Codependent Mum, Dad dead in the head

[wystan]

After a series of conversations with my mother, half of which were me telling her in a non-judgemental way why I grew up sad and am only just sorted out at age 30 and the other half were her blowing up in my face based on inferred 'belittlings' of her character, I have realised she is quite severely codependent.

This is not news - she is an untrained nurse who even lacks the self-respect to train! - and I have always called her a martyr. My dad is silent and distant and has professed to not having emotions and not wanting to have them.

But I have been through therapy, drink problems and now have found an answer in the form of meditation and mindfulness. And I'm not scared of my parents any more. I am wondering if anyone has ever had any success in dealing with this kind of issue with their parents, whether it's (on my part) codependent to try and control them and should be quashed, or had any other comments.

I want a real relationship with them that involves discussing things really and not just politeley, I want my mum to realise she's not happy and get happier and prepare for life when my dad dies, which might be in the next fifteen years. I want adults for parents. Is this my problem or theirs?

I should point out they have been through marriage guidance and then ceased therapy because they had 'had enough.' My mum part trained as a counsellor and now works for the Samaritans (a helpline for suicidal and depressive people) and yet regards this kind of chat as: "too deep," "psychobabble," and wants to know "why I we can't just love each other." Basically, it's a power struggle about her way of doing things (which is her controlling the family) and my way which is basically chaotic from her perspective. She has pulled some pretty alarming - almost comically so - blow up anger stuff on me - such as protecting me from the 'anger' of my father (oh wait, did he wake up when I wasn't watching?) and the 'shame' of not being able to tell her friends how I am 'belittling' her (after asking her not to assume that I would call my sister because I found it raised my hackles) because her friends (whom I don't particularly like, I should point out) think I am a nice person. I talked her down from this craziness (if you knew her, you'd gasp) but during that got accused of wanting not to know her, of her wanting to know if she shouldn't know me, of her saying that it's not surprising that she 'doesn't want anything to do with me.' and then calling me an alien.

And yet a text to her from a family gathering last night elicited response: "glad you are having happy time. always fond of x + y (attendees), luv m & d"

So I play nice, I get nice. BUt she's genuinely upset at all of this. Just I think (well, I know) that it is this kind of rage and pain that she should be feeling before she can take care of herself. I did it in half her years. Can't she?

Thanks

Michael

[Lychee]

Anyone can change if they really want to, but it seems your mother doesn't. For most people, after they reach a certain age, it is difficult to change their beliefs. Perhaps they use the excuse that "It's always worked for me" or "I'm too old to change" or "I don't want to change." I'm not saying that it is difficult to change beliefs when people get old - but many people hold this idea and remain steadfast to it. It probably is easier for your mom to remain the martyr (if that really is the case) than it is to take responsibility.

But after a while, you realize that you can fight with them or you can choose to accept their decision not to change. The former might work, but with your previous attempts to change her mind nothing was accomplished, right? She wouldn't be angry as you say she is now if it worked. I know that you feel that by changing herself she will enjoy her life more and raise herself up to a better position, but she doesn't want to do that. It hurts to see someone you love choose this path, but it is better to look past it and choose to work through the relationship despite this obstacle. You are both different people with different mentalities.

If you feel she is controlling the family, do not give your power over to her. If she does do some immature things, let her know that you believe those acts are disrespectful. Help her realize that what she is doing is also playing part in the way the relationship is going. If she fails to understand that and continues to behave in the way she does, what other choice do you have but to limit your time with her?

[wystan]

thanks - on the one hand you say, 'don't bother,' on the other you say, 'let her know these acts are xy and z.' Well, doing this is exactly what made her fly off the handle the last time! these folks are complex, that's for sure! For example she (like my sister) exploded when I suggested they might be paranoid (ie that I would want to hurt them) but also both underline the fact that they are 'fragile' and must be treated carefully. Catch 22, innit?

I think being honest about my own struggles and triumphs might be the way. I think it' sbest to tell people abou tyou for them to open up. If not, I will just have to say, 'well, that's me - how's about you?'

Also, she's new to email, so that was prolly my first mistake. But we live a couple hours apart. That's far over here (!)

Michael

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by wystan

thanks - on the one hand you say, 'don't bother,' on the other you say, 'let her know these acts are xy and z.' Well, doing this is exactly what made her fly off the handle the last time! these folks are complex, that's for sure! For example she (like my sister) exploded when I suggested they might be paranoid (ie that I would want to hurt them) but also both underline the fact that they are 'fragile' and must be treated carefully. Catch 22, innit?

I think being honest about my own struggles and triumphs might be the way. I think it' sbest to tell people abou tyou for them to open up. If not, I will just have to say, 'well, that's me - how's about you?'

