Taking Debates Personally

[votoshka]

Now I'll admit, I'm a sensitive person and I can take things personally that aren't met personally. However, when I'm engaged in a debate with someone on some topic that isn't personal, I don't tend to get upset when the other person disagrees with me. It's a debate after all .

Well, today my friend was almost in tears over a debate we were having (her nephew was there as well). She accused me and her nephew of ganging up on her, and cut the debate off abruptly because she was so upset. The thing is, it was just something we disagreed on. It wasn't an "I'm right and you're wrong" thing, it was just something we don't agree on.

The topic was actually capital punishment, and started with a short article in the newspaper about a paedophile. She basically said that all paedophiles and rapists should get executed! Her nephew and me were arguing against capital punishment. Obviously, it didn't occur to me that she'd get deeply upset because I refused to agree that all paedophiles and rapists should automatically get killed! I also didn't feel that I was "ganging up" on her with her nephew. It just so happened that he and I shared a similar viewpoint (although I admitted that if someone interfered with my daughter, I'd personally want to eviscerate him!)

Anyway, afterwards it was sort of awkward because she'd become so upset over this. I really wasn't sure what to say. I apologised for upsetting her and just said I was trying to give an alternate viewpoint.

I believe she felt that I was attacking her when I disagreed with her viewpoint, and I suppose it was sort of unfortunate that it was a three person debate, and we both disagreed with her (it's actually the second time she's been upset because her nephew and I agreed on something she disagreed with and she felt "ganged up" on... in that instance I wish my husband had been present because I know he would have agreed with her, and then at least it would have been "equal"!)

So how should I have dealt with this? It seemed a reasonable debate until she blew up and got upset out of all proportion, and I was a little thrown by her reaction.

Was I actually insensitive in this case, or was her reaction over the top?

As I said, I'm sensitive, and if someone says something personal to me that I can take badly, I'll be upset by it. I get sensitive about LOTS of things. But I never get sensitive about a neutral debate unless it becomes a personal attack (which this one certainly never did). Oddly, my friend seems a lot LESS sensitive than me about many, many things... and is in many ways a lot tougher than me. I just wonder if she sees debates in a different way to me? I just wonder how other people would react in this situation!

[Albalida]

Yes, over the top, but maybe because there was some pressure at the bottom. Maybe she has hangups about being told that she's wrong meaning that she's a bad person. Or she has an unhealthy worldview of debates being a zero-sum game. Or she's had a bad week and really needed a "win". Or maybe she's jealous of how close you and your nephew are. Or insecure about being one-upped by someone younger. It might even be that she has some history of being molested, and feels that to argue for a criminal's life invalidates that pain and anger, and excuses them from what she feels should be the full consequence?

All of the above would be bad form to bring into a discussion with a friend, with no explanation and all accusation -- a discussion that's meant to be based on mutual respect for personal opinions, honesty, and good faith-- but it happens.

[Lifeisamazing]

I generally try to avoid debating with people I don't know closely. But how else do you find out if someone can tolerate debating or not if you don't try? So at the end of the day, you have to try it at some point. I guess from trial and error, you can now realize that this topic (or perhaps debating in general) makes her emotional.

Is being sensitive physiological, psychological or both? I kinda want to think that it's mostly psychological and can be changed with a mindset shift and practice.

[elucidate]

I have a friend who is similar to what you describe and our relationship has been fraught with moments like this. It can be a real pain in the arse, and at times I almost have to bite my tongue, because I feel like I can't just be me without upsetting her. What's funny about her is that she can be really rough and insensitive towards her kids, but expects everyone to be sensitive at all times to her.

I realize that it's not really my responsability when she takes things so personally, and she admits to being this way. I have had times when I take things too personally as well, and it usually is a reflection of how I am feeling at the time...so, if I am feeling a bit fragile or forlorn or something, I am more likely to be too sensitive about stuff...and I hate it when it happens.

