Why Geeks and Nerds Are Worth It...

[AndyO]

check it out...

best of craigslist : Why Geeks and Nerds Are Worth It...

[Akashic_Librarian]

Hey thats so true. I am a geek no doubt and I like that list. I shall keep the address...hmmm ctrl + D, right, now I shall go and play tetris till 4 in the morning and then I shall code my phone to recieve incoming XHTML pages on a linux OS!

[AndyO]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Hey thats so true. I am a geek no doubt and I like that list. I shall keep the address...hmmm ctrl + D, right, now I shall go and play tetris till 4 in the morning and then I shall code my phone to recieve incoming XHTML pages on a linux OS!

Haha...this list was inspired by dignations podcast...

[Michael Chui]

I must be out of luck; I teach girls to code. Though I'm still working on the DnD thing. And yes, most of them are in fact good-looking.

There was also that guy who proposed to his girlfriend using a dedicated website and a pretty elaborate setup around town. My main reaction was, "So, how sure was he that she'd say yes?" It was cute.

An interesting correlation about geeks and nerds is that they tend to be more thoughtful about their spirituality. I've noticed this with vague interest, and haven't really looked into it. But every one of my friends who is semi-decent at code has had worthwhile discussion points on matters spiritual, whether it's pseudo-Zen, something even more esoteric, or straight-laced Christianity.

[songwriter]

Don't forget that geeks are fated to have the power in the world as time goes by. The richest man in the world is already a geek (Bill Gates). And every time the "Geek skills" are more helpful, if not essential in the world.
For instance, for personal development.

[micth]

Well can one of you geeks help me study for maths ? I've got my exam tomorrow

[Wulfen]

Dudes, that article is wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to start. Either that, or this thread is sarcastic and my sarcasm detector is malfunctioning.

Seriously, am I the only one who see that as whisful thinking and totally out of touch with reality? If geeks are so good and jerks are so bad, why are the majority of geeks always alone? Does it mean girls are stupid and that they don't know what they want?

Or might it mean that this article is plain wrong, and none of what it says is true, and that geeks typically lack basic attrative qualities?

By the way, songwriter is spot on here. Geeky stuff is useful. I like a lot of it. Heck, my workstation is a Debian Etch. But if there's a beautiful girl in the room you will not see me typing away in the laptop, you will see me getting up and approaching her with a warm smile.

[Akashic_Librarian]

The article is actually very accurate. VERY accurate. Its just most peopel don't realise it

[Wulfen]

Akashic_Librarian:

Ok, a question: if this article is true, how do you make it congruent with the basic fact of reality that geeks don't get girls, and cool guys do get girls?

If you think girls don't know what they want, think again...

[Trina]

Originally Posted by Wulfen

Seriously, am I the only one who see that as whisful thinking and totally out of touch with reality? If geeks are so good and jerks are so bad, why are the majority of geeks always alone? Does it mean girls are stupid and that they don't know what they want?

That's exactly what it means. LMAO. Of course there is nothing that can apply to everyone in the whole world, but being a girl and having a lot of female friends, I can tell you that in general, girls don't know what they want. They THINK they do, but they don't. Either that, or they have their priorities backwards and think that they can change a guys personality (so they go for the good looking jerks) easier than they can change the outer appearance (rather than the geeky guys with a heart of gold). The immediate benefits of bringing a good looking guy around their friends and families FAR outweigh bringing the geek around, and you all know how girls depend on everyone else's opinions to gauge if they have made a good choice. Also, they are romantics and think that they will be that special girl that transforms the handsome jerk into a romantic because they are meant for each other and he won't be able to help but change because he loves her. Or some other crazy crap like that.