Also, she's new to email, so that was prolly my first mistake. But we live a couple hours apart. That's far over here (!)

Michael

When I say that you should accept her for who she is, that doesn't mean that you should let her disrespect you or be mean to you without just cause. If you let her know about how you feel and she still acted in that way, then you just have to let it go. What more can you do? Talking to her about such matters results in friction and argument. If her behavior is really that outrageous, accept that she won't change and alter your own behavior to match that.

It may be a catch 22, one we might not understand until we are older.

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by wystan

So I play nice, I get nice. BUt she's genuinely upset at all of this. Just I think (well, I know) that it is this kind of rage and pain that she should be feeling before she can take care of herself. I did it in half her years. Can't she?

Certainly she can. If that's what she wants to do.

There is a belief that says people need to hear about their faults in order to recognize them and then change them. That may be true, once. And it may be true if the feedback is solicited. But my results (and apparently yours) show that is not always true when the advice is unsolicited or in perpetuity. (I suspect it's not even almost true in those cases.) I would guess that your mom has a pretty good grip on your critical thoughts about her. Expressing them to her has not worked to get you what you want in your relationship. Try this different approach and see where it gets you.

If you want to have a pleasant (possibly wonderful) relationship with her, try this technique. It has worked wonders for me in relation to people I care deeply about but didn't see eye to eye with.

First, make a list of all the things you really love and value about your mom. Avoid words like "but" or "except", and only put the good stuff on this list. It can be anything positive. Maybe she's a good cook. Or she has a great laugh. Or she's kind to animals. List every good thing you can think of.

Then, from this point forward, focus all of your attention on the things in this list, and nothing else. If you catch yourself thinking a critical thought about her (and you very likely will) just redirect your mind to the list. Make a game of adding to your list when you see or talk to her. Notice when she does something on the list, and look for things to add to it. Feel free to compliment her frequently. Refrain from saying anything critical to her when you speak. Trust that this is not your job.

This will do two, very possibly three things. First, it will improve the sorts of reactions you get from her. (You said it yourself: "...I play nice, I get nice.") Second, it will improve how you feel with her, because you will be focusing all of your energies upon those things that you love. As time goes by, you will see less and less of the negative, and more of the positive. The third possible consequence of this exercise is a change in her behavior. This cannot be guaranteed because she can do what she wants. However, if there is a part of her that really wants to get better, bathing her in love and appreciation and encouragement is how you can best help her to attain that.

Oh, and you can use this technique on your dad as well!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by wystan

Is this my problem or theirs?

Yours.

You began your email by mentioning how non-judgemental you have been, but your entire post reeks of heavy-duty Judgement of your parents. Perhaps you believe that that's not what you've expressed to them -- it's just what you're telling us here privately -- so it shouldn't be a factor in your relationship. But it comes through pretty strongly that Judgement is what you're being with mum & dad (and I would bet elsewhere in your life, as well.) No mystery as to why they'd be resistant and defensive and in denial. That's how people react when they feel oppressed.

There's something else you could be that would interrupt this long-held pattern, if you're willing to practice letting go of what you're so tightly clutching. And if you keep on doing what you've been doing, you'll keep on getting what you've gotten. It's your choice.

[wystan]

whilst I appreciate at least some of the responses I'm getting here - perhaps I am too stupid to hear what others are saying - I wonder if anyone responding actually knows what I am talking about. I don't really get the feeling that you know what it is like to have a mother who is so wrapped up in herself and bullying her husband into being present, that she is not there for her children.

I just last night recalled a story that my mum told me and my dad last month about how (in that non-judgemental email about childhood pain) I had said that I had felt that no one was around to help with homework. She replied "oh, yes, your father was too there sometimes. I remember it was the biggest row we had. I wanted a 'cuddle' and he stayed up to help you with your homework. How we rowed!" That struck me as just embarassing last month. Now thinking about it, I realise that she was telling me how she was competing with my dad's affections.

I wonder if it's a certain type of person who posts on this forum who DOESN'T have similar issues to mine or whether what I've written actually chimes with anyone.

I didn't write this post in absolute ignorance of the pros and cons or subjective viewpoints; but I defy anyone to be 'non-judgemental' about an upbringing that they are still sorting out in their head or 'let go' of a parent who treats you like you are some elderly maiden aunt on a trip for tea. We are able (in anonymous cyberspace) to have this kind of open conversation. Why do you consider me judgemental for wanting to get at least a little bit of open book action with my mother?

Or am I being collosally stupid?

Thanks

Michael

[Angela]

Michael, it looks like I've triggered a defensive feeling in you, just like what I was talking about doing -- so I guess I've mirrored exactly the thing I was talking about! I'm sorry about that.

You're 30 years old, right? So, would you not agree that you don't need parenting from these two so much as you would like to have a great relationship among adults? Or am I wrong, and you feel longing for mothering or fathering?

