, drink problems and now have found an answer in the form of meditation and mindfulness. And I'm not scared of my parents any more. I am wondering if anyone has ever had any success in dealing with this kind of issue with their parents, whether it's (on my part) codependent to try and control them and should be quashed, or had any other comments.

I want a real relationship with them that involves discussing things really and not just politeley, I want my mum to realise she's not happy and get happier and prepare for life when my dad dies, which might be in the next fifteen years. I want adults for parents. Is this my problem or theirs?

I should point out they have been through marriage guidance and then ceased therapy because they had 'had enough.' My mum part trained as a counsellor and now works for the Samaritans (a helpline for suicidal and depressive people) and yet regards this kind of chat as: "too deep," "psychobabble," and wants to know "why I we can't just love each other." Basically, it's a power struggle about her way of doing things (which is her controlling the family) and my way which is basically chaotic from her perspective. She has pulled some pretty alarming - almost comically so - blow up anger stuff on me - such as protecting me from the 'anger' of my father (oh wait, did he wake up when I wasn't watching?) and the 'shame' of not being able to tell her friends how I am 'belittling' her (after asking her not to assume that I would call my sister because I found it raised my hackles) because her friends (whom I don't particularly like, I should point out) think I am a nice person. I talked her down from this craziness (if you knew her, you'd gasp) but during that got accused of wanting not to know her, of her wanting to know if she shouldn't know me, of her saying that it's not surprising that she 'doesn't want anything to do with me.' and then calling me an alien.

And yet a text to her from a family gathering last night elicited response: "glad you are having happy time. always fond of x + y (attendees), luv m & d"

So I play nice, I get nice. BUt she's genuinely upset at all of this. Just I think (well, I know) that it is this kind of rage and pain that she should be feeling before she can take care of herself. I did it in half her years. Can't she?

Thanks

Michael

[Lychee]

Anyone can change if they really want to, but it seems your mother doesn't. For most people, after they reach a certain age, it is difficult to change their beliefs. Perhaps they use the excuse that "It's always worked for me" or "I'm too old to change" or "I don't want to change." I'm not saying that it is difficult to change beliefs when people get old - but many people hold this idea and remain steadfast to it. It probably is easier for your mom to remain the martyr (if that really is the case) than it is to take responsibility.

But after a while, you realize that you can fight with them or you can choose to accept their decision not to change. The former might work, but with your previous attempts to change her mind nothing was accomplished, right? She wouldn't be angry as you say she is now if it worked. I know that you feel that by changing herself she will enjoy her life more and raise herself up to a better position, but she doesn't want to do that. It hurts to see someone you love choose this path, but it is better to look past it and choose to work through the relationship despite this obstacle. You are both different people with different mentalities.

If you feel she is controlling the family, do not give your power over to her. If she does do some immature things, let her know that you believe those acts are disrespectful. Help her realize that what she is doing is also playing part in the way the relationship is going. If she fails to understand that and continues to behave in the way she does, what other choice do you have but to limit your time with her?

[wystan]

thanks - on the one hand you say, 'don't bother,' on the other you say, 'let her know these acts are xy and z.' Well, doing this is exactly what made her fly off the handle the last time! these folks are complex, that's for sure! For example she (like my sister) exploded when I suggested they might be paranoid (ie that I would want to hurt them) but also both underline the fact that they are 'fragile' and must be treated carefully. Catch 22, innit?

I think being honest about my own struggles and triumphs might be the way. I think it' sbest to tell people abou tyou for them to open up. If not, I will just have to say, 'well, that's me - how's about you?'

Also, she's new to email, so that was prolly my first mistake. But we live a couple hours apart. That's far over here (!)

Michael

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by wystan

thanks - on the one hand you say, 'don't bother,' on the other you say, 'let her know these acts are xy and z.' Well, doing this is exactly what made her fly off the handle the last time! these folks are complex, that's for sure! For example she (like my sister) exploded when I suggested they might be paranoid (ie that I would want to hurt them) but also both underline the fact that they are 'fragile' and must be treated carefully. Catch 22, innit?

I think being honest about my own struggles and triumphs might be the way. I think it' sbest to tell people abou tyou for them to open up. If not, I will just have to say, 'well, that's me - how's about you?'

Also, she's new to email, so that was prolly my first mistake. But we live a couple hours apart. That's far over here (!)

Michael

When I say that you should accept her for who she is, that doesn't mean that you should let her disrespect you or be mean to you without just cause. If you let her know about how you feel and she still acted in that way, then you just have to let it go. What more can you do? Talking to her about such matters results in friction and argument. If her behavior is really that outrageous, accept that she won't change and alter your own behavior to match that.