Personally, I went the geek route. When I met Adam, he was awkward looking at best, but I could see past that right into who he was and that made him extremely attractive as well. What made me different? I have NO IDEA. Maybe it's because I have a much lower ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ tolerance than just about every girl I know, and after one relationship with a handsome jerk I was over it. I realized there was NO WAY I could change a guys innards, but the outtards were up for remodel. And that's exactly what I did. Now, Adam doesn't look at all like a typical computer geek, until he opens his mouth that is. And I am proud to say that I am the only one out of all of my close friends that is not having relationship problems. I am convinced it's because I didn't let something like a closet full of computer expo t-shirt and an unfortunate haircut stop me from getting to know the guy I married so that I could make sure I actually liked him the way he was on the inside before I married him.

So, maybe the computer geeks have a hard time for a few reasons. First of all, because girls aren't capable of understanding that most men are going to be a lot less likely to let a woman change their inner appearance than their outer appearance. It's practically impossible to find someone that has absolutely everything you want in the looks AND personality department, so girls need to learn to pick their battles and pick the WINNABLE one. Unfortunately, girls aren't wired like that, and being such a foreign concept, a lot of girls just don't get it and never will. And second of all, maybe the geeks need to actually make an effort to look better on the outside. Believe me, as much as he doesn't want to admit it, if Adam had been a better dresser he would have been snatched up LONG before I found him. Really, all he had to do was go out in public in his BDU's. Girls LOVE uniforms. Luckily for me, he didn't. Now that he knows how to dress (or at least has a wife that knows how to dress him), and he is well known as a really smart computer geek around here, he has girls CONSTANTLY hitting on him. Of course, being the computer geek that he is, he is completely oblivious to it. But they definitely do it, and right in front of me. They see not only a great guy with the potential to make money, but they see how adorable he is, and that is irresistible. I can't blame them really.

Of course, there will always be the cases where a girl just isn't physically attracted to a guy no matter how well he dresses, and let's face it, girls want a Prince Charming and if the guy is ugly to them, there is no chance. I have been telling my friends (especially my single ones who complain there are no good guys out there) that they are looking at the wrong things. I get that physical attraction is important. Really, I do. I mean, I am physically attracted to my husband and if I wasn't I can't imagine being married to him. The problem is that girls (and guys) use that initial reaction to how the other person looks as their very first measure of whether ot not to date someone. That is the first thing you see, the first thing others see, how you identify people, it's only natural to use that as your initial determining factor of date-ability. I remind them that what's natural obviously hasn't worked, so maybe depending on just looks isn't a great idea. Adam gets more and more better looking to me the longer we are married, and it's not because the way he looks changes that drastically. It's because of who he is. Can you blame girls for not trusting that is going to happen for them though? Believe it or not, girls are just as shallow as guys are. Just like most guys want the girl with the perfect figure and nice boobs/butt/legs/pick a body part, girls want the same thing in a guy (minus the boobs part). It's the whole biological perpetuate the species thing.

Anyway, I am rambling now. This is all based on what I have noticed in my own life. I think that the tide is turning though. So, geeks of the world, don't lose all hope. :P

[Radical]

I'm not boasting or anything, but I would consider myself fairly attractive to girls. I do notice plenty of wistful looks from girls who try and make eye contact with me. However, I'm a fairly shy person when it comes to girls and you could even call me a nerd, since I'm more interested in learning and less interested in the superficial side of life, such as fashion etc.

Personally though I would rather have a less attractive girlfriend, who is intelligent and a nice person, than a superficial, narcissistic, good looking girlfriend. I hate really superficial girls.

[Andy]

While that's great to point out the benefits of "geeks" being "worth it." I don't see it necessary to do this at the expense of non-geeks and bash them. In fact wouldn't it be better if women judged all potential partners as equally attractive?? Then no one would have any problems!

[Wulfen]

Trina! Awesometastic post!

Hey, I am seeing inthis board that the best advice for men comes from women! It's true that they have an instinctive understanding of how relationships work.

Remarking what I think is key:

Originally Posted by Trina

I can tell you that in general, girls don't know what they want. They THINK they do, but they don't. Either that, or they have their priorities backwards and think that they can change a guys personality (so they go for the good looking jerks) easier than they can change the outer appearance (rather than the geeky guys with a heart of gold).