If it's an adult relationship you're striving for, I think it would behoove you to take 100% responsibility for the relationship. In your original post, it appears to me that you put at least half (probably more) of the responsibility for creating your relationship onto mum & dad. You're welcome to do that, of course; I certainly didn't mean to make you feel wrong or stupid about it! But: is that working? What I meant to point out to you is that you have a habitual way of being with your parents (and yes, it sounds like it involves judging them. it also sounds like you do a lot of judging of yourself!) On the contrary, I think you're very intelligent and courageous for opening yourself up to alternate viewpoints here on this forum.

Can you see where you are free to let go of something regarding your parents (you don't have to let go of your actual parents!) and try on another way of being? Yes, it would involve taking 100% responsibility for your life, your satisfaction, and your fulfillment, and that is a huge thing to take on. Are you willing to do that, or do you want to go on with the feeling that all or most of the power is outside of yourself?

Best wishes and lots of love,
angela

[wystan]

thanks angela.

You are right that this post has brought up some ... interesting feelings within me. The problem is that I have felt like the grown up for some long time. For whatever reason, my parents are simple and behave like they are not particularly smart. They have no self-awareness. However, I am really very smart - with all the good and the bad that entails - and am full of self-awareness. This is a good thing.

For a long time things have been 'ok' with my parents, as I suggest - the whole maiden aunt at tea thing - and it's all been very polite. What I perhaps haven't gotten across so well is the breakthrough I am trying to achieve in talking to my parents openly. My mum fears me - all these things in the first post I mentioned - and they are all things that have ONLY really happened when I try and talk about my own needs. I could go back to 'normal' and we would have a pleasant enough time. But something tells me that is not enough. I don't want my parents to say 'sorry' to me. I don't really want them to change. But I can't - although that would be fine (in the Southern sense of the word - figure out how to produce this adult relationship which everyone seems keen to bring about. Perhaps a part of my subconcious is hoping that, if we .... a thought occurs I NEVER REBELLED! ... had some of those feelings out in the open that are so well hidden by my parents, then I would feel more affectionately towards them; I would feel affectionate. If I see my mum in my mind's eye now, I don't really feel like I want to hug her; I'm not sure I could even love her at present. And this is odd, because she is a sweet person. I think there are a bunch of issues in my past that would take too long to go into here, that are probably at the root cause. I chose to go to boarding school, but when I got there, I was very unhappy and ran away. They dragged me back there one end-of-half-term. Also, the happy go lucky person that my mother is today is quite different from the depressed, argumentative, poverty-stricken and faced with her husband's bankruptcy and house repossession lady that brought me up. We grew up poor, no doubt about it. I have always felt that something lurked in my past regarding some kind of cruelty from my mother. I remember at a very young age being significantly depressed when she returned to my grandmother, her mother's house, to pick me up after a weekend. I can still remember the gloom that dawned within me. That's odd, no? I always dream about my grandmother's house (from where I was dragged that time, aged eleven, and where I spent so many a happy weekend) whereas I never dream of my family home, which was old (18th century) small and ill-considered in layout, similarly to how i figure my care from my parents was. They are slapdash. THey don't know HOW to care for stuff - themselves, careers, future - and it has taken me such a long time to learn how to do all this stuff to realise my fairly obviously considerable potential. An alternative me (I am deputy editor on a successful magazine) would have temped worked in a bookshop bummed around lived off dole ... you name it. So I am angry, relieved, worried, concerned ... and all at two of the most benign and kindest (when not riled) people in the world. Go figure! I also have a streaming cold.

Thanks for your time.

love

Michael x

[wystan]

i guess maybe I wonder what the 'heavy duty judgement' of my parents is, too. I guess it's sometimes hard to see ...

Michael x

[Angela]

Originally Posted by wystan

i guess maybe I wonder what the 'heavy duty judgement' of my parents is, too. I guess it's sometimes hard to see ...

Michael x

Michael, I've deleted out the stuff that didn't sound like judgment to me, and here's what's left, so you can see it from an outsider's perspective:


I have realised she is quite severely codependent.

she... even lacks the self-respect to train!

I have always called her a martyr.

My dad is silent and distant

I want my mum to realise she's not happy

it's a power struggle about her way of doing things (which is her controlling the family)

I talked her down from this craziness (if you knew her, you'd gasp)

Just I think (well, I know) that it is this kind of rage and pain that she should be feeling before she can take care of herself. I did it in half her years. Can't she?

[wystan]

you have certainly made me think that I am being harsh on her / them / the whole world / me. I just wonder what to replace all this judging WITH.

And how do I go forward with my parents now. Do I just put up with the 'old way'?