It may be a catch 22, one we might not understand until we are older.

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by wystan

So I play nice, I get nice. BUt she's genuinely upset at all of this. Just I think (well, I know) that it is this kind of rage and pain that she should be feeling before she can take care of herself. I did it in half her years. Can't she?

Certainly she can. If that's what she wants to do.

There is a belief that says people need to hear about their faults in order to recognize them and then change them. That may be true, once. And it may be true if the feedback is solicited. But my results (and apparently yours) show that is not always true when the advice is unsolicited or in perpetuity. (I suspect it's not even almost true in those cases.) I would guess that your mom has a pretty good grip on your critical thoughts about her. Expressing them to her has not worked to get you what you want in your relationship. Try this different approach and see where it gets you.

If you want to have a pleasant (possibly wonderful) relationship with her, try this technique. It has worked wonders for me in relation to people I care deeply about but didn't see eye to eye with.

First, make a list of all the things you really love and value about your mom. Avoid words like "but" or "except", and only put the good stuff on this list. It can be anything positive. Maybe she's a good cook. Or she has a great laugh. Or she's kind to animals. List every good thing you can think of.

Then, from this point forward, focus all of your attention on the things in this list, and nothing else. If you catch yourself thinking a critical thought about her (and you very likely will) just redirect your mind to the list. Make a game of adding to your list when you see or talk to her. Notice when she does something on the list, and look for things to add to it. Feel free to compliment her frequently. Refrain from saying anything critical to her when you speak. Trust that this is not your job.

This will do two, very possibly three things. First, it will improve the sorts of reactions you get from her. (You said it yourself: "...I play nice, I get nice.") Second, it will improve how you feel with her, because you will be focusing all of your energies upon those things that you love. As time goes by, you will see less and less of the negative, and more of the positive. The third possible consequence of this exercise is a change in her behavior. This cannot be guaranteed because she can do what she wants. However, if there is a part of her that really wants to get better, bathing her in love and appreciation and encouragement is how you can best help her to attain that.

Oh, and you can use this technique on your dad as well!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by wystan

Is this my problem or theirs?

Yours.

You began your email by mentioning how non-judgemental you have been, but your entire post reeks of heavy-duty Judgement of your parents. Perhaps you believe that that's not what you've expressed to them -- it's just what you're telling us here privately -- so it shouldn't be a factor in your relationship. But it comes through pretty strongly that Judgement is what you're being with mum & dad (and I would bet elsewhere in your life, as well.) No mystery as to why they'd be resistant and defensive and in denial. That's how people react when they feel oppressed.

There's something else you could be that would interrupt this long-held pattern, if you're willing to practice letting go of what you're so tightly clutching. And if you keep on doing what you've been doing, you'll keep on getting what you've gotten. It's your choice.

[wystan]

whilst I appreciate at least some of the responses I'm getting here - perhaps I am too stupid to hear what others are saying - I wonder if anyone responding actually knows what I am talking about. I don't really get the feeling that you know what it is like to have a mother who is so wrapped up in herself and bullying her husband into being present, that she is not there for her children.

I just last night recalled a story that my mum told me and my dad last month about how (in that non-judgemental email about childhood pain) I had said that I had felt that no one was around to help with homework. She replied "oh, yes, your father was too there sometimes. I remember it was the biggest row we had. I wanted a 'cuddle' and he stayed up to help you with your homework. How we rowed!" That struck me as just embarassing last month. Now thinking about it, I realise that she was telling me how she was competing with my dad's affections.

I wonder if it's a certain type of person who posts on this forum who DOESN'T have similar issues to mine or whether what I've written actually chimes with anyone.

I didn't write this post in absolute ignorance of the pros and cons or subjective viewpoints; but I defy anyone to be 'non-judgemental' about an upbringing that they are still sorting out in their head or 'let go' of a parent who treats you like you are some elderly maiden aunt on a trip for tea. We are able (in anonymous cyberspace) to have this kind of open conversation. Why do you consider me judgemental for wanting to get at least a little bit of open book action with my mother?

Or am I being collosally stupid?

Thanks

Michael

[Angela]

Michael, it looks like I've triggered a defensive feeling in you, just like what I was talking about doing -- so I guess I've mirrored exactly the thing I was talking about! I'm sorry about that.

You're 30 years old, right? So, would you not agree that you don't need parenting from these two so much as you would like to have a great relationship among adults? Or am I wrong, and you feel longing for mothering or fathering?