I'd go for the latter (priorities backwards). IME girls always try to change the guy. But also have in mind that an extrovert, fun jerk can give her more emotions that an introvert, quiet geek. Of course the geek can be more loyal, but this is a trait that is looked for only in long-term relationships. For the initial stages or for short term relationships, the emotional part is more important.

All in all girls would prefer "cool guys", i.e. guys that are funny, outgoing, extrovert, positive, but also loyal, caring, responsible and so on. You did a good job of turning a geek into a cool guy. Some jerks can also turn into cool guys when they mature.

and after one relationship with a handsome jerk I was over it.

There. Not meaning to provoke you or anything, but here we see that your initial reaction, being it instinctive or socially instilled, was to go out with a jerk.

I realized there was NO WAY I could change a guys innards, but the outtards were up for remodel. And that's exactly what I did.

Smart move indeed. But see, once Adam starts doing non-geek stuff, like caring for fashion and style, or going to the gym, or socializing more, or whatever, he stops being a geek by definition. He's now a cool guy, with a geek past. Heh. Reminds me of someone.

But Adam had a different factor: you. Adam changed because of you, and now you say other girls are attracted to him, because of the change you made in him.

Other geeks will not have that luck, because they won't have that "special charm" Adam has, it being his looks or his sense of humour or whatever it was that made you connect with him. So the majority of Adams out there will not get their Trinas, and they will remain geeks and unattractive to the majority of girls, unless they change themselves.

Now, Adam doesn't look at all like a typical computer geek, until he opens his mouth that is.

And that, you could change too. I know how to recompile my kernel, and I know the genealogy of the sons of Fëanor. But I don't go around talking about it, except with likeminded people I love smalltalk, chitchatting and getting to know people in a superficial level. It's fun and you make a lot of friends.

And second of all, maybe the geeks need to actually make an effort to look better on the outside.

You can say it loud...

Believe me, as much as he doesn't want to admit it, if Adam had been a better dresser he would have been snatched up LONG before I found him.

Translation: had Adam looked like a non-geek, he would have got girls. Here, here, I think we are into something...

He has girls CONSTANTLY hitting on him. Of course, being the computer geek that he is, he is completely oblivious to it. But they definitely do it, and right in front of me. They see not only a great guy with the potential to make money, but they see how adorable he is, and that is irresistible. I can't blame them really.

Social proof! The more girls like him, the more you like him! You desire what others have preselected! And it's all your job! You might be proud

I get that physical attraction is important. Really, I do. I mean, I am physically attracted to my husband and if I wasn't I can't imagine being married to him.

Here we have it. Adam is good loking, and that's what attracted you, and you fixed what you didn't like. But geeky guys that are not attractive will have a harder time with this.

The moral of the story is: if you were blessed with good lucks, you'll get girls no matter what. But if you don't want to depend on luck, you need to do your work. Hoping that girls will "wake up" and "realize" what they've been missing won't get you too far.

By the way, there's just a little thing that I want to as you, Trina. I myself consider unmanly to be changed by a woman (I consider it emasculating), though I have no problems to change myself on my own.

Would you have liked Adam more if he had changed on his own? and, do you have problems with the thought of Adam being changed by you? Do you consider this trait unattractive in him, or is not a problem for you? (I say this because most women find unattractive a man that lets them change him).

[Radical]

Jesus, girls ain't worth the trouble.

I don't like all this generalizing, even if girls and boys think differently. I think most of the difference is due to social conditioning. We have to remember that we are all just human beings, looking for nice people to share our experience of the world with.

[Wulfen]

Hey Radical, we're on an off in every thread hehe

I like to discuss with you because you have a different viewpoint from me, without being closed minded. I think it's a good way to discuss and so I hope you don't mind if I reply to you everywhere

Originally Posted by Radical

Jesus, girls ain't worth the trouble.

Yes they are! They are pretty, outgoing, fun, sweet, caring... I like them a lot! I like to have many girls in my life and I want to make them feel good and give them lots of good experiences, sex being an important part of them, that's why I study and practice my seduction skills whenever possible.

