I think I might be a lesbian

[Jillfisher]

I am straight and physically attracted to guys but emotionally I can not stand them.
I am in my early 20's and "hot" by all standards of today’s superficial men.
Although I have been showered with gifts from men, I understand that the only reason they want me is for my looks. I know that for a fact because I am often exposed to their rants and ridicule of “ugly” women (aka. Average/not perfect barbies). It is very clear that I wouldn’t have got the attention I get, If I wasn’t as “hot” as I am, no matter how intelligent and nice I would be. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

I am sick of objectifying remarks like, chicks, hotties…not to mention “bitches”, “sluts”, “nailing”…simply the language fills me with disgust from men. On top of that, there are many double-standards that I can not stand.

It saddens me that women are pressured to sexualize themselves and often throw each other under the bus, in the vicious competition that men dragged them into. Why don’t we just ignore men and encourage each other to get independent?

I never fell in love with a man and don’t want to ever get married. Why do women have to settle for less? Why don’t we support each other until men learn to value women?
I don’t want answers from happily married women. I know there are a few RELATIVELY decent men.

I think women can mentally get close to each other. I have considered relationships with lesbian and asexual women, or perhaps I can find other hetero women who don’t want men?
Will a lesbian give me a chance if I’m not into the sex?

I know I might not become a complete lesbian but maybe sex is overrated. Maybe we can put our sexual energy to something constructive and get excited about our accomplishments? Maybe we can have a ton of non-sexual fun? make each other laugh all the time. Have sensual messages?
I have had crushes on strong women that I admired. I think if you have a great connection with someone, your interest can go beyond just being friends.

[RonSouther]

You are "love" and where there's love, you want to be there, right?

You've truly stated your situation beautifully!

You know that you have an attraction to men sexually. That is part of your nature. It's the opposites attracting thing in life. He has energy to give and you have a willingness to receive it but not from an idiot.

With two women, the opposites are not there and you won't hit the peak of life with a woman as you can with a man.

Something will always be missing with a woman and you sense that in your post.

But give it a whirl! Enjoy a new experience AND watch what happens in you. You won't know until you try and when you do try, you will get a true picture of whether you are a lesbian or whether you long for a mature man.

Men aren't bad. There beliefs are bad. They don't know themselves or life. They don't understand that inside your hotness is a human being that wants to love and be loved. They don't know what love is. It's the rare person, male or female, that knows what love is. I didn't figure this out until 2 years ago.

You're smart not to believe in marriage. Any relating is just two people...you're on the right track there. May I suggest this book? Online Store - Intimacy: Trusting Oneself and the Other It changed my life...about not turning people into objects...

[Spinoza]

Originally Posted by Jillfisher

I am straight and physically attracted to guys but emotionally I can not stand them.
I am in my early 20's and "hot" by all standards of today’s superficial men.
Although I have been showered with gifts from men, I understand that the only reason they want me is for my looks. I know that for a fact because I am often exposed to their rants and ridicule of “ugly” women (aka. Average/not perfect barbies). It is very clear that I wouldn’t have got the attention I get, If I wasn’t as “hot” as I am, no matter how intelligent and nice I would be. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

I am sick of objectifying remarks like, chicks, hotties…not to mention “bitches”, “sluts”, “nailing”…simply the language fills me with disgust from men. On top of that, there are many double-standards that I can not stand.

It saddens me that women are pressured to sexualize themselves and often throw each other under the bus, in the vicious competition that men dragged them into. Why don’t we just ignore men and encourage each other to get independent?

I never fell in love with a man and don’t want to ever get married. Why do women have to settle for less? Why don’t we support each other until men learn to value women?
I don’t want answers from happily married women. I know there are a few RELATIVELY decent men.

I think women can mentally get close to each other. I have considered relationships with lesbian and asexual women, or perhaps I can find other hetero women who don’t want men?
Will a lesbian give me a chance if I’m not into the sex?