If it's an adult relationship you're striving for, I think it would behoove you to take 100% responsibility for the relationship. In your original post, it appears to me that you put at least half (probably more) of the responsibility for creating your relationship onto mum & dad. You're welcome to do that, of course; I certainly didn't mean to make you feel wrong or stupid about it! But: is that working? What I meant to point out to you is that you have a habitual way of being with your parents (and yes, it sounds like it involves judging them. it also sounds like you do a lot of judging of yourself!) On the contrary, I think you're very intelligent and courageous for opening yourself up to alternate viewpoints here on this forum.

Can you see where you are free to let go of something regarding your parents (you don't have to let go of your actual parents!) and try on another way of being? Yes, it would involve taking 100% responsibility for your life, your satisfaction, and your fulfillment, and that is a huge thing to take on. Are you willing to do that, or do you want to go on with the feeling that all or most of the power is outside of yourself?

Best wishes and lots of love,
angela

[wystan]

thanks angela.

You are right that this post has brought up some ... interesting feelings within me. The problem is that I have felt like the grown up for some long time. For whatever reason, my parents are simple and behave like they are not particularly smart. They have no self-awareness. However, I am really very smart - with all the good and the bad that entails - and am full of self-awareness. This is a good thing.

For a long time things have been 'ok' with my parents, as I suggest - the whole maiden aunt at tea thing - and it's all been very polite. What I perhaps haven't gotten across so well is the breakthrough I am trying to achieve in talking to my parents openly. My mum fears me - all these things in the first post I mentioned - and they are all things that have ONLY really happened when I try and talk about my own needs. I could go back to 'normal' and we would have a pleasant enough time. But something tells me that is not enough. I don't want my parents to say 'sorry' to me. I don't really want them to change. But I can't - although that would be fine (in the Southern sense of the word - figure out how to produce this adult relationship which everyone seems keen to bring about. Perhaps a part of my subconcious is hoping that, if we .... a thought occurs I NEVER REBELLED! ... had some of those feelings out in the open that are so well hidden by my parents, then I would feel more affectionately towards them; I would feel affectionate. If I see my mum in my mind's eye now, I don't really feel like I want to hug her; I'm not sure I could even love her at present. And this is odd, because she is a sweet person. I think there are a bunch of issues in my past that would take too long to go into here, that are probably at the root cause. I chose to go to boarding school, but when I got there, I was very unhappy and ran away. They dragged me back there one end-of-half-term. Also, the happy go lucky person that my mother is today is quite different from the depressed, argumentative, poverty-stricken and faced with her husband's bankruptcy and house repossession lady that brought me up. We grew up poor, no doubt about it. I have always felt that something lurked in my past regarding some kind of cruelty from my mother. I remember at a very young age being significantly depressed when she returned to my grandmother, her mother's house, to pick me up after a weekend. I can still remember the gloom that dawned within me. That's odd, no? I always dream about my grandmother's house (from where I was dragged that time, aged eleven, and where I spent so many a happy weekend) whereas I never dream of my family home, which was old (18th century) small and ill-considered in layout, similarly to how i figure my care from my parents was. They are slapdash. THey don't know HOW to care for stuff - themselves, careers, future - and it has taken me such a long time to learn how to do all this stuff to realise my fairly obviously considerable potential. An alternative me (I am deputy editor on a successful magazine) would have temped worked in a bookshop bummed around lived off dole ... you name it. So I am angry, relieved, worried, concerned ... and all at two of the most benign and kindest (when not riled) people in the world. Go figure! I also have a streaming cold.

Thanks for your time.

love

Michael x

[wystan]

i guess maybe I wonder what the 'heavy duty judgement' of my parents is, too. I guess it's sometimes hard to see ...

Michael x

[Angela]

Originally Posted by wystan

i guess maybe I wonder what the 'heavy duty judgement' of my parents is, too. I guess it's sometimes hard to see ...

Michael x

Michael, I've deleted out the stuff that didn't sound like judgment to me, and here's what's left, so you can see it from an outsider's perspective:


I have realised she is quite severely codependent.

she... even lacks the self-respect to train!

I have always called her a martyr.

My dad is silent and distant

I want my mum to realise she's not happy

it's a power struggle about her way of doing things (which is her controlling the family)

I talked her down from this craziness (if you knew her, you'd gasp)

Just I think (well, I know) that it is this kind of rage and pain that she should be feeling before she can take care of herself. I did it in half her years. Can't she?

[wystan]

you have certainly made me think that I am being harsh on her / them / the whole world / me. I just wonder what to replace all this judging WITH.

And how do I go forward with my parents now. Do I just put up with the 'old way'?