I don't like all this generalizing, even if girls and boys think differently.

Generalizing is a valid form of knowledge, as long as you are aware that exceptions might arise from time to time. But you need to know the general case before managing the exceptions.

For instance exceptions in girl's personality are gold diggers, or girls that don't want you for the emotions but for material goods. They are not many, compared to the total amount of girls, and they must be treated in a different way (for instance, by never paying for them, which is something that is gentlemanly to do every now and then for a "normal" girl).

But in order to manage the exceptions, one needs to get a good grasp of the general case. Or else we'd build systematics in top of loose concepts, and none of them would work.

I think most of the difference is due to social conditioning. We have to remember that we are all just human beings, looking for nice people to share our experience of the world with.

Ok, but how can you know what comes from evolution, and what from social conditioning? We know already that we are physiologically different, for instance men can focus more their vision in the long range, while women have better peripherical vision. Why can't we have different brains?

And overall, who cares if it's social or biological? I like that we all strive for a equalitarian society, and I'm all for that, but it's a different story from attracting women as of today. I want to attract women as they are now, not as they would be in a utopical totally sex-equalitarian society, that might be reality 200 years from now.

Here it's a good compendium of differences between men and women. Exceptions aside, I find this a very accurate generalization :

Men & Women: differences

[Trina]

There. Not meaning to provoke you or anything, but here we see that your initial reaction, being it instinctive or socially instilled, was to go out with a jerk.

Absolutely, to a point. I was SO young and immature then, so my priorities were completely backwards. Also, I didn't know he was a jerk. I was blinded by the cool guy exterior. I don't think that girls can help that anymore than guys can help turn into blubbering idiots around beautiful women. It takes experience to overcome those things. It seems to me that it's natural and normal for the good looking jerk to be the learning experience that helps you figure out what you want and don't want in a partner. You look at someone and you can tell the second you lay eyes on them what you like about them physically. It takes time to get to know someone to find out what you like about their personality. People can lie about what kind of a person they are (who doesn't put their best foot forward?), but you can't lie about the way you look if the other person has working eyeballs. I think that's why it works the way it does. It can't help but work that way. It's not the JERK part that is automatic, it's the good looking part that is. Unfortunately they go hand in hand too much of the time.

And let's not forget the power of hormones. They aren't exactly easy to resist.

Smart move indeed. But see, once Adam starts doing non-geek stuff, like caring for fashion and style, or going to the gym, or socializing more, or whatever, he stops being a geek by definition. He's now a cool guy, with a geek past. Heh. Reminds me of someone.

I don't think he stops being a geek. I don't think I have the same dictionary as you do. LMAO. I think being a geek is about where your interests lie, where your heart is. He will always love computers, think like a computer, be entirely too wrapped up in technology, have random piece of code running through is head, draw parallels between his own life and some random Monty Python or Douglas Adams reference, etc. Talking about cars and matching his clothes doesn't change that. I have realized as I have gotten older, that ALL guys are some brand of geek/nerd/dork. Every single one. It doesn't matter how much primping or macho manly car talk and ball scratching they do. They are all dorky/geeky/nerdy little boys inside. Some of them are just better at hiding it on the outside.

But Adam had a different factor: you. Adam changed because of you, and now you say other girls are attracted to him, because of the change you made in him.

Other geeks will not have that luck, because they won't have that "special charm" Adam has, it being his looks or his sense of humour or whatever it was that made you connect with him. So the majority of Adams out there will not get their Trinas, and they will remain geeks and unattractive to the majority of girls, unless they change themselves.

You don't know Adam that well yet do you? He does NOTHING he doesn't want to do LOL. If he did, he wouldn't be a geek in the first place. He would be a jock or a muscle man or something. Whatever is cool. LMAO. He didn't change for me. He resisted it for a LONG time. Finally, the only reason he changed is because he figured out that changing and actually matching his clothes or styling his hair got HIM ahead and got HIM more respect. I planted the idea, but he had to figure it out on his own.