[Angela]

Well, I think the first step is to acknowledge what you've been being and to take responsibility for it. Can you see for yourself how being judgemental has been a self-perpetuating action? You judge, then your parents/the whole world/yourself reacts, and then you judge the reaction, which creates more reaction, and so on?

Once you're really alert to that trap you set for yourself, you are free to either: a) keep doing it; or b) try something else. It's looking at the trap square in the face that gives you freedom to release yourself from that trap and act powerfully.

When you've taken a good look, and you're ready, start speculating: what's a way of being that might work better than being judgement. That way of being is something that makes you feel good, and something that inspires you. You don't have to commit to a particular way of being, just speculate, and see what comes up.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by wystan

whilst I appreciate at least some of the responses I'm getting here - perhaps I am too stupid to hear what others are saying - I wonder if anyone responding actually knows what I am talking about. I don't really get the feeling that you know what it is like to have a mother who is so wrapped up in herself and bullying her husband into being present, that she is not there for her children.

Hi Michael,

There are lots of people who lack experiences like this and so end up giving advice that seems to indicate that they don't understand, especially if they have predominantly positive family experiences. I also think that they don't understand.

I have had very difficult parents and not a good family life or upbringing. I don't have contact with my father anymore (since a year). My brother, who is very different from me, maintains contact with my father, but it seems to be falling apart (again). My brother tirelessly tries to discuss or debate or argue my dad's behavior with my dad, and I can tell you that for decades they have been going in circles. There was a 3-year period where my brother and my dad had no contact at all. A new period of silence between them may be ushering in.

Anyway, you should know that I am not a stranger to what you are trying to do with your mother, even if the behaviors and situations are not perfectly identical. There are two things:

1. As I have witnessed my brother's tireless efforts and arguments with my dad over the decades, I still marvel that he persists in trying to get my dad to see the error of his ways. (It's ironic to note that my brother and my dad are really alike too - though my brother lacks one extra very damaging (to others) behavior that my dad has.) I told my brother I don't know why he continues. They are like broken records. Consider that in your situation with your mother.

2. This is what I really want to say. Take a new perspective on your relationships. Read this blog entry by Steve and try it out with your mother. Maybe read some more about this approach.

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...relationships/

I very much like this, because it gives you something to do without the other person's accord. It gives you control. If you can learn how or understand how to do it, I think it would be so good to try it out. You could learn more about the principles behind it by reading and listening more to some things on this website.

[InJoy]

Originally Posted by wystan

I wonder if anyone responding actually knows what I am talking about. I don't really get the feeling that you know what it is like to have a mother who is so wrapped up in herself and bullying her husband into being present, that she is not there for her children.

For my part, let me just say that I am intimately familiar with dysfunction in family. I choose to put my focus elsewhere, so I'll not go into any details about that.

For years (and years) I spent time and a whole lot of money talking to people about my problems. Never once did they shrink under scrutiny as psychologists said they would. They just got bigger and bigger. (And please believe me when I say they were BIG to begin with.)

What worked for me was to realize that I had no control over other people. I only had control over myself. I changed my focus, using a similar exercise as outlined in my above post, and came to a place where people now think I have an ideal family situation.

Well, in fact, I do have an ideal family situation now.

That's not to say that everyone in my family acts just as I would have them act. But I'm happy and content and I love them all dearly just as they are. That makes all the difference in the world.

I wish you the best.

[wystan]

I have absolutely no idea who Steve Pavlina is or what his angle is. It's not giving me the creeps, so that's a good thing. I will check it out, I guess. Is he / this forum a CBT practitioner or something?

Erm, I guess not controlling (realising inability to control) is obviously a good thing from any standpoint. Certainly, it fits with: buddhism that I am kinda into and, of course, takes a stand against the codependency that I have railed against.

I am not sure whether people on this forum can see any pattern in my judgements outlined above and what they say about me or whether they see any profit in doing so.

My problems aren't particularly big, Itsy. I feel for you that yours were. I have probably made most of my own for me. I was cared for in a careless fashion, my mum was great at putting food on the table, we got away (mostly to wet bits of France, but, hey!) I had wonderful grandparents and something for Xmas and birthday if not exactly what I wanted. School was miserable and I don't think I was readied for the harshness of the world around me, but now, through necessity, I know far more about it than most other people seem to. They might as well be living on Neptune for all they could summate about this incredible planet.

Thanks for your help. I just spoke to my boyfriend about this forum and he, quietly, so as not to 'get me going,' I imagine said, 'yes, you are harsh and judgemental of your mother.' So I think it's been useful. Keep it coming of course!

Michael x

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by wystan

I have absolutely no idea who Steve Pavlina is or what his angle is. It's not giving me the creeps, so that's a good thing. I will check it out, I guess. Is he / this forum a CBT practitioner or something?