I know I might not become a complete lesbian but maybe sex is overrated. Maybe we can put our sexual energy to something constructive and get excited about our accomplishments? Maybe we can have a ton of non-sexual fun? make each other laugh all the time. Have sensual messages?
I have had crushes on strong women that I admired. I think if you have a great connection with someone, your interest can go beyond just being friends.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. You want a relationship with somebody that is authentic. Someone who wants to share themselves and spend time with you for you. You feel its more likely with another female than it is with a male. I say it sounds like a reasonable idea and you should persue it. I also think your not alone at all in those feelings and their probably a lot of women out there who would entertain such a partnership.

[Le Roi]

Sounds to me like you have a lot of limiting beliefs about guys and that you're looking at women as a way to avoid dealing with your limiting beliefs and results you get with guys.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by Jillfisher

I am straight and physically attracted to guys but emotionally I can not stand them.

I think that you're not a lesbian if you're physically attracted to men. Are you physically attracted to women? If yes, that would make you a bisexual, which is what most women are.

Originally Posted by Jillfisher

I am in my early 20's and "hot" by all standards of today’s superficial men.
Although I have been showered with gifts from men, I understand that the only reason they want me is for my looks. I know that for a fact because I am often exposed to their rants and ridicule of “ugly” women (aka. Average/not perfect barbies). It is very clear that I wouldn’t have got the attention I get, If I wasn’t as “hot” as I am, no matter how intelligent and nice I would be. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

I think that sexual attraction is one of the things that make a difference between seeing someone as a potential sexual/romantic partners and seeing someone as a friend. I wouldn't see a guy as a potential boyfriend if I wouldn't be attracted to him sexually, no matter how smart and nice he would be. Most people are sexually attracted to good looking people.

It is obvious that if someone who is good looking, they'll get more attention from opposite sex, because more people are sexually attracted to them hence more people see them as possible sexual/romantic partners. It doesn't mean that everyone likes them solely because their looks, though.

Also, I have to say that women make equally rude remarks about other women and men who do not look good, so this can't be written down as a male-thing.

Originally Posted by Jillfisher

I am sick of objectifying remarks like, chicks, hotties…not to mention “bitches”, “sluts”, “nailing”…simply the language fills me with disgust from men. On top of that, there are many double-standards that I can not stand.

It would probably help you to realize that not all men use language like this, so you can simply hang out with those who are more mature than that and don't take their mommy issues and grudges on a cheerleaders who rejected them in tenth grade on all women.

I also have to say that I heard women calling women sluts more than men calling women sluts. I guess I just have decent guys around them. I came to conclusion that slut-shaming isn't fueled by men (who would probably be happy if women would stop repressing their sexuality) but by women who are jealous towards other women. Just see a thread here about porn actors, where one girl proudly calls porn actresses trailer park trash, sluts, whores and everything else you could think of, considering herself classy. I really don't think we can put all the blame for slut-shaming on men.

Originally Posted by Jillfisher

It saddens me that women are pressured to sexualize themselves and often throw each other under the bus, in the vicious competition that men dragged them into. Why don’t we just ignore men and encourage each other to get independent?

It saddens me when women blame men for their own issues, like jealousy, insecurities and female competitiveness which knows no boundaries. No one dragged us into it. That's our own issues.

Originally Posted by Jillfisher

I never fell in love with a man and don’t want to ever get married. Why do women have to settle for less? Why don’t we support each other until men learn to value women?
I don’t want answers from happily married women. I know there are a few RELATIVELY decent men.

That's strange that you don't want answers from women who are in happy relationships. That might help you change your outlook on men to a more positive. If you only want to hear from women who think that all men are pigs, what value will it have to you?

Anyway, just think about it. There are loads of women who are just horrible immature manipulative bitches. Now, if you'd be a guy and you've only met women like that, who manipulate men, cheat on them, only care about their money and over all are cruel, shallow and without any values whatsoever, what would you think about women as a gender? You'd probably hate them. But would the assumption that all women are heartless manipulative bitches be true? It would be ridiculous, right? The same way, if you only had bad experiences with men, you might make an assumption that all men are like that, but in reality this assumption is absurd.