I think everyone has something special about them. Adam didn't have some special quality just shining through that I couldn't ignore. In fact, I was going to end it with him the same weekend he proposed to me because his clingy "I can't believe I have a girlfriend" stuff was driving me completely bonkers. His sister begged me not to break up with him, and of course I am glad that I didn't. But I can't give him credit for having something special most geeks don't have. He was like every other geek having problems getting the girl. LOL.

Translation: had Adam looked like a non-geek, he would have got girls. Here, here, I think we are into something...

Well, not exactly... LOL. He did get girls before, but they weren't good people. I don't think that had anything to do with him being a geek though. No "geek = mean girlfriend cuz that's all you can get". He just got unlucky. I am the proof that isn't true. LOL. I don't think it's necessarily that he would have to be a non-geek per se. He still wears "Chicks dig Unix" shirts and walks around with a palm pilot clipped to his side all the time. It's that he makes an effort to look good. Girls want a guy that is going to at least try to look good for them. A guy that is going to make an effort to be the best they can, and since looks are the first thing you notice, not caring about appearance is a red flag that they may not care about anything else (except computers of course). It makes their minds immediately go to the whole "It's obvious they are way too into computers because they don't take care of themselves, so I know they will never care about me enough to take care of me" thing. Girls are BIG on making an effort in relationships, and they try really hard to make themselves as desirable as they can for their men, and want their men to do the same. After all, sex is a pretty big part of romantic relationships. LOL.

You have to remember, guys look at a shirt and think "It smells clean, I will wear it." Girls look at the same shirt and think of how that shirt will effect every other part of their lives. LMAO.

The moral of the story is: if you were blessed with good lucks, you'll get girls no matter what. But if you don't want to depend on luck, you need to do your work. Hoping that girls will "wake up" and "realize" what they've been missing won't get you too far.

Well, yeah. But more like, if you are blessed with good looks you will get the girl, but unless you have the personality you won't keep her. If you aren't blessed with good looks you may have to work harder getting her, but once you do, you will have her for life. If you don't have either one, you are screwed. LOL.

Would you have liked Adam more if he had changed on his own? and, do you have problems with the thought of Adam being changed by you? Do you consider this trait unattractive in him, or is not a problem for you? (I say this because most women find unattractive a man that lets them change him).

Well, like I said before, *I* didn't really change Adam. He is still the same person he was. He didn't change his personality. The things that he did change, yes I had a hand in, but I didn't force his hand. He fought me at first, and once the seed I planted took root he did it on his own. Not for me, but for him after I suggested it. I just realized that if I wanted to change anything, it would be easier for me to change the outside than the inside, because a man would be more likely to let his outside change than his inside. And it was, but not because *I* changed it, but because HE did. Does that make any sense??

Girls are weird about changing a man. I have no problems with Adam changing because he didn't do it in a desperate attempt to keep me. He did it because he saw that what I was trying to do was in an effort to HELP him and not to make him into something he wasn't. If he was changing every time I said I liked something just to make me happy, hell yeah it would be unattractive. Just like if he refused to even consider change because he was afraid he would look whooped by his woman. Women just want to know that men will do what it takes to make them happy without losing themselves in the process. It's not going to change who you are to make small changes to your wardrobe if your girlfriend thinks you look really good in something. It is going to change who you are if you will only wear something if your girlfriend approves of it. Make sense?

[Trina]

Originally Posted by Radical

Jesus, girls ain't worth the trouble.

I don't like all this generalizing, even if girls and boys think differently. I think most of the difference is due to social conditioning. We have to remember that we are all just human beings, looking for nice people to share our experience of the world with.

Yeah, I definitely feel weird generalizing. But, I also know that a lot of those generalizations are generalizations because there is a grain of truth to them. I think everyone here (or at least I hope) is mature enough to understand that generalizations about men and women are not absolute. :P

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Radical

I don't like all this generalizing, even if girls and boys think differently. I think most of the difference is due to social conditioning. We have to remember that we are all just human beings, looking for nice people to share our experience of the world with.