In that case, welcome to his website . I don't know what CBT is, but he is too multi-faceted and "mentally flexible" to label as a practitioner of one thing or another.

Like Injoy, I have tried therapy and found it useless, and it sounds like maybe your situation isn't as serious as at least mine had been, so you may not need to consider therapy, but at least I am nearly 100% certain that it would be more productive for you to try a different approach. It might save you years of time and frustration which would result from continuing with a method that helps neither you nor your mother.

I found this website in January and from reading on it, I got more useful information for all life issues than I got in x years of therapy and psycho-analyzing myself. It's just a question of figuring out how to implement what you read here properly so you get results...but before ever trying, most people get tripped up on just accepting the information and rather argue or debate about it on the website than use it, so if you get caught up in that, it won't be of use for your situation, but it would provide you with a distraction from your problems.

Originally Posted by wystan

I am not sure whether people on this forum can see any pattern in my judgements outlined above and what they say about me or whether they see any profit in doing so.

I'm sure there are patterns there to be seen, but at least for me, would take more careful reflection than I have time to do. If you want to take a shortcut to a solution, try reading up on this website. I am trying what is described in that article I linked to, which I had read about before I saw that. I don't know if it is helping the other person in question, as we don't have regular contact, but it is helping me. That already makes it better than therapy.

Originally Posted by wystan

Thanks for your help. I just spoke to my boyfriend about this forum and he, quietly, so as not to 'get me going,' I imagine said, 'yes, you are harsh and judgemental of your mother.'

That is normal, though, because she is your mother and not his. I don't think you should spend any time feeling bad about that or that it is wrong, but what you should do is work on it in yourself, which is easy to do in the way described in the blog I linked to. Another reference is this:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...-no-out-there/

It's a Hawaiian method called "ho'oponopono" and I actually got the main part of my understanding how to do it from this site Self Identity through Ho`oponopono

It is based on the idea, like in Buddhism, that there is only one consciousness, and, logically, therefore, when you heal something in yourself, or you find peace with resistances within yourself, the situation or person in which that resistance appears will also improve. I am new at it and it takes discipline to remember to do it and then to do it, but after all these years, I can say it is the best thing I have found for dealing with all issues. It's just hard to describe to another person how to do it, because it is a very internal experience and I think if you are doing it right, you can feel a release in yourself and acceptance and peace coming in regarding issues around the relationship and the person in question.

[wystan]

I am not sure Buddha had any ideas about trancendence and mystical consciousness. He says things are connected - the table and the floor are interconnected as is the carpenter, the tree, the candle on the table, etc. And if we are happy we might make others happier. But I think he sat under his tree alone and for himself as we all can whether or not we believe we can change things without touching them. He did, however, forsee that his philosophy would be misinterpreted within a thousand years. New to it, though.

Actually, it is interesting to look at Pavlina's interpretations of projection, because if we use mindfulness to look closely at how we are feeling and to take care of ourselves in the most direct way, then we are doing exactly what he suggests. I feel uncared for by my boyfriend sometimes. It makes me sad. I smoke (tryin' ta stop) but it doesn't make me sad that I am not caring for myself. It's easy to see where my mental confusion comes. If I apply my bf's not caring to my own not caring, I can see that I am saddened that I treat myself badly. If I were meditating properly, I would be paying attention to these feelings, possibly. Work in progress this one, but I think you can see where I am going with it.

CBT is understanding your behaviour, quite simply, and how it affects others and how you might be digging your own holes. It's quite different from the 'tell me about your mother' therapy of Freud. Traditional therapy is useful because it does cause you to confront full on the rage and pain that you have suppressed and actually feel it - to listen to your body rather than have it stick its fingers in its ears. I believe emotion is a force within us that can be let out if we look closely enough at it - face it enough. I know cos I have done just that through meditation. If you stick with that emotion, as therapists suggest, then you will lessen its force. Why? Because the worse has happened and because it's unleashed.

So these are some of my beliefs.

[wystan]

PS I have found therapy useful. It is a bit harsh to dismiss it, especially as - as I'm sure Mr Pavlina would agree - a lot of therapists and theorists of the mind have done a lot of the heavy lifting in allowing him to present his rather nimble, fleet and pragmatic theories of life that he does on the web site.

CBT says a lot of the same things. NLP practicioners tend to base some of their stuff in it. The mind can be retrained in many different ways, I guess.

[medaille]

Here are a couple things that I notice in your posts.

I feel uncared for by my boyfriend sometimes. It makes me sad. I smoke (tryin' ta stop) but it doesn't make me sad that I am not caring for myself.
...
If I apply my bf's not caring to my own not caring, I can see that I am saddened that I treat myself badly.

I feel guilt in these statements.