Originally Posted by Jillfisher

I think women can mentally get close to each other. I have considered relationships with lesbian and asexual women, or perhaps I can find other hetero women who don’t want men?
Will a lesbian give me a chance if I’m not into the sex?

She'll probably give you a chance as a friend, not as a romantic partner. My advice would be trying to solve issues related with men, not running away from the problem by trying to turn yourself into a lesbian when you clearly aren't one.

[BillyTheAdult]

Thanks Agota. I avoided replying to this thread because of my issues with women, I thought it woul just be too loaded of a subject for me. But these things are all largely the issues I myself saw and thought you stated them well. Probably better than I would have with my attached baggage.

[Agota]

I actually thought about you when writing my reply and thought that it might be of value to the poster if you'd share your issues with women. I think it's easier for people to realize the subjectivity of the issues like that when they hear from someone who have issues with their gender, aka it's easier for women to realize that assumption that all men are pigs is absurd when they talk to someone who thinks that all women are cheating lying bitches (I'm not saying that's you, that's just a general extreme example). It definitely helped me to question the validity of my negative attitudes towards men as a gender. It can backfire, though, because person with issues might perceive it as yet another attack from the evil opposite sex..

[ZephyrusX]

No. Sorry, I just found this rather humorous.

But, do you see how that could potentially come across as very offensive? It sounds like you want a lesbian to ignore her sexual needs in order to satisfy you. If you are not actually sexually attracted to other women, please be considerate of other women who are and don't put up some weird pretense just so you can satisfy your own needs.

I think you could establish platonic relationships with other women that can be very fulfilling. You don't need sex in order to have meaningful relationships.

By the sounds of it, you have some very limiting beliefs regarding men, and rather than blaming men in general, I think you could take some personal responsibility and by at cause for the type of relationships you want in life. Men come in all shapes and sizes. There are some common gender patterns, but first and foremost, men are individuals because they are human like you and I. Is there something that you are doing that is attracting the wrong type of man into your life?

Originally Posted by Jillfisher

I think women can mentally get close to each other. I have considered relationships with lesbian and asexual women, or perhaps I can find other hetero women who don’t want men?
Will a lesbian give me a chance if I’m not into the sex?

[Agota]

I don't really understand why consider getting into a romantic relationship with a lesbian when you don't really want sex with women in the first place? Why not friendship, then?

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Jillfisher

I am straight and physically attracted to guys but emotionally I can not stand them.
I am in my early 20's and "hot" by all standards of today’s superficial men.
Although I have been showered with gifts from men, I understand that the only reason they want me is for my looks. I know that for a fact because I am often exposed to their rants and ridicule of “ugly” women (aka. Average/not perfect barbies). It is very clear that I wouldn’t have got the attention I get, If I wasn’t as “hot” as I am, no matter how intelligent and nice I would be. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

Ah, the early 20s. If it's any consolation, this is probably going to be as bad as it gets in your life as far as having to deal with men treating you like a prize or a piece of meat. You're beautiful, more likely to be available than someone older or younger, and a lot more social than you probably will be later in life (therefore accessible), so every douchebag is going to have a crack at you if he thinks he has half a chance.

But don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you're meeting a lot of jerky guys now, that those guys are what most men are like. You're operating under a selection bias - the guys who are most likely to approach you now are the ones who are actively seeking looks as their priority. As you go through your 20s (or as you actively try to find men outside of the bar scene) you'll meet more men who are interested in your more essential aspects.

I have a lot of very beautiful friends, and almost without exception, it took until their early 30s before they found a long-term partner who had the 'full package' for them, and didn't just see them as a pretty plaything. Don't worry. It will happen, but perhaps not quite on the timeline you expected.

I am sick of objectifying remarks like, chicks, hotties…not to mention “bitches”, “sluts”, “nailing”…simply the language fills me with disgust from men. On top of that, there are many double-standards that I can not stand.

If you don't like it, don't put up with it. The only reason that men say that stuff in front of you is that so many women accept it. Speak up when men talk about women that way. Tell them their language is disrespectful and diminishing and that you don't like it. Remove your company if they continue to speak disrespectfully about women. Social punishment is a pretty effective tool for change.