Very close to what I was about to say. So the woman that wrote the article found a man who has certain qualities (some shallower than others); he's kind, he's attentive, he has a cultivated intelligence, he obesseses over a few hobbies, he eats and dresses poorly, he has a strong libido and is sexually giving, he has respectful friends, and he abstains from alcohol.

That's a short list of qualities that isn't even good enough to partially describe an individual. But she wrote it to describe a whole set of people. Who? Well, because she never defines "geek", I assume she means anyone that shares those qualities she listed. All she's saying is "my boyfriend is great, he's like this. Date someone like him!"

And although generalizing about men and woman can be useful (because we are coping with the actual effects of social conditioning and culture), generalizing about an imaginary demographic that is very ill-defined is mostly an exercise in defining it, which amounts to creating it. We dont need more social conditioning or imaginary boxes to classify people in.

It's pointless generalization. It's at best useless and at worse harmful.

[Radical]

Maybe I'm not being realistic enough, but I'm only 19 and have many more years of bitterness to look forward too, lol.

Anyway Martin Luther King once said "I have a dream..."

Maybe that's all it ever will be.

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by Radical

I don't like all this generalizing, even if girls and boys think differently. I think most of the difference is due to social conditioning. We have to remember that we are all just human beings, looking for nice people to share our experience of the world with.

I don't think boys and girls think differently. I think that, for the most part, the article is as true of nice guys looking for female geeks as it is of nice girls looking for male geeks.

I went the geek route myself, and I agree 100% with all of her points (yes, including sex). I acknowledge the fact that despite all of these good points, most girls don't date geeks. (If they did, some of those good points would go away.) I'll explain this to you if can you explain the following to me:

Why is it that guys say they want an intelligent girl who can actually hold a conversation, not like this brain-dead blonde chick they're currently dating.... but when they break up with this brain-dead blonde chick, they immediately ask out another brain-dead make-up-worshipper?

Hasn't it occured to anyone on the dating scene (male or female) that there will be a high correlation between the sorts of people you ask out on dates and the sorts of people you end up dating?

[Erin Pavlina]

I always was attracted to geeks. I have to boast that in 3rd grade I was dating the CITY spelling bee champion! Oddly, he looked a LOT like Steve did at that age. It's weird. Almost like the universe was preparing me.

The reason you don't see geeks out with girls is because we're all at home with our geeks watching Star Trek, role-playing, or nerding on the computer together.

The people you see at bars and clubs... not geeks.

[peter]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

The reason you don't see geeks out with girls is because we're all at home with our geeks watching Star Trek, role-playing, or nerding on the computer together.

Or staying alone at home, still on the computer... reading personal development forums ...

From one 30 years old, still single geek... the word is EXPOSURE.... take some Aikido classes to whip you into shape then take some dancing classes... (female to male ratio in those classes is unusually high)

Anyway... give the girls a chance... to see you at least...

[Kindred]

Have any geeks around here wondered why a girl will stay in an abusive relationship? Tackle that intellectually and you'll go insane if you haven't already. I think it's a pretty good hint to what's going underneath.

Geeks need to let go of their intellect when it comes to dating and get an understanding of how attraction works without their logic, to step out of their mental toolbox they've clinged to all their life.

I think people need to look at the big picture here, since there's sides being taken. Flashy guys are getting the first step, getting girls left and right but they can't keep them. Geeky guys are getting the last, whenever they do get a girl (which is very rare) they usually keep them for awhile, years sometimes. They're BOTH incomplete and equal.

From one 30 years old, still single geek... the word is EXPOSURE.... take some Aikido classes to whip you into shape then take some dancing classes... (female to male ratio in those classes is unusually high)

In my opinion. Exposure is like taking the pieces of the jigsaw of dating and flipping them over so you can actually see them. But you still need to put the pieces together.