In the rest of your posts, I get the impression that you are focusing on the negative things in your life and more specifically the negative things that are happening to you by either other people or by the part of your brain you can't control perfectly.

-------------
Guilt and negativity will seriously get in the way of bettering your life. When you focus on negative things, its like everything you see starts to look negative. The world starts to look harsh and cruel.

I have always found that it's better to focus on the positives in life. Focus on what you see that's good around you. Just sit for a while and contemplate on where you want to go. Imagine what it would be like to be the person that you want to become. Imagine how they think and how they treat the people you want to change your relations with. How is that new version of you more loving to them? Spend a certain portion of time everyday while you are meditating or whenever you can focus on it just focusing on creating that new person in your mind. You really have to understand where you want to go in order to actually get there.

You'll find that the more you imagine what that new version of yourself is like, the more you start to become like that person and the better your life is.

God or whomever, gives us challenges in life so that we can grow and become better people. The bad things aren't bad. They are just warning signs that alert us to pay more attention to those things in our life and to get that handled. All bad experiences are just stepping stones to being a better person, you just have to make sure you are focused on what you want to become rather than expecting to get more and more bad things.

Also, I read somewhere that the things we dislike about others are the things we dislike about ourselves and conversely, the things we like about others are the things we like about ourselves.

I've found this really useful, because when people do things we dislike, it points out what we can do to make other people's lives better. All of a sudden everybody starts treating you better, because they're getting treated better.

[wystan]

thanks, Medaille.

Not sure about the guilt thing.

It's interesting, isn't it?, how we (laypeople and therapists) can come to such opposite conclusions about what the 'best' course of action is.

I personally believe that, unless you face negative emotions (which never go away, even if you don't think about them) you will never learn to handle them. I recently experienced through meditation extreme fear, anger and pain with accompanying sobbing. These things I have not really focussed on before. I think the danger is actually seeing them as negative. Fear is most useful if one is being chased by a bear. I think focusing on the positives a la NLP and - I'm gathering - Pavlina - provided you are able to experience 'bad' stuff, too. I wouldn't have changed my experiences with pain and rage for the world. I am grateful to have felt these things. At least I know I am human! And now they can't bother me in the same way. It's important for me to be non-judgemental about what I am feeling - no point getting angry about being angry! - so that I can let my body hear what it has to say to itself without getting caught in a knot.

I totally agree that one should not dwell on bad THOUGHTS; that is totally counter to meditative practices. I like to think of it as a pie (weirdly) If I want to meditate on, say, anger (hopefully less of it every week) then I think of something that makes me angry, then I whip off the crust (the angry thought) and then focus on the phsycical feeling of the anger (the meat - or carrots if one is a veggie) I study it. It's familiar to me now and it's not threatening. If it comes up when I am not meditating, then I can recognise it. Actually for me fear is normally followed by anger. I think that's pretty usual. And pain is underneath hiding beneath these two bullies.

I am pretty secure in replying in this way, because I know that this way of behaving has a good 2,500 year history. One can meditate on anything in this way and thus lessen the effect. If you don't believe in the lessening of the physical reserve of pain, then at least you can see the benefit of knowing your enemies. So when you feel this feeling that can cause one to say and do terrible things to other people, you know how to feel it rather than act on it. Lust, obsessive behaviour, the list goes on really.

No, I think you have to experience emotions - good and bad - and not judge them in order to work through them. Literally, I believe you have to face them. Certainly for me there would be no joy in my life if I simply tried to ignore them. There wasn't for 25 years. Now it's mostly joy and gladness of being alive that I feel.

xx

[wystan]

and I'm totally anti the God thing. I believe, with Shakespeare, we do not see the world as it is but as we are.

[medaille]

I think we're pretty close, but I think some of our verbiage keeps our points from being completely clear to each other.

I definitely feel that there is a god, or a consciousness, or some sort of guiding hand in the universe. For me it's not blind faith, although some might argue. I can feel it. Sometimes things get too weird and too improbable for there to be any other explanation. Jung called them synchronicities. The first time, I noticed it was when I was in college. I would walk around everywhere, and for a solid week I never had to stop at a crosswalk. The lights would always seem to be signaling for me to walk. I also noticed that I would keep running into the same problems over and over although in different forms or through different people and once I figured out how to deal with them, I would never encounter that problem again.

I think we can agree that it is necessary to be aware of our pain and emotions. It definitely doesn't serve us well to have those emotions building inside us without us knowing it. Those are the kind that blow up at the worst times. But I think once we recognize our emotions as what they are: a symptom of our needs not being met, we don't really have any point of staying in those emotions any more.