It saddens me that women are pressured to sexualize themselves and often throw each other under the bus, in the vicious competition that men dragged them into. Why don’t we just ignore men and encourage each other to get independent?

I never fell in love with a man and don’t want to ever get married. Why do women have to settle for less? Why don’t we support each other until men learn to value women?

These are all things that you can work to change. Stand up for other women. Don't participate in bitching or judging. Encourage your friends not to take bad treatment. Don't settle for less - believe in yourself and believe in the good guys that are out there. Don't favour men just for their external appearances or conventional 'attraction' factors like money or a flashy car. Don't buy into the idea that you have to dress up in a certain way to attract all men - good men like you just as much in a pair of jeans and a hoodie as in a sexy dress.

Will a lesbian give me a chance if I’m not into the sex? I know I might not become a complete lesbian but maybe sex is overrated.

No, honey. Here, you are prioritising the value of lesbians for one thing ('not a man') just as much as those guys you complain of are valuing you for one thing ('hot'). Don't get caught up in that trap. A lesbian has a right to a completely rewarding relationship (including sexuality) just as much as you do. Of course, if you find yourself interested in the sexual side of a relationship with a woman, by all means try it out. But don't expect someone to give up that very significant part of a relationship because you're not into it.

Maybe we can put our sexual energy to something constructive and get excited about our accomplishments? Maybe we can have a ton of non-sexual fun? make each other laugh all the time. Have sensual messages? I have had crushes on strong women that I admired.

Yes. These women are called your friends. Surround yourself with good ones, ones who don't backbite or undermine. And treat them like gold.

[ZephyrusX]

I thought may be this was a little insensitive. It sort of implies that you are to blame. Jill: I suspect you have very good reasons for having limiting beliefs regarding men. May be your experiences set up some 'trigger' where when you run into a certain behaviour associated with men, you automatically feel angry, distrustful, hurt. May be you have generalized that to all men.

I apologize if I sounded like I was saying 'you are a bad person!'. You should be given a safe place to speak. In saying that though, I'd like to remind you that you are also speaking to another person/people beyond the computer screen. Some of the stuff you are saying in this thread (but especially the other thread) comes across as very judgmental and will rub some people the wrong way.

Again, I suspect you have a good reason in your mind for doing so, but this forum is more about taking personal responsibility and shedding our limiting beliefs so that we can experience more freedom and choice in our lives. This forum isn't a place to make random, hurtful remarks towards each other.

Are you willing to critically examine your beliefs regarding men?

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Is there something that you are doing that is attracting the wrong type of man into your life?

[BillyTheAdult]

Originally Posted by Agota

I actually thought about you when writing my reply and thought that it might be of value to the poster if you'd share your issues with women. I think it's easier for people to realize the subjectivity of the issues like that when they hear from someone who have issues with their gender, aka it's easier for women to realize that assumption that all men are pigs is absurd when they talk to someone who thinks that all women are cheating lying bitches (I'm not saying that's you, that's just a general extreme example). It definitely helped me to question the validity of my negative attitudes towards men as a gender. It can backfire, though, because person with issues might perceive it as yet another attack from the evil opposite sex..

I will try to come back and post, but it will be several hours before I can make an actual qualtiy, thought out post. I also am a bit curious since she is a new member if she is coming back and staying active. I'd rather not waste my time and effort if the OP is not involved in the thread. I'll check back when I can.

[elucidate]

You mirror my own feelings on the subject when I was in my 20's to a scary degree.

I actually give sensual massage for a living now...but just to men. It is open to women as well, but they never book? My boss is male and HE tells me regularly that all men are pigs...even him! I don't believe him though, but it's funny that even a guy will say that.

What is closer to the truth is that many men will behave decently when they are lying there receiving a massage, but if one of the women there decided to get crazy and do stuff that is tantamount to behaving like a prostitute would, then it trains the men to think they can do whatever they like with all the girls...and they do, unless they are told it's not ok!

It seems like a simpler way of doing things...a brief time alone with a person where pleasure is given in a fairly non-sexual way...although they are very fussy and only want "hotties" (even though they are mostly not oil paintings themselves.)