[Angela]

Well, I think the first step is to acknowledge what you've been being and to take responsibility for it. Can you see for yourself how being judgemental has been a self-perpetuating action? You judge, then your parents/the whole world/yourself reacts, and then you judge the reaction, which creates more reaction, and so on?

Once you're really alert to that trap you set for yourself, you are free to either: a) keep doing it; or b) try something else. It's looking at the trap square in the face that gives you freedom to release yourself from that trap and act powerfully.

When you've taken a good look, and you're ready, start speculating: what's a way of being that might work better than being judgement. That way of being is something that makes you feel good, and something that inspires you. You don't have to commit to a particular way of being, just speculate, and see what comes up.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by wystan

whilst I appreciate at least some of the responses I'm getting here - perhaps I am too stupid to hear what others are saying - I wonder if anyone responding actually knows what I am talking about. I don't really get the feeling that you know what it is like to have a mother who is so wrapped up in herself and bullying her husband into being present, that she is not there for her children.

Hi Michael,

There are lots of people who lack experiences like this and so end up giving advice that seems to indicate that they don't understand, especially if they have predominantly positive family experiences. I also think that they don't understand.

I have had very difficult parents and not a good family life or upbringing. I don't have contact with my father anymore (since a year). My brother, who is very different from me, maintains contact with my father, but it seems to be falling apart (again). My brother tirelessly tries to discuss or debate or argue my dad's behavior with my dad, and I can tell you that for decades they have been going in circles. There was a 3-year period where my brother and my dad had no contact at all. A new period of silence between them may be ushering in.

Anyway, you should know that I am not a stranger to what you are trying to do with your mother, even if the behaviors and situations are not perfectly identical. There are two things:

1. As I have witnessed my brother's tireless efforts and arguments with my dad over the decades, I still marvel that he persists in trying to get my dad to see the error of his ways. (It's ironic to note that my brother and my dad are really alike too - though my brother lacks one extra very damaging (to others) behavior that my dad has.) I told my brother I don't know why he continues. They are like broken records. Consider that in your situation with your mother.

2. This is what I really want to say. Take a new perspective on your relationships. Read this blog entry by Steve and try it out with your mother. Maybe read some more about this approach.

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...relationships/

I very much like this, because it gives you something to do without the other person's accord. It gives you control. If you can learn how or understand how to do it, I think it would be so good to try it out. You could learn more about the principles behind it by reading and listening more to some things on this website.

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by wystan

I wonder if anyone responding actually knows what I am talking about. I don't really get the feeling that you know what it is like to have a mother who is so wrapped up in herself and bullying her husband into being present, that she is not there for her children.

For my part, let me just say that I am intimately familiar with dysfunction in family. I choose to put my focus elsewhere, so I'll not go into any details about that.

For years (and years) I spent time and a whole lot of money talking to people about my problems. Never once did they shrink under scrutiny as psychologists said they would. They just got bigger and bigger. (And please believe me when I say they were BIG to begin with.)

What worked for me was to realize that I had no control over other people. I only had control over myself. I changed my focus, using a similar exercise as outlined in my above post, and came to a place where people now think I have an ideal family situation.

Well, in fact, I do have an ideal family situation now.

That's not to say that everyone in my family acts just as I would have them act. But I'm happy and content and I love them all dearly just as they are. That makes all the difference in the world.

I wish you the best.

[wystan]

I have absolutely no idea who Steve Pavlina is or what his angle is. It's not giving me the creeps, so that's a good thing. I will check it out, I guess. Is he / this forum a CBT practitioner or something?

Erm, I guess not controlling (realising inability to control) is obviously a good thing from any standpoint. Certainly, it fits with: buddhism that I am kinda into and, of course, takes a stand against the codependency that I have railed against.

I am not sure whether people on this forum can see any pattern in my judgements outlined above and what they say about me or whether they see any profit in doing so.

My problems aren't particularly big, Itsy. I feel for you that yours were. I have probably made most of my own for me. I was cared for in a careless fashion, my mum was great at putting food on the table, we got away (mostly to wet bits of France, but, hey!) I had wonderful grandparents and something for Xmas and birthday if not exactly what I wanted. School was miserable and I don't think I was readied for the harshness of the world around me, but now, through necessity, I know far more about it than most other people seem to. They might as well be living on Neptune for all they could summate about this incredible planet.

Thanks for your help. I just spoke to my boyfriend about this forum and he, quietly, so as not to 'get me going,' I imagine said, 'yes, you are harsh and judgemental of your mother.' So I think it's been useful. Keep it coming of course!