For me, once I recognize that I'm feeling anger or much more likely frustration, I say to myself, "Ok, what's happening around me that causes my ego to produce unhappiness?" Then I tell myself that being mad or frustrated is natural, but now that I know what the problem is, I can fix it eventually, so there's no need to be frustrated anymore. It's like I was asleep before and now I'm ready to conquer that challenge since I'm awake to it. I say to myself, what are the billion different reasons that could have caused this problem. Like maybe my mom (a true example for me) is so scared of not having enough and not providing enough stuff for her children that she has no energy left to help her children emotionally. She never learned that she was pushing me away because she only provided for me materially and not emotionally or as a close friend. All of a sudden, I realized that she's not doing it on purpose. She has her own struggles that she's ignoring and are causing her pain. It stopped making sense to feel anger or frustration. From then on, whenever she would do things that would push me away, I would feel sorry for her rather than mad at her. I would want to help her rather than deal with her. It wasn't her making me unhappy, it was me making myself unhappy everytime life didn't go as I thought it should. I would just say to myself, this is going to make me stronger once I figure out how to be happy when it happens. Then I would try to figure out how to be happier. Almost all the time, the answer for me is to realize that I'm trying to control something I can't control or expecting life to be the way that I want it. Then I focus on why the other person might unknowingly be doing what they're doing and find reasons for their behavior that don't make me angry. Often times, I can see that they are angry or fearful too and are just running from their problems. Like they just can't see it. Then I try to help them or comfort them, when they are feeling bad. That's mostly for people I'm close to, but I try to be as compassionate as possible, because most people don't want to make other people feel bad unless they are under super stress and their ego takes over.

I don't know if that helps, but you have my best wishes.

[wystan]

Thanks Medaille

Actually, this forum has helped a lot of things swim into focus. So thanks everyone even if we have differed.

What people don't seem to have perhaps taken into account is that, perhaps, my mum was not very nice to me when I was younger. The email I sent her - whilst clumsy - was not strong enough to have elicited the reactions they did. My Pavlina's blog (thanks Bitsy) http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...relationships/ about how judgements about others are judgements about oneself is key to my understand myself and her!

- That her friends (she) would be ashamed of me if they knew how I 'belittled' her. They (she) think I am great.
- That I am an alien to the family
- That she would like to protect me from my father's (her) anger. Ironic since my father is absolutely conflict-averse.
- That she thinks she should call the Samaritans.

And it has always left me thinking why it is I am scared of her and was sad of her when she picked me up from Granny's. Well, now I know. She is scared of me and resentful of me and angry at me. And THIS IS NOT NEW. This is what I have been scared of provoking in her - in lovers, in everyone - since I was a kid, whenever I did not tow the line. I showed off, I was a lying toad, because I wasn't whom she wanted me to be. I never rebelled when younger.

As in all good family dramas, she and my dad are coming to stay the night. I managed to write down a hate-filled invective (for myself) on the train with some real valid stuff and some just nasty stuff to get it out of my system. I feel a lot better now, even though I realise quite sharply that she has revealed to me that she doesn't love me as I am (she has said as much) and that I have good reasons not to love her and don't particularly. Actually, I feel - have always felt - rejected. But in only intellectual terms. Now I really feel it. Strangely it has all subsided now. I know I cannot please her - have tried more and more recently - handmaking a bowl for her, ganging up with her to bully my dad about cleanign the patio, even getting a nurse friend of mine to help her through her pap smear! She has been profusely grateful each time. But when I question her, even gently, mostly saying how her behaviour hurts me, then she says, 'she's not surprised that she wonders whether she should have anything more to do with me.' How is that for accepting love?

So, relief. I don't have to please her any more. There is no point. I cannot see whether we can have a loving relationship any more or whether I want one. It dosen't help that my partner, though quite supportive, grew up with an aggressive mother himself and is scared of me dealing with these issues in these ways; thinks I have transgressed. I guess this is why I am posting so much.

As for you Medaille, I do wonder whether you should be feeling your anger before you are so quick to reason it away. I know you feel you are happy this way - and if you are, then good for you - but it seems like a lot of work to keep these feelings in check. Why do this if feeling them instead allows them to pass.

Going back to Pavlina's post it seems that you yourself suggest that you are pushing YOURSELF away (you talk about it in terms of your mother) rather than getting close to yourself.

All very interesting ... any advice for my dinner party, please let me know post-haste. Just for the record, I am pretty happy about how things have turned out with this. It definitely feels right, so I do not need anyone telling me to Accentuate the Positive. Maybe if I keep posting, then that will be good advice. I would just like any reads on how I might handle my mother given the poisoned chalice that I have handed myself.

A final word. Americans are different from Brits. Some time in the last 50 years, you overtook us on the politeness, embarassment and status front (cf Desparate Housewives, all about these things) and so I imagine whether I come across as very harsh. I would defend myself by saying that I am more in touch with my feelings than most Americans. And I am happy with that I lived in the US for nearly five years, so I do not speak out of my ass.