It's funny with her too, as she can take all sorts of things too personally, but when it comes to debates and disagreeing with me, she has no trouble asserting her disagreement and we seem to have relative harmony in that area. If I don't tell her that she looks great when she hints that she needs to be told that...and don't lie to tell her what she wants to hear though, she'll crack it at me. Same goes for little jokes that aren't meant to harm or upset, and she can get quite agro expressing her displeasure at my comment...and then later admit that she is taking it too personally.

The funny thing is, she is almost totally self-centred when it happens, and will send me obscure random text messages, telling me I smell...just out of the blue?

Taking things personally is a very self centred thing to do, and getting upset over being disagreed with, to me, reveals the narcisissm of a person.

It did take me a while, when I was in my late teens, before I was able to get past feeling upset when someone would disagree with me, and really get that things are more interesting when people don't agree with you because you get to see the issue from a different perspective. You aren't obliged to change your thinking, but if it makes more sense you can adopt a new way of viewing the issue...which has a certain freedom to it that I enjoy.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by votoshka

Was I actually insensitive in this case, or was her reaction over the top?

It's nice to know you even ask this question, rather than asking something like, "Why was her reaction so over the top?"

Of course, we can't know the answer, because we're only hearing your description of what happened, and there may very well be some things you did in the conversation that you weren't consciously aware of that were crazy-making. (I would say the chances of that are pretty good, if she cried.) Or she might have been triggered into some old gunky pain that has zero to do with anything you or your nephew said.

If you care about her and your relationship, I think it may be very helpful to talk to her about this later, when you're alone with her and you're both calm, from a perspective of 100% responsibility and how concerned you are that you inadvertently pushed a button, and would like to know consciously what happened there so you don't risk accidentally doing something that hurts her again that you didn't realize you were doing.

Not "Why did you go so batshit the other day?" but "Can we explore what happened the other day? The last thing I'd ever want to do is hurt or frustrate you, and it's important to me to know how I was showing up for you so that we can both fully express opinions and feel supported by each other, rather than attacked."

If I were you, before having that conversation, I'd look at the event from a couple of other perspectives (like through her eyes, and floating 50 feet above the entire scene) and see what kind of learnings are available from those other perspectives, from which it would make sense that she reacted the way she did.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by Angela

It's nice to know you even ask this question, rather than asking something like, "Why was her reaction so over the top?"

Of course, we can't know the answer, because we're only hearing your description of what happened, and there may very well be some things you did in the conversation that you weren't consciously aware of that were crazy-making. (I would say the chances of that are pretty good, if she cried.) Or she might have been triggered into some old gunky pain that has zero to do with anything you or your nephew said.

I think the reason I was so mystified, is that in this particular case there was really nothing said in the conversation that should have elicited such a response. As it was I was only half in the convo as I was reading the newspaper at the time.

I think I was just interjecting occasionally that capital punishment is a slippery slope and isn't really the answer.

However, it was an issue she was REALLY worked up about, so maybe she just wanted validation on her point of view, and when she didn't get it she felt upset? It is true that she was a lot more worked up than her nephew or I were, because she was extremely vehement in her assertions. So maybe in this instance, we should have just dropped it, because evidently it was a triggering conversation.

I think I also just have to realise that where I enjoy a good debate (even a heated one) some people just don't and it's best not to engage in them! Although it's sometimes hard NOT to say something when someone comes out with a very strong statement that you disagree with .

I think I've just reached the conclusion that she's not the sort of person you can have a good debate with. We can have a great discussion about stuff when we both agree, but when there's disagreement it's best to just avoid all discussion of it (I think it's a pity in a way, as I think a good debate is quite fun and intellectually stimulating, and it gives you a window into another perspective)!

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by votoshka

I think I've just reached the conclusion that she's not the sort of person you can have a good debate with. We can have a great discussion about stuff when we both agree, but when there's disagreement it's best to just avoid all discussion of it (I think it's a pity in a way, as I think a good debate is quite fun and intellectually stimulating, and it gives you a window into another perspective)!