I've had issues with sex as well, and am working through them with a counselor at the moment.

I'd prefer to just give or get a massage and have good conversation these days. It's mostly over rated anyway, and many guys just pump away without even thinking about ways that might give pleasure that don't involve thrusting. Unless you direct them to what YOU want them to do, they won't know.

I haven't given in to believing that all men are like this though, and still hold out for exceptional men, who do exist...but it is challenging to remember when you see so many behave this way.

My sexual energy goes into creating art these days.

I don't want to be a lesbian though, because I somehow suspect it won't be much different, and this has even been confirmed to me from a woman who has been in relationships with women before.

There is the occasional exception, but many are just shallow and only looking for an ego boost at that age, and to make you their ultimate accessory to make them look good to their friends and in public, especially in the twenties age bracket.

As a sensual masseuse though, the majority of clients who come in for a massage are married males over the age of thirty, or have girlfriends, and nearly all of them will ask for 'extras' (even while their wives are having a coffee a block away at a cafe, or at home expecting their first child), and they are mostly extremely fussy and only pick girls who are supermodel looking (which don't exist, but they still demand it.) Even then, they will find something to complain about. Men are just very visual creatures. It's the way they are. You can't change that about them.

Originally Posted by Jillfisher

I am straight and physically attracted to guys but emotionally I can not stand them.
I am in my early 20's and "hot" by all standards of today’s superficial men.
Although I have been showered with gifts from men, I understand that the only reason they want me is for my looks. I know that for a fact because I am often exposed to their rants and ridicule of “ugly” women (aka. Average/not perfect barbies). It is very clear that I wouldn’t have got the attention I get, If I wasn’t as “hot” as I am, no matter how intelligent and nice I would be. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

I am sick of objectifying remarks like, chicks, hotties…not to mention “bitches”, “sluts”, “nailing”…simply the language fills me with disgust from men. On top of that, there are many double-standards that I can not stand.

It saddens me that women are pressured to sexualize themselves and often throw each other under the bus, in the vicious competition that men dragged them into. Why don’t we just ignore men and encourage each other to get independent?

I never fell in love with a man and don’t want to ever get married. Why do women have to settle for less? Why don’t we support each other until men learn to value women?
I don’t want answers from happily married women. I know there are a few RELATIVELY decent men.

I think women can mentally get close to each other. I have considered relationships with lesbian and asexual women, or perhaps I can find other hetero women who don’t want men?
Will a lesbian give me a chance if I’m not into the sex?

I know I might not become a complete lesbian but maybe sex is overrated. Maybe we can put our sexual energy to something constructive and get excited about our accomplishments? Maybe we can have a ton of non-sexual fun? make each other laugh all the time. Have sensual messages?
I have had crushes on strong women that I admired. I think if you have a great connection with someone, your interest can go beyond just being friends.

[Albalida]

Originally Posted by Indiana

If you don't like it, don't put up with it. The only reason that men say that stuff in front of you is that so many women accept it. Speak up when men talk about women that way. Tell them their language is disrespectful and diminishing and that you don't like it. Remove your company if they continue to speak disrespectfully about women. Social punishment is a pretty effective tool for change.

These are all things that you can work to change. Stand up for other women. Don't participate in bitching or judging. Encourage your friends not to take bad treatment. Don't settle for less - believe in yourself and believe in the good guys that are out there. Don't favour men just for their external appearances or conventional 'attraction' factors like money or a flashy car. Don't buy into the idea that you have to dress up in a certain way to attract all men - good men like you just as much in a pair of jeans and a hoodie as in a sexy dress.
...
Here, you are prioritising the value of lesbians for one thing ('not a man') just as much as those guys you complain of are valuing you for one thing ('hot'). Don't get caught up in that trap.

I agree with all of the above, especially the bolded part. I understand being frustrated by the gender gap, but... Jillfisher, I hope you understand from this exactly why I am so offended by your premise.