Love and thanks

Michael x

[medaille]

A final word. Americans are different from Brits. Some time in the last 50 years, you overtook us on the politeness, embarassment and status front (cf Desparate Housewives, all about these things) and so I imagine whether I come across as very harsh. I would defend myself by saying that I am more in touch with my feelings than most Americans. And I am happy with that I lived in the US for nearly five years, so I do not speak out of my ass.

I don't know very many Brits, but I think this is true. I also remember reading a paper or an essay or something that stated that the Brits and the Americans are at the bottom of the list in the developed world in like every category in terms of wellness (like depression, suicides, etc...)

It's a very bad thing in my mind, because I think it's evidence to the degree in which we supplicate ourselves to our surroundings as the default thing to do. We have to be cautious around others rather than just being ourselves and confident in our ability to handle what comes to us.

With regards to the rest of your post(s), it's funny how life can get screwed up and all of a sudden the challenge emerges of how to right yourself.

Going back to Pavlina's post it seems that you yourself suggest that you are pushing YOURSELF away (you talk about it in terms of your mother) rather than getting close to yourself.

I think that's a fairly accurate assumption. I've been getting warning signs that I'm doing that from a couple of sources (in other ways) and I can feel it even if I don't want to feel it.

As for you Medaille, I do wonder whether you should be feeling your anger before you are so quick to reason it away. I know you feel you are happy this way - and if you are, then good for you - but it seems like a lot of work to keep these feelings in check. Why do this if feeling them instead allows them to pass.

I think we are in agreement on this point. I wasn't saying don't feel. I was just saying don't choose to be angry. I know at times in my past I've felt angry, and then I noticed it, then I kept feeling angry and got some pleasure out of it. It was as if my anger justified what I was feeling. Like because I was angry, the XX source that caused my anger was wrong and thus I could justify that being angry was ok because XX was bad.

In actuality, XX wasn't bad and I was just being angry because I wanted to externalize the blame. XX just happened, and I chose to be angry and in the process, ignored my personal responsibility in taking the action necessary to be happy given the circumstances I found myself into.

How'd the dinner party go?

[wystan]

Well, since you ask, my parents came for the dinner party (roast chicken with tarragon and butter and some stuff I chucked in the sauce, viz. cream, mustard and some rum!) then we went out to a local pub where they have crooners singing to a professional band all night.

Next day, my mum decided to start talking about what was in the emails and I managed to clear a whole bunch of things with her. It was a long process and I don't really remember all that was said, though some was about some of the ways I had been 'treated,' some was about how she could never have told her mother about they way she felt that she herself had been brought up - and told that she added ten years to her mother's life - because she would have been 'upset her too much - my grandmother was an influential social worker. I'm sure she could have taken it. Some was some very interesting stuff on how she misremembered or conflated key moments in my life (my being thrown out a friend's house at 6am for being gay, my coming out to my mother on a ferry to France) and her reading some stuff into each of these whereas the reality was subtly different and she came across as either neutral or like she didn't know what was going on with me. She even denied having sent me to my room and denied I sat there crying, waiting for her to come up. That would never have happened, she said. Uhu. She told me that she had a 'temper on her,' and that it was lucky my sister had been sent to her room or she would have hit her. Interesting.

we briefly touched on the fact that she, herself, had choices about whether or not to overload herself in her B&B guests and the fact that she needed to care more for herself.

Although I would naturally try and express my pain about various things and leave the 'advice' aside, she wasn't really strong enough to take that. I think I did manage to point out the difference between blame and pain. I also managed to point out that she thought anger and pain were bad - and to be avoided and that made her positive - while I thought they were neutral and needed to be addressed. We got to a natural closure point and she said that she was glad that we coudl (basically) go 'back to normal.' Why, I said? I said why a couple of times more.

Pandamonium broke out! My dad and my boyfriend on the other sofa, gamely trying to put oil on the waters and talk about holiday photos, said: "hey fair play, play nice, your mohter this and that!" My mum said she felt 'cornered' if I just said: "why." And I replied, "but you don't understand that I don't want to go back to where we were before. I want to keep this line of communication open on this level, because this is where I am." We settled down again and I think she understood. Actually, I think I will ask her if she could send me an email. We ended very amicably and I actually jumped onto her lap and squashed her, saying, "mummy's not scared of me anymore!' which was quite nice, and I hadn't really behaved like a kid like that for ages.She says the 'air is cleared.' We will see.

It was certainly hard work - I won't disagree with that - but I think it was worth it. I felt like I'd won a race - actual lasting acheivement - I haven't felt that for a while - and felt very good for the rest of the weeekend. It's quite transgressive, I feel, saying what you should say to your therapist to your parents!

[medaille]

That's awesome. I hope it continues to get better.