[peter]

Originally Posted by Kindred

Have any geeks around here wondered why a girl will stay in an abusive relationship? Tackle that intellectually and you'll go insane if you haven't already.

Well... you are right... it does have a similarity with why some geeks remain single... and it all comes down to cainotophobia or neophobia... an abnormal fear of new things or the unknown.
We all have this fear... more or less... it is what keeps some of us alone, some in crappy jobs or unfulfilled relationships. When this fear comes into play the person will do the most toxic thing he or she can do: find reasons to stay. They will lie themselves so convincingly that in short time leaving will seam like a very bad idea.

I liked very much this quote by Richard Bach:

The meaning I picked, the one that changed my life: Overcome fear, behold wonder.

The moment we properly identify and overcome our fears is the moment we drop the weight, spread our wings and fly.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Wulfen

Yes they are! They are pretty, outgoing, fun, sweet, caring... I like them a lot!

*lifts an eyebrow* I know a fair host of girls who can't qualify for all of those. And there's an entire class of girls that is categorized under a term that I think is screened by the forum software.

Generalization? Yeah. Very.

Originally Posted by Kindred

Geeks need to let go of their intellect when it comes to dating and get an understanding of how attraction works without their logic, to step out of their mental toolbox they've clinged to all their life.

Attraction is highly logical. Wulfen has gone to considerable pains to show just how logical and sensible it is. Logic is not a way of thinking; it's a method for concluding truth based on truth.

Originally Posted by Kindred

Have any geeks around here wondered why a girl will stay in an abusive relationship? Tackle that intellectually and you'll go insane if you haven't already.

Being a geek, I have not only tackled it, but I've helped a few girls through it and have some amateur psychology theories on the subject. I consider the topic to be a bit lightweight, though.

There is nothing invalid about approaching a subject rationally, as long as you remember to participate in life as much as you observe it. This is why geeks are stereotyped as socially inept, though most of them are extremely capable, especially within their own circles. How many so-called "cool guys" feel socially ept when talking with geeks? Is it so surprising that the feeling is reciprocated? They do not participate in mainstream life, because what makes them geeks is their passion for the niche, the things the general public does not concern themselves with.

It's quite unsurprising that Trina happens to be the one who appears to see this best.

Originally Posted by ahimel

Hasn't it occured to anyone on the dating scene (male or female) that there will be a high correlation between the sorts of people you ask out on dates and the sorts of people you end up dating?

You mean being logical about it?

[Lotus]

What aboot nerdy girls?

[Kindred]

What I was trying to get at was that attraction isn't solvable with regular rational thinking. Using logic yes, once you see what's going on underneath.

Would any girls around in this thread answer this question. Do you spend a day analyzing a guy's qualities to see if you'll like him, and if you do just choose to like him? Or does liking them come naturally, or in a spur of a moment?

I'm absolutely sure the majority of girls are going to say it comes naturally, it's not something they just choose. And since it's something they can't choose, they can't just choose not to. Hard breakups wouldn't be so bad if they could. Emotions overrule our own intellect, otherwise we wouldn't have addiction, road rage, gambling, times of anger, those hard breakups, and even happiness and motivation.

What does the flashy guy do to create those emotions in girls? And what does the geeky guy do to keep those emotions in girls?

The creating part is a lot different from keeping. Girls say they want a sweet, caring guy. But they seem to all go for the good looking guy who turns out to be a jerk. This aggravates geeks in love the most, I'm sure a lot will of them agree. They're sweet, caring, and loving but the girl they like just doesn't like them back anymore than a good friend and instead likes some jerk who they're always complaining to them about. Even though their friend is what they say they want, that isn't what creates the attraction which is why they're nothing more than friends.

Geeky guys in love shout out if you've heard the famous, "Aww, you're so sweet! I'm sure you'll find a girl one day." Yeah, then years pass and you find her and she says the same thing doesn't she?

There are certain qualities in a guy that girls are instinctively attracted to. Guys with confidence, indifference, dominance, social status (which can be conveyed through fashion), independence, good genes (includes looks), and others. Which I conclude with the fact that these jerks have a lot of these, if not all of them. Their personalities have these attractive qualities in them, even though they're the bad boys.