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by elucidate

As a sensual masseuse though, the majority of clients who come in for a massage are married males over the age of thirty, or have girlfriends, and nearly all of them will ask for 'extras' (even while their wives are having a coffee a block away at a cafe, or at home expecting their first child), and they are mostly extremely fussy and only pick girls who are supermodel looking (which don't exist, but they still demand it.) Even then, they will find something to complain about.

Important to keep in mind that your sample in this study is not "men", but "men who come into a sensuous massage parlor, most of whom are looking for extras". You, yourself are not providing said extras but it seems these guys are coming here specifically in such a hope or at least in large part. Guys who are loyal to their wives and girlfriends would most likely not frequent this establishment and if they did it would be strictly for a strait massage without the exciting finish.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by MightySunTzu

Important to keep in mind that your sample in this study is not "men", but "men who come into a sensuous massage parlor, most of whom are looking for extras". You, yourself are not providing said extras but it seems these guys are coming here specifically in such a hope or at least in large part. Guys who are loyal to their wives and girlfriends would most likely not frequent this establishment and if they did it would be strictly for a strait massage without the exciting finish.

Yes true. There are most likely many men who would not frequent massage parlors and do this.

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by Jillfisher

It saddens me that women are pressured to sexualize themselves and often throw each other under the bus, in the vicious competition that men dragged them into. Why don’t we just ignore men and encourage each other to get independent?

While I agree with your first paragraph describing that men are mostly only interested in sex, I feel like this paragraph is putting the blame for your own emotions on the generic idea of "men" as a whole instead of recognizing that your emotions are your own issue to deal with.

I disagree that it is men who "dragged" women into sexualizing themselves. In reality, the only reason you are sexualizing yourself is because you have a desire for men's attention or a desire to compete with other women for men's attention. If you can go without as much attention, then simply stop wearing makeup. I guarantee you that 99.9% of men you encounter are not going to insult you for wearing more conservative clothing that covers your skin and for not wearing makeup. Hell, a lot of guys (myself included) can barely tell the difference when girls put on or take off makeup.

[rawxstasy]

Originally Posted by Curtis2011

I guarantee you that 99.9% of men you encounter are not going to insult you for wearing more conservative clothing that covers your skin and for not wearing makeup.

I think you are assuming she's dressing in revealing clothes, which I don't think is the case.

I think as Indiana mentioned this has more to do with the age bracket she's in. I've found to that as I've gotten older, men are still concerned about looks, but it's not the priority. ( I guess because they are now more mature ) I also think there are guys in her age range who are not total jerks but she may have to go outside her social circle/comfort zone to find them.

[BillyTheAdult]

Originally Posted by rawxstasy

I think as Indiana mentioned this has more to do with the age bracket she's in.

It could just as easily be said that the problem is women in this age bracket despite their claims to wanting the contrary simply don't even register men who aren't like this on their radar, which has been my experience. Everyone has a story with plenty of mind made evidence to back it all up.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by BillyTheAdult

It could just as easily be said that the problem is women in this age bracket despite their claims to wanting the contrary simply don't even register men who aren't like this on their radar, which has been my experience. Everyone has a story with plenty of mind made evidence to back it all up.

It's funny you say this.

I knew a fellow once who used to make loads of money in his job. He said that when he was rich he couldn't get a girl...and then when he lost his job, or for whatever reasons was no longer making any money, and was poor, all the women would come out of the woodwork and fancy him all of a sudden. It really messed with his head.

I think it's definitely true that many men who are not good looking according to the standard set by society, will do whatever they have to to reach high positions in the corporate world JUST so they are raking in the dough so they can finally get the women...a la Al Pacino in that movie Scarface, where he goes "First you get the money, then you get the power...THEN you get the women"!

Girls have been trained by their mothers to go for men with money. It's a security thing. People equate money with security. They rarely question that equation for the truth of it.

[BillyTheAdult]

Yes. I wasn't actually even thinking of money, but this is an excellent example too. And although it may be true the point is if you have problems (addressed to the OP not you Elucidate) that regardless of whether or not other people could be blamed for them, it is your job to take the bull by the horns and fix yourself, the world won't change for you. What you are doing is called playing victim and not only is it only effective only to draw other victims into your life, it doesn't feel very good.