Hi Votoshka,

It might be true that any debate on any topic will push her over the edge, it may have been this particular issue, or she may have been hair trigger sensitive on this day for whatever reason. Instead of limiting your friendship and losing her as a potential debate opponent which is something you enjoy, maybe it would be worth talking with her about it and attempting to pinpoint what specifically caused her to have such a strong reaction in this particular instance. It would be a shame to have to quench yourself in every situation where you disagreed with her (forcing you to one extent or another to walk on eggshells) and i expect this would diminish the quality of your friendship.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by votoshka

I think I've just reached the conclusion that she's not the sort of person you can have a good debate with. We can have a great discussion about stuff when we both agree, but when there's disagreement it's best to just avoid all discussion of it (I think it's a pity in a way, as I think a good debate is quite fun and intellectually stimulating, and it gives you a window into another perspective)!

Well, recognizing that she's not the sort of person you can have a good debate with and that it's best to avoid all discussion on anything you disagree on could be somewhat helpful for you, though pretty limiting -- in my view, the most profound and transformational learnings are ones that are learned in a perspective of 100% responsibility and being at cause. That is: learnings that are positively stated (not a not), about you (not about her), and future-oriented, so they'll be there as a positive resource for freedom, choice and opportunity going forward.

What strikes me in what you've written here is: how do you know a good debate was what she wanted? My experience is that when someone is really emotionally worked up about an issue, debate is not their purpose.

Are you willing to understand her model of the world? Are you willing to be at cause in the matter of the kind of relationship you'd like to have with this friend?

I suspect that this may be a Baby in the Backseat episode -- one in which you are missing a piece of information that, if you knew it, would make all the difference.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, recognizing that she's not the sort of person you can have a good debate with and that it's best to avoid all discussion on anything you disagree on could be somewhat helpful for you, though pretty limiting -- in my view, the most profound and transformational learnings are ones that are learned in a perspective of 100% responsibility and being at cause. That is: learnings that are positively stated (not a not), about you (not about her), and future-oriented, so they'll be there as a positive resource for freedom, choice and opportunity going forward.

What strikes me in what you've written here is: how do you know a good debate was what she wanted? My experience is that when someone is really emotionally worked up about an issue, debate is not their purpose.

Are you willing to understand her model of the world? Are you willing to be at cause in the matter of the kind of relationship you'd like to have with this friend?

I suspect that this may be a Baby in the Backseat episode -- one in which you are missing a piece of information that, if you knew it, would make all the difference.

Well yes, in this instance I don't think she wanted a debate at all. She wanted to put her opinion out there and not hear another side of it (obviously it's something she feels strongly about). In fact, I think she'd have been happy if we both simply agreed with her and shut up. However, I would find it very difficult to simply nod my head and say something like, "yes, you are right, all rapists and paedophiles should be executed" (which is what she would have liked to hear), instead of getting into the reasons why I disagree.

I do think, though, that it would have been more politic had I just not entered the conversation in the first place. At the time, though, she seemed more worked up about the topic, and not the fact that she was being disagreed with (if that makes sense).

[Angela]

I wasn't suggesting that you should agree with her opinion. But it sounds to me like perhaps she didn't just want to put her opinion out there and have people agree with it -- it sounds to me like she was expressing a reaction of old pain - something very personal WAS going on for her in that moment.

Sometimes, I think, when people are having a spike of pain like that, they just need to know they're ok.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by Angela

I wasn't suggesting that you should agree with her opinion. But it sounds to me like perhaps she didn't just want to put her opinion out there and have people agree with it -- it sounds to me like she was expressing a reaction of old pain - something very personal WAS going on for her in that moment.

Sometimes, I think, when people are having a spike of pain like that, they just need to know they're ok.

Oh yes, you are right about that! I think in retrospect (well in retrospective retrospect as I've already been over it a few times in my mind) I simply needed to empathise with her about the way she felt.

We had another brief discussion on the phone about it and I basically said I understand the way she feels, and that her opinion is a valid one whether I agree with it or not. I wasn't going to agree with her, but I was able to take a slightly more empathetic stance that didn't actively disagree with her point of view.

She has a lot of personal and health issues, so I try and be mindful of the stress she's under. I sometimes let things go that under other circumstances I wouldn't, because I am able to put myself in a position to understand her enough to know that it's sometimes more important to be kind than to be right!