I'm sure a lot geeks would see it crazy of the things that actually cause attraction, which I won't even list because people feel so strongly against them they never believe me (How many people are actively ready to take a hard look and rewire their own morales and reasoning? Not many, look at the ongoing debate of abortion and the existence hypnosis). Which is why I've been saying you can't tackle it with rational thinking. I'm not saying that a geek needs to be a jerk to get a girl interested, for example you don't need to give a gift to be thoughtful, nor compliment someone to let them know you like something about them. I'm saying they need to weave those qualities into their personality and life, and order to do so they're going to hit barriers that block them from seeing the other side.

One examples is that they look at becoming dominant and think of abusive controlling guys. There's a difference from dominant and domineering. Or they look at indifference to be cold hearted or bland.

And I love this quote, probably what will get my point across the best:

Originally Posted by Anne Bradstreet

If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant; if we did not sometimes taste of adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.

Most geeks give a girl the spring first, and continue giving it. The flashy guys give a girl a tough winter first, and continue giving that. The problem is that the geeky guys don't want to give the girls that winter because of their own reasoning and morales. However you can have a pleasant winter before the spring, and that's the magic formula where I think everyone benefits in the end the most.

If they weave those in and expose themselves a bit, starting up conversation in the line-up to buy their new USB keys, talking to the girl who sits nearby him in his class, or say something when they see a girl near a Mt. Dew vending machine they're heading towards. I think they could keep on geeking it up at LAN parties and games of AD&D on weekends and still be able to date a lot of girls and find the one that meets all their wants.

[elainevdw]

I <3 my geek! We nerd out about Final Fantasy, play Magic the Gathering and D&D and install Linux distros together. We also enjoy talking about literature and cooking (he's a great cook) and psychoanalyze friends and strangers. We don't play jealosy games. He's also one of the most outwardly confident people I know -- and one of the most stubborn, and the most loyal. And yes, all of his friends have hearts of gold, even though the vast majority of them aren't geeks (save the few who are geeks in disguise). Like the article says, he's not conventionally romantic, but in his own way, he's very romantic. Perhaps I was predisposed to like geeks. My two older brothers I like to think of as geeks in disguise, too -- very sociable, good-looking and well-dressing, but they play a lot of World of Warcraft and like geeky stuff like the rest of us.

You guys should totally read Ctrl+Alt+Del. It's a comic about two gamers that live together. One always ends up dating psychos who try to kill him, and the other is a psycho himself but starts dating the Ultimate Female Gamer. It's good stuff!

And I don't get all the talk about winters and indifference. If a guy doesn't act interested in me, I am not interested in him. And by "interest," I mean the little things -- asking me to go get coffee, noticing that I'm wearing henna, etc. And if a guy consciously gives me "winter" to manipulate me into craving another "spring," I'd hate his guts. There are other ways to build trust... and women are known for their intuition. Though also for their tendencies to look past such obvious faults for a time if they really like a guy.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Kindred

I'm absolutely sure the majority of girls are going to say it comes naturally, it's not something they just choose. And since it's something they can't choose, they can't just choose not to. Hard breakups wouldn't be so bad if they could. Emotions overrule our own intellect, otherwise we wouldn't have addiction, road rage, gambling, times of anger, those hard breakups, and even happiness and motivation.

"Here's the truth: People, even regular people, are never just any one person with one set of attributes. It's not that simple. We're all at the mercy of the limbic system, clouds of electricity drifting through the brain. Every man is broken into twenty-four-hour fractions, and then again within those twenty-four hours. It's a daily pantomime, one man yielding control to the next: a backstage crowded with old hacks clamouring for their turn in the spotlight. Every week, every day. The angry man hands the baton over to the sulking man, and in turn to the sex addict, the introvert, the conversationalist. Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots."

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Lotus

What aboot nerdy girls?

THANK YOU.