When you expect the world to change to meet your expectations, it leads to disappointment. When you adjust your approach to effectively function within the framework of how the world is that is where you will find fulfillment. It can be a much longer process than we'd sometimes like to change deeply held perspectives, so start now.

[Criseyde]

Well, I empathize with your situation to an extent. When I was 18 and had just gotten to college, I became "friends" with a group of guys who behaved exactly as you've described. I also went to frat parties (puke) and was basically just all up in the wrong kind of crowd.

Fortunately, since every time one of these guys opened their mouths, I wanted to simultaneously cry, throw up, and nail their reproductive organs to a wall, this did not last long for me.

I found that once I stopped paying attention to those guys (and it's easy to pay attention to them, as they are by far the loudest!), I met a lot of guys who aren't like that. I guess I was lucky that I'd had some really close male friends in high school, and I already KNEW that all guys weren't like this. Otherwise I could definitely see myself deciding that they were... and that would have been bad, because no decent man is going to spend time with a woman who accuses him of being a jerk before he even opens his mouth.

I do think that some of the people posting are right, you can't blame the guys entirely, because if no girls bought into it, it wouldn't work. However, I have one thing to say about frat culture (and school party culture): alcohol. Lower the drinking age to 18, and the rate of date rape on college campuses will drop precipitously. I would put money on it.

Aaaaanyway!

It was at that time that I decided I wasn't going to suffer fools. I have a body, but I am not a body, and only people who saw that were worth my time. I'm not going to tell you that I made a million male friends and dated and lived happily ever after, because honestly, I didn't (but I'm only 22 ). Most of my friends were women, though I've had some male friends and a couple romantic interests. Either way, I haven't felt thoroughly objectified by the people I was letting into my space since I was 18-19, and that's because I stopped letting those people into my space.

Basically, I would rather have fewer sexual encounters than my friends, and NOT have to worry the next morning, "do you think he just likes me because I'm pretty?" (which I've heard from friends more than once...) I know that would kill me. So I don't do it.

I agree with everyone who said you are basically talking about doing the same thing to lesbians that you've experienced men doing to you, and that's not really okay. Just like the men who objectify you are ignoring/dismissing your emotional and intellectual side, you would be ignoring/dismissing a lesbian's sexuality. We don't do that to the people we love...

[JSB]

Part of it is maturity and part of it is testosterone levels. (Ever wonder why so many successful politicians and pwerful men are serial womanizers who cheat on their wives? The same thing that drives them to dominance, acheivement and success also gives them very strong libidos.)

Also, younger men aren't thinking of the future as much, so immediate sexual attraction is the driving factor in choosing a partner. As we get a little older, we start looking for someone who will make a good longer-term parnter and friend; looks and sexual attraction are still important, but they aren't the only factors.

Originally Posted by rawxstasy

I've found to that as I've gotten older, men are still concerned about looks, but it's not the priority. ( I guess because they are now more mature )

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by BillyTheAdult

It could just as easily be said that the problem is women in this age bracket despite their claims to wanting the contrary simply don't even register men who aren't like this on their radar, which has been my experience. Everyone has a story with plenty of mind made evidence to back it all up.

Billy, that was exactly my point. I said that there are good men out there, but that if she wasn't actively looking for them, she wasn't going to see them because at that age most attractive women are absolutely flooded with approaches from douchebags.

I had a perfectly wonderful boyfriend through my early 20s, so I didn't put any active effort into looking for nice guys. But if I had based my opinions of men solely on the number of douchebags and sleazes groping me in bars, drunkenly hitting on me and my girlfriends when we were out, older guys having a midlife crisis and trying to pick up a younger woman to affirm their attractiveness, young guys acting macho in front of their friends and so on – all of which I saw a lot of in the general bar and party scene that is more common in your early 20s – I probably would have had quite a skewed perspective of guys.