Michael x

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by wystan

I have absolutely no idea who Steve Pavlina is or what his angle is. It's not giving me the creeps, so that's a good thing. I will check it out, I guess. Is he / this forum a CBT practitioner or something?

In that case, welcome to his website . I don't know what CBT is, but he is too multi-faceted and "mentally flexible" to label as a practitioner of one thing or another.

Like Injoy, I have tried therapy and found it useless, and it sounds like maybe your situation isn't as serious as at least mine had been, so you may not need to consider therapy, but at least I am nearly 100% certain that it would be more productive for you to try a different approach. It might save you years of time and frustration which would result from continuing with a method that helps neither you nor your mother.

I found this website in January and from reading on it, I got more useful information for all life issues than I got in x years of therapy and psycho-analyzing myself. It's just a question of figuring out how to implement what you read here properly so you get results...but before ever trying, most people get tripped up on just accepting the information and rather argue or debate about it on the website than use it, so if you get caught up in that, it won't be of use for your situation, but it would provide you with a distraction from your problems.

Originally Posted by wystan

I am not sure whether people on this forum can see any pattern in my judgements outlined above and what they say about me or whether they see any profit in doing so.

I'm sure there are patterns there to be seen, but at least for me, would take more careful reflection than I have time to do. If you want to take a shortcut to a solution, try reading up on this website. I am trying what is described in that article I linked to, which I had read about before I saw that. I don't know if it is helping the other person in question, as we don't have regular contact, but it is helping me. That already makes it better than therapy.

Originally Posted by wystan

Thanks for your help. I just spoke to my boyfriend about this forum and he, quietly, so as not to 'get me going,' I imagine said, 'yes, you are harsh and judgemental of your mother.'

That is normal, though, because she is your mother and not his. I don't think you should spend any time feeling bad about that or that it is wrong, but what you should do is work on it in yourself, which is easy to do in the way described in the blog I linked to. Another reference is this:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...-no-out-there/

It's a Hawaiian method called "ho'oponopono" and I actually got the main part of my understanding how to do it from this site Self Identity through Ho`oponopono

It is based on the idea, like in Buddhism, that there is only one consciousness, and, logically, therefore, when you heal something in yourself, or you find peace with resistances within yourself, the situation or person in which that resistance appears will also improve. I am new at it and it takes discipline to remember to do it and then to do it, but after all these years, I can say it is the best thing I have found for dealing with all issues. It's just hard to describe to another person how to do it, because it is a very internal experience and I think if you are doing it right, you can feel a release in yourself and acceptance and peace coming in regarding issues around the relationship and the person in question.

[wystan]

I am not sure Buddha had any ideas about trancendence and mystical consciousness. He says things are connected - the table and the floor are interconnected as is the carpenter, the tree, the candle on the table, etc. And if we are happy we might make others happier. But I think he sat under his tree alone and for himself as we all can whether or not we believe we can change things without touching them. He did, however, forsee that his philosophy would be misinterpreted within a thousand years. New to it, though.

Actually, it is interesting to look at Pavlina's interpretations of projection, because if we use mindfulness to look closely at how we are feeling and to take care of ourselves in the most direct way, then we are doing exactly what he suggests. I feel uncared for by my boyfriend sometimes. It makes me sad. I smoke (tryin' ta stop) but it doesn't make me sad that I am not caring for myself. It's easy to see where my mental confusion comes. If I apply my bf's not caring to my own not caring, I can see that I am saddened that I treat myself badly. If I were meditating properly, I would be paying attention to these feelings, possibly. Work in progress this one, but I think you can see where I am going with it.

CBT is understanding your behaviour, quite simply, and how it affects others and how you might be digging your own holes. It's quite different from the 'tell me about your mother' therapy of Freud. Traditional therapy is useful because it does cause you to confront full on the rage and pain that you have suppressed and actually feel it - to listen to your body rather than have it stick its fingers in its ears. I believe emotion is a force within us that can be let out if we look closely enough at it - face it enough. I know cos I have done just that through meditation. If you stick with that emotion, as therapists suggest, then you will lessen its force. Why? Because the worse has happened and because it's unleashed.

So these are some of my beliefs.

[wystan]

PS I have found therapy useful. It is a bit harsh to dismiss it, especially as - as I'm sure Mr Pavlina would agree - a lot of therapists and theorists of the mind have done a lot of the heavy lifting in allowing him to present his rather nimble, fleet and pragmatic theories of life that he does on the web site.

CBT says a lot of the same things. NLP practicioners tend to base some of their stuff in it. The mind can be retrained in many different ways, I guess.