Fortunately I had a nice boyfriend (who had a cool group of friends too) so I had a balanced perspective. But if the OP makes an effort to actively look for great guys (they are simply harder to find! I met my boyfriend at a film festival, and I had to ask HIM out!) then she will probably change her perspective a bit.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

I do think that some of the people posting are right, you can't blame the guys entirely, because if no girls bought into it, it wouldn't work. However, I have one thing to say about frat culture (and school party culture): alcohol. Lower the drinking age to 18, and the rate of date rape on college campuses will drop precipitously. I would put money on it.

Sorry to derail for a second but can you explain this? You think if you lower the drinking age, date rape will decrease substantially? How come?

New Zealand dropped the drinking age from 20 to 18 here a little less than two decades ago and the rates of youth violence and harm have skyrocketed so badly in that time that we're actually strongly considering raising it again. It was, frankly, nothing less than disastrous.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Sorry to derail for a second but can you explain this? You think if you lower the drinking age, date rape will decrease substantially? How come?

New Zealand dropped the drinking age from 20 to 18 here a little less than two decades ago and the rates of youth violence and harm have skyrocketed so badly in that time that we're actually strongly considering raising it again. It was, frankly, nothing less than disastrous.

Gotta run, I'll make this super quick. Everyone here gets it anyway. I could have had any drug I wanted at age 15. The people who do want, get.

The thing about drinking is the fraternity culture here. 18 year olds get to college and want to enjoy their newfound "freedom" by getting smashed. But the 18 year olds can't buy their own alcohol, so the fraternities conveniently hold keggers every weekend. A lot of them are date rape central. Some frats won't even let guys in who aren't brothers (or who don't come with several girls) (or girls who aren't dressed "well" enough!), because the point of the party is to get a room full of drunk "hot" girls. The brothers control the alcohol and some of them also have other drugs like GHB.

This isn't every fraternity but almost every university with a Greek culture to speak of has a terribly sketchy one or two that operate(s) the way I've described.

[DayDream]

I experienced something similar when I was in my late teens/early twenties. I was beautiful and very developed for my age. Older men always treated me like a sex object. I even allowed myself to be used at times, but I never put all men into the "pig" category. I just refused to give up on love. I have a suggestion, try changing your attitude and views towards men. I don't know what your belief is on manifestation, but changing your thoughts can change your life. When I was in my early twenties I started praying/meditating almost everyday for one thing, my perfect mate. It took about 18 months, but when I met him I knew right away and here we are 12 years later very much in love and happy together. You need to be ok and happy with yourself and being alone. Put your intentions out there to the universe/God and be open to what comes your way. Start by changing your thoughts, be happy, live your life, have faith and patience, it will come!

Trying to be something you are not is never a good idea. From your post you do not sound like a lesbian. I would not suggest taking that route. If you need platonic girlfriends then find some, but do not pretend to be something you are not. That is not good for your personal development and it is definitely not fair to the other woman involved.

Good luck to you!

[Chris_1977]

Originally Posted by Jillfisher

Will a lesbian give me a chance if I’m not into the sex?

This very sentence tells me you are not a lesbian. What do have is probably the luxury problem of being too beautiful and therefore being hit on by the guys on the top of the totem pole. And this at a time in the lives of these guys when they are rather superficial. The guys who you might want to date may not dare to do so because you are too beautiful. I think you should attempt to give them some blatantly obvious hints that they will perceive as being very subtle that you are interested in them.

[Agota]

I agree with Daydream, it might be a good idea for you to take a look at Law of Attraction and intention-manifestation.

Also, I suggest you taking a look at the places you hang out. In case you spend a lot of time in bars and clubs, you probably won't find that many decent guys there, since most people go there to get laid. You'd probably be better off if you'd try to figure out where decent guys might hang out in your area.

Oh, and my suggestion is just to ignore douche bags..

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by JSB

... and part of it is testosterone levels. (Ever wonder why so many successful politicians and pwerful men are serial womanizers who cheat on their wives? The same thing that drives them to dominance, acheivement and success also gives them very strong libidos.)

I believe the correlation with womanizing here is more about being a douche than having a strong libido. You can have a high sex drive and still have good character... since regardless of how exciting sex is to a man he still has a choice in how integrously he will conduct himself.